EPT[D] Roach ling all in/agression, how does P expo? - Page 2
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gheyrobot
United States30 Posts
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Gescom
Canada3494 Posts
On May 19 2011 05:01 Jaeger wrote: Except you can't reliably scout after ling speed until hallucination/stargate tech kicks in which is too late. Try going 2gate robo and pump an immortal and an obs out, then go from there. You can definitely hold roach/ling early on with an early immortal+zeals, if he's not cutting drones you can expand and add probes. I dunno? It's definitely not impossible! ^^ | ||
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To3-Knee
Canada100 Posts
On May 19 2011 05:03 Mirl wrote: You should try 3 gate+stargate+forge+expand.Void Rays doing amazing job. when you get void rays; 1.At least you kill 1 Overlord(100 mineral) 2.Zerg scared roach&ling all in 3.Zerg get extra quenn or evolution chamber(150 gold) 4.You can kill Creep Tumors 5.you can deny zerg 3rd Base Whenever I try this, protoss is so far behind economically that it is hard to make it back. He will see your void ray and throw down spores and build more queens. Then zerg is free to drone. Sure, he can't push out right away, but zerg knows you can't really pressure with a ground force and so he can drone up and throw down a few spines for your 3 gates. Even if you get an expo off it, it will still be behind zerg's economy. | ||
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Mnijykmirl
United States299 Posts
Problem: Protoss is losing to a specific Zerg build! Finding a solution: 1. Can we, within reason, just play better to make it work? No. Then the next step. 2. Can we do some small thing to prevent Zerg from countering the build without much alteration to the build? (I don't know the answer) If no, go to the next step. 3. Can we fall back to some contingency plan that easily counters the Zerg build if they attempt to counter your default build?(EX: Scout roach/ling, therefore x protoss all-in and win) If no, go to the next step. 4. What do we have to have, at what time, and where to counter the counter directly?(A really good question I'd love to know) Can we get this without making too drastic a sacrifice elsewhere? 5. Build is busted. Generate a new build. -Why did we use the old build. What was good about it. Highlight what had strong specific purposes, and highlight things that had high redundancy. Cross out things that did not havestrong purpose and re-evaluate things with low redundancy. Use this as the base for your new build. -Build the build to be sure to counter what countered the old build. To be honest it's been hard to evaluate Protoss strength to Zerg for a while. Most of it really has appealed to me as relying on protoss turtling for an infinite strength colossus/forcefield deathball, the occasional cheeses, and tricking a Zerg into droning too heavily so you can crush him with a hidden timing push as he suspects you to just two base turtle to colossus and naturally plays very greedy in response. That sounds like a weak core metagame, although maybe it just sounds weak and it's actually much stronger in practice. | ||
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gheyrobot
United States30 Posts
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rale
United States40 Posts
I don't really see how a 2-gate robo build could work, either. At 200/100 for the robo, and 250/100 for your first immortal, you're going to have 2 less sentries, and you won't have minerals to get a cannon up before roach/ling hits. A fast observer to see if the push is coming is good and all, but it doesn't help if you can't hold it off anyway. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
So, the question is, what's the Protoss safe economic option in PvZ? Right now I see none, so the metagame is going to shift to 1 base all-ins. | ||
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GoooN
217 Posts
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PrivateOvalawd
United States3 Posts
I just watched NesTea vs Inca G1. Inca sacrificed some efficiency in his build to try and trick NesTea, and it didn't work. As a result, all Inca had was a couple sentries, with which he did not FF hardly at all. At that point Inca was up 10 workers when the attack hit. It's the same thing that happens to zerg; play too risky, eco too much, don't make units, lose. The nature of zerg is that their unit production is really spiky. If they're making a lot of units, their eco behind it will be abysmal. If you fear a roach/ling all in, you might have to sacrifice a scouting worker or stalker. At that point in the game, the zerg likely won't have much creep spread, and the only way they can deny scouting is by revealing their units to you. Any more than maybe... 10 lings at that point in the game (not sure on the exact number for this build) means aggression. It just comes down to just being more creative with scouting, or just taking the loss of a unit or two in exchange for information. I don't really know what else to say... this build is designed to punish expands without sufficient military force, and it did just that. | ||
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accaris
98 Posts
If it's proven that forcefields cannot hold a roach/ling push (and I'm not totally convinced that they can't,) perhaps a defensive 4-gate should be tried? Delaying your expansion by 1 minute isn't going to end the game for you if your army value is higher early on. Plus, you're better primed to take a 3rd, since you have the defensive advantage of more Stalkers. | ||
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Trowa127
United Kingdom1230 Posts
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Paperline
Canada78 Posts
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On May 19 2011 05:50 Paperline wrote: The top replay is hero vs genius which is a pvp Wrong thread. | ||
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CptHandsome
