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There really is not a great way to 100% scout this but this is what I've been doing: Your scouting probe pops back up into their base just before their lings get out and you go and check their gas. I have found that zergs that are doing at least the super early versions of this build will not take all or any of the drones off of gas as they normally would. Of course I'm afraid soon zergs will realize this tell and take them off for at least a second to thwart the probe 
After seeing the gas I always put 2 cannons and then send out hallucination to try to find their army. I have found that seeing exactly when the push is coming (which seems to be anywhere between 7:30 and 10:00) is very important in getting the perfect forcefields that are required. The next thing that I do is have a probe sitting not far out of normal vision range of my nat so again I can have the advance warning of where the roaches are coming from. Remember, most of the time the lings will come from the other angle.
My problem now is figuring out what the best way to force field. Do I keep the roaches out and try to kill the lings first (this has NOT been working, my sentries get surrounded and then i have to use too many forcefields all at once to survive). So do I cut the army in half trying to kill small portions of both? The synergy of how these 2 units works would make me think this still might not be cost effective (probably losing too many sentries) The other option which I'm starting o really lean towards is trying to keep the lings out and the roaches in, thus your zealots cant be kited by the roaches and the lings are nullified for now. This seems pretty logical, but man its hard to keep zerglings out on many maps... (so skill comes into play bigtime here, which is fine). Another option would be to use forcefields to keep all of his units out trying to get some free hits while waiting on an extra warp-in or cannon to finish, again this might be hard on many maps.
My final concern or question is how I should keep my army. I have this nice semi-wall-off going on at my natural with a cannon etc... so do I use it to protect my army and lowering my own dps and ability to micro, or do I step a bit out so that I can get better forcefields and dps but endangering my sentries.
Any ideas?
~900 master
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Why not just put 3 cannons instead of 2 with really good sim city and forcefields? You may lose an advantage if he goes for a macro game but you will be safer, and if he DOES do this ling roach aggression he will be behind cuz your extra cannon did more damage.
Im ~600 master Zerg and Protoss.
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Seems to me like hallucinate first is worth a lot of testing to see if z can force an advantage reactively, after the z knows it's hallucinate and not warpgate.
If yes, hallu first = bad
If no, see if z can force an advantage by doing something blind, like inbase hat + roach or 3rr or double expanding
If no, sweet! hallucinate first is fine
If yes, decide whether you want to complain because ZvP imba or because SC2 is rock paper scissors 
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On May 22 2011 03:55 TheGreenMachine wrote:
Why not just put 3 cannons instead of 2 with really good sim city and forcefields? You may lose an advantage if he goes for a macro game but you will be safer, and if he DOES do this ling roach aggression he will be behind cuz your extra cannon did more damage.
Im ~600 master Zerg and Protoss.
because drones > cannons > roaches > no cannons > drones, and neither side can scout the other before committing so we're back to rock paper scissors.
Except toss can scout in time if he builds cannons just in time to defend, hallucination scouts before they complete, and cancels them if they aren't needed. Roaches can't be cancelled without losing larva =p
PvZ imba Z can't win ^_^
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I don't think the key is to go hallucination first. If he isn't all ining, you can't put on ANY pressure, for a LONG time. I have held this attack off many times, without scouting it. You have to position your first cannon correctly and have near perfect forcefields. I don't think there is any other answer. Making two blind cannons isn't worth it,
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On May 22 2011 07:46 Minigun wrote:
You have to position your first cannon correctly and have near perfect forcefields. I don't think there is any other answer. Making two blind cannons isn't worth it,
On May 22 2011 07:42 Keilah wrote:
builds cannons just in time to defend, hallucination scouts before they complete, and cancels them if they aren't needed.
User was warned for this post
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Canada13407 Posts
On May 22 2011 07:50 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:46 Minigun wrote:
You have to position your first cannon correctly and have near perfect forcefields. I don't think there is any other answer. Making two blind cannons isn't worth it, Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:42 Keilah wrote:
builds cannons just in time to defend, hallucination scouts before they complete, and cancels them if they aren't needed.
Seriously? Really?
Can I just take an aside here and say the following: why did you post only 2 quotes, adding no extra substance to the discussion here and add a response to minigun who plays on ROOT and has blue post because of his consistently solid and well thought out advice on the forums?
