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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On May 19 2011 08:38 JustAGame wrote: Roaches/Zergling = 50 Resources /1 Supply Sentry = 75 Resources / 1 Supply Stalker = 87,5 Resources / 1 Supply Sentries and stalkers are 2 supply. Edit: oh you're saying resources per supply, that's harder to compare though just because of production differences. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13407 Posts
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Keilah
731 Posts
-use 1 or 2 chronos on nexus, then throw them all on warpgate -> hallucinate. Pre-patch, this worked in time. +20s on warp, probably not but it should be tested. Also putting so many chronos on the cyber might be a problem for your econ. -2 gate sentry expand? Now that sentries build faster you should be able to pump (about) as many sentries but save 150 on an early gate. That might allow you to lay down your nexus faster, making up for 2 blind cannons. Or, it might allow the zerg to drone to infinity and beyond since obv 2 gates aren't going to do squat for pressure. Needs testing. -Do the 2 zealot scout as suggested in this thread. I'd suggest leaving a probe in the choke to lay down a walloff pylon if you see a ling runby. It needs to be tested - if z makes enough lings to kill those 2 zealots, how much does that hurt the toss/zerg? What about if z kills the zealots and then just builds drones instead of roaches? -What about pressuring with a fast stalker or two? It can kill a few zerglings and/or force enough of a change in the zerg early build order that the roach/ling attack will be late. Needs testing. -Hallucinate before warp? Could be workable, certainly feels awkward though. Off the top of my head, z could get a big lead by memorizing timings - if the gate isn't a warpgate by 6:20 (for example), or if he sees a phoenix before 6:00, warp will be late and z can expand/drone harder than normal. -There could be micro techniques that work. For example, whenever I see this roach/ling attack I see FFs thrown down instantly. Maybe build in a way that forces zerg to knock down your wall with roaches before sending in the lings... and just let him do it. Then you have a lot of FF energy left over to continue stalling for your extra units/cannons. -Do a different build =) I'm liking Pepe's 2gate pressure expand if you aren't into FFE | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
he's saying how many resources they cost PER supply. None of the listed units are 1 supply. | ||
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PhenomenonSc2
United States36 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On May 19 2011 09:21 HedgehogZerg wrote: This roach ling 2 base aggression is new? I used to do a variant where I waited till roach speed finished and spammed roach ling... I would win so many games, but good force fields and cannons until collossi are out should work... am i missing something here? I mean, thats what I usually lost to, especially if they had some cannons up. Been around for ~ 4 months or so, zergs just getting better at it because pro koreans are refining it/showing how its done. My first experience with this type of play was WZPs all-in attack from months ago. | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
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PhenomenonSc2
United States36 Posts
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On May 19 2011 09:21 HedgehogZerg wrote: This roach ling 2 base aggression is new? I used to do a variant where I waited till roach speed finished and spammed roach ling... I would win so many games, but good force fields and cannons until collossi are out should work... am i missing something here? I mean, thats what I usually lost to, especially if they had some cannons up. Having roach speed implies you had a lair, usually if you have a lair, hallucination is done and the protoss can scout it. The current roach/ling all ins that are being used to deny 3 gate expands are hitting before hallucination, but after zergling speed making it hard to scout that the zerg is massing up roaches and ling on hatchery tech. On May 19 2011 09:31 HedgehogZerg wrote: Okay just making sure... and I do believe the best advice is to get a quicker robo. Collossi are a midgame unit in PvZ anyways, and you should be able to get a collosus out before sentries run out of energy and you lose your expo, and if it is a no speed roach push collossi are easily microed versus them. 3gate + robo + add more gates? Colossus are just not going to be out in time to defend your expansion when roaches and lings are hitting your base at the 8 minute mark. There are a few more subtle suggestions earlier like getting hallucination first and delaying your warp gates, but using the faster sentry build time from gateways to not have to lose many units or delay your expansion. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On May 19 2011 08:29 MrBitter wrote: You're not missing 3 warp-in cycles. You're getting the same number of sentries, and losing maybe 1/2 of a warpgate production cycle. Gateways production is still production. And this trade-off that you mention is just part of playing the game... If Zerg is going to react to your scout and cut corners by droning more, then you need to be looking for similar ways to power your own economy, like spending all your chrono on probes rather than hammering out upgrades or more units. (Or you could just chrono your gateways and push anyway, punishing Z for being greedy) My point is this: If you have a problem. And I offer a solution. There will always be some other "what if" element. "WTF, DTs keep killing all my drones." "Make spores." "But if I do that I have to sacrifice drones anyway." "So make overseers." "But if I do that I'm losing gas and slowing my tech." And on and on and on.... Trade-offs happen. That's part of the exchange that makes the game exciting. The key is making better trades than the other player so that you can create large enough advantages to win games. I'd be interested to see a build using this 3gate hallucination before warpgate. From my testing the economy doesn't line up at all. You can't produce constant sentries out of your 3 gateways. Your 5th sentry comes out much later than your 6th with a warpgate build and by the time you get your 5th sentry and feel safe enough to plant your nexus you have a large mineral buildup and are already supersaturating your main minerals so addtional probes are pure negatives for quite a while. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13407 Posts
