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[D] Roach ling all in/agression, how does P expo? - Page 17

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
May 31 2011 03:52 GMT
#321
I don't have a big problem with losing some games to this kind of play, but I can't help but wonder if there would be some more interesting protoss plays to pre-empt it if they had kept to the longer warpgate research with shorter pre-warpgate unit build times. It might have kept the zerg metagame a little more honest - instead of 50 minerals of lings and only drones up until the time your warren gets finished.
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-31 04:40:32
May 31 2011 04:34 GMT
#322
On May 31 2011 11:13 FreshVegetables wrote:
I think its fucking retarded how zerg can make only two units and win the game. I just lost twice on the ladder against this bullshit. Hell, my 6 gate even had time to kick in, and I had 2 cannon just to be safe from this shit. Still he breaks me. I opened up 3 gate btw. I had halucination and scouted him just to see that i'm about to die.

Something needs to be done about current zerg, feels like Protoss vs Zerg and maps where you can't forge FE is an uphill battle and I have flip a coin many times just to break even. 80% of the games I am forced play from behind. You would think that you'd be ahead economically if zergs does this and you survive, but zergs can just pump out drones at a ridiculous rate, its not even funny.

Also, I dont wanna QQ about balance or anything since I am sure there is a way to counter this, but it's just frustrating as hell when zerg can do a push thats so easy to execute and win games by just doing it.

ps. i am 1300 masters, playing alot of gm's etc.

TT1 foretold this a while back, i believe right after infestor buff at the height of the zerg QQ. I think maybe if someone reputable like whitera started calling everyone that beats him bad and saying its impossible for protoss things might get better for you lol

I don't have a big problem with losing some games to this kind of play, but I can't help but wonder if there would be some more interesting protoss plays to pre-empt it if they had kept to the longer warpgate research with shorter pre-warpgate unit build times. It might have kept the zerg metagame a little more honest - instead of 50 minerals of lings and only drones up until the time your warren gets finished.


This as well. I was really looking forward to what kind of aggression builds would pop up given rush distances are more reasonable now. I really cant think of a good pressure build that doesnt either put you further behind or cause you to lose the game outright.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
May 31 2011 13:16 GMT
#323
NASL spoiler:

+ Show Spoiler +
So Tyler appeared to hold this roach-ling build vs Idra on Xel Naga with just 3 gates and no sim city to speak of. Idra's mistake? Or something Tyler did well? I'm not good enough to work out why Tyler didn't just die like I would with only 3 gates in that situation...
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
May 31 2011 15:28 GMT
#324
On May 31 2011 22:16 marvellosity wrote:
NASL spoiler:

+ Show Spoiler +
So Tyler appeared to hold this roach-ling build vs Idra on Xel Naga with just 3 gates and no sim city to speak of. Idra's mistake? Or something Tyler did well? I'm not good enough to work out why Tyler didn't just die like I would with only 3 gates in that situation...


Some insight from a player better then me would also be appreciated from my perspective.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
just_godlike
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom27 Posts
June 04 2011 11:31 GMT
#325


A game between Idra and TT1. Someone please let me know what TT1 could have done?
RyLai
Profile Joined May 2011
United States477 Posts
June 08 2011 09:11 GMT
#326
On May 31 2011 11:13 FreshVegetables wrote:
I think its fucking retarded how zerg can make only two units and win the game. I just lost twice on the ladder against this bullshit. Hell, my 6 gate even had time to kick in, and I had 2 cannon just to be safe from this shit. Still he breaks me. I opened up 3 gate btw. I had halucination and scouted him just to see that i'm about to die.

Something needs to be done about current zerg, feels like Protoss vs Zerg and maps where you can't forge FE is an uphill battle and I have flip a coin many times just to break even. 80% of the games I am forced play from behind. You would think that you'd be ahead economically if zergs does this and you survive, but zergs can just pump out drones at a ridiculous rate, its not even funny.

Also, I dont wanna QQ about balance or anything since I am sure there is a way to counter this, but it's just frustrating as hell when zerg can do a push thats so easy to execute and win games by just doing it.

ps. i am 1300 masters, playing alot of gm's etc.

User was warned for this post


Actually, if you hold this off, the Zerg won't have an army while you likely have a pretty decent one, your extra Gateways should be done (or at the very least started), and his economy will be approximately even to yours, if not worse. You can just go over there, drop a proxy Pylon, and win. The problem most people have comes in just holding the all in to begin with. The answer really is to drop a cannon or two and have great Force Fields or just DO A DIFFERENT BUILD. But if you're really good, you don't even need cannons sometimes as having REALLY GOOD Force Fields will save you anyway. The problem is, VERY FEW people are THAT good with Force Fields, even at the pro level (hence the domination in the last GSL finals).
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-08 09:40:58
June 08 2011 09:25 GMT
#327
On June 04 2011 20:31 just_godlike wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbDEQYNdAx8&feature=feedlik

A game between Idra and TT1. Someone please let me know what TT1 could have done?

