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On May 20 2011 17:00 Keilah wrote:
That's kinda silly, i mean 1 gateway basically = 1 stalker and nobody goes 'OMG I LOST A STALKER, NO WAY TO WIN NOW'
you would be surprised how often that actually happens
protoss just dies if you make any mistake early game
and losing a stalker equals insta gg in most situations
ontopic i try to forge expand everywhere. there are maps where it can be really dangerous but i'd rather lose because i built too few cannons/bad wall than just lose because i 3 gate expand and he's zerg
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i'd rather lose because i built too few cannons/bad wall than just lose because i 3 gate expand and he's zerg
And then you build 5 cannons and he double expands. SOLID STRAT mate
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On May 21 2011 02:23 just_godlike wrote:Show nested quote +i'd rather lose because i built too few cannons/bad wall than just lose because i 3 gate expand and he's zerg And then you build 5 cannons and he double expands. SOLID STRAT mate
Pretty much.
You don't want to build more than one or two cannons pre-emptively, if he sees 3+ Cannons then hes just going to skip the all in and drone.
For 3gate expo, when your expansion comes up you are actually tight on minerals, if you build 3+ Cannons it either delays your tech, cripples your infrastructure or cuts into your Stalker count, you can't just throw up static defense blindly or you set yourself too far behind. Especially if you build more than two cannons as your expanding, if you do then you will miss warpgate cooldowns
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On May 20 2011 17:00 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 16:03 WrathOfAiur wrote:On May 20 2011 12:28 Minigun wrote:Nah it's pretty much meant to lower your sentry count and outright kill you. If you live you should be ahead. Here is what you will have when it hits on XEL NAGA and what your buildings should look like. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9M9Ha.jpg) Now, when u see it come, you add pure stalker after having 8-10 sentries, and units come before probes, and have a 2nd cannon warping in. Notice the positioning of the first cannon, and how there is a pylon behind it powering it. do not go out, stay behind mineral line/wall Yes i realize the forge/gateway will get picked off if you don't go outside the wall no one cares  , you just have to SURVIVE if you survive ESPECIALLY without losing probes, you are AHEAD. that's exactly how my building placement looks. roaches pick it apart; as you say. But if you loose your 4th gateway and forge, the zerg will just outproduce you. I know you are probably more skilled than me (I'm high master), so I think it's just that you never faced a zerg who is REALLY committing to this and is pumping pure units for the entire time. As soon as the buildings are down, a zerg can run in with 40 speedlings. your sentry energie won't last forever and you don't have the dps to kill the masses fast enough. when he is committing, he WILL kill you. I'm not talking out my ass, it's not like I haven't been roach/ling all in'd by zergs at my level, it happens from time to time, and it is definitely feasible, hard, but as long as you don't mess up, it should be fine. that's true they can, but u are forgetting you have forcefields, lings and unupgraded roaches, are helpless against sentries+cannons, completely helpless. You should be warping in more sentries as needed, if the attack continues, warp in more, I've held off these attacks and had like 14-15 sentries at the end because I needed them.
The IM timing isn't really an all-in. It starts with usually even economy to a 3gate sentry expand and takes a 3rd base right before the attack and right as the protoss natural is getting up. 3 hatch 2 queen gives zerg an insane ability to power drones
Look at losira vs alicia on terminus
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65189
He doesn't out right kill him, in fact he doesn't even do too much damage but he's on equal economy before the attack.
