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Hey guys;
I just posted earlier regarding a PVZ roach - queen 2 base all-in. Thanks for the help. It looks like my macro was slipping a bit, and immortals vs that many roaches just aren't worth the robo build time. Seems like colossus would have been a better bet.
In this next replay, I need help again. I do the standard 3 gate Expo, with hallucination for scouting on slag pits. Now, I try my best to keep my probe alive, but his overlord spread spots my probe, and I sneak him in but dont really get any useful info. All I see is a shit ton of drones... lol.
Then, when my forge goes down during my 3 gate expo, and insane amount of speedlings hit. I lost this game at the very instant the speedlings surrounded my sentries - and yes I understand that. I didn't react quick enough. However even if i were to deal with those lings, a stream of 4-5 roaches show up soon after to just lol over my army. What bothers me is though I call it an all-in (in game) I see the replay and realize he has the same number of harvesters as me. I'm pretty sure this is some variant of the Losira timing, but again, I'm at a loss on how to stop it.
The natural of slag pits is very difficult to protect, and it didnt help that a huge amount of speedlings surrounded my sentries. However, what really bothers me is that it hits right before hallucination finishes. I've done the 3 gate FE countless times, and I don't like to move out unless I have a cannon up to deal with runby's, or hallucination to spot for me. This results in virtually no info, or way of scouting this attack... unless I randomly send a probe to die into the oncoming force. (too luck-based)
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/174622-1v1-protoss-zerg-slag-pits
If this isn't the Losira timing - my bad, but it seems to absolutely wreck standard 3gate FE. Again, any feedback would be much appreciated. I would not have survived the roaches after the lings...
Thanks for your time.
Sorry mods: Not sure how to add [H] on the side... my bad.
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oh i just type it in.. sorry lol i thought there was some menu feature
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I went for 2 weeks without laddering (no internet fml) and now upon laddering again i'm facing this ALOT on the ladder, (mid-diamond) and i find it super hard to hold as well, i feel its really strong on maps with wide nats, like slag pits. I've only held it by saccing the expansion but that puts you way far behind, or on maps like shattered/sharkuras with closed nats and good FF. I haven't found a reliable way to hold this without being behind  so any help is appreciated too lol.
What league are you btw?
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Yes what league are you?
The losira 2 base roach+sling push is indeed a good weapon versus a 3 gate FE.
But you must make some serious considerations regarding the map you're playing on: Slag Pits. Slag Pits is a horrible map for zerg. Way too small with the rush distances. As a Protoss, you are almost obliged to abuse this fact with a fast build, the simplest being a 4 gate.
Remember that Slag Pits IMO has two close positions and one cross. Although you guys weren't on the typical close position, the distance between 3'o clock and 6'o clock spawns is still super short. Yet you choose to go defensive and macro-oriented by going for a fast expansion, why?
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On May 09 2011 18:56 Morphs wrote:
Yes what league are you?
The losira 2 base roach+sling push is indeed a good weapon versus a 3 gate FE.
But you must make some serious considerations regarding the map you're playing on: Slag Pits. Slag Pits is a horrible map for zerg. Way too small with the rush distances. As a Protoss, you are almost obliged to abuse this fact with a fast build, the simplest being a 4 gate.
Remember that Slag Pits IMO has two close positions and one cross. Although you guys weren't on the typical close position, the distance between 3'o clock and 6'o clock spawns is still super short. Yet you choose to go defensive has and macro-oriented by going for a fast expansion, why?
I'm in masters and I get stomped by this... btw thank you for pointing out zerg's point of view. It is definitely a tough map for zerg. I just want to avoid 4-gating because it doesnt make me any better..
You're right.. I'll probably have to be more aggressive instead of run over..
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4gate is counterable. Relying on it 100% on certain map is plain stupid.
We need something that is viable.
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First of all I disagree with the other guy, Slag pits is in fact a very good map for Z in ZvP.