1) Get a Forge, don't know why he skipped that. When he scouted all the units he could have build a Cannon and it would finish about in time
2) Scout somehow. Either hallucination or a quicker Robo. He was playing 100% in the dark.
3) Better forcefield placement or army positioning. There is no excuse to let so many Lings through. If you are not confident, position yourself at your ramp vs the Lings, then move out again vs the Roaches.

I have been experimenting with 2 Gate Robo and it actually doesn't sacrifice that many Sentries. Basically you sacrifice one early for the Robo since it's 50/100 more expensive than gateway but after that you can chrono some out quite quickly from dual gate. The quick Observer is extremely useful as it will let you know if Roaches are coming, generally just in time. If not, you can see if he has a 3rd or whatever else he's doing. It helps greatly in deciding your tech path. Same holds for Hallucination, but that doesn't help vs a rush at all so it's a lot more risky.

If you see Roaches coming, you can chrono out an Immortal which absolutely destroys Roaches, especially early on. It 3-shots Roaches, while Roaches need to hit the Immortal 10 + 13 = 23 times.

One weak point of robo is it doesn't really help much vs a pure ling all-in, but those are pretty pathetic anyway and can be easily held with some OK Force Fields.

IdrA did the same to Tyler in NASL and Tyler held it off easily; though it seemed IdrA used fewer Lings there. Force Fields by Tyler were much better though, he also had no Forge.
Grend
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1600 Posts
June 08 2011 09:50 GMT
#328
Interesting to see the metagame shift this much due to the recent patch. From 4-gate "allin" being the nuisance to now roach-zergling "allin" being the problem. Poetic justice? Ironic? I do not know what it is but I look forward to ladder again

Does not look unbeatable though, but it will probably be pretty frustrating until the pro`s figure out some good respones.
♞ Against the Wind - Bob Seger ♞
mothergoose729
Profile Joined December 2010
United States666 Posts
June 08 2011 09:57 GMT
#329
Has anyone brought up what MC did in pretty much every game he played against zerg? Proper building placement can shut this down almost effortlessly IMO, or at least when MC did he could.

*hint, using building to wall of the side of the nexus closes to the main, put units behind it, and then you only have to forcefield a small area.
just_godlike
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom27 Posts
June 08 2011 15:39 GMT
#330
I have started to do 3gate expo into 5gate instead of forge+cannons and if he is not attacking I just add a robo for obs + colo. I have only played 3-4 games but I havent lost to roach/ling allin at all. I just drop the gates almost immediately after the expo starts, so they finish a little bit before the nexus does. I can put pressure, expand or whatever. I think this gives a lot of freedom.
Micket
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2163 Posts
June 08 2011 15:44 GMT
#331
Roach Ling aggression didn't work at all in MLG. Sim city is all that's needed, heck MC holds it with 1 gate expand into 3 gate Stargate.
Smoodish
Profile Joined April 2011
United States95 Posts
June 08 2011 22:11 GMT
#332
hey buds, best way to stop this roach all in, is to do ur 3 gate expo, or 1 gate FE mc-style, then add the 2 gates. From there, add a star gate, u want like 1 or 2 vrays, so they dont cut into sentry count. From there u shud be good, if they end up not doing it, its pretty easy to just keep probing up and transition into robo / 3rd expansion while pressuring with vray (or 2) and a couple phoneixes.

for those who might question my credibility I know because im a high 1300+ masters. Usually i hold this off with this (i've also seen MC hold it off like this i think), or with a high sentry count and FF really good, while warping in stalkers. Try to think about ur sim city in ur natural expansion. It'll help out tons with ur Force fielding. Also, try to cut off the army, while sandwiching/trapping 3 or so roaches to kill.
KingofGods
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1218 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-09 03:00:09
June 09 2011 02:54 GMT
#333
1 gate expo into 3 gate stargate is the way to go

[image loading]

If he doesn't go roach/ling all in then get robo facility and bay up and get collosi asap. Obviously switch over to blink stalkers / high templars if he goes mutas instead of hydras.
just_godlike
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom27 Posts
June 11 2011 17:41 GMT
#334
On June 09 2011 11:54 KingofGods wrote:
1 gate expo into 3 gate stargate is the way to go

[image loading]

If he doesn't go roach/ling all in then get robo facility and bay up and get collosi asap. Obviously switch over to blink stalkers / high templars if he goes mutas instead of hydras.


After watching the first 10mins of the replay I have to ask: What division are you in? Both you and your opponent did so many mistakes/stupid decisions, its just unbelievable.
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
June 11 2011 17:55 GMT
#335
On June 12 2011 02:41 just_godlike wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2011 11:54 KingofGods wrote:
1 gate expo into 3 gate stargate is the way to go

[image loading]

If he doesn't go roach/ling all in then get robo facility and bay up and get collosi asap. Obviously switch over to blink stalkers / high templars if he goes mutas instead of hydras.