@ ~7minutes 34 drones to 29 probes roaches on the way
@ ~10minutes the attack stops he's killed a few probes but really not done too much damage. alicia's battle control was very good. 32 drones to 30 probes
@~12minutes this is the next time we get to know the worker count its 65 drones to 44 probes and what really could alicia have done by now? there's a group of speedlings ready for a backstab as soon as the attack stops if alicia trys to counter attack
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I've seen mc do a 4 gate expand. I think he does 4 gates now to get enough units to defend off the roachling allin then he can put pressure back on the zerg.. I'm not a protoss user this is just theorycraft
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On May 21 2011 02:38 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 17:00 Minigun wrote:On May 20 2011 16:03 WrathOfAiur wrote:On May 20 2011 12:28 Minigun wrote:Nah it's pretty much meant to lower your sentry count and outright kill you. If you live you should be ahead. Here is what you will have when it hits on XEL NAGA and what your buildings should look like. Now, when u see it come, you add pure stalker after having 8-10 sentries, and units come before probes, and have a 2nd cannon warping in. Notice the positioning of the first cannon, and how there is a pylon behind it powering it. do not go out, stay behind mineral line/wall Yes i realize the forge/gateway will get picked off if you don't go outside the wall no one cares , you just have to SURVIVE if you survive ESPECIALLY without losing probes, you are AHEAD. that's exactly how my building placement looks. roaches pick it apart; as you say. But if you loose your 4th gateway and forge, the zerg will just outproduce you. I know you are probably more skilled than me (I'm high master), so I think it's just that you never faced a zerg who is REALLY committing to this and is pumping pure units for the entire time. As soon as the buildings are down, a zerg can run in with 40 speedlings. your sentry energie won't last forever and you don't have the dps to kill the masses fast enough. when he is committing, he WILL kill you. I'm not talking out my ass, it's not like I haven't been roach/ling all in'd by zergs at my level, it happens from time to time, and it is definitely feasible, hard, but as long as you don't mess up, it should be fine. that's true they can, but u are forgetting you have forcefields, lings and unupgraded roaches, are helpless against sentries+cannons, completely helpless. You should be warping in more sentries as needed, if the attack continues, warp in more, I've held off these attacks and had like 14-15 sentries at the end because I needed them. The IM timing isn't really an all-in. It starts with usually even economy to a 3gate sentry expand and takes a 3rd base right before the attack and right as the protoss natural is getting up. 3 hatch 2 queen gives zerg an insane ability to power drones Look at losira vs alicia on terminus http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65189He doesn't out right kill him, in fact he doesn't even do too much damage but he's on equal economy before the attack. @ ~7minutes 34 drones to 29 probes roaches on the way @ ~10minutes the attack stops he's killed a few probes but really not done too much damage. alicia's battle control was very good. 32 drones to 30 probes @~12minutes this is the next time we get to know the worker count its 65 drones to 44 probes and what really could alicia have done by now? there's a group of speedlings ready for a backstab as soon as the attack stops if alicia trys to counter attack
Yes I remember that game, he lost a ton of probes, not a few, he handled the attack poorly. He cut corners for a stargate. I've held this attack off and at the end i'd have not 2 less workers, but 10+ more. This attack keeps protoss honest, nothing more.
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Here are my basic thoughts on the matter (and a comparison to 4 gate).
There is a timing where scouting is very difficult, for Zerg that is between the wall in + an AA unit (stalker/sentry) and the lair tech kicking in, for protoss it is between ling speed finishing and when they get observer/hallucination/[hoenix.
The main issue is that if you know you have a blind spot you must play safer. For me that means I always throw down 2 spine crawlers and/or make 5-6 roaches and have a few larvae stockpiled in anticipation of 4 gates. For toss it may mean a couple of cannons or an extra gateway (you don't need to constantly pump out of it but an extra 2 units in a pinch may help).
The other thing I have noted is that most toss builds have 2 gas. Is it possible to use those probes and 75 minerals from the second gas better in cannons/zealots? Do you need 8-10 sentries rather than a few more beefy units? At the end of the day force fields can be baited and also matter less if you have a ton of zealots (because the zealots cut up the lings quite well).
Expand builds from Terran and Zerg are low gas whereas toss always seems to rush VRs or DTs.
In a lot of cases Zerg players can't scout properly (especially versus Terran) and the reaction is simply to always have enough units you can survive while going for econ, tech is just not the right answer.
Tech means you can't compete if they go full macro on you and you aren't any safer from rushes. Maybe taking a slower tech approach (using hallucinate for scouting instead of fast robo, using cannons for defense) and a gateway heavy composition would be safer.
As a Zerg I really don't see how I can take a tech leap that destroys a gateway comp that is in a defensive position. Zerg learned to rely more on Queens/spores and less on overseers and hydras, maybe toss has to adapt by making an equivalent transition.
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On May 20 2011 12:28 Minigun wrote:Nah it's pretty much meant to lower your sentry count and outright kill you. If you live you should be ahead. Here is what you will have when it hits on XEL NAGA and what your buildings should look like. Now, when u see it come, you add pure stalker after having 8-10 sentries, and units come before probes, and have a 2nd cannon warping in. Notice the positioning of the first cannon, and how there is a pylon behind it powering it. do not go out, stay behind mineral line/wall Yes i realize the forge/gateway will get picked off if you don't go outside the wall no one cares , you just have to SURVIVE if you survive ESPECIALLY without losing probes, you are AHEAD.