Such open naturals make it really easy to defend stuff with lings yet make it very hard to do some kind of sentry defense. The only proper way to defend the 30~drone roach/ling push with a 3 gate sentry FE is to stall with good FFs and then get a cannon down which is very hard on this map.
Slag pits is imo a good map for opening with a 2 gate voidray opener. Air distance is relatively short if you're not cross and it takes some time before they can connect their main and natural by creep. You can expand after that and be relatively safe against roach pressure.
Overall against this push I suggest you to smooth out your 3 gate sentry FE build. For some reason you are spending chronoboosts on your nexus after the initial three, that is generally not a good thing to do, as you are practically saturated anyway at that point. If you boost warpgate and hallucination more as well as starting hallu directly after WG finishes you can get it out about 30 secs faster which helps immensely to see the losira push coming in time.
Then if you do you can immediately throw up 1 or 2 cannons as the forge finishes and you can maynard less probes. The nexus can take quite some beating so just position your sentries near the wall while you wait for the cannons to finish and you can generally push off this push and be ahead as they stopped droning to do the push which costs them more then your cannons do.
Still slag pits is hard to defend well with the cannons thus you are better off with a different build imo, if you don't like voidray openers a DT opening is quite fine too actually. They can secure you an expo as well but don't rely on a good early wall-in as much.
It's also worth noting that the zerg in the replay got away with a pretty greedy build, 15 hatch into 18 gas. That build is quite weak to a fourgate on this map as spines are pretty useless on the open map. If i'm unlucky to scout em last I always check their gas timing and if it's really greedy i switch into a 20 probe 4 gate. You have at least 30 secs with 6 stalkers before he has speed on the map so you can do alot of damage with that. Unfortunately you can forget this piece of advice with the upcoming patch as aggressive 4 gates will hit later which in turn lets zergs be greedier with their gas timing on even such open maps.
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1) obviously your FFs were late, theres no getting around that
2) slag pits is insanly hard in tersm of defending a natural, and almost impossible to take a third. Either vetoe it or 4gate
3) you needed to get 2 cannons down alot quicker on a map like that. delay hallucination and spend the chronos on your gateways instead
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He did hatch first, which means he gives up map control. You sorta need to answer that with stalkers instead of a sentry expand, to exploit the fact that he won't get speedlings as fast. I usually go 2gate stalkers vs hatch first (note: if they take gas) nowadays to pressure, especially on a map like slag pits where the natural is so wide open.
You definately do not need to 4gate, but a 2gate opening with chrono's used on stalkers instead of WG tech would've forced a lot of lings and also likely have given you the intel that he had already dropped his roach warren (he wants to be aggressive). The 8roach/ling timing is weaker with a hatch first opening than with a speedling opening precisely for this reason; stalkers have map control until speedlings can stop them. Losira's speed finishes ~20-40 sec before roach warren gets dropped to deny the protoss this valuable piece of intel. This zerg's speed doesn't complete until ~7:20. That's AGES for your stalkers to harrass and force more units rather than drones, and hence completely mess with his timings and give you the chance to get more units and secure your natural.
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On May 09 2011 23:58 truthless wrote:
He did hatch first, which means he gives up map control. You sorta need to answer that with stalkers instead of a sentry expand, to exploit the fact that he won't get speedlings as fast. I usually go 2gate stalkers vs hatch first (note: if they take gas) nowadays to pressure, especially on a map like slag pits where the natural is so wide open.
You definately do not need to 4gate, but a 2gate opening with chrono's used on stalkers instead of WG tech would've forced a lot of lings and also likely have given you the intel that he had already dropped his roach warren (he wants to be aggressive). The 8roach/ling timing is weaker with a hatch first opening than with a speedling opening precisely for this reason; stalkers have map control until speedlings can stop them. Losira's speed finishes ~20-40 sec before roach warren gets dropped to deny the protoss this valuable piece of intel. This zerg's speed doesn't complete until ~7:20. That's AGES for your stalkers to harrass and force more units rather than drones, and hence completely mess with his timings and give you the chance to get more units and secure your natural.
