EPT[D] Roach ling all in/agression, how does P expo? - Page 13
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Swazi
United States11 Posts
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
Specific example: I was watching White-Ra earlier with Mr. Bitter and he was talking about what he was scouting and how he was reacting as he played. He scouted a roach/ling all-in (arguably not the best executed, but pretty much what you see in mid/high masters) and defended it with a Cannons and a single Stalker (more units came, but that was what he had when 8 roaches marched up to his base). The key was scouting the attack en-route (On Tal'Darim Altar) by effectively using a probe scout. Losing to unscouted Roach/Ling seems to be like losing to an MC style unscouted 4 gate. You're praying he won't all-in you and not getting enough scouting information to shut it down. Force Field combined with Cannons is super, super good against this style of play in the early game. Is it truly a hard counter? I don't think so, but 3 Gate Expo is a safe way to play against every standard early Zerg style, this included. | ||
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Incursus
United States415 Posts
tl;dr The problem is that smart zergs see cannons/VRs/DTs and just expand and defend and get really far ahead in the mid/late game. | ||
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Shooks
Australia256 Posts
I recommend to Protoss players to just get hallucination as soon as they put down their nexus, while constantly warping in sentries and zealots, then eventually start getting a few stalkers. I also put down the forge when nexus is around half HP, then you can start putting down pylons as a wall to, I haven't lost to any sort of ling/roach aggression ever doing this, the quick hallucination scout will also allow you to scout the roach/ling aggression. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
-sometimes the zerg hits earlier, with slight deviations that leave him less econ but hit faster. You are dead to those versions, because Mini is right that the build as you played it gets the forge and cannon too late. Even with 32 drones, I read that it can hit around 7:50 and neither of these guys hit before 8:00. -pretty significant amount of unused time on the gateways and some small probe cuts. EDIT: -loads of chronoboost left over, but your minerals were mostly spent. If you'd cut one gate you could have boosted probes a couple more times early on. For those reasons, I really think the build would be improved by delaying the third gate in favor of nonstop probes and a faster cannon plant. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
The goals: -warpgate research complete at 6:00 - requires 3 chronoboosts, assuming you 14gate which gets the cybernetics core done around 3:50 -forge complete with 300 minerals available at 7:10 for completed cannons at 7:50 -hallucinate complete at 7:20 - it takes about 25s for a phoenix to cross most maps, so it will be over your opponent's hatchery in time to cancel your cannons if there are no roaches. This will happen with zero chronoboosts on hallucinate, assuming warp finished at 6:00 and you start hallucinate ASAP. Hallucinate could be completed at 7:10 with one more chrono boost if you want a little freedom with your APM, but It's better not to waste chronoboost and just do things smoothly. EDIT: On maps and positions where the path to the main is not a straight line (cross map metal for example), you definitely want to use at least 1 chronoboost on hallucinate, possibly 2, to make up for the phoenix taking longer to cover the approach path on the way to the enemy main. Same for bigger maps where it takes longer. You will need to hallucinate extra phoenixes if there is more than 1 attack path. EDIT #2: I'm going to go ahead and recommend at least 1 chronoboost at all times, just because most/all of us aren't robots and you really do want a few seconds to look around your opponents main and make sure, in time to cancel the cannons. On spawns like metal cross, use 2 boosts and send the phoenix out at 7:00. If you think you can do without the extra 10s, be my guest =] -spend 100% of gas at all times, until you finish sentry production. Avoid idle gateway time. EDIT: 1 base of gas can't quite keep up with sentry production on 2 warpgates. Unless most people build a second zealot, I'm seriously confused as to why anyone would 3gate instead of 2gate. -Build probes nonstop, with as many chronoboosts as possible, as early as possible. Assuming 3 chronoboosts on warp, that leaves you 4 to spend on probes before it completes. You also get a 5th and 6th available while hallucinate is researching. You might want to use your first chronoboost on the zealot, and you might want to save the 5th and 6th to use as a reaction based on what the phoenix sees. In my BO making, I'm going to assume that you do NOT get to use a 3rd boost on probes before making a zealot, as it