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On May 23 2011 19:52 Papillon wrote:
please dont insult me
I never did and I don't intend to. I am just stating facts. I am sorry if my posts sounded like insults. It is not intentional.
On May 23 2011 19:52 Papillon wrote:
i never said i play this strategy i said it sounds interesting and like the best idea i heard in this thread
Well if you don't play like that how can you say it is a good strategy? As I said before, I tried it a couple of times against a practice buddy of mine and I got decimated every single time. Zerg went rl allin, fast third, fast lair, doom drop - basically every strategy in the book. I don't recall being ahead a single time if I went hallu first. Infortunately, I didn't save the replays so I can't show you the results.
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Here's an idea for your next forge fast expand against any hatch that comes earlier than a pool.
Forge -> Cannon rush.
I'm not saying outright kill the bugger with cannons, just force him to respond to that and probably lose his natural. Then while he's reacting to what you're doing you can safely fast expand yourself. Maybe I'm wrong, i'm only a gold level player. But if the idea is to be economically greedy and get ahead with a fast expand then why not.
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On May 23 2011 19:40 Sweetness.751 wrote:
Mid-masters.
Basically Toss has been to passive as of late in PvZ especially early game. Terran has been expanding while pressuring Zerg for a long time. I recently have been fooling around with high aggression expand builds and I will tell you what, it works very well.
Especially 3gate blink stalker pressure. Everything is the same as a typical 3gate sentry expand, except you make the TC after the second gate and after the first 1-2 sentries. Then expand to your natural while researching Blink and 1 zealot 3-4 sentries. Make proxy plyon at some point and begin your push warping in all stalkers. Its best to have your stalkers lag behind your sentry zealot push so that he doesn't know its coming.
3gate blink stalker pressure absolutely has its own massive weaknesses though (ie fast hydra ling); a committed 1 base blink stalker build CAN be very threatening even against a hydra ling response, but by trying to expand at the same time i feel that you miss the timing window of the 1base blink stalker all-in and you don't get another one before burrowed roaches or hydra ling comes into play.
plus it's so much more expensive and slow than a terran 2 rax FE! how can you examine both of these builds with a clear head and determine that they're equivalent in terms of mineral/gas cost, unit commitment, and the risk of potential build order losses?
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im having the same problem, ive recently tried to get hallu before wg since 3g expand doesnt really need wg all that early. havent bumped into the all in yet but im guessing u can forsee it easier if u can scout more units than usual. dono but worth trying.
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I think team IM killed the PvZ matchup 
Losira with the RL all in
Nestea with the Spine push on a Forge FE.
Honestly I'm super confused what to do.......
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I've found getting fast DTs after you expand deters or at least delays these kind of pushes, but your opponent can just ignore the 3 or so you warp in and ravage your economy whilst taking the damage.
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Just tried out 2 games going for a robo expand. Please check the replays and see what you think of it.
Were the first 2 games i tried this strat out. So it could probably use a lot of perfecting. Would love some comments.
Typhon Peaks
Xel'Naga
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Canada220 Posts
I really thing the only way to safely play against possible Roach Ling all ins IS ENTERILY MAP SPECIFIC.
For example on Xel naga Caverns, a Roach ling bust is super threatening because you can't make a 1 zealot wall at your expansion.
But on Tal Darim 3 buildings can cover your expansions main ground entrance. On Shakuras it's the same deal.
Every build has to be adjusted to your opponent and to the map. In Starcraft 2 positioning is a very heavy factor.
Certain maps Fast expanding is Risky because you have not yet re-scouted the zerg since your original probe.
Personally, What I do. on Maps where Sim-city is easy to build, I tend to throw down my first gateway at my expansion. And transition into 3 gate forge expand.
Basically this build is super risky, but you have to Play the early game guessing. There is no "Safe" way to play.
Because let's be honest, a Protoss can equally Fake a 3 gate expand, and morph 4 warpgates and win the game right there. Since Zergs have been not seeing the 4 gate as much since its easy to defend if you gear up for it.
On Maps like Zel Naga, Typhon Peaks.
I do either 2 things, 3 gate robo. With constant crono Boost on probes. That way, when your observer gets around to seeing the zerg base. You can throw down the nexus, and transfer full saturation without delay. At that point I throw down a robotics bay, 2 forges, 3 gateways. And with pylons you should have a solid Wall of buildings at your Natural to provide additional defenses.
The most important factor in ZvP is the "Plan" and how to adjust accordingly.
