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BjC
England181 Posts
I just feel i either one base all in, which against good zerg gets stopped alot of time or i try a expand build that i feel like im either going to die any second or am so defensive the zerg just take more bases. Im going to try some of your guys suggestions. Bump to thread ^^ =) | ||
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gheyrobot
United States30 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Scrubington
Canada475 Posts
On May 19 2011 08:13 MrBitter wrote: Answer is way simpler than you guys seem to realize. 1.) Get hallucinate before warpgate 2.) Use reduced sentry build time to still get the normal amount of sentries before expanding 3.) If you scout the roach/ling bust, make your cannons reactively (not blindly) 4.) You're now safely playing a normal macro game. Low Master 'toss here. I'm going to have to agree with this. In addition to this good cannon placement/building placement at your natural expansion is essential. As well as taking both watchtowers with a couple of zealots and flawless forcefield placement, and knowing the timing of the push. (usually around the 7 minute mark). Knowing when he's pushing out is key. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
On May 19 2011 08:29 MrBitter wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 19 2011 08:22 Jayrod wrote: This, like everything else, comes at a cost. This scout timing is not as relevant as the advice Felo gave, which I personally vouch for as well. The reason is that any good/smart zerg, yourself include i'm sure, will know whats up when the hallucinate scout comes that early on and will know he is completely safe to drone with no threat of an attack. The tradeoff, then, is offensive power which doesn't fit into the standard protoss gameplan of poking and prodding to get a reaction. To effectively poke/prod you have to have at least the ability to launch a poweful attack. Missing 3 warp in cycles worth of units because of 80 seconds hallucinate research substantially limits your offensive threat. You're not missing 3 warp-in cycles. You're getting the same number of sentries, and losing maybe 1/2 of a warpgate production cycle. Gateways production is still production. And this trade-off that you mention is just part of playing the game... If Zerg is going to react to your scout and cut corners by droning more, then you need to be looking for similar ways to power your own economy, like spending all your chrono on probes rather than hammering out upgrades or more units. (Or you could just chrono your gateways and push anyway, punishing Z for being greedy) My point is this: If you have a problem. And I offer a solution. There will always be some other "what if" element. "WTF, DTs keep killing all my drones." "Make spores." "But if I do that I have to sacrifice drones anyway." "So make overseers." "But if I do that I'm losing gas and slowing my tech." And on and on and on.... Trade-offs happen. That's part of the exchange that makes the game exciting. The key is making better trades than the other player so that you can create large enough advantages to win games. Mr Bitter, you have a way of stating things extremely well. It does seem to make sense as the sentry normal build time has been reduced... if you're going sentry heavy in the beginning you don't need warpgates as fast and you gain the ability to scout... I like. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
immortal zealot *-* and put the overgas into phoenix for map control and queen sniping, always keep energy on the phoenix so they can support your army while fighting ^^ (one voidray is always fun to force more queens and delay the push while being save against really early roaches). have to scout for the hydra den though, the only scary thing, though armor upgrades and zealot speed and sentry guardian shield for the win (or atleast until lovely storm is out). Only thing that gets me is if i miss the mass hydra switch. Toss has the hardest time getting up their natural early, because unlike terran they aren't able to build it anywhere. And well zerg, once the a hatch is up you have a cliff like defense building itself up, called creep and an army production structure as well hehe. But if you wanna stick with sentrys you have to have a good canon and building placement and need any sort of fast scout, which is the halluzination probably. you can also place the canon out of roach range, so 1 grid more behind the buildings so to say. They can attack the buildings that way, but you can force field them into the canon range. and they have no chance to fire back. (takes up alot of energy though, so better be sure you do lots of roach kills, one canon as a bait is always a good idea) I also like the warp prism if my opponent likes to siege me early game (though it means i have to open with sentrys, which are not my