Great points here... thank you. I haven't experimented too much with the 2 stalker rush to exploit slow lings. I just feel unsafe letting zerglings into my base.. even if they're slow..
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If the opponent plays it right its almost impossible to 3g fe vs that build on slag pits.
Slag pit is a rush map and you have a lot of great rushes to do there vs zerg from the obvious 4 gate to the less obvious 3 gate dt... so on.If you don't like rushing id rather veto slag pits since its steps of war w/o a ramp at the natural tbh.
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On May 10 2011 04:13 Aterons_toss wrote:
If the opponent plays it right its almost impossible to 3g fe vs that build on slag pits.
Slag pit is a rush map and you have a lot of great rushes to do there vs zerg from the obvious 4 gate to the less obvious 3 gate dt... so on.If you don't like rushing id rather veto slag pits since its steps of war w/o a ramp at the natural tbh.
yeah I'm trying to decide whether I want to play slag pits or scrap station... i hate both maps so much lol..
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On May 10 2011 04:27 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:13 Aterons_toss wrote:
If the opponent plays it right its almost impossible to 3g fe vs that build on slag pits.
Slag pit is a rush map and you have a lot of great rushes to do there vs zerg from the obvious 4 gate to the less obvious 3 gate dt... so on.If you don't like rushing id rather veto slag pits since its steps of war w/o a ramp at the natural tbh. yeah I'm trying to decide whether I want to play slag pits or scrap station... i hate both maps so much lol..
Scrap is actually pretty rough on a zerg. Once you've gotten over the fact that your ramp is really wide, you have a pretty defensible natural (particularly if you don't let speedlings knock down rocks for free) and the zerg doesn't really have a great third base to take - he has to basically expand into your face, or take something that's super far away from everything. It's also very hard for a zerg to stop colossus or templar-based pushes down that center path of scrap station, its so narrow. Even with them pre-arcing in their base, it puts a HUGE amount of pressure on them once you start breaking down those rocks.
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2 gate expand with a fast stargate or fast DTs is very strong against losira build. You should be able to get cannons up early enough for any of the earlier ling/roach busts, and losira comes so late that you should have a voidray out or be able to stall until DTs are out.
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http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=1461
Here is a replay of me playing against it. I couldn't see your replay because sc2replayed.com is down apparently.
If he's really doing the losira timing you can absolutely get hallucinated phoenix in time to see it. You just need to start hallucination right after you finish warpgate, which I think is going to become standard in order to see this timing as you can't see it with probe scout unless the zerg is extremely careless.
If you don't see the timing, I still think one cannon is pretty safe, but if you see it coming there's no reason not to start 2 cannons; you don't want to be losing sentries. My forcefields were pretty bad when the attack came but it didn't set me too far behind.
Simply putting more structures to help your simcity in your natural will really help; since I can't see the replay I will just say this: put your forge in the natural as well as your 4th gateway
oh heyo time
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On May 10 2011 05:05 Alejandrisha wrote:http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=1461Here is a replay of me playing against it. I couldn't see your replay because sc2replayed.com is down apparently. If he's really doing the losira timing you can absolutely get hallucinated phoenix in time to see it. You just need to start hallucination right after you finish warpgate, which I think is going to become standard in order to see this timing as you can't see it with probe scout unless the zerg is extremely careless. If you don't see the timing, I still think one cannon is pretty safe, but if you see it coming there's no reason not to start 2 cannons; you don't want to be losing sentries. My forcefields were pretty bad when the attack came but it didn't set me too far behind. Simply putting more structures to help your simcity in your natural will really help; since I can't see the replay I will just say this: put your forge in the natural as well as your 4th gateway oh heyo time
Hey man, thanks for the tips, but I can't get the replay.. it looks like link is dead? just says error
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On May 10 2011 04:50 PJA wrote:
2 gate expand with a fast stargate or fast DTs is very strong against losira build. You should be able to get cannons up early enough for any of the earlier ling/roach busts, and losira comes so late that you should have a voidray out or be able to stall until DTs are out.
