EPT
[D] Roach ling all in/agression, how does P expo? - Page 7
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Mcawesome
11 Posts
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Mcawesome
11 Posts
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SeriouR
Spain622 Posts
I don't really post much in the strategy forums so feel free to warm me if i say something which is not apropiated or pointless. I've been watching a lot LiquidTyler's stream lately and i noticed that he always opens the same way in PvZ in almost every game of PvZ. He high eco 2 gate rushes into fast expo and forge before gas. That build, which may seem weird at first look, is actually really strong for a reson: it puts a lot of pressure to the zerg. With 4 gate not being a real issue anymore, air builds and DTs having a similar and very figured out timing and responce and blink builds being only good on certain maps, the zerg player can pretty much assume that you are going 3 gate expand, that meaning that he is free to act at will, either preparing their 2 base timing or droning like crazy. With 3 gate expand you can put pressure into your oponent and that worked pretty well for a while but now that players have improved it doesn't work anymore, zergs know what they can get away with and what they can't not. That's why two gate expand is so awesome in my opinion, it can defend most all ins, it puts a ton of pressure into your oponent and it gives you the economy to really commit to a tech path without making too many shortcuts (see rushing to DTs, VR or colossi). I would love to hear the opinion of those of you who have messed around with this build a little bit and the possible flaws and timings that it might open. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
The most important thing is to NOT PANIC, your nexus has 2000 hp, it's fine, slowly gain a unit advantage and pick of units with ff's when you can. | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
On May 20 2011 06:23 Xanatoss wrote: What's the point of 4th Gate instead of Forge? It costs the same, needs more time to warp in and from the point you build it until Zergs attack hits you can at best warp in 2 Units, while you can plant virtually infinity cannons at once with forge. In addition cannons are by far the strongest defence you can get for your money. If you cant hold the attack with Cannons you certainly wount without. Imho you should get your Forge AND a 4th Gate immediatly after your Nexus starts. By that time your Main is nearly oversaturated, so you can "comfortably" cut some probes to afford 3 full rounds of production out of all your gates aswell as these Buildings and 2-3 cannons until Hallucination finishes and you know for sure if he is going for the timing or not. If he does, your defense should now be strong enough to deflect his attack. If he does not you can immediatly switch to agression yourself to make up for the potential deficit in workers and your "wasted" cannons now protect you from potential ling backstabs while you are pressuring his front. In addition Forge _and_ 4th Gate already forms a strong wall and on some maps (like Metal 12, 3, 6) enables a solid wall with your Nexus. As mentioned before I think the real issue with 3 Gate Expand was P's cuting to much corners. Yes, you have to play safer now, but its not the end of the World. This Opening is still viable. you can only hold it with canons if you build more than one blindly. And that's just not an option, because if the attack never comes and the zerg droned, you are soooooo behind. that's not what playing safer means. this way you outright loose against a droning zerg, because you cant use canons to put pressure on and force units. making a complete wall-off like you suggest is also REALLY bad. if you encouter a smart zerg, he will just kill pylons and buildings with his roaches and wait with the lings and continue to mass units. as soon as the wall is picked of, the lings come in to play. you can use buildings to narrow the attack surface, but never in a fashion that your units cant reach the zerg's roaches properly. putting down 4 gates and a forge won't do anything. you just can't get the canons up in time and you have to cut gateway production for it. so if you plan on getting canons anyway, 3 gates is enough. | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
On May 20 2011 06:50 Minigun wrote: Definitely not impossible to hold. You just have to have very very good micro, and very very good force fields, which people in the lower leagues obviously lack. Timings in this game are so important. If u expand at 35food, your forge should go up as soon as u can afford it as part of your wall. You then put a cannon, not too far out, but then again not too far in, it needs to be put where you can cover it easy, but it is also in range of their units. Once you see they are all ining, you immediately throw down a 2nd cannon, and make units priority over probes until safe. The most important thing is to NOT PANIC, your nexus has 2000 hp, it's fine, slowly gain a unit advantage and pick of units with ff's when you can. and that's exactly what does not work anymore. It used to work a month or two ago. But the builds got so refined, that it just wont do it. It took the zergs a while to realize, that the roach range buff is actually huge for this timing. Please show me replays of holding a good executed all-in on a map with a wider natural, like xel-naga caverns. I would love to see how you can do it. When the zerg attacks off of 25 drones, it's not even close in my experience. The hallucinated phoenix sees the roaches just outside of your base and one canon just finished. and then you just die. I would LOVE to see a replay how you defend the attack off of 25 drones. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
