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On May 19 2011 07:16 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote:
This thread lacks a lot of "scientific" data.
The zerg build hits exactly at 7:30.
At what time does hallucination finish ?
Does that time allows you to react properly to what you scout ? (ie : will you have time to prepare your defenses ?)
What we know :
- one gate expo diess
- 3 gates sentries die
- forge expo dies
- every kind of stargate build dies (because lings will ravage your probes before dying to any amount of void rays)
That let us with a combination of forge and gates. 3 gate forge with like 1 minute of probes cut would certainly work. Does 2 gates forge without probe cut would work ? 2 canons or 3 ? (or 4 ?)
This thread is starting the wrong way, everyone theorycraft without any kind of concrete base. I only play zerg and terran so I won't do the tests for you, but imo you should use a more "scientific" approach to this problem. Where did you get these two points of data from? I've seen that 3gate expo into 5gate dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that dt expand dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that 3gate expo into forge stargate dies from alicia vs losira. I haven't seen games that backup the two points you made that I bolded however.
One gate expo (to stargate) died today in GSTL. And on crevasse, which is much more secure than most other maps (inbase natural)
Forge expo I got that from IPL, I think it was kiwi vs idra but I'm not sure.
But if 3 gates expo dies, 1 gate expo should die too.
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With this build being so common I usually try to use a stargate expand, but you have to be careful that they don't just runby and nuke your base if you move out with the void rays.
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On May 19 2011 07:36 ODKStevez wrote:
With this build being so common I usually try to use a stargate expand, but you have to be careful that they don't just runby and nuke your base if you move out with the void rays.
I would love to see a replay of that. How many gates do you make ? I always thought that any build including a stargate is a 100% lose against this (unless you don't expand)
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On May 19 2011 07:35 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 07:16 Jaeger wrote:On May 19 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote:
This thread lacks a lot of "scientific" data.
The zerg build hits exactly at 7:30.
At what time does hallucination finish ?
Does that time allows you to react properly to what you scout ? (ie : will you have time to prepare your defenses ?)
What we know :
- one gate expo diess
- 3 gates sentries die
- forge expo dies
- every kind of stargate build dies (because lings will ravage your probes before dying to any amount of void rays)
That let us with a combination of forge and gates. 3 gate forge with like 1 minute of probes cut would certainly work. Does 2 gates forge without probe cut would work ? 2 canons or 3 ? (or 4 ?)
This thread is starting the wrong way, everyone theorycraft without any kind of concrete base. I only play zerg and terran so I won't do the tests for you, but imo you should use a more "scientific" approach to this problem. Where did you get these two points of data from? I've seen that 3gate expo into 5gate dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that dt expand dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that 3gate expo into forge stargate dies from alicia vs losira. I haven't seen games that backup the two points you made that I bolded however. One gate expo (to stargate) died today in GSTL. And on crevasse, which is much more secure than most other maps (inbase natural) Forge expo I got that from IPL, I think it was kiwi vs idra but I'm not sure. But if 3 gates expo dies, 1 gate expo should die too.
First 1 game does not mean one build doesn't work vs another build. Second he had his gas stolen which delays the voidray a ton.
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On May 19 2011 07:35 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 07:16 Jaeger wrote:On May 19 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote:
This thread lacks a lot of "scientific" data.
The zerg build hits exactly at 7:30.
At what time does hallucination finish ?
Does that time allows you to react properly to what you scout ? (ie : will you have time to prepare your defenses ?)
What we know :
- one gate expo diess
- 3 gates sentries die
- forge expo dies
- every kind of stargate build dies (because lings will ravage your probes before dying to any amount of void rays)
That let us with a combination of forge and gates. 3 gate forge with like 1 minute of probes cut would certainly work. Does 2 gates forge without probe cut would work ? 2 canons or 3 ? (or 4 ?)