fav). Because 3 zealots in the natural 1 zealot in the main + 2 zealot warp in = terrible eco damage. And well from there alot of stuff can happen. I prefer the scenario of giving up my expansion walling of my ramp and if the zerg pulls back their own ramp will be force fielded as well and they'll lose all their tech+one mining base. a fast +1 attack upgade is also really good against the ling roach combination. But i guess if you can't hold your fast expansion play a harass or tech style. and do a double expansion once you are able to fight of a neverending zerg stream. and its really common to have a high winrate vs 2 races and lose terrible to one race. (atleast platin/master). As the system isn't really using a different rating for each matchup. To get zergs at your level to have a better training effect, you could use different builds against the other races that way you will learn more in all matchups (means you lose a lil more though). | ||
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Anomyme
8 Posts
zerg = extremly broken and can totally be op or bad toss = strong but weak User was warned for this post | ||
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NguN
Australia1322 Posts
This build will have cannons are your natural a lot quicker then a 3 gate sentry expo, because you'll have the forge already. Add 2 more gates to make a nice wall behind 2 cannons. This will make you safe, but unable to pressure for a timing before your 2 warpgates at your natural kick in | ||
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Scrubington
Canada475 Posts
On May 20 2011 00:24 Anomyme wrote: terran = extremly op since beta till now zerg = extremly broken and can totally be op or bad toss = strong but weak I can get behind that. Pretty much feel the same way, I think a lot of people do. | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
On May 20 2011 00:24 Anomyme wrote: terran = extremly op since beta till now zerg = extremly broken and can totally be op or bad toss = strong but weak Feel the same way | ||
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donnerpartyallnight
United States5 Posts
With the zerg push hitting at just past 7:00, try for a 2 gate expand into 3 gate forge robo or 5 gate forge build on 2 bases. Your expo goes down near 5:00 (~35 food), giving you enough time to secure your natural and get a reasonable army by the time the push hits. Digging through my replay pool now, I'll get back when I find one of these. I haven't laddered since the patch, but testing the build order actually shows the 2 gate expand timing is a little more crisp after the WG nerf. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
Alternatively, what about 2 gate zealot pressure into forge FE and then taking all your gasses at a much later time? (throwing down 2-3 cannons pre emptively) | ||
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Zekky
Switzerland22 Posts
9 - Pylon 11 - Chrono Nexus 12 - Gateway 13 - Chrono Nexus 14 - Gas 16 - Pylon 16/17 - Core 18 - Zealot 20 - Gas 20 - Chrono Nexus 24 - Sentry (Chrono'd, After zealot finishes) 24 - Pylon 26 - Hallucination (unfortunately the cyber core is idle for a while due to lack of gas) 26 - Chrono Nexus 30 - Sentry (Chrono'd) 30 - Pylon 32 - Sentry 32 - Two Gateways 32 - Warpgate research (right after hallucination finishes) With this build you have 1 zealot, 3 sentries with hallucination (the first sentry gets 100 energy as hallucination research finishes) and enough money to build at nexus at around 6 minutes. Of course warpgate is delayed significantly but this exchanged for the ability to scout the entire zerg base at approximately 6:30. I didn't chronoboost hallucination as it comes out too early to make use of it then, however it could be better to do so as warpgate research would finish sooner as well. | ||
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TheKRoc
United States74 Posts
1. Build a wall from the ramp to your nat Nexus immediately every game, with whatever you can put up there (Pylons, anything). Begin immediately walling from the other side of the Nexus to as close as you can get to the back of the natural area; be sure to use the Geyser as a peice of the wall to save time. Don't put buildings anywhere other than the wall, and you will get far enough before Roach / Ling pressure comes. This helps because as you give your sentry based army a more protected position, it becomes harder for Zerg to maintain effiency with Roaches and Zerglings. You would be really suprised how long you can hold with just great positioning and a couple sentries. 