It sucks that protoss is always playing from behind in this matchup but lets be real; thats how PvZ was on BW too, with zerg being free to take 5 expos right off the bat and you have to outplay them with DT/corsair.. so SC2 is the same thing really, except storm is significantly weaker in SC2 | ||
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Enyalus
United States135 Posts
I'm not a Protoss player, and I don't know how the econ management would break down. But if it works it could be interesting. All you'd need to worry about is banelings. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
-Build cannons 0-25s before hallucinating a phoenix (depends on map & timings) -Send phoenix out over the road roaches would take to reach your base -See roaches: good, your cannons will arrive just in time. No roaches, prepare to cancel cannons but fly around their base a bit to make sure. Confirm no roaches, cancel cannons and make gates or something. This way, you're safe if he attacks and only lose a few minerals from cancel cannons if he doesn't (plus your additional gates will be a bit later). You want the forge anyways for upgrades, no loss there. With a little effort someone could probably work out a way to have 1-2 chronoboosts available when hallucinate completes. Safe = chrono probes, Danger = chrono gates. Is this flawed in some way? It seems really solid to me. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 20 2011 06:50 Minigun wrote: Definitely not impossible to hold. You just have to have very very good micro, and very very good force fields, which people in the lower leagues obviously lack. Timings in this game are so important. If u expand at 35food, your forge should go up as soon as u can afford it as part of your wall. You then put a cannon, not too far out, but then again not too far in, it needs to be put where you can cover it easy, but it is also in range of their units. Once you see they are all ining, you immediately throw down a 2nd cannon, and make units priority over probes until safe. The most important thing is to NOT PANIC, your nexus has 2000 hp, it's fine, slowly gain a unit advantage and pick of units with ff's when you can. I thought the idea was that it's not supposed to be impossible to hold, it's just supposed to force you to blow your FF energy on defending and maybe kill some sentries, leaving z safe to drone up his third since toss can't move out with no-energy sentries. Winning outright is more like a bonus when the protoss screws up  | ||
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DuckS
United States845 Posts
just get 2-3 cannons if you don't feel comfy, land decent forcefields and manage your units correctly, it will be cake. | ||
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cmizzles
38 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 20 2011 08:10 cmizzles wrote: I think too often people want strategies or builds that will always produce wins for them, pretty much trying to hard counter what their opponent is doing. However, the fact is at high levels, you're never going to have perfect information so you have to just make assumptions. Each build is obviously going to have pros and cons, to say that you cant do a build because if the zerg does this than i'm so far behind seems kind of silly. That being said, Tyler's 2 gateway forget expand will almost guarantee you get your expo up, but the zerg can than comfortably take a quick third due to your delayed warp gate and tech. Also something i've been theorizing but i havent actually tried yet, is to go 3 gate 1 gas expand, and just show zerg a handful of stalkers and zealots, so now he cant comfortably drone, or go for roach ling aggression, your expo might be slightly later, although maybe not as late as you might think since you're only mining one gas. The downside of this of course is that you have a lower sentry count and lower energy on your sentries. The natural and 3rd set up is definitely something to consider as well. On a map like xel naga 3 gate sentry expand is much more risky than a map like shakuras or shattered temple. You don't have to get hallucination. If he gets a quick 3rd, instead of getting the 2nd cannon you can easily get 3 gates and do a 6 gate push + 1 timing attack. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
Regardless, forge FE lets the zerg take a very quick 3rd, this wouldn't be that different, and considering your early zealots will force more lings, he won't be high on economy | ||
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GeZZa07
Australia75 Posts
There are a couple things you can look out for especially spawning positions. A Zerg is much more likely to use this aggressive style in close positions Meta then far or air, for two reasons; faster reinforcement route but more importantly they don’t want to extend this to a major macro game where standard play can benefit the Protoss. Knowing this, when you spawn CP you need to be sure sure your gateways/warpgates are always flashing, even if the Zerg decides to drone you can use these units offensively to punish him later. In preparing for this, you need a good simcity, the Zerg even with an overwhelming force cannot engage from within an artificial choke. I can’t explain how to do it, but as a zerg user the difference is light and day. The second thing you can do is effective forcefields and keepings those sentry alive, you must use these wisely, the Zerg player will use his roaches to pick at your buildings (my priority is cannons [constructing or established] + critical pylons + nexus) with a hitsquad of lings in the back to