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On July 27 2011 11:50 Tossup wrote:
Say you hold the aggression off. I still feel behind as it takes so long for you to kill all the roaches and lings. It is able to buy enough time for the zerg to get a third and begin to saturate it. What is the follow up after they have done their damage with their lings and roaches?
If you went a stargate expand and he suicided all his stuff on your defense, just go and take out the third with your 2 voidrays.
If you retained all of your sentries or most of them I would add a few more gates and pressure that third.
If you had already made either a robotics or twilight before the attack hit, I'd add an immortal and pressure or go for DTs and secure a third of my own.
This is all assuming you defended really well against his attack and much of his army is obliterated AND he droned hard behind it so there is not much there to fight for him.
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ended 1750ish masters season 2 protoss
i expand on every map forge/nexus/gate/cannon/stargate right when cyber done....i do this because 3gate expos in terms of long term macro games lead to basically protoss being down 40-50 food where u see its like 130-140 food vs a zerg maxed out 200 if no contact is made(which is just ridiculous btw, if some dont believe me just watch some legit replays of PvZ matches on metapolis/xel other maps from MC and other protoss pros
scouting the roach ling all in is all about being tricky with scouting probe and just enemy messing up, honestly it is VERY VERY hard to scout it if zerg player is on his game..impossible in the near future when players are 100% comfortable with first few minutes of the game
also when u scout it u arent sure rly how many lings are coming out and how many roaches which is a bummer, but whether u defend it or not all depends on how many cannons u make(this is on maps where its harder to expand like xel naga/meta and whether the cannons are at the front of nexus or not(so where u build your cannons/buildings)..if u build enough cannons/keep up with making those voids, and have 1 sentry ready for some zerglin run by, u should be fine if u play PERFECT(anything less than that u could be in deep trouble)
every single game is different due to the timings(what positions u ply at) and zerg's unit composition
this is just a note on my experience but i never do the 3 gate expand because PvZ atm is pretty f***** atm in my opinion so i told u guys what i use, and if done right u can at least get to my level(which isnt that impressive or bad)
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harry, how can you feel safe to cannon expo on every map? I only feel safe doing it if there is some kind of wall off I can do with 3 or so buildings
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On July 28 2011 04:51 Tossup wrote:
harry, how can you feel safe to cannon expo on every map? I only feel safe doing it if there is some kind of wall off I can do with 3 or so buildings
I have a similar playstyle to harry I guess.
The answer is that I don't feel safe doing it; its just a less bad option. Toss has no good options in PvZ right now, and if we try to 3 gate expand its basically an auto-loss if the zerg goes for the roach/ling bust.
Getting that nexus up first SOMETIMES gives you the economy to deal with zerg effectively, but it still usually ends up as a loss.
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Well... you have to scout.
I usually poke with a probe or research halluc.
If you see a lot of roach just throw down 2 more cannons ( 40 game sec) assuming you have your forge down, if you see it on his natural you will be fine in 99% unless it is Slug Pits. You can kite with stalks to slow down his push
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On July 28 2011 05:09 Corsica wrote:
Well... you have to scout.
I usually poke with a probe or research halluc.
If you see a lot of roach just throw down 2 more cannons ( 40 game sec) assuming you have your forge down, if you see it on his natural you will be fine in 99% unless it is Slug Pits. You can kite with stalks to slow down his push
never try to do this.
He will NEVER just attack with roaches... lings will accompany that. And losing 2-3 stalkers to a ling surround early game is an instant loss.
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On July 28 2011 05:04 Horst wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 04:51 Tossup wrote:
harry, how can you feel safe to cannon expo on every map? I only feel safe doing it if there is some kind of wall off I can do with 3 or so buildings
I have a similar playstyle to harry I guess. The answer is that I don't feel safe doing it; its just a less bad option. Toss has no good options in PvZ right now, and if we try to 3 gate expand its basically an auto-loss if the zerg goes for the roach/ling bust. Getting that nexus up first SOMETIMES gives you the economy to deal with zerg effectively, but it still usually ends up as a loss.
You dont have to battle economy,zerg has a trade off make drones or make army , as a toss you have to use it, by this i mean force them to make more attaking units and have better economy.
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On July 28 2011 05:14 Horst wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:09 Corsica wrote:
Well... you have to scout.
I usually poke with a probe or research halluc.
If you see a lot of roach just throw down 2 more cannons ( 40 game sec) assuming you have your forge down, if you see it on his natural you will be fine in 99% unless it is Slug Pits. You can kite with stalks to slow down his push never try to do this. He will NEVER just attack with roaches... lings will accompany that. And losing 2-3 stalkers to a ling surround early game is an instant loss.
Scouting>All
If its is close spots metal than you can do it from your ramp.