Some games you may have to throw your plan out the window because you don't attack now you will lose an easy expansion kill.
For example, If i see a 3rd base shortly after my second base. I tend to give up on any colosus tech and go right into 7 gate aggression.
The other Option, Is you Gear up for your third base while grabbing fast upgrades and colossus tech.
Back to the original Question.
There are many economic Builds you can use. The problem is if you're doing the generic 3 gate sentry expand. There is a timing window for zerg to punish the protoss. And the reason for that is very simple. Predictability.
To be very specific you're asking for a Foolproof way to defend against something you are not sure is coming while not giving up ground to early all in aggression.
I'm actually glad protoss view this build as probematic. I play protoss on ladder and Have lost to this build, it taught me to not always be extra greedy vs zerg as they can punish my greedy build.
How did I respond? Well, I learned to cut probes slightly and try to get an early sight on this potential aggression. You have to be aware of what can happen in this matchup. There is no 1 way to play as protoss and always have a good chance at winning.
Build order wins are definelty a potential for zerg equally for protoss.
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rank #2 masters 1.2k points here
im not too familiar with this all in push with ling/roach in terms of experience(i never 3 gate expand) but i feel like many of the possible builds to counter this ling/roach all in wont work if zerg does drops...a lot of these cannons + sentries and then fast expanding or like cannons fast expand 1 stargate build gets completely destroyed by 2 things i have experienced
1. mass ling drop in base
2. zerg taking a 3rd and having better econ
to all the players who are mentioning some sorta double probe scout or stalker/zealot sacrifice...none of these will work vs a smart zerg...and scouting cant rly be done until observer or hallucans...in which case everyone is mentioning robo quick builds dont rly work and hallucans cost too much
I think the best way is to do some sort of pressure build into expanding which will cause the the zergs to make at least some sorta error in their decision making to use limited eggs on either fighting units or drones which people havent seemed to be focusing on in this thread...maybe look more closely at pete's build or other pressure builds that can allow for an expand...but the idea of 2-3 cannons quick or forge expanding rly fast will always lead to some sorta problem now or in the future to zergs who does either of the 2 options i mentioned
In general though like 50% of the zergs have been complaining to me about how op protoss is in PvZ despite my contrary beliefs...so i guess there is a way to defend against this ling/roach build mentioned(or its harder to pull off by the zerg than it seems)
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This thread has had discussions of how stargates can't kill the roaches+lings quickly enough, how DTs are risky and should be dealt with easily if the zerg doesn't make a major mistake, and how sentry+cannon builds are just not safe.
Where does blink play fit into this discussion? Before roach speed, the only units zerg has that can touch blink stalkers are speedlings, which is very much a micro battle to determine who comes out ahead.
Opening stalker as your 1st gas unit lets you poke before speed is done and get a bit of scouting information, and makes the zerg make more lings than they would like. Obviously, the zealot stalker, or 2-3 stalker pokes aren't anything new, but they went out of style, and with the warpgate timing change widening the already large timing when zerg can drone up, some early pressure is worth looking into.
One of the reasons the roach/ling push is so strong is because it has complete map control against any sentry heavy protoss play. With a blink stalker play, the zerg has to make you move back while you pick away at his lings (being very careful not to get surrounded). That should be more than enough time to lay down 2 cannons.
Obviously the timings would have to be worked out, but I would be interested if anyone already has tried this so I either have a point to start from, or can not waste my time.
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The early roach build is very powerful vs protoss, even more so due to the warp gate research nerf.
The nerf means that it is difficult to get out enough units to defend in time.
Zelots dont work because people can kite with the roaches
Sentries, although the forcefields are good the sentries do not do enough damage to have any sort of impact
Stalkers, they are hard to get out in the propper numbers needed to defend against the roaches, also if the zerg player gets a few lings mixed in it makes the stalkers vertually useless.
There is also not enough time to get out immortals, and even if the protoss player does get 1-2 immortals out they can just be focued down by the roaches.
This is imba
User was warned for this post
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On May 24 2011 03:23 Gracksaurusrex wrote:
The early roach build is very powerful vs protoss, even more so due to the warp gate research nerf.
The nerf means that it is difficult to get out enough units to defend in time.
Zelots dont work because people can kite with the roaches
Sentries, although the forcefields are good the sentries do not do enough damage to have any sort of impact
Stalkers, they are hard to get out in the propper numbers needed to defend against the roaches, also if the zerg player gets a few lings mixed in it makes the stalkers vertually useless.
