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On May 10 2011 08:57 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 05:19 QTIP. wrote:On May 10 2011 05:05 Alejandrisha wrote:http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=1461Here is a replay of me playing against it. I couldn't see your replay because sc2replayed.com is down apparently. If he's really doing the losira timing you can absolutely get hallucinated phoenix in time to see it. You just need to start hallucination right after you finish warpgate, which I think is going to become standard in order to see this timing as you can't see it with probe scout unless the zerg is extremely careless. If you don't see the timing, I still think one cannon is pretty safe, but if you see it coming there's no reason not to start 2 cannons; you don't want to be losing sentries. My forcefields were pretty bad when the attack came but it didn't set me too far behind. Simply putting more structures to help your simcity in your natural will really help; since I can't see the replay I will just say this: put your forge in the natural as well as your 4th gateway oh heyo time Hey man, thanks for the tips, but I can't get the replay.. it looks like link is dead? just says error Hmm it's possible it's members only for downloads I'll upload it to a different site.
k thanks!
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lol.. sc2replayed is in a state of utter chaos. my file has been 1650th in the queue for the past half hour. Shoot me a PM and I can email it to you or something 
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You have to get really smart with the scouting Probe to catch this, and even so a good Zerg will deny any scouting.
However, you could have the Probe at the entrance of your natural, with the Sentries closer to the ramp, so that at least you have some reaction time to get good Force Fields.
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attack came from 7:25 to 8:30
could have pulled probes on the lings
2 zealots were trapped by your own forcefield
some earlier pressure would have been nice.
(his natural is done being built at 4:00 and army arrives at 6:10 with 10 zerglings)...
during the army collision at 8:00, he had droned at his nat for 4 minutes with 5 drones on average, thus he had a lead of 2k minerals over you
blah this is prolly bad advice
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Hey,
When you are scouting, what is the tell for the losira build? I have gotten dropped by this a few times this weekend and people have been hiding their units and jumped me right when the Nexus completed. It was pretty tragic from there.
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It's not really possible to scout the timing that hits right when your nexus completes. I mean, you can do it, but you have to burn chrono boosts on hallucination to the point where I'd rather just blindly prepare for it.
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I've been able to defend against this kind of attack, which is about 7-8 roaches + lings which comes at 8 minutes. I defend this by starting the nexus at 7 minutes, and getting the forge before that.
I end up with one cannon and a forge pylon, gateway wall, with about 1 zealot and 8 sentries. Is it counterproductive to delay the nexus for the sake of living vs this popular roach rush? I'm just asking this, because I'm only diamond, yet the OP is not delaying his own nexus for the build.
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As a zerg player, I'm very, very likely to do this (or something even cheesier) on close positions. I don't actually play on slag pits, but on maps where you spawn close, against toss, this is a very powerful weapon. Close positions metalopolis for example...I don't see a reason NOT to roach/ling all-in. The thing is, if toss survives getting his nexus up he's either going to hit me with the quickest 6 gate ever (hardly needs a proxy pylon) or wait for collosus, which will be essentially unstoppable.
That said, you can afford to play safe as toss in close positions, because you have a map advantage in close positions. Once you get your forge up, get two cannons. Get another when you see him move out, somewhere where it won't be sniped while warping in. Warp in stalkers once you see roaches moving across the map. Spam forcefields like a madman and try to catch the roaches in positions where you can hit them with stalkers/cannons and few/none of them can hit back. Once the roaches are dead, you can hold the lings with well placed zealots and a couple forcefields.
Also, I believe this generally hits before hallucinate, so I don't really think you can scout for it. If you see low drone counts at the nat, or you see him building roaches (unlikely, if he's hiding them correctly) that's a good indicator that it's coming. Or just give it a high chance to happen close positions, especially if he opens lingspeed.
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The "Losira version" comes after Hallucination (more economic version that hits around 8:00, 8:30 on bigger maps). It's designed to exploit the fact that the natural is very open on certain maps and depends quite heavily on the protoss not making a wall from natural to ramp. It also isn't nearly as all-in as what most people do on the ladder. Their attacks typically land a minute earlier with a lot less drones and is much more all-in.
That said, Hallucination is unlikely to give you more than 30-40 sec warning as the roaches will be rallied over straight from their hatch to the front of your base. At the cost of 2 forcefields, which are very precious at this point. You should be getting Hallucination anyway, but as someone else mentioned above, I would rather just be safe and not cut corners by teching too early and spend the chrono's on probes to not fall behind in case he went the economic route.
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On May 10 2011 12:28 Xahhk wrote:
I've been able to defend against this kind of attack, which is about 7-8 roaches + lings which comes at 8 minutes. I defend this by starting the nexus at 7 minutes, and getting the forge before that.
I end up with one cannon and a forge pylon, gateway wall, with about 1 zealot and 8 sentries. Is it counterproductive to delay the nexus for the sake of living vs this popular roach rush? I'm just asking this, because I'm only diamond, yet the OP is not delaying his own nexus for the build.
If you can be safe by delaying the nexus a bit, it's better than dying. But obviously it's ideal to be able to build the nexus as fast as possible, and on maps where the rush distance is not 2 seconds long you CAN defend with the standard timing.
