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Hey guys;
I just posted earlier regarding a PVZ roach - queen 2 base all-in. Thanks for the help. It looks like my macro was slipping a bit, and immortals vs that many roaches just aren't worth the robo build time. Seems like colossus would have been a better bet.
In this next replay, I need help again. I do the standard 3 gate Expo, with hallucination for scouting on slag pits. Now, I try my best to keep my probe alive, but his overlord spread spots my probe, and I sneak him in but dont really get any useful info. All I see is a shit ton of drones... lol.
Then, when my forge goes down during my 3 gate expo, and insane amount of speedlings hit. I lost this game at the very instant the speedlings surrounded my sentries - and yes I understand that. I didn't react quick enough. However even if i were to deal with those lings, a stream of 4-5 roaches show up soon after to just lol over my army. What bothers me is though I call it an all-in (in game) I see the replay and realize he has the same number of harvesters as me. I'm pretty sure this is some variant of the Losira timing, but again, I'm at a loss on how to stop it.
The natural of slag pits is very difficult to protect, and it didnt help that a huge amount of speedlings surrounded my sentries. However, what really bothers me is that it hits right before hallucination finishes. I've done the 3 gate FE countless times, and I don't like to move out unless I have a cannon up to deal with runby's, or hallucination to spot for me. This results in virtually no info, or way of scouting this attack... unless I randomly send a probe to die into the oncoming force. (too luck-based)
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/174622-1v1-protoss-zerg-slag-pits
If this isn't the Losira timing - my bad, but it seems to absolutely wreck standard 3gate FE. Again, any feedback would be much appreciated. I would not have survived the roaches after the lings...
Thanks for your time.
Sorry mods: Not sure how to add [H] on the side... my bad.
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oh i just type it in.. sorry lol i thought there was some menu feature
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I went for 2 weeks without laddering (no internet fml) and now upon laddering again i'm facing this ALOT on the ladder, (mid-diamond) and i find it super hard to hold as well, i feel its really strong on maps with wide nats, like slag pits. I've only held it by saccing the expansion but that puts you way far behind, or on maps like shattered/sharkuras with closed nats and good FF. I haven't found a reliable way to hold this without being behind  so any help is appreciated too lol.
What league are you btw?
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Yes what league are you?
The losira 2 base roach+sling push is indeed a good weapon versus a 3 gate FE.
But you must make some serious considerations regarding the map you're playing on: Slag Pits. Slag Pits is a horrible map for zerg. Way too small with the rush distances. As a Protoss, you are almost obliged to abuse this fact with a fast build, the simplest being a 4 gate.
Remember that Slag Pits IMO has two close positions and one cross. Although you guys weren't on the typical close position, the distance between 3'o clock and 6'o clock spawns is still super short. Yet you choose to go defensive and macro-oriented by going for a fast expansion, why?
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On May 09 2011 18:56 Morphs wrote:
Yes what league are you?
The losira 2 base roach+sling push is indeed a good weapon versus a 3 gate FE.
But you must make some serious considerations regarding the map you're playing on: Slag Pits. Slag Pits is a horrible map for zerg. Way too small with the rush distances. As a Protoss, you are almost obliged to abuse this fact with a fast build, the simplest being a 4 gate.
Remember that Slag Pits IMO has two close positions and one cross. Although you guys weren't on the typical close position, the distance between 3'o clock and 6'o clock spawns is still super short. Yet you choose to go defensive has and macro-oriented by going for a fast expansion, why?
I'm in masters and I get stomped by this... btw thank you for pointing out zerg's point of view. It is definitely a tough map for zerg. I just want to avoid 4-gating because it doesnt make me any better..
You're right.. I'll probably have to be more aggressive instead of run over..
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4gate is counterable. Relying on it 100% on certain map is plain stupid.
We need something that is viable.
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First of all I disagree with the other guy, Slag pits is in fact a very good map for Z in ZvP.
Such open naturals make it really easy to defend stuff with lings yet make it very hard to do some kind of sentry defense. The only proper way to defend the 30~drone roach/ling push with a 3 gate sentry FE is to stall with good FFs and then get a cannon down which is very hard on this map.
Slag pits is imo a good map for opening with a 2 gate voidray opener. Air distance is relatively short if you're not cross and it takes some time before they can connect their main and natural by creep. You can expand after that and be relatively safe against roach pressure.