surround if you venture out to far. If you venture out to far, you will lose to the Zerg’s forces. Therefore whenever the Zerg starts hitting your nexus, move your stalkers out and put down some dps, the Zerg will return fire and probably try and focus stalkers, drop the forcefields at which point the Zerg will retreat and you can pick off some stragglers. Rinse repeat until you have got enough cannons that roaches picking buildings becomes ineffective and the game will then move into the midgame. Remember this type of aggression forces the game into a battle of attrition, the Zerg needs to do a substantial amount of damage (probes or a nexus kill) or outright win. This kinda feels like what happens when a Zerg gets 4gated, its not fun, whilst the battle may seem short it seems like an eternity, having a couple units out of position will cost you the game. I don’t believe rushing VR or DT are effective ways to stop this, as this form of aggression will hit substantially before DT’s become an issue, and even if you are able to chrono out a voidray, that investment may have already cost you your army + your nexus. In close positions meta, 2 base Protoss play is much effective then one base builds, which are equally effective from all positions (far and air). | ||
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Tossup
United States208 Posts
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong744 Posts
On May 20 2011 06:50 Minigun wrote: Definitely not impossible to hold. You just have to have very very good micro, and very very good force fields, which people in the lower leagues obviously lack. Timings in this game are so important. If u expand at 35food, your forge should go up as soon as u can afford it as part of your wall. You then put a cannon, not too far out, but then again not too far in, it needs to be put where you can cover it easy, but it is also in range of their units. Once you see they are all ining, you immediately throw down a 2nd cannon, and make units priority over probes until safe. The most important thing is to NOT PANIC, your nexus has 2000 hp, it's fine, slowly gain a unit advantage and pick of units with ff's when you can. Got a lot of respect for your gaming skill/knowledge minigun, but can you explain how exactly do you see they are all ining before its way too late? A good zerg will always have control of the watch towers and have speedlings near the entrance of your base to prevent probes from leaving right? And sacking units to scout doesn't seem to be a good idea especially when you need everything to defend this. Also, so what do you suggest for your normal diamond ladder joes who precisely don't have the 'very very good micro and very very good force fields'? I know "just get better" is a legit reply, but is there anything else? I'm sure protoss players don't exactly want to throw away like every single one of their PvZ games while improving haha. | ||
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JustAGame
Germany161 Posts
On May 20 2011 09:27 Zealot Lord wrote: Got a lot of respect for your gaming skill/knowledge minigun, but can you explain how exactly do you see they are all ining before its way too late? A good zerg will always have control of the watch towers and have speedlings near the entrance of your base to prevent probes from leaving right? And sacking units to scout doesn't seem to be a good idea especially when you need everything to defend this. Also, so what do you suggest for your normal diamond ladder joes who precisely don't have the 'very very good micro and very very good force fields'? I know "just get better" is a legit reply, but is there anything else? I'm sure protoss players don't exactly want to throw away like every single one of their PvZ games while improving haha. If you get the typical unit composition you do not even need to scout it. The most common mistake toss players are making is connecting the wall to the nexus. This blocks your units on the wrong side of the Nexus ( as seen in Nastea vs InCa). The Toss can't protect the pylon at the ramp and cant get any good forcefields there. Place the second gate (the one close to the Nexus) so there is still space to move, you can have your army sit there (pm for demo on the sim city). Any attacking lings and roaches can be trapped there with forcefields and you can defend. (i know the micro isn't that easy, but its possible without 500 apm) You might need to pull probes back to the main for a few seconds, but that's it, you should be ahead after anyways, so losing a few probes isn't too bad. | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong744 Posts
On May 20 2011 10:03 JustAGame wrote: If you get the typical unit composition you do not even need to scout it. The most common mistake toss players are making is connecting the wall to the nexus. This blocks your units on the wrong side of the Nexus ( as seen in Nastea vs InCa). The Toss can't protect the pylon at the ramp and cant get any good forcefields there. Place the second gate (the one close to the Nexus) so there is still space to move, you can have your army sit there (pm for demo on the sim city). Any attacking lings and roaches can be trapped there with forcefields and you can defend. (i know the micro isn't that easy, but its possible without 500 apm) You might need to pull probes back to the main for a few seconds, but that's it, you should be ahead after anyways, so losing a few probes isn't too bad. But thats for 3gate expand yea? This doesn't apply to FE's (especially on maps with wide naturals) though does it? | ||
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gheyrobot
United States30 Posts
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