I see what your saying, its just that I have trouble scouting that its coming. I think I spent too much chronoboost on my probes, and should have saved some for faster hallucination. It would have made a big difference. I'll experiment with fast star too.. thanks
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On May 10 2011 05:19 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:05 Alejandrisha wrote:http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=1461Here is a replay of me playing against it. I couldn't see your replay because sc2replayed.com is down apparently. If he's really doing the losira timing you can absolutely get hallucinated phoenix in time to see it. You just need to start hallucination right after you finish warpgate, which I think is going to become standard in order to see this timing as you can't see it with probe scout unless the zerg is extremely careless. If you don't see the timing, I still think one cannon is pretty safe, but if you see it coming there's no reason not to start 2 cannons; you don't want to be losing sentries. My forcefields were pretty bad when the attack came but it didn't set me too far behind. Simply putting more structures to help your simcity in your natural will really help; since I can't see the replay I will just say this: put your forge in the natural as well as your 4th gateway oh heyo time Hey man, thanks for the tips, but I can't get the replay.. it looks like link is dead? just says error
Hmm it's possible it's members only for downloads I'll upload it to a different site.
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On May 10 2011 08:57 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:19 QTIP. wrote:On May 10 2011 05:05 Alejandrisha wrote:http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=1461Here is a replay of me playing against it. I couldn't see your replay because sc2replayed.com is down apparently. If he's really doing the losira timing you can absolutely get hallucinated phoenix in time to see it. You just need to start hallucination right after you finish warpgate, which I think is going to become standard in order to see this timing as you can't see it with probe scout unless the zerg is extremely careless. If you don't see the timing, I still think one cannon is pretty safe, but if you see it coming there's no reason not to start 2 cannons; you don't want to be losing sentries. My forcefields were pretty bad when the attack came but it didn't set me too far behind. Simply putting more structures to help your simcity in your natural will really help; since I can't see the replay I will just say this: put your forge in the natural as well as your 4th gateway oh heyo time Hey man, thanks for the tips, but I can't get the replay.. it looks like link is dead? just says error Hmm it's possible it's members only for downloads I'll upload it to a different site.
k thanks!
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lol.. sc2replayed is in a state of utter chaos. my file has been 1650th in the queue for the past half hour. Shoot me a PM and I can email it to you or something 
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You have to get really smart with the scouting Probe to catch this, and even so a good Zerg will deny any scouting.
However, you could have the Probe at the entrance of your natural, with the Sentries closer to the ramp, so that at least you have some reaction time to get good Force Fields.
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attack came from 7:25 to 8:30
could have pulled probes on the lings
2 zealots were trapped by your own forcefield
some earlier pressure would have been nice.
(his natural is done being built at 4:00 and army arrives at 6:10 with 10 zerglings)...
during the army collision at 8:00, he had droned at his nat for 4 minutes with 5 drones on average, thus he had a lead of 2k minerals over you
blah this is prolly bad advice
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Hey,
When you are scouting, what is the tell for the losira build? I have gotten dropped by this a few times this weekend and people have been hiding their units and jumped me right when the Nexus completed. It was pretty tragic from there.
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It's not really possible to scout the timing that hits right when your nexus completes. I mean, you can do it, but you have to burn chrono boosts on hallucination to the point where I'd rather just blindly prepare for it.
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I've been able to defend against this kind of attack, which is about 7-8 roaches + lings which comes at 8 minutes. I defend this by starting the nexus at 7 minutes, and getting the forge before that.
I end up with one cannon and a forge pylon, gateway wall, with about 1 zealot and 8 sentries. Is it counterproductive to delay the nexus for the sake of living vs this popular roach rush? I'm just asking this, because I'm only diamond, yet the OP is not delaying his own nexus for the build.