I had a game similar to this, what do you do if he starts attacking your nexus? I couldn't muster out the forces to stop it and the cannon is outranged.
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TO OP: Typically in PvZ I do a 10gate DT tech rush into expo, and often times I catch the Zerg player massing at their natural. Although I have 1 stalker and about 3 zealots for most of the early game, I am very active with them, ritually clearing out the xnwt and my natural, looking for spare lings.
At 6:45 I can warp in 3 dts, and a few seconds later I am able to place my nexus. The DTs are really strong at that point in time, and more often than not I can snipe their natural and a few drones. If they all-in me, which the Zergs have several times, (queen, drones, remainder of army) I cancel my nexus, go back up my ramp, warp in sentries and bring 1 DT back to base to clear out the trash. The other 2 take care of cleaning up his base. The difficulty I have is usually when the Zerg player, as stated in the OP, is able to correctly predict DT and gets detection. The counter to this is simple, and was made even stronger in the 1.3.3 patch: Archon.
If I am forced out of the Zerg natural early, without doing much damage (very rare; due to a sac ol scouting DT shrine or blind spore crawler building), the worst thing I could do is lose even 1 DT since I spent so much early game resources getting them... Hence the solution is to pull 1 and place at the Zerg 3rd, and bring 2 back for archon defense. Since I am on double geysers, I will have a lot of sentries, and a lot of minerals, so I (if I haven't already) place a forge and then cannon my natural. The sentries coupled with the archon (most important unit here) really make a staunch defense even by themselves, but against this roach ling allin I find that I need the extra support of cannons both as damage dealers and detection units. I don't mind spamming 4-6 cannons either, even though that is typically an overreaction, but the idea behind that is this: If I make 2-4 cannons and together with my army I just barely hold, the zerg has the macro mechanic to overwhelm me especially since I am relying on cannon build times as part of my defense. Even if I hold, I will have received a lot of damage and spent a lot of resources replenishing units/structures that I have lost. Alternatively, if I build 4-6 cannons, they could completely shut down the aggression and give the Zerg player absolutely no returns for the combat unit investment they've made, both in having done no damage and in wasting so much larva for an army that can't do much due to force field and the archon... The strength of the roaches, even with burrow, is based on the presence of the zerglings able to be in the combat, but the archon/sentry combination (especially after the range buff to archon attack) that fact is easily deniable (though it is of course contingent on how well force fields are placed). All of this is doable because of the DT though... they both act as scouts and threats that demand attention from the Zerg player, forcing a delay in their push to acquire the necessary detection.
As a Protoss player, I operate under the belief that the forge should be placed soon after your nexus is placed. I tend to overproduce combat units and place my forge late, but it shouldn't really affect the timing of this push since the Dark Templar are what dictate when this push goes into effect. Also, if you are good at finding holes in your opponent's defenses, Dark Templar are a unit you want to have as early as is possible.
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On May 20 2011 12:28 Minigun wrote:Nah it's pretty much meant to lower your sentry count and outright kill you. If you live you should be ahead. Here is what you will have when it hits on XEL NAGA and what your buildings should look like. Now, when u see it come, you add pure stalker after having 8-10 sentries, and units come before probes, and have a 2nd cannon warping in. Notice the positioning of the first cannon, and how there is a pylon behind it powering it. do not go out, stay behind mineral line/wall Yes i realize the forge/gateway will get picked off if you don't go outside the wall no one cares , you just have to SURVIVE if you survive ESPECIALLY without losing probes, you are AHEAD.
So basicly, the reason people are losing to the agression is because they are being greedy with their probes and not investing in enough units to stop the agression.
What if you do this and see that they decided to take a quick third instead? I am more inclinded to try for my third myself, but how quickly.