2. When you see the units coming, don't warp in anything else other than Stalkers for a while. It might help to run off of less gas and more minerals. People seem to have this idea that when you start getting hit with R/L you can just keep building the same shit, but it just doesnt work well against sustained foreward pressure. In other words, if you don't get Stalkers fast, all of your shit up front will inevitably die. 3. Remember to Chronoboost Gateways, and immediately throw down a fourth. The chronoboost is key to survival, and the fourth gate will help you to break out and get a bit of map control around your natural after you assure survival. Don't throw down a fifth gate though, because you really can never be 100% sure you won't lose your Nexus to this pressure. If you have four working Gateways, you can generally put up an OK fight against a saturated 2 Base Zerg, and hopefully reestablish your natural at a disadvantage rather than just losing. 4. Probe scout the front at 6:30, and try to see some gases. If there is shit up front that kills your probe, than you better start preparing. It's not "unscoutable" like you say; for the pressure to really be worth anything it requires two or three cycles of injects, so you have a solid 1:30 window to see units popping. I hope some of this helps those who are experiencing problems with 3GFE when pressured like this. Feel free to PM me on TL if anyone needs anything else  | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On May 20 2011 01:41 donnerpartyallnight wrote: Everyone who is citing the Inca v Nestea series is wasting their time. Inca was off his game (by his own admission), had awful micro, and forgot to build any cannons at his front in all four of those sets. Additionally he kept trying the same DT build that wasted a ton of resources that could have been spent defensively. Those games are worth almost nothing academically. With the zerg push hitting at just past 7:00, try for a 2 gate expand into 3 gate forge robo or 5 gate forge build on 2 bases. Your expo goes down near 5:00 (~35 food), giving you enough time to secure your natural and get a reasonable army by the time the push hits. Digging through my replay pool now, I'll get back when I find one of these. I haven't laddered since the patch, but testing the build order actually shows the 2 gate expand timing is a little more crisp after the WG nerf. Umm, the game one build from inca was actually freaking awesome. He did a 3gate sentry expand but skipped a zealot and went stalker first. This gave him the ability to bully early lings and overlords and didn't slow down his 3gates like most builds that get a stalker because he skipped the zealot. He got his expansion up 30 seconds earlier than normal and quite safely. Got a ton of probes, 5 quick gateways the normal amount of sentries, but a lot of stalkers early. He was actually quite close to holding that off. If he perhaps placed his pylons slightly differently at his natural or had 2 more forcefields by only making one hallucinated phoenix or had cancelled and cut probes when he scouted the rush he could've held and been in a strong position for the midgame. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:16 Felo wrote: + Show Spoiler + I met Roach/Ling-Allins quite often on the ladder and I'm 3Gate-Sentry-Expanding every game (~1000 Points ML). In my opinion its still doable under certain circumstances. Those are: Dropping a Forge and a 4th Gateway while your nexus is building, going up to 8 Sentries ASAP and getting some Stalkers afterwards combined with one cannon close to your nexus (You need that to be safe against Burrowpushes anyway). Now to the important stuff: First you aren't as blind as a lot of people try to put it - in fact, most of the time getting mapcontrol is as easy as warping in a second zealot and walk up to the Xel-Naga-Towers. Two possibilites: 1.you clean up his scout ling(s) and can proceed to walk up to his base, checking his saturation or how much units he has (Thats why you need 2 btw, because 1 could die to 4 zerglings) 2. He kills two Zealots which requires more zerglings than a zerg would regularly build - guess what could happen Second: When you realize that all-in is coming - DONT GET MORE STALKERS. I made that mistake for a long time but in fact Zealots are far better in smaller numbers when their prey cant run from them and roaches are neither quick nor big in numbers for this push. Third: Stay close to your buildings. You have a lot of FFs at your disposal but its still important to use them wisely. I crushed a lot of those pushes without losing a single unit by trapping the roaches close to my buildings with 3 FFs and killing them from afar. Basically the defense of the push consists of two things: killing the roaches (unimportant) and killing the speedlings (important). The roaches only exist to bait your units out in the open where the speedlings can do the job - as soon as the speedlings are dead you can easily surround the roaches with FFs and finish them off. But because of that dynamic you have to wait until he sacrifices his Speedlings in any way - if that means that its neccessary to let him take down a pylon/Gate/your Forge then fine - let him get