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As a zerg player, I'm very, very likely to do this (or something even cheesier) on close positions. I don't actually play on slag pits, but on maps where you spawn close, against toss, this is a very powerful weapon. Close positions metalopolis for example...I don't see a reason NOT to roach/ling all-in. The thing is, if toss survives getting his nexus up he's either going to hit me with the quickest 6 gate ever (hardly needs a proxy pylon) or wait for collosus, which will be essentially unstoppable.
That said, you can afford to play safe as toss in close positions, because you have a map advantage in close positions. Once you get your forge up, get two cannons. Get another when you see him move out, somewhere where it won't be sniped while warping in. Warp in stalkers once you see roaches moving across the map. Spam forcefields like a madman and try to catch the roaches in positions where you can hit them with stalkers/cannons and few/none of them can hit back. Once the roaches are dead, you can hold the lings with well placed zealots and a couple forcefields.
Also, I believe this generally hits before hallucinate, so I don't really think you can scout for it. If you see low drone counts at the nat, or you see him building roaches (unlikely, if he's hiding them correctly) that's a good indicator that it's coming. Or just give it a high chance to happen close positions, especially if he opens lingspeed.
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The "Losira version" comes after Hallucination (more economic version that hits around 8:00, 8:30 on bigger maps). It's designed to exploit the fact that the natural is very open on certain maps and depends quite heavily on the protoss not making a wall from natural to ramp. It also isn't nearly as all-in as what most people do on the ladder. Their attacks typically land a minute earlier with a lot less drones and is much more all-in.
That said, Hallucination is unlikely to give you more than 30-40 sec warning as the roaches will be rallied over straight from their hatch to the front of your base. At the cost of 2 forcefields, which are very precious at this point. You should be getting Hallucination anyway, but as someone else mentioned above, I would rather just be safe and not cut corners by teching too early and spend the chrono's on probes to not fall behind in case he went the economic route.
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On May 10 2011 12:28 Xahhk wrote:
I've been able to defend against this kind of attack, which is about 7-8 roaches + lings which comes at 8 minutes. I defend this by starting the nexus at 7 minutes, and getting the forge before that.
I end up with one cannon and a forge pylon, gateway wall, with about 1 zealot and 8 sentries. Is it counterproductive to delay the nexus for the sake of living vs this popular roach rush? I'm just asking this, because I'm only diamond, yet the OP is not delaying his own nexus for the build.
If you can be safe by delaying the nexus a bit, it's better than dying. But obviously it's ideal to be able to build the nexus as fast as possible, and on maps where the rush distance is not 2 seconds long you CAN defend with the standard timing.
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It doesn't help you to start your nexus a minute later. You can go expand-forge-cannon in time for the timing so expanding later is only shooting yourself in the foot.
You can scout it with hallucination. You can't scout it any other way. WG finishes at about ~6 minutes with 3gate expand and hallucination takes 60 seconds to research. With a CB or 2 on it (I find blindly chronoboosting probes to be extremely greedy when you are in the dark, which you are at this point in the game) you can scout it as the roaches are hatching, which is really the only tell for this build (besides roach warren before lair starts)
Here is the replay I tried posting before
http://replayfu.com/download/3rqDRt
And if you make any further claims in this neck of the forum you had better have evidence to back it up.
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I'm sorry I do not have time to go indepth in your post, but I know that you do have problems with the losira stlye 2 base pressure. It is not allin, because they secure a 3rd. Although if you crush the force with minimal losses then you are ahead. For my 3gate 3xpo I put my forge down right after I put down my nexus and start +1 attack right away with chrono. Usually it finished before the push, but with short rush distances i'm not so sure. You will need cannons. Assuming the zerg can micro you need at least 1 cannon up. Your hallu will be up before the rush so you will scout it by the sheer number or roach/lings made. At your expo you need you have some sort of wall for your sentries to stand behind. Then it just comes down to your FF. That is basically it lol. You need to put good FF and be stalker sentry based due to the roaches. Make sure you FF sentries if attack by lings, but the main goal is to "cup" a good amount of roaches in FF while the others are dancing behind them trying to get in the fight. That is basically it, FF + good positioning and you will succeed!
