EPT[D] Roach ling all in/agression, how does P expo? - Page 17
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On May 31 2011 11:13 FreshVegetables wrote: I think its fucking retarded how zerg can make only two units and win the game. I just lost twice on the ladder against this bullshit. Hell, my 6 gate even had time to kick in, and I had 2 cannon just to be safe from this shit. Still he breaks me. I opened up 3 gate btw. I had halucination and scouted him just to see that i'm about to die. Something needs to be done about current zerg, feels like Protoss vs Zerg and maps where you can't forge FE is an uphill battle and I have flip a coin many times just to break even. 80% of the games I am forced play from behind. You would think that you'd be ahead economically if zergs does this and you survive, but zergs can just pump out drones at a ridiculous rate, its not even funny. Also, I dont wanna QQ about balance or anything since I am sure there is a way to counter this, but it's just frustrating as hell when zerg can do a push thats so easy to execute and win games by just doing it. ps. i am 1300 masters, playing alot of gm's etc. TT1 foretold this a while back, i believe right after infestor buff at the height of the zerg QQ. I think maybe if someone reputable like whitera started calling everyone that beats him bad and saying its impossible for protoss things might get better for you lol I don't have a big problem with losing some games to this kind of play, but I can't help but wonder if there would be some more interesting protoss plays to pre-empt it if they had kept to the longer warpgate research with shorter pre-warpgate unit build times. It might have kept the zerg metagame a little more honest - instead of 50 minerals of lings and only drones up until the time your warren gets finished. This as well. I was really looking forward to what kind of aggression builds would pop up given rush distances are more reasonable now. I really cant think of a good pressure build that doesnt either put you further behind or cause you to lose the game outright. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + So Tyler appeared to hold this roach-ling build vs Idra on Xel Naga with just 3 gates and no sim city to speak of. Idra's mistake? Or something Tyler did well? I'm not good enough to work out why Tyler didn't just die like I would with only 3 gates in that situation... | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On May 31 2011 22:16 marvellosity wrote: NASL spoiler: + Show Spoiler + So Tyler appeared to hold this roach-ling build vs Idra on Xel Naga with just 3 gates and no sim city to speak of. Idra's mistake? Or something Tyler did well? I'm not good enough to work out why Tyler didn't just die like I would with only 3 gates in that situation... Some insight from a player better then me would also be appreciated from my perspective. | ||
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just_godlike
United Kingdom27 Posts
A game between Idra and TT1. Someone please let me know what TT1 could have done? | ||
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
On May 31 2011 11:13 FreshVegetables wrote: I think its fucking retarded how zerg can make only two units and win the game. I just lost twice on the ladder against this bullshit. Hell, my 6 gate even had time to kick in, and I had 2 cannon just to be safe from this shit. Still he breaks me. I opened up 3 gate btw. I had halucination and scouted him just to see that i'm about to die. Something needs to be done about current zerg, feels like Protoss vs Zerg and maps where you can't forge FE is an uphill battle and I have flip a coin many times just to break even. 80% of the games I am forced play from behind. You would think that you'd be ahead economically if zergs does this and you survive, but zergs can just pump out drones at a ridiculous rate, its not even funny. Also, I dont wanna QQ about balance or anything since I am sure there is a way to counter this, but it's just frustrating as hell when zerg can do a push thats so easy to execute and win games by just doing it. ps. i am 1300 masters, playing alot of gm's etc. User was warned for this post Actually, if you hold this off, the Zerg won't have an army while you likely have a pretty decent one, your extra Gateways should be done (or at the very least started), and his economy will be approximately even to yours, if not worse. You can just go over there, drop a proxy Pylon, and win. The problem most people have comes in just holding the all in to begin with. The answer really is to drop a cannon or two and have great Force Fields or just DO A DIFFERENT BUILD. But if you're really good, you don't even need cannons sometimes as having REALLY GOOD Force Fields will save you anyway. The problem is, VERY FEW people are THAT good with Force Fields, even at the pro level (hence the domination in the last GSL finals). | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
On June 04 2011 20:31 just_godlike wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbDEQYNdAx8&feature=feedlik A game between Idra and TT1. Someone please let me know what TT1 could have done? 1) Get a Forge, don't know why he skipped that. When he scouted all the units he could have build a Cannon and it would finish about in time 2) Scout somehow. Either hallucination or a quicker Robo. He was playing 100% in the dark. 3) Better forcefield placement or army positioning. There is no excuse to let so many Lings through. If you are not confident, position yourself at your ramp vs the Lings, then move out again vs the Roaches. I have been experimenting with 2 Gate Robo and it actually doesn't sacrifice that many Sentries. Basically you sacrifice one early for the Robo since it's 50/100 more expensive than gateway but after that you can chrono some out quite quickly from dual gate. The quick Observer is extremely useful as it will let you know if Roaches are coming, generally just in time. If not, you can see if he has a 3rd or whatever else he's doing. It helps greatly in deciding your tech path. Same holds for Hallucination, but that doesn't help vs a rush at all so it's a lot more risky. If you see Roaches coming, you can chrono out an Immortal which absolutely destroys Roaches, especially early on. It 3-shots Roaches, while Roaches need to hit the Immortal 10 + 13 = 23 times. One weak point of robo is it doesn't really help much vs a pure ling all-in, but those are pretty pathetic anyway and can be easily held with some OK Force Fields. IdrA did the same to Tyler in NASL and Tyler held it off easily; though it seemed IdrA used fewer Lings there. Force Fields by Tyler were much better though, he also had no Forge. | ||