If you dont agree thats fine discuss thats the point of a discussion thread. The point isnt to blindly post a quote of something you said and in response to a high level player without offering insight into why this might work and how it might work. Are the timings good enough that you can cancel? What if the roaches arent scouted? these are things that you need to address when saying "make 2 cannons, hallucinate and cancel them" - they are what happens in a discussion
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I quoted because I didn't feel like typing the exact same things again. I think he's wrong when he says 1 blind cannon + good FFs is the only way.
I think 2-3 cannons at the last second, with a hallucinate to see if they can be cancelled, is better. If not, I'd like to hear why he disagrees.
And yeah, the timings work out really well and the roaches will always be scouted if they're coming. Even if he takes some roundabout path with the roaches to avoid being spotted, the phoenix should arrive in his base just in time to do a drone/larva/building count and spot the followup lings.
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On May 22 2011 08:09 Keilah wrote:
I quoted because I didn't feel like typing the exact same things again. I think he's wrong when he says 1 blind cannon + good FFs is the only way.
I think 2-3 cannons at the last second, with a hallucinate to see if they can be cancelled, is better. If not, I'd like to hear why he disagrees.
And yeah, the timings work out really well and the roaches will always be scouted if they're coming. Even if he takes some roundabout path with the roaches to avoid being spotted, the phoenix should arrive in his base just in time to do a drone/larva/building count and spot the followup lings.
When I do the standard 3 gate expand, hallucinate doesn't finish, until after the attack already hits. I usually start it after 5 sentries+ my forge and pylon at my natural.
If u get hallucination before forge, your cannon won't be up in time for the attack, which is why I don't see it being viable.
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see, now that's an answer
you must be using your chronoboost differently than me because my hallucinate usually finishes around 7:20 or so (from memory, + - 10s)
Since the patch I've also been 2gate sentry expanding instead of 3gate, my gas is always spent so I see no reason why a 3gate would be better unless the third early gate is needed for variants where you go attack really fast or need an extra unit to defend. Since I save 150 on an early gate, the forge and cannon(s) are down in time.
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On May 22 2011 08:21 Keilah wrote:
see, now that's an answer
you must be using your chronoboost differently than me because my hallucinate usually finishes around 7:20 or so (from memory, + - 10s)
Since the patch I've also been 2gate sentry expanding instead of 3gate, my gas is always spent so I see no reason why a 3gate would be better unless the third early gate is needed for variants where you go attack really fast or need an extra unit to defend. Since I save 150 on an early gate, the forge and cannon(s) are down in time.
I've been trying to do 2gate expo and currently am expanding with 2WG, 5 sentries and a zealot at ~6:10 mark, with 2 more sentries on the way. It does allow for a significantly earlier forge+cannon so you are slightly safer, however I have had trouble expanding against roach rushes which hit around that timing. Without the 3rd gateway it's hard to get enough units to push out and break the contain.
With the money you save from not getting the 3rd gateway, you need to throw down a forge+gate immediately to start simcity-ing in addition to blindly getting a cannon because you don't have the production to spend the additional income though, and it could be somewhat risky.
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On May 22 2011 08:21 Keilah wrote:
see, now that's an answer
you must be using your chronoboost differently than me because my hallucinate usually finishes around 7:20 or so (from memory, + - 10s)
Since the patch I've also been 2gate sentry expanding instead of 3gate, my gas is always spent so I see no reason why a 3gate would be better unless the third early gate is needed for variants where you go attack really fast or need an extra unit to defend. Since I save 150 on an early gate, the forge and cannon(s) are down in time.
I don't get why people 3 gate either if you intent to get hallucination. 2 gates provide enough capacity to dump all your gas into sentries already. Saving minerals on the third gate only saves minerals for the forge, if you want you can always drop that third gate relatively quickly afterwards on the lowground. As long as you have a forge you can always put excess money into cannons instead of units so there really is no need for that 3rd gate early.
I only 3 gate when i'm not getting hallucination which is usually in really close spawns where I just get a blind cannon and pressure more, big maps I dont feel safe moving out without hallucination thus I get it early.
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On May 21 2011 14:32 PJA wrote:
Maybe with godly force fields you can hold against losira build with only one cannon on Xel'Naga, but I doubt even that. On maps with such wide open naturals you're basically guaranteed to take a ton of damage if you 3 gate expand. With the setup minigun took a picture of, you're going to lose that pylon on the outside right off the bat, and then maybe with perfect force fields you'll only lose a few probes.