This thread is starting the wrong way, everyone theorycraft without any kind of concrete base. I only play zerg and terran so I won't do the tests for you, but imo you should use a more "scientific" approach to this problem. Where did you get these two points of data from? I've seen that 3gate expo into 5gate dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that dt expand dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that 3gate expo into forge stargate dies from alicia vs losira. I haven't seen games that backup the two points you made that I bolded however. One gate expo (to stargate) died today in GSTL. And on crevasse, which is much more secure than most other maps (inbase natural) Forge expo I got that from IPL, I think it was kiwi vs idra but I'm not sure. But if 3 gates expo dies, 1 gate expo should die too.
IIRC kiwi vs idra forge fe was a hatch cancel roach all-in which is completely different and quite holdable kiwi just misplayed it slightly.
Crevasse has more open area on its ramp after killing the rocks than most naturals. Additionally he went gateway nexus core 3gas stargate which is far from usual. The roach ling build in that game was also a much lower economy version than is typically shown as well. (Losira had 34 drones, Nestea had 30, while DongRaeGu had 18)
Although that game does shine some light on the idea someone mentioned earlier about a sacrificial stalker in order to scout what's going on. It doesn't work at all.
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On May 19 2011 04:11 gheyrobot wrote:
While that may work out ok on the ladder i feel that the pvz match up is starting to force both sides to just play guessing games. If this will requiring patching or just further understanding of the game is not for us to say
You think this need a patch ?! And if we look at the thread, you are not the only one to QQ.
I play both Z and P, and Protoss scouting problem is nothing in comparison with Zerg on.
I can tell you for sure, it doesn't require a patch to solve Protoss problem: at worst you can get hallucination first.
What is the cost of hallucination first ? You get a 50/50 gas/mineral opportunity cost when you start reseraching, you get another 50/50 opportunity cost when you reserach warpgate. Both opportiny cost ends around 6min30 (when the warpgate is usually finished).
You also get a delayed warpgate tech, this means less production, i.e. another opportunity cost (you need to make a gateway a bit earlier).
So for less than 200 ressources opportunity cost, the protoss can get guaranted and repeatable scouting info.
That's is way less expensve than a scan and it's 100 time better than loosing 1 overlord to MAYBE get some info.
Idra has been praying everyday to get overlord speed before lair. That's 100/100 mineral/gas opportunity cost. Probably more expensive than getting hallucination first.
Protoss has an easy and "cheap" way of scouting. I'm not saying that you should get hallucination first, there is probably a better solution. Just keep in mind, the only reason you are struggling is because you are trying to get a tiny advantage in comparison with the easy solution.
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with the bigger maps, how does a 15 nexus hold up? you die to cheeses obviously, but does it protect you vs a FE zerg?
i've found chrono boosting an immortal to work wonders with a couple of zealots as support
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Canada13427 Posts
On May 19 2011 07:45 Barrin wrote:
Zealot + Immortal > Zergling + Roach.
Yes, it has the potential to backfire if your immortals are fighting his zerglings and your zealots are fighting his roaches. That's why you don't let that happen.
Try it.
I don't know if this is a viable opening. if you could post replays that would be nice but the tech off one base before expo I'm not sure about since zealot immortal is very slow you can't pressure after a maybe attack anyway. and they can just take a free third if they don't push or they can drone for free.
there's a replay from Alej he posted in another thread but I'm using my phones tl app so I can't grab it till later. I emulate his expo timing and haven't lost to this timing for a few days.
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On May 19 2011 08:07 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 07:45 Barrin wrote:
Zealot + Immortal > Zergling + Roach.
Yes, it has the potential to backfire if your immortals are fighting his zerglings and your zealots are fighting his roaches. That's why you don't let that happen.
Try it. I don't know if this is a viable opening. if you could post replays that would be nice but the tech off one base before expo I'm not sure about since zealot immortal is very slow you can't pressure after a maybe attack anyway. and they can just take a free third if they don't push or they can drone for free. there's a replay from Alej he posted in another thread but I'm using my phones tl app so I can't grab it till later. I emulate his expo timing and haven't lost to this timing for a few days.
your going to call that tech? 2 gate robo is fairly standard in P matchups, and people DT/Voidray expand, theres nothing wrong with immortal expanding in terms of that
It will keep you well defended, you have to wait for the eco boost to kick in regardless of the expansion method so i don't see the problem with using the slower units to take your natural
quick question, is this related to getting too many sentries early when army units are potentially a better defense?
