EPT[D] Roach ling all in/agression, how does P expo? - Page 8
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gheyrobot
United States30 Posts
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Keilah
731 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 20 2011 11:22 Keilah wrote: God it's driving me insane that nobody confirms or denies that my idea will work. Build cannons just before hallucinating, and cancel them if the attack isn't coming! Same as your PF rush idea. That would work though. Pretty simple idea. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
Now it could be mindgames, but at least you know that the zerg is more likely to be aggressive, you killed a couple lings, and you can be a bit more cautious. | ||
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warcralft
Singapore609 Posts
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jonathan1
United States395 Posts
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Minigun
619 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9M9Ha.jpg) Now, when u see it come, you add pure stalker after having 8-10 sentries, and units come before probes, and have a 2nd cannon warping in. Notice the positioning of the first cannon, and how there is a pylon behind it powering it. do not go out, stay behind mineral line/wall Yes i realize the forge/gateway will get picked off if you don't go outside the wall no one cares  , you just have to SURVIVE if you survive ESPECIALLY without losing probes, you are AHEAD. | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong748 Posts
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Basileus
United States103 Posts
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
On May 20 2011 12:28 Minigun wrote: Nah it's pretty much meant to lower your sentry count and outright kill you. If you live you should be ahead. Here is what you will have when it hits on XEL NAGA and what your buildings should look like. Now, when u see it come, you add pure stalker after having 8-10 sentries, and units come before probes, and have a 2nd cannon warping in. Notice the positioning of the first cannon, and how there is a pylon behind it powering it. do not go out, stay behind mineral line/wall Yes i realize the forge/gateway will get picked off if you don't go outside the wall no one cares , you just have to SURVIVE if you survive ESPECIALLY without losing probes, you are AHEAD.that's exactly how my building placement looks. roaches pick it apart; as you say. But if you loose your 4th gateway and forge, the zerg will just outproduce you. I know you are probably more skilled than me (I'm high master), so I think it's just that you never faced a zerg who is REALLY committing to this and is pumping pure units for the entire time. As soon as the buildings are down, a zerg can run in with 40 speedlings. your sentry energie won't last forever and you don't have the dps to kill the masses fast enough. when he is committing, he WILL kill you. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
so make another gateway ASAP when you see him coming, since you know one of your gates is going to die. Or something along those lines. In other news, my idea (make 2 more cannons, scout with hallucinate, cancel cannons if no rush) more or less seems to work, with a few caveats. -gotta scout to see if he's doing a super-early rush off of one base or cancel hat or something, those will hit before hallucinate completes. -3 chronos on probes, the rest on warp and hallucinate, or it's too late. -build the first cannon quickly and just leave it, make 2 more cannons around 7:00-7:10 so they'd complete in time for slightly early versions of the bust. One guy did a 2 base 22 drone version that hit around 7:25, it wasn't too hard to stall for 25s vs that but I doubt I could have stalled for 40. Your hallucinate should be able to scout the path and be over his base for the roach/drone round in time to cancel cannons if he just drones. -Find a way to make those 7:00-7:10 cannons not totally ugh, in my games they always forced me to pylon block or something. I'm sure it won't be too tough to solve. -remember to edit timings for long/short rush distances. -Have fun winning again! | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On May 20 2011 16:03 WrathOfAiur wrote: that's exactly how my building placement looks. roaches pick it apart; as you say. But if you loose your 4th gateway and forge, the zerg will just outproduce you. I know you are probably more skilled than me (I'm high master), so I think it's just that you never faced a zerg who is REALLY committing to this and is pumping pure units for the entire time. As soon as the buildings are down, a zerg can run in with 40 speedlings. your sentry energie won't last forever and you don't have the dps to kill the masses fast enough. when he is committing, he WILL kill you. I'm not talking out my ass, it's not like I haven't been roach/ling all in'd by zergs at my level, it happens from time to time, and it is definitely feasible, hard, but as long as you don't mess up, it should be fine. that's true they can, but u are forgetting you have forcefields, lings and unupgraded roaches, are helpless against sentries+cannons, completely helpless. You should be warping in more sentries as needed, if the attack continues, warp in more, I've held off these attacks and had like 14-15 sentries at the end because I needed them. On May 20 2011 13:02 Basileus wrote: I hope this doesn't bother you minigun, but where would you put the second cannon? over to the left to help defend probes, i feel he could just put roaches over there and take out the nexsus if u dont move out. Thanks pretty close to the other cannon (in range of lings hitting cannon at least), you can move out, just stay behind nexus/wall On May 20 2011 12:34 Zealot Lord wrote: Thanks for the post minigun - definitely helpful. Just curious, what about for maps which you FFE? Say Tal Darim altar, what would be an ideal defensive setup to take against the roach/ling aggression where you don't have as many sentries? just add cannons to the wall off what you scout with a probe | ||
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HellRush