Either way, you're taking damage, you're going to use up almost all of your force fields while they take a third, and you'll probably lose a few sentries and probes as well.
Just go 3 gate DT expand like HuK and take your free win against roach aggression while still being fine against anything else.
PJA, is this (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108) the 3gate DT expand you're referring to? If not, would you mind linking to a replay of DT play against this sort of Zerg pressure? It feels that Zerg can simply throw up some spines/spores at home and proceed to do significant damage on the Protoss base anyways, as the gas that normally would've gone to sentries is instead sunk in tech.
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I have been experiencing this as a high diamond. I pretty much go dt expand every game. It is quite easy to transition out of if he doesn't go rl all-in. if he does, it's auto gg for you. No way can the zerg survive the dt's
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roach-ling hits around 7:45 ( xel naga caverns ) i think, hallucination is done with chrono boost around 7:20. you should have time to see him coming across the map and use your forcefields to hold him off for the last 20 seconds while 2 more cannons get up.
Just some ideas I have been working with, I'm not nearly skilled enough to be able to argue with Minigun
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On May 22 2011 09:27 _Fiction_ wrote:
roach-ling hits around 7:45 ( xel naga caverns ) i think, hallucination is done with chrono boost around 7:20. you should have time to see him coming across the map and use your forcefields to hold him off for the last 20 seconds while 2 more cannons get up.
Just some ideas I have been working with, I'm not nearly skilled enough to be able to argue with Minigun
yes this is exactly what I've been saying, except that you need to put the cannons up before hallucinate completes because sometimes they do a less-drone hit-earlier version.
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I died to this today. Exact as the OP described it. The second I built my hallu pheonix there was roaches at my door. I haven't really theorycrafted on it yet but from what I gather, cannons are the way to stop it if your going for a three gate expand. You have two choices, you can either do like a 2-3 stalker harass just to scout the fringe of the zergs base to check army size which is a good indicator or just go blind 2-3 cannon. If you think about it it breaks even in the end. The zerg sacrifices drone count for the extra units while u give a few extra minerals for defence. Even then its gonna be difficult to defend. I gues on maps with a ramp at your natural forcefields alone along with the usual 1 cannon is possible, but on maps like xel naga and metalopolis zerg will have the advantage especially close position.
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http://replayfu.com/download/JV23Kd
Hallu after WG, lots of chronos on wg/hallu (you shouldn't have to spend many CB's on sentries since the patch; you don't really have the gas anyway).
2 cannons if you scout it. On xel Naga or LT, maps where the zerg has to break rocks down to establish the 3rd, their push will be slightly delayed but in this replay, the rocks are down by the time the roaches get there.
My control during the hold was not even that great and I was never at risk of dying; if your ff micro is not very good just play very conservatively (and cancel your gateway when its about to die.. tt)
You can follow up by taking a 3rd but I think you have a very strong timing with an immortal or 2 and a whole bunch of gateways to end the game with a 2base push afterwards. Zerg really only has 2 ways of transitioning out of this build because they are low on gas (only have 1 gas til the timing is over) so they can't really get infestors in time unless they don't make any other units. They should be on 3 bases and have about as many workers as you do at this point. So here are their 2 real option
1. Continue making roaches
2. Transition to hydra
If they stay on roach tech, you should be able to outright kill them with the immortal + 6-8gate (+ blink if you like) timing. This was the case in the replay above.
Going to post the second replay in a minute; this is where the zerg transitioned to hydras. You can't really kill them with the timing (though you might be able to if you get blink) But you should be able to do significant damage and possibly even kill an expansion. In this case, back off and take your 3rd and you are way ahead.