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On May 21 2011 02:50 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 02:38 Jaeger wrote:On May 20 2011 17:00 Minigun wrote:On May 20 2011 16:03 WrathOfAiur wrote:On May 20 2011 12:28 Minigun wrote:Nah it's pretty much meant to lower your sentry count and outright kill you. If you live you should be ahead. Here is what you will have when it hits on XEL NAGA and what your buildings should look like. Now, when u see it come, you add pure stalker after having 8-10 sentries, and units come before probes, and have a 2nd cannon warping in. Notice the positioning of the first cannon, and how there is a pylon behind it powering it. do not go out, stay behind mineral line/wall Yes i realize the forge/gateway will get picked off if you don't go outside the wall no one cares , you just have to SURVIVE if you survive ESPECIALLY without losing probes, you are AHEAD. that's exactly how my building placement looks. roaches pick it apart; as you say. But if you loose your 4th gateway and forge, the zerg will just outproduce you. I know you are probably more skilled than me (I'm high master), so I think it's just that you never faced a zerg who is REALLY committing to this and is pumping pure units for the entire time. As soon as the buildings are down, a zerg can run in with 40 speedlings. your sentry energie won't last forever and you don't have the dps to kill the masses fast enough. when he is committing, he WILL kill you. I'm not talking out my ass, it's not like I haven't been roach/ling all in'd by zergs at my level, it happens from time to time, and it is definitely feasible, hard, but as long as you don't mess up, it should be fine. that's true they can, but u are forgetting you have forcefields, lings and unupgraded roaches, are helpless against sentries+cannons, completely helpless. You should be warping in more sentries as needed, if the attack continues, warp in more, I've held off these attacks and had like 14-15 sentries at the end because I needed them. The IM timing isn't really an all-in. It starts with usually even economy to a 3gate sentry expand and takes a 3rd base right before the attack and right as the protoss natural is getting up. 3 hatch 2 queen gives zerg an insane ability to power drones Look at losira vs alicia on terminus http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65189He doesn't out right kill him, in fact he doesn't even do too much damage but he's on equal economy before the attack. @ ~7minutes 34 drones to 29 probes roaches on the way @ ~10minutes the attack stops he's killed a few probes but really not done too much damage. alicia's battle control was very good. 32 drones to 30 probes @~12minutes this is the next time we get to know the worker count its 65 drones to 44 probes and what really could alicia have done by now? there's a group of speedlings ready for a backstab as soon as the attack stops if alicia trys to counter attack Yes I remember that game, he lost a ton of probes, not a few, he handled the attack poorly. He cut corners for a stargate. I've held this attack off and at the end i'd have not 2 less workers, but 10+ more. This attack keeps protoss honest, nothing more.
Mini can you find a zerg to do this to you and post the replay? It'd be super helpful to see how to hold it in action.
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yeah the voidray tactic would prolly work, but honestly... who goes voidray expand :S? that must be if u can scout the build, which in it self is a hard thing.
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Canada13408 Posts
I've been doing what Mini posted and what I saw in another thread from Alejandrisha and I have found that this works quite well Here is a replay of me doing this Granted I am only diamond but I think this an help others around my level specifically in seeing it can be done.
http://drop.sc/11027
It was on backwater Gulch for those who care. the Zerg really didnt expect me to hold it at the end lol
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On May 21 2011 02:50 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 02:38 Jaeger wrote:On May 20 2011 17:00 Minigun wrote:On May 20 2011 16:03 WrathOfAiur wrote:On May 20 2011 12:28 Minigun wrote:Nah it's pretty much meant to lower your sentry count and outright kill you. If you live you should be ahead. Here is what you will have when it hits on XEL NAGA and what your buildings should look like. Now, when u see it come, you add pure stalker after having 8-10 sentries, and units come before probes, and have a 2nd cannon warping in. Notice the positioning of the first cannon, and how there is a pylon behind it powering it. do not go out, stay behind mineral line/wall Yes i realize the forge/gateway will get picked off if you don't go outside the wall no one cares , you just have to SURVIVE if you survive ESPECIALLY without losing probes, you are AHEAD. that's exactly how my building placement looks. roaches pick it apart; as you say. But if you loose your 4th gateway and forge, the zerg will just outproduce you. I know you are probably more skilled than me (I'm high master), so I think it's just that you never faced a zerg who is REALLY committing to this and is pumping pure units for the entire time. As soon as the buildings are down, a zerg can run in with 40 speedlings. your sentry energie won't last forever and you don't have the dps to kill the masses fast enough. when he is committing, he WILL kill you. I'm not talking out my ass, it's not like I haven't been roach/ling all in'd by zergs at my level, it happens from time to time, and it is definitely feasible, hard, but as long as you don't mess up, it should be fine. that's true they can, but u are forgetting you have forcefields, lings and unupgraded roaches, are helpless against sentries+cannons, completely helpless. You should be warping in more sentries as needed, if the attack continues, warp in more, I've held off these attacks and had like 14-15 sentries at the end because I needed them. The IM timing isn't really an all-in. It starts with usually even economy to a 3gate sentry expand and takes a 3rd base right before the attack and right as the protoss natural is getting up. 3 hatch 2 queen gives zerg an insane ability to power drones Look at losira vs alicia on terminus http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65189He doesn't out right kill him, in fact he doesn't even do too much damage but he's on equal economy before the attack. @ ~7minutes 34 drones to 29 probes roaches on the way @ ~10minutes the attack stops he's killed a few probes but really not done too much damage. alicia's battle control was very good. 32 drones to 30 probes @~12minutes this is the next time we get to know the worker count its 65 drones to 44 probes and what really could alicia have done by now? there's a group of speedlings ready for a backstab as soon as the attack stops if alicia trys to counter attack Yes I remember that game, he lost a ton of probes, not a few, he handled the attack poorly. He cut corners for a stargate. I've held this attack off and at the end i'd have not 2 less workers, but 10+ more. This attack keeps protoss honest, nothing more.