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So now that hallu is delayed by 20 seconds by the WG research time change, is it still possible to scout this build with hallu? Does it just mean that you have to spend an extra chrono on WG every match to have the possibility of scouting this attack in time?
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Talking about your game.
It looks like you just do the same thing whatever the map, whatever you opponent is doing.
First, your oponent went hatch first, you should not play as if it were a pool first. Against a hatch first, I think you should either expand sooner or apply some pressure, or do something else than 3gate expand.
There is no excuse for not scouting the gas timing, the zerg has litteraly no unit to stop your probe. You should have known that speed would not be completed before the 6min40 mark. If you had made a stalker, you would have complete map control at least untill the 6min mark. You would probably have killed 1 overlord, you would have forced the zerg to make units, and you would have a much better idea of what is coming.
The zerg went for a 15 hatch, 17 pool, and at the 6min mark he had litteraly no units (except the 2 queens), no speed, and roach warren only half way done. You can not allow that to happen, unless you are going for a 4 gate in which case you get an easy win.
Just one stalker (or two !), you get map control, force units (maybe even a spine), and are free to build your 2nd & 3rd gateway at the bottom of your ramp which I really prefer on this map.
At the end of the game, you say that the zerg is all-in, but he is really not. He has roughly the same amount of harvester as you, he has upgrades going on, and he has enough units to secure a 3rd.
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On May 11 2011 02:10 Elean wrote:
Talking about your game.
It looks like you just do the same thing whatever the map, whatever you opponent is doing.
First, your oponent went hatch first, you should not play as if it were a pool first. Against a hatch first, I think you should either expand sooner or apply some pressure, or do something else than 3gate expand.
There is no excuse for not scouting the gas timing, the zerg has litteraly no unit to stop your probe. You should have known that speed would not be completed before the 6min40 mark. If you had made a stalker, you would have complete map control at least untill the 6min mark. You would probably have killed 1 overlord, you would have forced the zerg to make units, and you would have a much better idea of what is coming.
The zerg went for a 15 hatch, 17 pool, and at the 6min mark he had litteraly no units (except the 2 queens), no speed, and roach warren only half way done. You can not allow that to happen, unless you are going for a 4 gate in which case you get an easy win.
Just one stalker (or two !), you get map control, force units (maybe even a spine), and are free to build your 2nd & 3rd gateway at the bottom of your ramp which I really prefer on this map.
At the end of the game, you say that the zerg is all-in, but he is really not. He has roughly the same amount of harvester as you, he has upgrades going on, and he has enough units to secure a 3rd.
Hey, thanks for the tips. One thing does bother me though, I clearly state in the OP that I initially thought it was all-in, though upon review, I realized it was not. Also, 2 stalker rush means less/slower sentries, which also means less energy. Sure I get map control, but I feel like I'll need as many sentries as possible to hold this attack when it comes.
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On May 10 2011 23:12 Alejandrisha wrote:It doesn't help you to start your nexus a minute later. You can go expand-forge-cannon in time for the timing so expanding later is only shooting yourself in the foot. You can scout it with hallucination. You can't scout it any other way. WG finishes at about ~6 minutes with 3gate expand and hallucination takes 60 seconds to research. With a CB or 2 on it (I find blindly chronoboosting probes to be extremely greedy when you are in the dark, which you are at this point in the game) you can scout it as the roaches are hatching, which is really the only tell for this build (besides roach warren before lair starts) Here is the replay I tried posting before http://replayfu.com/download/3rqDRtAnd if you make any further claims in this neck of the forum you had better have evidence to back it up.
Thank you! Will check this out after work.
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EPT