delays your first zealot and sentry by a few seconds, which usually matters. -put the forge AND 3rd gate into the expo wall? I'm not certain the forge is necessary, since you'll have 2 cannons, but it could be helpful - could also be a liability in case they do some goofy allin and force you to abandon the low ground. Anyways, to get the forge into the wall on time you need a low ground pylon started by 6:00. My tests give me 1 zealot and 2 sentries around 5:15, the 3rd around 5:50, and the 4th/5th around 6:10. Can the pylon be planted and defended with 1z/3s for ten seconds until the 2 extra sentries arrive? Someone better than me can answer that. If you have 2 cannons, 1-2 pylons, and just the 3rd gateway in the wall, is that enough? -nexus planted ASAP, as long as it's after 5:50. I say this because, if you get hit with some sort of faster roach attack with less drones before the 7:30 mark, you might need to cancel your stuff on the low ground and retreat up your ramp. 20s + of FF stalling with no backup DPS is probably unrealistic. Also, 5:50 is when you get your third sentry, and before that I'm 99% certain you can't leave your ramp to fight off speedlings. -3rd gate planted in time to keep up with your income - this one I'm including as a formality really, since between chronoboosts, nonstop probes, 2 gates, and building geysers at the expo, I find there's no trouble at all keeping the money spent. I also think a 3rd gate might not even be necessary - 2gates will spend your income up to the point of the attack, and you get a phoenix into his main by 7:50, so you can still decide to build a faster robo or something instead of more gates. Cancelling the cannons when you determine there's no roach rush coming does leave you with a bunch of minerals, but there's no harm in being flexible in the way you spend them. -Have ways to branch off the main build into some variant(s), based on scouting at certain times - this is frosting on the cake for some determined individual, I won't touch this but it's worth mentioning. -Is there anything else that needs mentioning? I don't think so. Feel free to add something if it's important. So, now that the goals have been laid out, I ask for confirmation that they are in fact what we're looking for. If the cannons just NEED to be 10s sooner, or if you gotta build a 3rd cannon, or anything else, speak up. Regardless of whether or not the goals are useful - preliminary testing tells me they are 100% attainable. Now it's a matter of optimizing and making sure it works in real games. | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
Something that should not be forgotten is the fact the Voidray will net you at the very least 1 Overlord kill, force the Zerg into responding in one way or another (he doesn't know if you will add Phoenix or stay on 1 VR), and you can deny his 3rd or at least damage it heavily. I think I will start using this more and more. Here is a replay of the opening vs 21 worker Ling/Roach aggression on Xel'Naga Caverns. It's in Master league, he has ~1100 points, I had about 600 I think (~350 bonus pool). | ||
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Papillon
Germany131 Posts
the thing is there is no real sacrifice other than building blind cannons or sending out decoys which might get killed before seeing anything special and well if you think a very early hallucinated phoenix shows z he can drone up like crazy well you can do the same plus you can send out the hallucinated phoenix not directly when its finished but more like when z already had invested in his roach/ling build and you still have enough time to react with cannons | ||
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just_godlike
United Kingdom27 Posts
On May 22 2011 19:43 Papillon wrote: the hallucination before warpgate sounds like the best idea yet 2 things: 1) If you don't get WG first, how can you pressure zerg early if he is not going for rl allin? 2) If you go hallu first, even if you scout the incoming allin, how can you make units fast without WG? WG is the best toss upgrade in the game. Not getting it is like playing marine/marauder without stim. P.S. And please don't say you go for stargate. 100 gas for hallu, 100 for each sentry, 150 for stargate, 100/150 for phoenix/vray... This cannot be done off of 2 gas no matter what. | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
The Stargate opening I talked about a few posts ago also helps IMO, but I am not sure yet if it holds it easier, have to test it a bit more. | ||
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aZoX
Canada358 Posts
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
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NTGKOA