Overall against this push I suggest you to smooth out your 3 gate sentry FE build. For some reason you are spending chronoboosts on your nexus after the initial three, that is generally not a good thing to do, as you are practically saturated anyway at that point. If you boost warpgate and hallucination more as well as starting hallu directly after WG finishes you can get it out about 30 secs faster which helps immensely to see the losira push coming in time.
Then if you do you can immediately throw up 1 or 2 cannons as the forge finishes and you can maynard less probes. The nexus can take quite some beating so just position your sentries near the wall while you wait for the cannons to finish and you can generally push off this push and be ahead as they stopped droning to do the push which costs them more then your cannons do.
Still slag pits is hard to defend well with the cannons thus you are better off with a different build imo, if you don't like voidray openers a DT opening is quite fine too actually. They can secure you an expo as well but don't rely on a good early wall-in as much.
It's also worth noting that the zerg in the replay got away with a pretty greedy build, 15 hatch into 18 gas. That build is quite weak to a fourgate on this map as spines are pretty useless on the open map. If i'm unlucky to scout em last I always check their gas timing and if it's really greedy i switch into a 20 probe 4 gate. You have at least 30 secs with 6 stalkers before he has speed on the map so you can do alot of damage with that. Unfortunately you can forget this piece of advice with the upcoming patch as aggressive 4 gates will hit later which in turn lets zergs be greedier with their gas timing on even such open maps.
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1) obviously your FFs were late, theres no getting around that
2) slag pits is insanly hard in tersm of defending a natural, and almost impossible to take a third. Either vetoe it or 4gate
3) you needed to get 2 cannons down alot quicker on a map like that. delay hallucination and spend the chronos on your gateways instead
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He did hatch first, which means he gives up map control. You sorta need to answer that with stalkers instead of a sentry expand, to exploit the fact that he won't get speedlings as fast. I usually go 2gate stalkers vs hatch first (note: if they take gas) nowadays to pressure, especially on a map like slag pits where the natural is so wide open.
You definately do not need to 4gate, but a 2gate opening with chrono's used on stalkers instead of WG tech would've forced a lot of lings and also likely have given you the intel that he had already dropped his roach warren (he wants to be aggressive). The 8roach/ling timing is weaker with a hatch first opening than with a speedling opening precisely for this reason; stalkers have map control until speedlings can stop them. Losira's speed finishes ~20-40 sec before roach warren gets dropped to deny the protoss this valuable piece of intel. This zerg's speed doesn't complete until ~7:20. That's AGES for your stalkers to harrass and force more units rather than drones, and hence completely mess with his timings and give you the chance to get more units and secure your natural.
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On May 09 2011 23:58 truthless wrote:
He did hatch first, which means he gives up map control. You sorta need to answer that with stalkers instead of a sentry expand, to exploit the fact that he won't get speedlings as fast. I usually go 2gate stalkers vs hatch first (note: if they take gas) nowadays to pressure, especially on a map like slag pits where the natural is so wide open.
You definately do not need to 4gate, but a 2gate opening with chrono's used on stalkers instead of WG tech would've forced a lot of lings and also likely have given you the intel that he had already dropped his roach warren (he wants to be aggressive). The 8roach/ling timing is weaker with a hatch first opening than with a speedling opening precisely for this reason; stalkers have map control until speedlings can stop them. Losira's speed finishes ~20-40 sec before roach warren gets dropped to deny the protoss this valuable piece of intel. This zerg's speed doesn't complete until ~7:20. That's AGES for your stalkers to harrass and force more units rather than drones, and hence completely mess with his timings and give you the chance to get more units and secure your natural.
Great points here... thank you. I haven't experimented too much with the 2 stalker rush to exploit slow lings. I just feel unsafe letting zerglings into my base.. even if they're slow..
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If the opponent plays it right its almost impossible to 3g fe vs that build on slag pits.
Slag pit is a rush map and you have a lot of great rushes to do there vs zerg from the obvious 4 gate to the less obvious 3 gate dt... so on.If you don't like rushing id rather veto slag pits since its steps of war w/o a ramp at the natural tbh.
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On May 10 2011 04:13 Aterons_toss wrote:
If the opponent plays it right its almost impossible to 3g fe vs that build on slag pits.