Denmark95 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On May 19 2011 05:44 PrivateOvalawd wrote: I hate to say it man, but this sounds surprisingly a lot like the QQ that IdrA currently has about zerg scouting. This is a really sweet zerg timing where you can't just do a build that's "safe enough" without scouting the opponent. I just watched NesTea vs Inca G1. Inca sacrificed some efficiency in his build to try and trick NesTea, and it didn't work. As a result, all Inca had was a couple sentries, with which he did not FF hardly at all. At that point Inca was up 10 workers when the attack hit. It's the same thing that happens to zerg; play too risky, eco too much, don't make units, lose. The nature of zerg is that their unit production is really spiky. If they're making a lot of units, their eco behind it will be abysmal. If you fear a roach/ling all in, you might have to sacrifice a scouting worker or stalker. At that point in the game, the zerg likely won't have much creep spread, and the only way they can deny scouting is by revealing their units to you. Any more than maybe... 10 lings at that point in the game (not sure on the exact number for this build) means aggression. It just comes down to just being more creative with scouting, or just taking the loss of a unit or two in exchange for information. I don't really know what else to say... this build is designed to punish expands without sufficient military force, and it did just that. You can't sacrifice a worker if they're doing it right. They can take all the watchtowers and hide their lings. There's no way to scout it coming unless the Zerg messes up. (or unless the Protoss opens with something weird like 1gate SG or something.) | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
I will upload the replay when I get home. | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On May 19 2011 05:44 PrivateOvalawd wrote: I hate to say it man, but this sounds surprisingly a lot like the QQ that IdrA currently has about zerg scouting. This is a really sweet zerg timing where you can't just do a build that's "safe enough" without scouting the opponent. I just watched NesTea vs Inca G1. Inca sacrificed some efficiency in his build to try and trick NesTea, and it didn't work. As a result, all Inca had was a couple sentries, with which he did not FF hardly at all. At that point Inca was up 10 workers when the attack hit. It's the same thing that happens to zerg; play too risky, eco too much, don't make units, lose. The nature of zerg is that their unit production is really spiky. If they're making a lot of units, their eco behind it will be abysmal. If you fear a roach/ling all in, you might have to sacrifice a scouting worker or stalker. At that point in the game, the zerg likely won't have much creep spread, and the only way they can deny scouting is by revealing their units to you. Any more than maybe... 10 lings at that point in the game (not sure on the exact number for this build) means aggression. It just comes down to just being more creative with scouting, or just taking the loss of a unit or two in exchange for information. I don't really know what else to say... this build is designed to punish expands without sufficient military force, and it did just that. I don't really see how sacrificing a Stalker would be a viable scouting option. For one, production is very limited early game if Protoss is doing an expand, so the smaller number of units is going to grow smaller to defend against this tidal push. Second, Zerg alway say that sac'ing an Overlord is impossible early game because of how far behind you would be, but now we're expected to sac 125 min/50 gas. Third, the most important point, is that 5-6 Speedlings can take out a Stalker before he can get anywhere to see anything. So for 3 larva, you can keep the Protoss guessing. Hardly a real economic sacrifice. On May 19 2011 05:45 accaris wrote: Wasn't the 3-gate sentry expand designed specifically to be safe against a roach/ling push? Otherwise, what's the point in it? Zerg can't just 1-A into a wall of 3 cannons and expect to automatically win. If they spend a lot of time building roaches instead of droning, they're going to be just as economically disadvantaged as you are. If it's proven that forcefields cannot hold a roach/ling push (and I'm not totally convinced that they can't,) perhaps a defensive 4-gate should be tried? Delaying your expansion by 1 minute isn't going to end the game for you if your army value is higher early on. Plus, you're better primed to take a 3rd, since you have the defensive advantage of more Stalkers. It was designed against heavy Zergling and Baneling aggression. Between the Roach range increase and nerfed Gateway timings, Roaches have always been effective at busting cannon walls. Just surprised it hasn't caught on as much. As far as 4 Gate, then expand goes, I've never seen a game where Protoss 4 Gates then expands, and isn't behind, because you're usually obligated to do a whole round of Warp-In. He promptly loses thereafter from having a smaller long-term army. I don't know the exact time on delay is, but it's apparently significant enough. I could be wrong though. I've been playing around with 1 Gate, 1 Robo, Expand then another Gate. It not only has to deal well with Roach/Ling, but Baneling Busts too. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
The zerg build hits exactly at 7:30. At what time does hallucination finish ? Does that time allows you to react properly to what you scout ? (ie : will you have time to prepare your defenses ?) What we know : - one gate expo dies - 3 gates sentries die - forge expo dies - every kind of stargate build dies (because lings will ravage your probes before dying to any amount of void rays) That let us with a combination of forge and gates. 3 gate forge with like 1 minute of probes cut would certainly work. Does 2 gates forge without probe cut would work ? 2 canons or 3 ? (or 4 ?) This thread is starting the wrong way, everyone theorycraft without any kind of concrete base. I only play zerg and terran so I won't do the tests for you, but imo you should use a more "scientific" approach to this problem. | ||
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Mirl
Turkey173 Posts
On May 19 2011 05:09 To3-Knee wrote: Whenever I try this, protoss is so far behind economically that it is hard to make it back. He will see your void ray and throw down spores and build more queens. Then zerg is free to drone. Sure, he can't push out right away, but zerg knows you can't really pressure with a ground force and so he can drone up and throw down a few spines for your 3 gates. Even if you get an expo off it, it will still be behind zerg's economy. 120 supply void/colossi protoss deathball more effective than 160/170 zerg army imo. | ||
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