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On May 19 2011 06:16 Felo wrote:
I met Roach/Ling-Allins quite often on the ladder and I'm 3Gate-Sentry-Expanding every game (~1000 Points ML).
In my opinion its still doable under certain circumstances. Those are: Dropping a Forge and a 4th Gateway while your nexus is building, going up to 8 Sentries ASAP and getting some Stalkers afterwards combined with one cannon close to your nexus (You need that to be safe against Burrowpushes anyway).
Now to the important stuff:
First you aren't as blind as a lot of people try to put it - in fact, most of the time getting mapcontrol is as easy as warping in a second zealot and walk up to the Xel-Naga-Towers. Two possibilites:
1.you clean up his scout ling(s) and can proceed to walk up to his base, checking his saturation or how much units he has (Thats why you need 2 btw, because 1 could die to 4 zerglings)
2. He kills two Zealots which requires more zerglings than a zerg would regularly build - guess what could happen
Second: When you realize that all-in is coming - DONT GET MORE STALKERS. I made that mistake for a long time but in fact Zealots are far better in smaller numbers when their prey cant run from them and roaches are neither quick nor big in numbers for this push.
Third: Stay close to your buildings. You have a lot of FFs at your disposal but its still important to use them wisely. I crushed a lot of those pushes without losing a single unit by trapping the roaches close to my buildings with 3 FFs and killing them from afar.
Basically the defense of the push consists of two things: killing the roaches (unimportant) and killing the speedlings (important). The roaches only exist to bait your units out in the open where the speedlings can do the job - as soon as the speedlings are dead you can easily surround the roaches with FFs and finish them off.
But because of that dynamic you have to wait until he sacrifices his Speedlings in any way - if that means that its neccessary to let him take down a pylon/Gate/your Forge then fine - let him get that building, wait for him to stream his speedlings in and place the nail in the coffin - if hes not doing that you are fine as well for obvious reasons.
tl;dr-Version:
* Get a Forge and a Gateway while expanding
* Use a group of two zealots to scout
* If the all-in is coming stall your Stalkerproduktion, pump out zealots
* Stay close to your buildings
* Utilize your buildings/FFs to trap speedlings and be able to kill them
* Be patient, don't go out in the open until you are sure that there's no mob of speedlings waiting for you
Can you and other master league players upload their replays to show us to safely do a 3 gate sentry expand (or any other opening that works at that level of play)? Thanks!
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On May 19 2011 07:45 Barrin wrote:
Zealot + Immortal > Zergling + Roach.
Yes, it has the potential to backfire if your immortals are fighting his zerglings and your zealots are fighting his roaches. That's why you don't let that happen.
Try it.
Easy for you to say that. At higher levels of play such as masters, the ZERG chooses the fight.
The speedlings are able to choose whichever targets he wants to fight, which are the immortals.
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Answer is way simpler than you guys seem to realize.
1.) Get hallucinate before warpgate
2.) Use reduced sentry build time to still get the normal amount of sentries before expanding
3.) If you scout the roach/ling bust, make your cannons reactively (not blindly)
4.) You're now safely playing a normal macro game.
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On May 19 2011 08:13 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 07:45 Barrin wrote:
Zealot + Immortal > Zergling + Roach.
Yes, it has the potential to backfire if your immortals are fighting his zerglings and your zealots are fighting his roaches. That's why you don't let that happen.
