EPTHow about just 4gating (but not allining) in a way that it allows you to expand by applying pressure.
[D] Roach ling all in/agression, how does P expo? - Page 3
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Volka
Argentina411 Posts
How about just 4gating (but not allining) in a way that it allows you to expand by applying pressure. | ||
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
In my opinion its still doable under certain circumstances. Those are: Dropping a Forge and a 4th Gateway while your nexus is building, going up to 8 Sentries ASAP and getting some Stalkers afterwards combined with one cannon close to your nexus (You need that to be safe against Burrowpushes anyway). Now to the important stuff: First you aren't as blind as a lot of people try to put it - in fact, most of the time getting mapcontrol is as easy as warping in a second zealot and walk up to the Xel-Naga-Towers. Two possibilites: 1.you clean up his scout ling(s) and can proceed to walk up to his base, checking his saturation or how much units he has (Thats why you need 2 btw, because 1 could die to 4 zerglings) 2. He kills two Zealots which requires more zerglings than a zerg would regularly build - guess what could happen Second: When you realize that all-in is coming - DONT GET MORE STALKERS. I made that mistake for a long time but in fact Zealots are far better in smaller numbers when their prey cant run from them and roaches are neither quick nor big in numbers for this push. Third: Stay close to your buildings. You have a lot of FFs at your disposal but its still important to use them wisely. I crushed a lot of those pushes without losing a single unit by trapping the roaches close to my buildings with 3 FFs and killing them from afar. Basically the defense of the push consists of two things: killing the roaches (unimportant) and killing the speedlings (important). The roaches only exist to bait your units out in the open where the speedlings can do the job - as soon as the speedlings are dead you can easily surround the roaches with FFs and finish them off. But because of that dynamic you have to wait until he sacrifices his Speedlings in any way - if that means that its neccessary to let him take down a pylon/Gate/your Forge then fine - let him get that building, wait for him to stream his speedlings in and place the nail in the coffin - if hes not doing that you are fine as well for obvious reasons. tl;dr-Version: * Get a Forge and a Gateway while expanding * Use a group of two zealots to scout * If the all-in is coming stall your Stalkerproduktion, pump out zealots * Stay close to your buildings * Utilize your buildings/FFs to trap speedlings and be able to kill them * Be patient, don't go out in the open until you are sure that there's no mob of speedlings waiting for you | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
Lately on certain positions I've just started 2gating (but not committing to an attack), while getting only 50gas for warpgate research, expanding, then adding on more gates + resuming gas. Tech is quite delayed, but feels very safe with option to attack a greedy zerg. This is all of course depends on what I see with probe/zealot poking.. I feel that good players will simply respond to my 2gate correctly by fast roach - most of the people I've been meeting go into turtle mode upon seeing the 2nd gate. Just a thought though - creating pressure / hitting the zerg before his build is ready (7:30 as someone mentioned). | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
I have been experimenting with a 1 gas 3 gate FE, using mostly Sentry/Stalker. It is very slightly delayed, but you can have more workers on minerals and don't spend 75 on gas early, so it is barely later. You also have to put the Forge at the front with at least 1 cannon to defend it. You then have to focus down the Roaches and get down fast Robo while making mostly Zealots to deal with any lings that do get in. Ideally, you end up with a good mix of Zeal/Stalker/Sentry and a reasonable Robo, along with +1 ups if you aren't attacked. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:20 Trusty wrote: I totally feel the same - no idea how to open now. Lately on certain positions I've just started 2gating (but not committing to an attack), while getting only 50gas for warpgate research, expanding, then adding on more gates + resuming gas. Tech is quite delayed, but feels very safe with option to attack a greedy zerg. This is all of course depends on what I see with probe/zealot poking.. I feel that good players will simply respond to my 2gate correctly by fast roach - most of the people I've been meeting go into turtle mode upon seeing the 2nd gate. Just a thought though - creating pressure / hitting the zerg before his build is ready (7:30 as someone mentioned). This could work on close distance maps, but if you show up with like 1 stalker and 1 zealot and suddenly they have 5 roaches, then not only does your pressure do nothing, but you have a smaller army to defend with. | ||
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GrassEater
Sweden417 Posts
You need good forcefield micro. I saw at some gm stream a toss holding it off this way. 3 gate expand is able to hold this kind of agression with good micro. | ||
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gheyrobot
United States30 Posts
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:35 tskarzyn wrote: Have any toss played around with sending out multiple probes? IE one as decoy, and 1-2 probes taking roundabout routes. You could do that or you send out two zealots which cost 50 minerals more and will kill a couple of zerglings even when going down ^^ | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
Game starts at 35:18 and the timing hits at 40:36. That's at the 5:18 mark. As you can see from the game, Hallucinated Phoenixes come out exactly when the Roaches are at your doorstep. 9 Lings and 9 Roaches is the initial wave, followed quickly by another 6-9 Zerglings. Constant reinforcement of Lings after that. Lings force the Toss to Forcefield while Roaches peel off the Pylons and buildings. Immediate supply block and Probes start dying. Hole in wall leads to death. I'll experiment with the double Zealot scout to see if that yields results. My biggest issue with that is the fact that you leave yourself open to a Zergling runby. | ||