After watching the first 10mins of the replay I have to ask: What division are you in? Both you and your opponent did so many mistakes/stupid decisions, its just unbelievable.

Your argument would be lot more convincing with some examples of 'mistakes' of 'stupid decisions'. Like this is seems like unnecessary bashing

To answer your question, using sc2ranks I think he's 1220 Diamond.
just_godlike
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom27 Posts
June 12 2011 12:22 GMT
#336
On June 12 2011 02:55 dani` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2011 02:41 just_godlike wrote:
On June 09 2011 11:54 KingofGods wrote:
1 gate expo into 3 gate stargate is the way to go

[image loading]

If he doesn't go roach/ling all in then get robo facility and bay up and get collosi asap. Obviously switch over to blink stalkers / high templars if he goes mutas instead of hydras.


After watching the first 10mins of the replay I have to ask: What division are you in? Both you and your opponent did so many mistakes/stupid decisions, its just unbelievable.

Your argument would be lot more convincing with some examples of 'mistakes' of 'stupid decisions'. Like this is seems like unnecessary bashing

To answer your question, using sc2ranks I think he's 1220 Diamond.


Examples:
the zealot was not on hold position so lings got in (zealot walloff)
then he FF-ed the ramp for no apparent reason (behind the lings so they couldnt go back lol)
then he almost lost his sentry for no apparent reason (tried to kill 4 lings with 1 sentry alone)

his opponent waited like 30sec in front of his base giving him enough time to get a vray out
his opponent just ran the lings around in his base without doing anything with them (except almost getting the sentry cuz of lack of focus from the P)
when his opponent allined him, he focused a gateway and left it alive, then focused the nexus, left it alive and then when his roaches were almost dead he tried to run up the ramp instead of killing workers
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
June 12 2011 12:50 GMT
#337
Why is it that whenever the meta game mostly solves a build and a race is forced to adapt people call it imba? Look, the safe build was safe because it was not yet widely understood how to beat it. People solved it and now its no longer a safe build. And for the record, as someone already said Zerg plays in the dark (I'd like to believe because we haven't figured out scouting to the exact level as other races) and we have to guess sometimes. You can open up 3 gate and add a 4th after killing the scout and go apply pressure, cut probes and all in or expand. What right are you asking for when that is a reality?

If you want to complain about people reacting to your 6 sentries and 3 gateways then don't bloody leave 6 sentries at your wall. If Terran did a 3rax all in by building 3 barracks as a wall and 18 marines directly behind it, how would you address him if he complained about how easy it is to scout it?
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
June 12 2011 13:46 GMT
#338
I actually handle this easily now with a 2 gate FE (and if I even scout just ONE roach), I put 2 cannons behind sim-city. I don't have problems anymore. I go 2 gate fe because I don't go aggressive with sentries, but use Felo's 2 zealot trick to scout (the roach popping out/roach warren/lots of speedlings).

The nexus goes down at around 5:40, then a pylon + warp-ins + a forge. The cannons finish at around 8.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
nick00bot
Profile Joined November 2010
326 Posts
June 12 2011 14:50 GMT
#339
void ray expand anyone? one of the biggest problems with sc2 is that when the metagame shifts people start crying when they use their same old builds that others havee adapted to beat.

yeah sorry protosses but 3 gate expands with pure sentry just isn't as viable as it used to be, and because you NEED cannons to hold this off i would even venture to say that the build is defunct now .

just look at players like kiwikaki, who've started doing 4 gate expands, or alicia that makes a single voidray while expanding and a. scares the zerg into a defensive position b. has a safety net againstroach ling agression (remember alicia was one of the first players to get thoughroly stomped by it).

essentially, if your not greedy you can hold this off pretty easily, and its a good time to mass up units anyways since zerg's third is just around the corner
SoO~Speed~Serral~$o$~Dark~Myungsik~TY~Byun~Classic
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
June 12 2011 15:02 GMT
#340
On June 12 2011 23:50 nick00bot wrote:
void ray expand anyone? one of the biggest problems with sc2 is that when the metagame shifts people start crying when they use their same old builds that others havee adapted to beat.

yeah sorry protosses but 3 gate expands with pure sentry just isn't as viable as it used to be, and because you NEED cannons to hold this off i would even venture to say that the build is defunct now .

just look at players like kiwikaki, who've started doing 4 gate expands, or alicia that makes a single voidray while expanding and a. scares the zerg into a defensive position b. has a safety net againstroach ling agression (remember alicia was one of the first players to get thoughroly stomped by it).

essentially, if your not greedy you can hold this off pretty easily, and its a good time to mass up units anyways since zerg's third is just around the corner


Lol I hold roach ling all ins with around 6 sentries (only 2 gates iirc) with 2 cannons. The only thing I'm worried about is that I'm kinda doing it blind, but I use the 2 zealot trick to find out what I need to do.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
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