I think you misremember, he didn't get a stargate that game he got hallucination and eventually robo and twilight council tech.
During the attack at his natural he lost from my count:
3 zealot
6 probe
3 stalker
2 sentry
1 cannon
1 pylon
If he had kept those 6 probes alive he would've had an income lead for about 20-25s before the drone count surpassed him.
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On May 21 2011 04:21 Jaeger wrote:
I think you misremember, he didn't get a stargate that game he got hallucination and eventually robo and twilight council tech.
During the attack at his natural he lost from my count:
3 zealot
6 probe
3 stalker
2 sentry
1 cannon
1 pylon
If he had kept those 6 probes alive he would've had an income lead for about 20-25s before the drone count surpassed him.
This is the game where he didn't wall off at his nat right? He moved out and wasted 5 FF. He also didn't build the cannon immediately after the forge finished. He built the cannon at 8:15 when his forge finished at 7:25.
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Stargate expand is not the answer. Sure roaches and lings can't kill void rays but the void ray can't kill the roaches fast enough to really do anything.. by the time you've killed the roaches your expansion is gone. Also it doesn't address the zerglings at all. 3gate dt expand is very good because it more effectively deals with the push and in the meantime, these zerg openings sacrifice early detection for more aggression. I myself have had success with getting hallucination right after warpgate, adding 1 cannon preemptively and adding 1 or 2 more if I scout the all in and using good simcity + forcefields + cannons to deal with it.
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People C'mon ,,, S C O U T thaths all
User was warned for this post
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On May 20 2011 12:28 Minigun wrote:Nah it's pretty much meant to lower your sentry count and outright kill you. If you live you should be ahead. Here is what you will have when it hits on XEL NAGA and what your buildings should look like. Now, when u see it come, you add pure stalker after having 8-10 sentries, and units come before probes, and have a 2nd cannon warping in. Notice the positioning of the first cannon, and how there is a pylon behind it powering it. do not go out, stay behind mineral line/wall Yes i realize the forge/gateway will get picked off if you don't go outside the wall no one cares , you just have to SURVIVE if you survive ESPECIALLY without losing probes, you are AHEAD.
In the nestea vs inca GSL finals game 1, Nestea's attack hit around 7:40. In your screenshot, the timer is at 8:30. Is the screenshot you posted an accurate description of what you would generally have at the 7:45 mark?
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On May 21 2011 04:10 ZeromuS wrote:I've been doing what Mini posted and what I saw in another thread from Alejandrisha and I have found that this works quite well Here is a replay of me doing this Granted I am only diamond but I think this an help others around my level specifically in seeing it can be done. http://drop.sc/11027It was on backwater Gulch for those who care. the Zerg really didnt expect me to hold it at the end lol
This was some kind of delayed push. At 7:30 mark when this usually hits, you just hallucinated your phoenix and your army was a zealot and 8 sentries, no cannons either. You were lucky that he attacked at around 8 minute mark, which gave you time to make stalkers and allow your cannon to finish. What I am saying here is if the zerg did it as he should have, it would have been an easy win for him.
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I really think that stopping at 5-6 sentries with a slightly later second gas is the answer to this. Having a few stalkers up instead if pure sentries when their attack first gets to you is HUGE, and allows you to actually hold things off while you make cannons. Also has the added benefit of making a stalker second instead of a sentry which helps to deny scouting overlords and make the zerg wary of a 4 gate. Basically the way I've been playing it is zealot->stalker->sentry->sentry off the first gate, then expand and warp in 3 sentries followed up with more stalkers on subsequent warpins.
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EPT