Try it. Easy for you to say that. At higher levels of play such as masters, the ZERG chooses the fight. The speedlings are able to choose whichever targets he wants to fight, which are the immortals.
keep the zealots around the immortal, it's more effort into micro than the zerg is putting in, but it should stop the lings destroying the immortal
although this opens issues with places your zealots/immortal aren't, careful defensive positioning is required
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(Mid-level masters)
I Forge FE on every map. Usually nexus first if he does an econ based 14 pool. And I get greedy if he goes hatch first. (Basically don't cut probes and chrono them constantly, then get a gateway before my cannon) I rarely die to early pressure. Yes the timing is tight but I get 1 zealot and 2 cannons always. Then depending on his drone count, (I constantly scout with my probe till ling speed finishes, since he cant stop me) I get stalkers/1-2 more cannons if I anticipate roach/ling pressure or go mass sentry and tech up and expand again off 7+ gates and/or robo. Pretty simple. Basically 3-4 stalkers and cannons will stop his push.
The problem is that a lot of protoss have forgot how to play defense and have cut a lot of corners. 1 cannon at your natural is mandatory and 2 is standard. My cannons easily get 10+ kills a piece after roach/ling aggression. Cannons are needed in PvZ and are extremely useful defensively and inhibit a lot of multi-pronged attacks by Zerg. Cannons and proper wall off are all you need.
As for sentry expand I really like the early sentries but ya that army is weak and flimsy till you warp in your first round of stalkers. But will so may FFs and 1-2 cannons i cant see you dying to roach/ling without poor micro by your sentries. Just FF off the roaches and deal with the lings and protect your cannons and probes. Free hits on buildings is fine and preferable. I have no problem losing a forge and gateway to roaches. As long as you don't lose sentries, cannons, or probes you are fine. Basically stall till you can warp in 4 stalkers, then counter attack and rebuild buildings to re-wall off. By that time his second wave has come in and you now have 4 more stalkers. Rinse, repeat. Eventually you will have too much stuff and counter push to his natural while you probe and tech up. Then fall back and you now have the lead in econ and prob tech as well. 2 of the 3 pillars to Starcraft success.
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On May 19 2011 08:13 MrBitter wrote:
Answer is way simpler than you guys seem to realize.
1.) Get hallucinate before warpgate
2.) Use reduced sentry build time to still get the normal amount of sentries before expanding
3.) If you scout the roach/ling bust, make your cannons reactively (not blindly)
4.) You're now safely playing a normal macro game.
This, like everything else, comes at a cost. This scout timing is not as relevant as the advice Felo gave, which I personally vouch for as well. The reason is that any good/smart zerg, yourself include i'm sure, will know whats up when the hallucinate scout comes that early on and will know he is completely safe to drone with no threat of an attack. The tradeoff, then, is offensive power which doesn't fit into the standard protoss gameplan of poking and prodding to get a reaction. To effectively poke/prod you have to have at least the ability to launch a poweful attack. Missing 3 warp in cycles worth of units because of 80 seconds hallucinate research substantially limits your offensive threat.
The drawbacks to Felos advice are sort of alread built into the 3 gate sentry expand build... that is, you are making a decision to play from behind all game and trying to get to an efficient army that can almost instantly make up for the fact that youve been behind this whole time. Protoss is conditioned to playing from behind like this, but I dont think the new high level game will allow for that much longer. I think aggression and keeping pace will have to be figured out because zergs are getting so good at utilizing their innate food lead and doing real damage.
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The opening also needs to be muta-safe, not just safe against roach/ling. Usually getting an early robo triggers the spire. So if the viable opening involves getting a robo pre-expand, then it probably needs to be able to flow into a timing attack that would defeat a zerg who techs to spire after scouting your early robo with a sacrificial overlord.
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On May 19 2011 07:58 Crabman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 07:35 MrCon wrote:On May 19 2011 07:16 Jaeger wrote:On May 19 2011 06:06 MrCon wrote:
This thread lacks a lot of "scientific" data.
The zerg build hits exactly at 7:30.
At what time does hallucination finish ?
Does that time allows you to react properly to what you scout ? (ie : will you have time to prepare your defenses ?)
What we know :
- one gate expo diess
- 3 gates sentries die
- forge expo dies
- every kind of stargate build dies (because lings will ravage your probes before dying to any amount of void rays)
That let us with a combination of forge and gates. 3 gate forge with like 1 minute of probes cut would certainly work. Does 2 gates forge without probe cut would work ? 2 canons or 3 ? (or 4 ?)