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:40 Cloak wrote: Okay, in an effort to put more solid scientific data in this thread. Here's the documentation behind the first Inca vs. Nestea game of the series (http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65293). Game starts at 35:18 and the timing hits at 40:36. That's at the 5:18 mark. Important note: Thats 07:50 Ingametime. I was really shocked when I read about 9 lings and 9 roaches at 05:18 ^^ You shouldn't open yourself up to a runby with letting loose two zealots at ~07:50 (Especially as you are pumping out at least 2-3 sentries which will keep things sorted out in your base). | ||
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SwordfishConspiracy
United States146 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:40 Cloak wrote: Okay, in an effort to put more solid scientific data in this thread. Here's the documentation behind the first Inca vs. Nestea game of the series (http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65293). Game starts at 35:18 and the timing hits at 40:36. That's at the 5:18 mark. 5 minutes and 18 seconds real life time, yes, but not SC time. The attack hit at the 7:50 mark, and NesTea danced his roaches around for a few seconds trying to dodge the hallucinations. So probably more like 7:30-7:40. that's on Xel'Naga, which has a 30 second rush distance. | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
I'm currently encountering the same issues with 3 gate expand. it just sucks if your first halucinated phoenix flies over the roaches outisde your base and you cant do anything to stop it. I even always get one canon blind, but most of the time its not enough. if it's perfectly executed, you really cannot stop it on maps where the natural is too wide open. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:47 Felo wrote: Important note: Thats 07:50 Ingametime. I was really shocked when I read about 9 lings and 9 roaches at 05:18 ^^ You shouldn't open yourself up to a runby with letting loose two zealots at ~07:50 (Especially as you are pumping out at least 2-3 sentries which will keep things sorted out in your base). I was under the impression that you send out your first 2 Zealots instead of making Zealot/Stalker. So is it something like Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Zealot? I meant a runby during the interim of both your Zealots walking out and waiting on the third Gateway unit. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On May 19 2011 05:03 Mirl wrote: You should try 3 gate+stargate+forge+expand.Void Rays doing amazing job. when you get void rays; 1.At least you kill 1 Overlord(100 mineral) 2.Zerg scared roach&ling all in 3.Zerg get extra quenn or evolution chamber(150 gold) 4.You can kill Creep Tumors 5.you can deny zerg 3rd Base You mean like Alicia vs Losira on metalopolis? http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65189 | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:07 Mirl wrote: 120 supply void/colossi protoss deathball more effective than 160/170 zerg army imo. If you're playing bad zergs. Ling/infestor destroys that build. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote: This thread lacks a lot of "scientific" data. The zerg build hits exactly at 7:30. At what time does hallucination finish ? Does that time allows you to react properly to what you scout ? (ie : will you have time to prepare your defenses ?) What we know : - one gate expo diess - 3 gates sentries die - forge expo dies - every kind of stargate build dies (because lings will ravage your probes before dying to any amount of void rays) That let us with a combination of forge and gates. 3 gate forge with like 1 minute of probes cut would certainly work. Does 2 gates forge without probe cut would work ? 2 canons or 3 ? (or 4 ?) This thread is starting the wrong way, everyone theorycraft without any kind of concrete base. I only play zerg and terran so I won't do the tests for you, but imo you should use a more "scientific" approach to this problem. Where did you get these two points of data from? I've seen that 3gate expo into 5gate dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that dt expand dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that 3gate expo into forge stargate dies from alicia vs losira. I haven't seen games that backup the two points you made that I bolded however. | ||
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:53 Cloak wrote: I was under the impression that you send out your first 2 Zealots instead of making Zealot/Stalker. So is it something like Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Zealot? I meant a runby during the interim of both your Zealots walking out and waiting on the third Gateway unit. I'm getting my first zealot and after that sentries only until my Nexus is building. While my expansion is under construction I'm getting my additional Zealot, Forge and 4th Gateway - theres not too much for your zealots to see if you send them out as your first and third unit but I could see that work as well (Zealot/Sentry/Zealot - you need that sentry to close the gap and to prevent the zerg from nibbling away your wall-off ^^). I start getting my first stalkers after I'm up to 8 Sentries. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On May 19 2011 04:11 gheyrobot wrote: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65293 Nestea knows that inca cannot stop Roach ling and assumes he will go DT. Nestea assumes correctly and blind counter wins. (no hate towards nestea i would give him both my kidneys) This really isn't a blind counter. If you haven't seen your opponent move out to expand at that point two of the most common possibilities are stargate builds or dt builds. That's why the build didn't do direct damage in any of the games. | ||
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