Slag pit is a rush map and you have a lot of great rushes to do there vs zerg from the obvious 4 gate to the less obvious 3 gate dt... so on.If you don't like rushing id rather veto slag pits since its steps of war w/o a ramp at the natural tbh.
yeah I'm trying to decide whether I want to play slag pits or scrap station... i hate both maps so much lol..
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On May 10 2011 04:27 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:13 Aterons_toss wrote:
If the opponent plays it right its almost impossible to 3g fe vs that build on slag pits.
Slag pit is a rush map and you have a lot of great rushes to do there vs zerg from the obvious 4 gate to the less obvious 3 gate dt... so on.If you don't like rushing id rather veto slag pits since its steps of war w/o a ramp at the natural tbh. yeah I'm trying to decide whether I want to play slag pits or scrap station... i hate both maps so much lol..
Scrap is actually pretty rough on a zerg. Once you've gotten over the fact that your ramp is really wide, you have a pretty defensible natural (particularly if you don't let speedlings knock down rocks for free) and the zerg doesn't really have a great third base to take - he has to basically expand into your face, or take something that's super far away from everything. It's also very hard for a zerg to stop colossus or templar-based pushes down that center path of scrap station, its so narrow. Even with them pre-arcing in their base, it puts a HUGE amount of pressure on them once you start breaking down those rocks.
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2 gate expand with a fast stargate or fast DTs is very strong against losira build. You should be able to get cannons up early enough for any of the earlier ling/roach busts, and losira comes so late that you should have a voidray out or be able to stall until DTs are out.
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http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=1461
Here is a replay of me playing against it. I couldn't see your replay because sc2replayed.com is down apparently.
If he's really doing the losira timing you can absolutely get hallucinated phoenix in time to see it. You just need to start hallucination right after you finish warpgate, which I think is going to become standard in order to see this timing as you can't see it with probe scout unless the zerg is extremely careless.
If you don't see the timing, I still think one cannon is pretty safe, but if you see it coming there's no reason not to start 2 cannons; you don't want to be losing sentries. My forcefields were pretty bad when the attack came but it didn't set me too far behind.
Simply putting more structures to help your simcity in your natural will really help; since I can't see the replay I will just say this: put your forge in the natural as well as your 4th gateway
oh heyo time
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On May 10 2011 05:05 Alejandrisha wrote:http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=1461Here is a replay of me playing against it. I couldn't see your replay because sc2replayed.com is down apparently. If he's really doing the losira timing you can absolutely get hallucinated phoenix in time to see it. You just need to start hallucination right after you finish warpgate, which I think is going to become standard in order to see this timing as you can't see it with probe scout unless the zerg is extremely careless. If you don't see the timing, I still think one cannon is pretty safe, but if you see it coming there's no reason not to start 2 cannons; you don't want to be losing sentries. My forcefields were pretty bad when the attack came but it didn't set me too far behind. Simply putting more structures to help your simcity in your natural will really help; since I can't see the replay I will just say this: put your forge in the natural as well as your 4th gateway oh heyo time
Hey man, thanks for the tips, but I can't get the replay.. it looks like link is dead? just says error
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On May 10 2011 04:50 PJA wrote:
2 gate expand with a fast stargate or fast DTs is very strong against losira build. You should be able to get cannons up early enough for any of the earlier ling/roach busts, and losira comes so late that you should have a voidray out or be able to stall until DTs are out.
I see what your saying, its just that I have trouble scouting that its coming. I think I spent too much chronoboost on my probes, and should have saved some for faster hallucination. It would have made a big difference. I'll experiment with fast star too.. thanks
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On May 10 2011 05:19 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:05 Alejandrisha wrote:http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=1461Here is a replay of me playing against it. I couldn't see your replay because sc2replayed.com is down apparently. If he's really doing the losira timing you can absolutely get hallucinated phoenix in time to see it. You just need to start hallucination right after you finish warpgate, which I think is going to become standard in order to see this timing as you can't see it with probe scout unless the zerg is extremely careless. If you don't see the timing, I still think one cannon is pretty safe, but if you see it coming there's no reason not to start 2 cannons; you don't want to be losing sentries. My forcefields were pretty bad when the attack came but it didn't set me too far behind. Simply putting more structures to help your simcity in your natural will really help; since I can't see the replay I will just say this: put your forge in the natural as well as your 4th gateway oh heyo time Hey man, thanks for the tips, but I can't get the replay.. it looks like link is dead? just says error
Hmm it's possible it's members only for downloads I'll upload it to a different site.
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EPT