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Grend
1600 Posts
 Does not look unbeatable though, but it will probably be pretty frustrating until the pro`s figure out some good respones. | ||
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
*hint, using building to wall of the side of the nexus closes to the main, put units behind it, and then you only have to forcefield a small area. | ||
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just_godlike
United Kingdom27 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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Smoodish
United States95 Posts
for those who might question my credibility I know because im a high 1300+ masters. Usually i hold this off with this (i've also seen MC hold it off like this i think), or with a high sentry count and FF really good, while warping in stalkers. Try to think about ur sim city in ur natural expansion. It'll help out tons with ur Force fielding. Also, try to cut off the army, while sandwiching/trapping 3 or so roaches to kill. | ||
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-213859.jpg) If he doesn't go roach/ling all in then get robo facility and bay up and get collosi asap. Obviously switch over to blink stalkers / high templars if he goes mutas instead of hydras. | ||
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just_godlike
United Kingdom27 Posts
On June 09 2011 11:54 KingofGods wrote: 1 gate expo into 3 gate stargate is the way to go If he doesn't go roach/ling all in then get robo facility and bay up and get collosi asap. Obviously switch over to blink stalkers / high templars if he goes mutas instead of hydras. After watching the first 10mins of the replay I have to ask: What division are you in? Both you and your opponent did so many mistakes/stupid decisions, its just unbelievable. | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
On June 12 2011 02:41 just_godlike wrote: After watching the first 10mins of the replay I have to ask: What division are you in? Both you and your opponent did so many mistakes/stupid decisions, its just unbelievable. Your argument would be lot more convincing with some examples of 'mistakes' of 'stupid decisions'. Like this is seems like unnecessary bashing To answer your question, using sc2ranks I think he's 1220 Diamond. | ||
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just_godlike
United Kingdom27 Posts
On June 12 2011 02:55 dani` wrote: Your argument would be lot more convincing with some examples of 'mistakes' of 'stupid decisions'. Like this is seems like unnecessary bashing To answer your question, using sc2ranks I think he's 1220 Diamond. Examples: the zealot was not on hold position so lings got in (zealot walloff) then he FF-ed the ramp for no apparent reason (behind the lings so they couldnt go back lol) then he almost lost his sentry for no apparent reason (tried to kill 4 lings with 1 sentry alone) his opponent waited like 30sec in front of his base giving him enough time to get a vray out his opponent just ran the lings around in his base without doing anything with them (except almost getting the sentry cuz of lack of focus from the P) when his opponent allined him, he focused a gateway and left it alive, then focused the nexus, left it alive and then when his roaches were almost dead he tried to run up the ramp instead of killing workers | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
If you want to complain about people reacting to your 6 sentries and 3 gateways then don't bloody leave 6 sentries at your wall. If Terran did a 3rax all in by building 3 barracks as a wall and 18 marines directly behind it, how would you address him if he complained about how easy it is to scout it? | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
The nexus goes down at around 5:40, then a pylon + warp-ins + a forge. The cannons finish at around 8. | ||
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nick00bot
326 Posts
yeah sorry protosses but 3 gate expands with pure sentry just isn't as viable as it used to be, and because you NEED cannons to hold this off i would even venture to say that the build is defunct now . just look at players like kiwikaki, who've started doing 4 gate expands, or alicia that makes a single voidray while expanding and a. scares the zerg into a defensive position b. has a safety net againstroach ling agression (remember alicia was one of the first players to get thoughroly stomped by it). essentially, if your not greedy you can hold this off pretty easily, and its a good time to mass up units anyways since zerg's third is just around the corner | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On June 12 2011 23:50 nick00bot wrote: void ray expand anyone? one of the biggest problems with sc2 is that when the metagame shifts people start crying when they use their same old builds that others havee adapted to beat. yeah sorry protosses but 3 gate expands with pure sentry just isn't as viable as it used to be, and because you NEED cannons to hold this off i would even venture to say that the build is defunct now . just look at players like kiwikaki, who've started doing 4 gate expands, or alicia that makes a single voidray while expanding and a. scares the zerg into a defensive position b. has a safety net againstroach ling agression (remember alicia was one of the first players to get thoughroly stomped by it). essentially, if your not greedy you can hold this off pretty easily, and its a good time to mass up units anyways since zerg's third is just around the corner Lol I hold roach ling all ins with around 6 sentries (only 2 gates iirc) with 2 cannons. The only thing I'm worried about is that I'm kinda doing it blind, but I use the 2 zealot trick to find out what I need to do. | ||
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