that building, wait for him to stream his speedlings in and place the nail in the coffin - if hes not doing that you are fine as well for obvious reasons. tl;dr-Version: * Get a Forge and a Gateway while expanding * Use a group of two zealots to scout * If the all-in is coming stall your Stalkerproduktion, pump out zealots * Stay close to your buildings * Utilize your buildings/FFs to trap speedlings and be able to kill them * Be patient, don't go out in the open until you are sure that there's no mob of speedlings waiting for you I really really like the 2 Zealot approach. Not just does an initial Zealot-and-2-Sentry-Warpin fit in much better than 3 Sentries if you intend to get Hallucination ASAP. It also gives that first Zealot an early purpose beyond securing your ramp-gap. In addition, if you hug cliffs with these 2 Zealots, while moving accross the map, Zerg needs more than 3 sets of Zerglings to kill them, which may be a too costly cut in Drones that early on (because the 30 Drones Roach/Ling Attack apperantly has a pretty tight Buildorder and timing window), and therefore seems to be unlikely to happen. At last this approach is just a minor adjustment to the otherwise solid 3Gate-Expand compared to the advice "DT/Star-Expand instead" and "Hallucination before WG" (which is rather bumpy and completely kills the option to switch to agression instead of expanding). In combination with the other advice given by Felo, his Post appears (at least to me) as the best approach to this problem so far. Mad probs to you Felo! | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
Well tough luck that build cannot hold this if it is executed properly Yes, it can, you just have to have very good forcefields. Also, people are making too big of a deal about Nestea's spinecrawler rush. You can ONLY do that when the Nexus is part of the wall...which is extremely rare, as it's both map and player dependent. Also, a couple scouting tips as toss vs zerg with speed. If you shark around with your zealot and sentries, and kill the nearest scouting lings, you can often sneak a probe out and get a good look at your opponent's base, after which, the game should be yours. the roach ling all-in is very dependent on denying scouting. | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
Tomorrow I will try if you can hold it with 4 gates instead of 3 gate forge. The forge in this build was originally only for being safe against a roach burrow attack (which hits before your first observer after 3 gate epand). I can imagine, that you can scout the lair with hallucination and cut unit production to get the forge and a canon to be safe vs the burrow attack. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On May 20 2011 05:50 WrathOfAiur wrote: So I tested all day and came to the conclusion, that it is impossible to hold roach/ling all in with 3 gate forge, no matter if you go hallucination first or not. You only scout it a few seconds earlier, because the sentries need to pool energy for a long time to use hallucinate. It's not enough time to get canons up on a map with medium rush distance. Tomorrow I will try if you can hold it with 4 gates instead of 3 gate forge. The forge in this build was originally only for being safe against a roach burrow attack (which hits before your first observer after 3 gate epand). I can imagine, that you can scout the lair with hallucination and cut unit production to get the forge and a canon to be safe vs the burrow attack. What's the point of 4th Gate instead of Forge? It costs the same, needs more time to warp in and from the point you build it until Zergs attack hits you can at best warp in 2 Units, while you can plant virtually infinity cannons at once with forge. In addition cannons are by far the strongest defence you can get for your money. If you cant hold the attack with Cannons you certainly wount without. Imho you should get your Forge AND a 4th Gate immediatly after your Nexus starts. By that time your Main is nearly oversaturated, so you can "comfortably" cut some probes to afford 3 full rounds of production out of all your gates aswell as these Buildings and 2-3 cannons until Hallucination finishes and you know for sure if he is going for the timing or not. If he does, your defense should now be strong enough to deflect his attack. If he does not you can immediatly switch to agression yourself to make up for the potential deficit in workers and your "wasted" cannons now protect you from potential ling backstabs while you are pressuring his front. In addition Forge _and_ 4th Gate already forms a strong wall and on some maps (like Metal 12, 3, 6) enables a solid wall with your Nexus. As mentioned before I think the real issue with 3 Gate Expand was P's cuting to much corners. Yes, you have to play safer now, but its not the end of the World. This Opening is still viable. | ||
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