United States46 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On May 23 2011 04:24 aZoX wrote: Only one cannon + good force fields on 3 gate expands holds this. White-ra does hold it oftently then the zerg is just so far behind. I'm top master and ive a couple of replays too holding this with 3 gate expand and 1 canon, or simply 3 gate expand without canon with clutch forcefields post the reps? | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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Papillon
Germany131 Posts
On May 23 2011 04:05 just_godlike wrote: 2 things: 1) If you don't get WG first, how can you pressure zerg early if he is not going for rl allin? 2) If you go hallu first, even if you scout the incoming allin, how can you make units fast without WG? WG is the best toss upgrade in the game. Not getting it is like playing marine/marauder without stim. P.S. And please don't say you go for stargate. 100 gas for hallu, 100 for each sentry, 150 for stargate, 100/150 for phoenix/vray... This cannot be done off of 2 gas no matter what. 1) you dont need to put pressure, you can play greedy yourselves if zerg decides to do the same also i want to note this hallu first strat is best played when going for an fe (not possible on every map i know) 2) lets say the allin arrives at around 7:30; you send the hallucinated phoenix when the upgrade is finished at around the 6min mark to be able to react with enough cannons (when zerg plays roach ling allin theres nothing wrong in this investion as you might know) besides its not like you cant built units without wg; the very important sentry has the same building time with or without. you can still built units from your gates, have around the same amount of sentrys and you can react properly to the allin. you can drone up if zerg does the same. when did p ever move out with a small gateway army when he did fe to pressure zerg? and you can still go heavy wg pressure with 6-7 gates, its not like wg upgrade takes years another nice effect of hallu first when fe'ing is that you can see zerg going contain with sunkens earlier and have more time to react (or at least you can see him preparing for this strategy which gives it kinda away; still its a scary strategy) | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
Basically Toss has been to passive as of late in PvZ especially early game. Terran has been expanding while pressuring Zerg for a long time. I recently have been fooling around with high aggression expand builds and I will tell you what, it works very well. Especially 3gate blink stalker pressure. Everything is the same as a typical 3gate sentry expand, except you make the TC after the second gate and after the first 1-2 sentries. Then expand to your natural while researching Blink and 1 zealot 3-4 sentries. Make proxy plyon at some point and begin your push warping in all stalkers. Its best to have your stalkers lag behind your sentry zealot push so that he doesn't know its coming. Make sure you pylon block your ramp and don't get supply blocked. The best part is that its easy to retreat and can easily kill him if he over drones since FFing the ramp can isolate his natural. Plus having early blink gives you map control and the ability to deny expos. Just be able to macro at home while pressuring and you are all good. Remember you don't need to kill him, this is just to keep him honest. Which is exactly what Zerg was doing with the early roach/ling push. I recommend keeping a contain if you killed his natural but cant push up into the main OR just harass with your stalkers to let your sentries retreat then blink back home. This army should be strong enough to hold a roach/ling all-in if he decides to to counter push. | ||
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PopoChampion
Australia91 Posts
Professional players aren't complaining about it so I don't see why lesser players should be. You still have a lot of room to improve, so it's better to spend your time doing so. | ||
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just_godlike
United Kingdom27 Posts
All I am going to ask is what do you do if you go hallu first and zerg immediately takes his 3rd? You can't attack him, can't play macro game against him, you basically just die. P.S. I don't want to be rude, but saying you can drone up if zerg does it is just hilarious. You can make 2 probes at a time even with CB, while zerg can make like 12 at a time (2base vs 2base). You sound like you have never played vs zerg... | ||
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Papillon
Germany131 Posts
you cant really put pressure when z takes third when you did fast expand and the kind of pressure you normally do can still be done with a slightly delayed wg it seems like you think everything would change when you go hallu first im just saying that wg is a bit delayed and you can hold off heavy aggression more easy because of the scouting information i dont know how good you are im high masters and around the top 500 including gm so please dont insult me; plus i never said i play this strategy i said it sounds interesting and like the best idea i heard in this thread | ||
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