If he's really doing the losira timing you can absolutely get hallucinated phoenix in time to see it. You just need to start hallucination right after you finish warpgate, which I think is going to become standard in order to see this timing as you can't see it with probe scout unless the zerg is extremely careless. If you don't see the timing, I still think one cannon is pretty safe, but if you see it coming there's no reason not to start 2 cannons; you don't want to be losing sentries. My forcefields were pretty bad when the attack came but it didn't set me too far behind. Simply putting more structures to help your simcity in your natural will really help; since I can't see the replay I will just say this: put your forge in the natural as well as your 4th gateway oh heyo time On May 10 2011 23:12 Alejandrisha wrote: It doesn't help you to start your nexus a minute later. You can go expand-forge-cannon in time for the timing so expanding later is only shooting yourself in the foot. You can scout it with hallucination. You can't scout it any other way. WG finishes at about ~6 minutes with 3gate expand and hallucination takes 60 seconds to research. With a CB or 2 on it (I find blindly chronoboosting probes to be extremely greedy when you are in the dark, which you are at this point in the game) you can scout it as the roaches are hatching, which is really the only tell for this build (besides roach warren before lair starts) Here is the replay I tried posting before http://replayfu.com/download/3rqDRt And if you make any further claims in this neck of the forum you had better have evidence to back it up. EDIT: The other thread can be found at the following linkhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221071 | ||
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
Except you can't reliably scout after ling speed until hallucination/stargate tech kicks in which is too late. This gentleman is right.. Honestly sentries should just start with hallucination, or it should be a researched off of the nexus or something because the need to get warpgate tech before hallucination makes for zergs to be completely unscoutable for the first part of the game. I've had a problem with this since I first started playing and I still think it's bad for PvZ. The protoss literally CAN NOT scout once lings are on the board if he's 3 gate expanding and it's kinda BS. | ||
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CrumpetGuvnor
Australia302 Posts
On May 19 2011 06:35 tskarzyn wrote: Have any toss played around with sending out multiple probes? IE one as decoy, and 1-2 probes taking roundabout routes. What I do upon having my scouting probe die is escort a second scouting probe out by taking my first zealot and few sentries out and clearing the closest watchtower. By this stage they will probably still only have 4 lings so you won't lose your sentries. Then I sneak the probe out and check his saturation at the appropriate time and if he has no drones at his nat, or better yet I see a roach heading to my base, I slap down 3-4 cannons and prepare my sentries to meet the incoming forces at the nearest choke leading to my natural. So for instance on Xel naga caverns I will stall the roaches with forcefields at the bit where the entrance splits into two, to wait for my cannons to get up. This allows you to minimise the amount of forcefields needed and because the roaches are still slow, it's quite easy not to let anything in. Even if a few lings get in and start hitting your sentries, you can easily negate any damage by forcefielding around your army Honestly I think the solution to this is just to play the same way we have always played - good forcefields to stall for cannons. You should have enough on most maps | ||
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Sermokala
United States14110 Posts
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On May 19 2011 12:11 ZeromuS wrote: Here's the post Alejandrisha made on the other Topic covering the same thing EDIT: The other thread can be found at the following linkhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=221071 I think we have to differentiate the 30 drone roach ling vs the 18 drone roach ling. That replay showed the former. 3 gate expo with hallu researched 2nd would die against the latter. | ||
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friendo
46 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On May 19 2011 13:39 kheldorin wrote: I think we have to differentiate the 30 drone roach ling vs the 18 drone roach ling. That replay showed the former. 3 gate expo with hallu researched 2nd would die against the latter. It was also played on the old version with 140 seconds warpgate making both warpgate and hallucination come out considerably quicker than it would now. It was also a completely different opening. Losira went 16gas 15pool 16hatch Nestea went 14gas 13pool 19hatch Bio attempted an idra opening, 15 pool, 2 drones pulled to fight for expansion directly after pool into getting out micro'd into 17 extractor and 24 hatchery. Transfers drones late to a late expansion, puts guys on gas too early and builds a roach warren too late. @7:50 nestea begins his roach ling assault on the natural @8 minutes nestea has 30 drones ~32 lings (lost some already) 9 roaches and 2 queens bio has 32 drones 20 lings 7 roaches and 2 queens inca has 5 functioning warpgates, 37 probes 6 stalkers 7 sentries and is mining from his second base and is already under attack alej has 3 functioning warpgates, 31 probes 2 zealots 1 stalker 7 sentries and his nexus is finishing 2 cannons starting and the attack is 35 seconds away @8:35 nestea has essentially won the game, unpowered 2 warpgates & supply blocked inca reduced his forces to 31 probes 6 stalkers and 3 sentries and exhausted all forcefields alej's 2 cannons finish and bio begins his attack | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
Hallucinate comes up a tiiiiiiiiiiny bit too late right? Just in time to tell you you're dead in 15s? And if you preemptively build cannons and he DOESN'T attack, you're way behind in econ, right? BUT! If you build the cannons JUST before you hallucinate a phoenix, the phoenix will spot the roaches on the march to your base - and if there aren't any, he'll arrive at the Z base to confirm the drone count in time to cancel the cannons! Boom I'm a genius, you can all thank me later. | ||
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phaleos
Australia105 Posts
When i off race toss, I rush attack upgrades so I get +3 insanely fast with no armor. Tends to work vs diamond zergs, if master toss can polish it out that could work too I think. And, yeah it rapes the shit of pre lair tech all-ins. | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
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