There is also not enough time to get out immortals, and even if the protoss player does get 1-2 immortals out they can just be focued down by the roaches.
This is imba
forcefields + cannons seems like a good combination. the forcefields keep the zerg at bay while the cannons dish out the damage. there are plenty of suggestions for dealing with this in this thread, you should especially check out miniguns posts.
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On May 19 2011 05:03 Mirl wrote:
You should try 3 gate+stargate+forge+expand.Void Rays doing amazing job.
when you get void rays;
1.At least you kill 1 Overlord(100 mineral)
2.Zerg scared roach&ling all in
3.Zerg get extra quenn or evolution chamber(150 gold)
4.You can kill Creep Tumors
5.you can deny zerg 3rd Base
350 min 300 gas added to the cost of fe + 1 crono lost on VR
1 ovy 100
extra queen 150 or 300 depends on how scared is he
evo 150
AA 150 more ( again depends of how "scared" he is of the VR )
So its a max of 700 minerals loss for zerg while you losse 350 mineral and 300 gas, considering that at that point the zerg economy is miles ahead its not quite a fair trade i would say, it may work sometime but i don't think its good enough to be "standard ".
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On May 24 2011 01:25 Stef wrote:Just tried out 2 games going for a robo expand. Please check the replays and see what you think of it. Were the first 2 games i tried this strat out. So it could probably use a lot of perfecting. Would love some comments. Typhon PeaksXel'Naga
This really seems to be perfect against it. I do this at around 1k master and sometimes Zergs just leave when they see the immortal(s) and know they cant push.
The build relies on getting 2 gates to be sure you dont die by ling all ins after that add a robo + 3rd gateway. Then when the robo finishes get an obs out (chrono) with an immortal after (chrono). Around the time the robo finishes get an expansion. Once the observer reaches the expansion you can see exactly how many drones he has and what he's building. Then you can decide to get more probes tech up or build defence.
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 25 2011 00:24 Stef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 01:25 Stef wrote:Just tried out 2 games going for a robo expand. Please check the replays and see what you think of it. Were the first 2 games i tried this strat out. So it could probably use a lot of perfecting. Would love some comments. Typhon PeaksXel'Naga This really seems to be perfect against it. I do this at around 1k master and sometimes Zergs just leave when they see the immortal(s) and know they cant push. The build relies on getting 2 gates to be sure you dont die by ling all ins after that add a robo + 3rd gateway. Then when the robo finishes get an obs out (chrono) with an immortal after (chrono). Around the time the robo finishes get an expansion. Once the observer reaches the expansion you can see exactly how many drones he has and what he's building. Then you can decide to get more probes tech up or build defence.
This actually provides Protoss with a push that was common about 6months back. It was a 2 immortal 5 gate timing if the Zerg went for roaches and a fast third.
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wasn't zlot + fast immortal popular in beta? Man roaches were OP back then =[
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With good forcefields and proper unit composition you should be able to stop it, you need less zealots(2-3 max) and more stalkers. The point is you need to cut roaches from lings and because you usually have like 6-7 sentries you should be able to do that easily even if you waste some FFs it's still ok for you.
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On May 25 2011 04:20 Keilah wrote:
wasn't zlot + fast immortal popular in beta? Man roaches were OP back then =[
With range 3 roaches, you could place cannons behind gateway-sized buildings such that the roaches couldn't reach the cannon and couldn't hit the gateway without being in range of the cannon. It's a big difference.
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France12578 Posts
On May 25 2011 04:20 Keilah wrote:
wasn't zlot + fast immortal popular in beta? Man roaches were OP back then =[
There was a lot of immortals push. 3warpgate, a robo, push at two immortal.
It was almost the standart way to open PvZ back then.
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I've had more luck with faking a 3gate expo as best I can and going for dt's to defend my front. Sometimes I go stalker first and let him see it to see if I can get him to think I'm doing something more aggressive, also serves to deny overlord scouting.
I still win half my games vZ with this, but it's volatile as hell and if you get scouted he can just build spores and drone like a psycho, which is lights out.
Makes me wonder about trying to reincarnate the bisu build from bw in sc2, though. If zerg can't break a protoss that gets dt's out, and P can get his nat then go stargate for phoenix and use the combination of phoenix and dt's to maintain map control, I bet he could get a pretty fast third and close the gap. It's backwards from the broodwar style, but made even more amusing in theory craft since overlords aren't detectors.
I'll be playing around, but if anyone knows of a reason why this is bullshit and would never work (i.e. someone really good tried it and it was terrible), please say so.
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EPT