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It doesn't help you to start your nexus a minute later. You can go expand-forge-cannon in time for the timing so expanding later is only shooting yourself in the foot.
You can scout it with hallucination. You can't scout it any other way. WG finishes at about ~6 minutes with 3gate expand and hallucination takes 60 seconds to research. With a CB or 2 on it (I find blindly chronoboosting probes to be extremely greedy when you are in the dark, which you are at this point in the game) you can scout it as the roaches are hatching, which is really the only tell for this build (besides roach warren before lair starts)
Here is the replay I tried posting before
http://replayfu.com/download/3rqDRt
And if you make any further claims in this neck of the forum you had better have evidence to back it up.
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I'm sorry I do not have time to go indepth in your post, but I know that you do have problems with the losira stlye 2 base pressure. It is not allin, because they secure a 3rd. Although if you crush the force with minimal losses then you are ahead. For my 3gate 3xpo I put my forge down right after I put down my nexus and start +1 attack right away with chrono. Usually it finished before the push, but with short rush distances i'm not so sure. You will need cannons. Assuming the zerg can micro you need at least 1 cannon up. Your hallu will be up before the rush so you will scout it by the sheer number or roach/lings made. At your expo you need you have some sort of wall for your sentries to stand behind. Then it just comes down to your FF. That is basically it lol. You need to put good FF and be stalker sentry based due to the roaches. Make sure you FF sentries if attack by lings, but the main goal is to "cup" a good amount of roaches in FF while the others are dancing behind them trying to get in the fight. That is basically it, FF + good positioning and you will succeed!
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So now that hallu is delayed by 20 seconds by the WG research time change, is it still possible to scout this build with hallu? Does it just mean that you have to spend an extra chrono on WG every match to have the possibility of scouting this attack in time?
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Talking about your game.
It looks like you just do the same thing whatever the map, whatever you opponent is doing.
First, your oponent went hatch first, you should not play as if it were a pool first. Against a hatch first, I think you should either expand sooner or apply some pressure, or do something else than 3gate expand.
There is no excuse for not scouting the gas timing, the zerg has litteraly no unit to stop your probe. You should have known that speed would not be completed before the 6min40 mark. If you had made a stalker, you would have complete map control at least untill the 6min mark. You would probably have killed 1 overlord, you would have forced the zerg to make units, and you would have a much better idea of what is coming.
The zerg went for a 15 hatch, 17 pool, and at the 6min mark he had litteraly no units (except the 2 queens), no speed, and roach warren only half way done. You can not allow that to happen, unless you are going for a 4 gate in which case you get an easy win.
Just one stalker (or two !), you get map control, force units (maybe even a spine), and are free to build your 2nd & 3rd gateway at the bottom of your ramp which I really prefer on this map.
At the end of the game, you say that the zerg is all-in, but he is really not. He has roughly the same amount of harvester as you, he has upgrades going on, and he has enough units to secure a 3rd.
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On May 11 2011 02:10 Elean wrote:
Talking about your game.
It looks like you just do the same thing whatever the map, whatever you opponent is doing.
First, your oponent went hatch first, you should not play as if it were a pool first. Against a hatch first, I think you should either expand sooner or apply some pressure, or do something else than 3gate expand.
There is no excuse for not scouting the gas timing, the zerg has litteraly no unit to stop your probe. You should have known that speed would not be completed before the 6min40 mark. If you had made a stalker, you would have complete map control at least untill the 6min mark. You would probably have killed 1 overlord, you would have forced the zerg to make units, and you would have a much better idea of what is coming.
The zerg went for a 15 hatch, 17 pool, and at the 6min mark he had litteraly no units (except the 2 queens), no speed, and roach warren only half way done. You can not allow that to happen, unless you are going for a 4 gate in which case you get an easy win.
Just one stalker (or two !), you get map control, force units (maybe even a spine), and are free to build your 2nd & 3rd gateway at the bottom of your ramp which I really prefer on this map.
At the end of the game, you say that the zerg is all-in, but he is really not. He has roughly the same amount of harvester as you, he has upgrades going on, and he has enough units to secure a 3rd.
Hey, thanks for the tips. One thing does bother me though, I clearly state in the OP that I initially thought it was all-in, though upon review, I realized it was not. Also, 2 stalker rush means less/slower sentries, which also means less energy. Sure I get map control, but I feel like I'll need as many sentries as possible to hold this attack when it comes.
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On May 10 2011 23:12 Alejandrisha wrote:It doesn't help you to start your nexus a minute later. You can go expand-forge-cannon in time for the timing so expanding later is only shooting yourself in the foot. You can scout it with hallucination. You can't scout it any other way. WG finishes at about ~6 minutes with 3gate expand and hallucination takes 60 seconds to research. With a CB or 2 on it (I find blindly chronoboosting probes to be extremely greedy when you are in the dark, which you are at this point in the game) you can scout it as the roaches are hatching, which is really the only tell for this build (besides roach warren before lair starts) Here is the replay I tried posting before http://replayfu.com/download/3rqDRtAnd if you make any further claims in this neck of the forum you had better have evidence to back it up.
Thank you! Will check this out after work.
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EPT