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On July 28 2011 05:23 Corsica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:04 Horst wrote:On July 28 2011 04:51 Tossup wrote:
harry, how can you feel safe to cannon expo on every map? I only feel safe doing it if there is some kind of wall off I can do with 3 or so buildings
I have a similar playstyle to harry I guess. The answer is that I don't feel safe doing it; its just a less bad option. Toss has no good options in PvZ right now, and if we try to 3 gate expand its basically an auto-loss if the zerg goes for the roach/ling bust. Getting that nexus up first SOMETIMES gives you the economy to deal with zerg effectively, but it still usually ends up as a loss. You dont have to battle economy,zerg has a trade off make drones or make army , as a toss you have to use it, by this i mean force them to make more attaking units and have better economy.
to force a zerg to make units often means you lose your entire army to those units, and then have nothing to defend.
If you try to pressure off a 3 gate expand, a roach/ling all-in will kill you.
if you try to pressure before a 3 gate expand, it doesn't matter how many units you force him to make, because he can make drones so much faster than you can make probes, and your expo is very late.
the only viable way to play PvZ is to either do a 1-base all-in, or forge first or 1 gate FE. You need your expansion up and defended as soon as possible to have a chance.
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On July 28 2011 05:24 Corsica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:14 Horst wrote:On July 28 2011 05:09 Corsica wrote:
Well... you have to scout.
I usually poke with a probe or research halluc.
If you see a lot of roach just throw down 2 more cannons ( 40 game sec) assuming you have your forge down, if you see it on his natural you will be fine in 99% unless it is Slug Pits. You can kite with stalks to slow down his push never try to do this. He will NEVER just attack with roaches... lings will accompany that. And losing 2-3 stalkers to a ling surround early game is an instant loss. Scouting>All If its is close spots metal than you can do it from your ramp.
Good luck scouting a competent zerg who went speed first. You can't scout him until you get observers or hallucinations, because he will have the towers with lings, and anything you send out will be spotted and killed. Lings >>> all toss until colossus or templar.
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On July 28 2011 05:32 Horst wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:23 Corsica wrote:On July 28 2011 05:04 Horst wrote:On July 28 2011 04:51 Tossup wrote:
harry, how can you feel safe to cannon expo on every map? I only feel safe doing it if there is some kind of wall off I can do with 3 or so buildings
I have a similar playstyle to harry I guess. The answer is that I don't feel safe doing it; its just a less bad option. Toss has no good options in PvZ right now, and if we try to 3 gate expand its basically an auto-loss if the zerg goes for the roach/ling bust. Getting that nexus up first SOMETIMES gives you the economy to deal with zerg effectively, but it still usually ends up as a loss. You dont have to battle economy,zerg has a trade off make drones or make army , as a toss you have to use it, by this i mean force them to make more attaking units and have better economy. to force a zerg to make units often means you lose your entire army to those units, and then have nothing to defend. If you try to pressure off a 3 gate expand, a roach/ling all-in will kill you. if you try to pressure before a 3 gate expand, it doesn't matter how many units you force him to make, because he can make drones so much faster than you can make probes, and your expo is very late. the only viable way to play PvZ is to either do a 1-base all-in, or forge first or 1 gate FE. You need your expansion up and defended as soon as possible to have a chance.
I dont like forge fe tbh, i prefer to go 3 gate exp where it is viable and then quickly go blink to return map control. Good luck with that using forge fe.
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doing a roach ling all in is so easy....
you HAVE to have PERFECT forcefields to hold it. 3 gate expand in PvZ is slowly fading out, you have to forge FE or open DT/stargate expand.
all zerg has to do is save larva, if they think u r expanding and they dont see much, pump mass lings and roaches, if they see cannons and a good wall off, they can just pump 20 drones and be wayyyy ahead.
PvZ is so frustrating right now.
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Canada13431 Posts
On August 07 2011 00:24 Gattaca.usa wrote:
doing a roach ling all in is so easy....
you HAVE to have PERFECT forcefields to hold it. 3 gate expand in PvZ is slowly fading out, you have to forge FE or open DT/stargate expand.
all zerg has to do is save larva, if they think u r expanding and they dont see much, pump mass lings and roaches, if they see cannons and a good wall off, they can just pump 20 drones and be wayyyy ahead.
PvZ is so frustrating right now.
No I 3 gate expo all the time. I lost to roach ling yesterday for the first time in about 2 months. Just dont let the lings surround the sentries and fight back by the cannons/wall.
Push out with 6 sentries one zealot, if you see roaches and no spines back off make another cannon and warp stalkers while retreating with the sentries and zealot. Off creep the roaches wont catch you and the lings won't be on the way yet since they arent made until after the roache.s
Note that this applies to smaller maps. On big ones zealot sentry poke insta loses to the roach ling thing.
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EPT