This thread is starting the wrong way, everyone theorycraft without any kind of concrete base. I only play zerg and terran so I won't do the tests for you, but imo you should use a more "scientific" approach to this problem. Where did you get these two points of data from? I've seen that 3gate expo into 5gate dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that dt expand dies from inca vs nestea. I've seen that 3gate expo into forge stargate dies from alicia vs losira. I haven't seen games that backup the two points you made that I bolded however. One gate expo (to stargate) died today in GSTL. And on crevasse, which is much more secure than most other maps (inbase natural) Forge expo I got that from IPL, I think it was kiwi vs idra but I'm not sure. But if 3 gates expo dies, 1 gate expo should die too. First 1 game does not mean one build doesn't work vs another build. Second he had his gas stolen which delays the voidray a ton.
I don't say one game mean anything. But I still see a lot of theorycraft, and I've still yet to see a televised game where this build fails. And I've seen this build more than 20 times on TV (or stream). I would love to see a replay or a vod of someone holding this.
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On May 19 2011 08:22 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 08:13 MrBitter wrote:
Answer is way simpler than you guys seem to realize.
1.) Get hallucinate before warpgate
2.) Use reduced sentry build time to still get the normal amount of sentries before expanding
3.) If you scout the roach/ling bust, make your cannons reactively (not blindly)
4.) You're now safely playing a normal macro game. This, like everything else, comes at a cost. This scout timing is not as relevant as the advice Felo gave, which I personally vouch for as well. The reason is that any good/smart zerg, yourself include i'm sure, will know whats up when the hallucinate scout comes that early on and will know he is completely safe to drone with no threat of an attack. The tradeoff, then, is offensive power which doesn't fit into the standard protoss gameplan of poking and prodding to get a reaction. To effectively poke/prod you have to have at least the ability to launch a poweful attack. Missing 3 warp in cycles worth of units because of 80 seconds hallucinate research substantially limits your offensive threat.
You're not missing 3 warp-in cycles. You're getting the same number of sentries, and losing maybe 1/2 of a warpgate production cycle.
Gateways production is still production.
And this trade-off that you mention is just part of playing the game...
If Zerg is going to react to your scout and cut corners by droning more, then you need to be looking for similar ways to power your own economy, like spending all your chrono on probes rather than hammering out upgrades or more units.
(Or you could just chrono your gateways and push anyway, punishing Z for being greedy)
My point is this:
If you have a problem.
And I offer a solution.
There will always be some other "what if" element.
"WTF, DTs keep killing all my drones."
"Make spores."
"But if I do that I have to sacrifice drones anyway."
"So make overseers."
"But if I do that I'm losing gas and slowing my tech."
And on and on and on....
Trade-offs happen. That's part of the exchange that makes the game exciting. The key is making better trades than the other player so that you can create large enough advantages to win games.
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On May 19 2011 08:22 Jayrod wrote:Protoss is conditioned to playing from behind like this, but I dont think the new high level game will allow for that much longer. I think aggression and keeping pace will have to be figured out because zergs are getting so good at utilizing their innate food lead and doing real damage.
1.) Well executed 3 Gate expand is not behind in anything.
2.) Food count doesn't tell that much.. Yes Zerg might be ahead in supply, but that's because Zerg T1 has a higher supply/cost ratio than protoss units, while some of the Zerg's production "buildings" (Queens) cost supply as well.
+ Show Spoiler +
Roaches/Zergling = 50 Resources /1 Supply
Sentry = 75 Resources / 1 Supply
Stalker = 87,5 Resources / 1 Supply
Actually on a small map like Xel Naga a toss can easily block Hatch first builds and the Zerg will be behind in worker count for at least 6 minutes (and therefore, the Zerg will have mined way less minerals). If the toss pushes out (or the Zerg is building units) the toss will stay ahead in worker count until 2 base saturation. This of course doesnt apply if the Toss is playing poorly, meaning, his build is not refined as well as it could be, his forcefields are bad, his building placement is bad and he is not using chronoboost on probes.
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EPT