Canada68 Posts
On May 19 2011 04:42 gheyrobot wrote: Thats why i posted, i want people to think of new types of Toss expands. And that's really not true i played a lot of zerg season 1 and it is very easy to pin the protoss player on either Templar stargate or gateway by scouting the front and noting expo timings. This is fairly new build, but i looked at it and i find it very interesting. Both for scouting, holding of ling/roachs all in, and economicly viable. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223087 I haven't personnaly rafine the build i barely tryed it a couple of time in custom games, but i think the idea has a lot of potential. I wish some higher level player could take a better look into this build(mini i am not talking too you in particular but it would be awsome if you checked it out ^^) to see if it is rly viable or not. Because even if the ling/Roaches aggression is stoppable with good FF and cannon placement, i still feel the zerg can simply drones up like a mad man and be way ahead if you go for a 3 gate expo + the nexus,forge,gate wall. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On May 19 2011 08:13 MrBitter wrote: Answer is way simpler than you guys seem to realize. 1.) Get hallucinate before warpgate 2.) Use reduced sentry build time to still get the normal amount of sentries before expanding 3.) If you scout the roach/ling bust, make your cannons reactively (not blindly) 4.) You're now safely playing a normal macro game. When hallucinate is done researching, how many sentries have enough energy for an hallucinated phoenix ? And if you send an hallucination, do you think you'll have enough energy left for force-fields against speedlings trying to prevent you from expanding ? What if with your first hallu you scout a 7RR all-in ? No FF to temporize, no warp ready for the push.. hmm. I don't think the answer is as simple as you make it sound like.. | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
On May 20 2011 23:11 Nyast wrote: When hallucinate is done researching, how many sentries have enough energy for an hallucinated phoenix ? none. that's the problem. it takes a lot of time, until a sentry pooled 100 energy. The benefit is only a few second compared to researching warpgate first. so not really worth it. | ||
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
going back to the 3wg sentry expand, if we look to nestea's first game against inca as an example for timings you can expect the roaches to be knocking at your door at 7:40. consider that you have more gateways than a 2gate forge build - but, you will be cutting into gateway production to lay down a nexus, pylon, and gateway+forge at your natural and if you plan on having cannons your gateway production will be cut into even further, so you really won't be benefitting fully from your 3gates anyway. however, if you use a gate+forge build you will be making use of 2 gateways (fewer minerals overall), and your forge will be long done so you can lay down cannons as soon as you have the minerals. you can prioritize gateways over cannons or vice versa depending on the situation, i personally think getting the cannons first would be better so that they absolutely will be done before roaches arrive and have 0 chance of being focusfired before they're finished - the gateways built afterward would serve as a time buffer for you, assuming the zerg chooses to target one of the gateways making up your wall - this time buffer can be used to spend resources on additional cannons which logically would make up for the opportunity cost of losing that gateway. also, if your phoenix scouts his base and you see no roach warren, an early third, or a fast lair, you have the option of aiming for +1 right away as your forge was finished before you moved out of your main base; it is a much more robust opener in my opinion. but we will see how long 3wg really lasts, for example if pros adapt to a 2gate forge build or not etc. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
On May 20 2011 17:00 Minigun wrote: I'm not talking out my ass, it's not like I haven't been roach/ling all in'd by zergs at my level, it happens from time to time, and it is definitely feasible, hard, but as long as you don't mess up, it should be fine. that's true they can, but u are forgetting you have forcefields, lings and unupgraded roaches, are helpless against sentries+cannons, completely helpless. You should be warping in more sentries as needed, if the attack continues, warp in more, I've held off these attacks and had like 14-15 sentries at the end because I needed them. pretty close to the other cannon (in range of lings hitting cannon at least), you can move out, just stay behind nexus/wall just add cannons to the wall off what you scout with a probe If I can add one thing to miniguns post I would like to say that if you Forge FE on tal darim send your first zealot out of the gateway towards a xel naga watch tower and use the zealot to help scout the front of your base looking to see if a baneling bust is coming or if roaches are on the way thanks to xel naga watchtower vision if at all possible. Isnt as fast as a probe scout but can hold a watchtower for longer against lings and its saved me a number of times. I know its not optimal at tip top levels of play but for us average joes it is darn good idea | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
I've also held it with 3 gate sentry expand, warpgate first, then hallucinate with liberal amounts of chrono on each. You should be able to get your scout out in time to see whether he made units or not, and drop any necessary cannons to help defend. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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hpTheGreat
United States173 Posts
For example, Nestea vs Inka game 1 of grand finals. Nestea had 30 drones mining minerals which is pretty good saturation for two bases (no gas) and while attacking he was taking a 3rd. If it fails you can safely drone up because you will kill a good portion of his forces and although you will be behind in tech, you have 3 bases. | ||
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