Now I'm sure some one is going to quote this and post the timings from the GSL. Sorry, I can't play 12 hrs a day, I play 1-2 if I am lucky :p
Here is 2nd replay http://replayfu.com/download/SGJkKr
I'm still working on figuring out the best way to transition out of holding this, so bear with me if it's a bit sloppy ^^
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On May 22 2011 11:04 Alejandrisha wrote:http://replayfu.com/download/JV23KdHallu after WG, lots of chronos on wg/hallu (you shouldn't have to spend many CB's on sentries since the patch; you don't really have the gas anyway). 2 cannons if you scout it. On xel Naga or LT, maps where the zerg has to break rocks down to establish the 3rd, their push will be slightly delayed but in this replay, the rocks are down by the time the roaches get there. My control during the hold was not even that great and I was never at risk of dying; if your ff micro is not very good just play very conservatively (and cancel your gateway when its about to die.. tt) You can follow up by taking a 3rd but I think you have a very strong timing with an immortal or 2 and a whole bunch of gateways to end the game with a 2base push afterwards. Zerg really only has 2 ways of transitioning out of this build because they are low on gas (only have 1 gas til the timing is over) so they can't really get infestors in time unless they don't make any other units. They should be on 3 bases and have about as many workers as you do at this point. So here are their 2 real option 1. Continue making roaches 2. Transition to hydra If they stay on roach tech, you should be able to outright kill them with the immortal + 6-8gate (+ blink if you like) timing. This was the case in the replay above. Going to post the second replay in a minute; this is where the zerg transitioned to hydras. You can't really kill them with the timing (though you might be able to if you get blink) But you should be able to do significant damage and possibly even kill an expansion. In this case, back off and take your 3rd and you are way ahead. Now I'm sure some one is going to quote this and post the timings from the GSL. Sorry, I can't play 12 hrs a day, I play 1-2 if I am lucky :p Here is 2nd replay http://replayfu.com/download/SGJkKrI'm still working on figuring out the best way to transition out of holding this, so bear with me if it's a bit sloppy ^^
The only problem with doing the build like you did, is you have 31 probes at the 8 minute mark, which is really really bad. When i'm doing a normal 3 gate expand I have 31 probes at around the 6:30 mark.
If the zerg is not all ining, and just plays straight up, I'm pretty sure you will lose if you both play perfect.
just my opinion.
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On May 22 2011 11:14 Minigun wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2011 11:04 Alejandrisha wrote:http://replayfu.com/download/JV23KdHallu after WG, lots of chronos on wg/hallu (you shouldn't have to spend many CB's on sentries since the patch; you don't really have the gas anyway). 2 cannons if you scout it. On xel Naga or LT, maps where the zerg has to break rocks down to establish the 3rd, their push will be slightly delayed but in this replay, the rocks are down by the time the roaches get there. My control during the hold was not even that great and I was never at risk of dying; if your ff micro is not very good just play very conservatively (and cancel your gateway when its about to die.. tt) You can follow up by taking a 3rd but I think you have a very strong timing with an immortal or 2 and a whole bunch of gateways to end the game with a 2base push afterwards. Zerg really only has 2 ways of transitioning out of this build because they are low on gas (only have 1 gas til the timing is over) so they can't really get infestors in time unless they don't make any other units. They should be on 3 bases and have about as many workers as you do at this point. So here are their 2 real option 1. Continue making roaches 2. Transition to hydra If they stay on roach tech, you should be able to outright kill them with the immortal + 6-8gate (+ blink if you like) timing. This was the case in the replay above. Going to post the second replay in a minute; this is where the zerg transitioned to hydras. You can't really kill them with the timing (though you might be able to if you get blink) But you should be able to do significant damage and possibly even kill an expansion. In this case, back off and take your 3rd and you are way ahead. Now I'm sure some one is going to quote this and post the timings from the GSL. Sorry, I can't play 12 hrs a day, I play 1-2 if I am lucky :p Here is 2nd replay http://replayfu.com/download/SGJkKrI'm still working on figuring out the best way to transition out of holding this, so bear with me if it's a bit sloppy ^^ The only problem with doing the build like you did, is you have 31 probes at the 8 minute mark, which is really really bad. When i'm doing a normal 3 gate expand I have 31 probes at around the 6:30 mark. If the zerg is not all ining, and just plays straight up, I'm pretty sure you will lose if you both play perfect. just my opinion.
41 vs 28 once the push is all over though :D
I don't really like cb'ing probes after the 1st 2 against zerg and I didn't notice any but 2-3 extremely small probe cuts so I'm not too displeased with having that few blind. Obviously if I scouted and there was no timing I'd throw a few rounds of CB on both nexi. And we all know my opponent sure likes his timings -.-
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EPT
