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[D] Losira vs Alicia and the future of PvZ

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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truthless
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden120 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-30 08:19:58
April 28 2011 16:31 GMT
#1
As I'm sure some of you haven't watched the games yet, be warned that this thread is going to contain spoilers for the games, so go watch them here first.

With that done, I'd like to get on with describing the games and opening up the discussion. I was hoping someone else would get this started, since it's my first time starting a topic, but I'm running out of patience waiting for it

edit2: Note that I never meant to imply that this build is the future of the matchup - I was only using the game as a basis for discussing the future of the matchup. I would change the topic if I could, since it seems to be pissing people off. But I can't. Deal with it.

Game 1
+ Show Spoiler +
Cross positions. Alicia scouts counterclockwise on pylon, finds Losira going pool/gas first, proceeds to drop Core. Losira is able to drop his hatch without being blocked. Losira gets 4 lings out and the probe retreats around 3:45 as usual. Alicia adds two gates and intends to do a standard sentry expand. Losira drones hard and adds metabolic boost (relatively late, only one drone on gas, doesn't start until 5:00), as well as dropping a roach warren at 5:40. Double queens.

Now things get interesting. After getting to 34 drones he starts producing roaches and lings exclusively and rallying them over to the Protoss base. The nexus is dropped at a standard timing, hallucination is being researched, forge has been added on and a cannon is warping in, and Alicia starts moving out with 7 sentries and 2 zealots to apply some pressure. He gets caught by some of the early lings, has to use some forcefields to be able to retreat to his natural. Adds 3 stalkers. Losira rallies only lings at this point.

Some of the best forcefields I've ever seen save Alicia from losing the game straight up at this point. He loses several probes to killing the last of the roaches. At the aftermath of this, Losira has somehow managed to drop his third as well as switched over to drones instead of lings as soon as he saw his roaches fall. He still has about 25 lings on the field, which gives him map control over the severely harried force of Alicia. He's up in supply 72 vs 55, and up in workers roughly (hard to tell with a VOD) 50 vs 33.

Losira adds another queen, adds an evo chamber and gets his Lair tech. Alicia gets a robo. Losira keeps droning hard and begins +1 ranged as well as creep spreading. Burrow and overlord speed is researched shortly after Lair finishes, and Losira adds an Overseer. A 4th gate is added by Alicia, as well as a Twilight Council and +1 attack.

The first observer is built by Alicia and he also hallucinates a Void Ray instead of a Phoenix and shows it to an Overlord. Losira adds a sporecrawler and drops a Hydra den, as well as begins researching drops. Immortal comes out for Alicia. Hydras being hatched for Losira.

Alicia continues production of Immortals and gets his third. Losira keeps making drones and hydras and spreading that creep. Losira now has 5 queens on the field, 2 completely devoted to laying creep tumors. It's now 109 vs 88 supply and 77 drones vs 46 probes.

Alicia begins researching blink and adds a robo bay and 3 more gates, and moves out after scouting Losira with a hallu-phoenix. Losira keeps pumping out hydras, and starts adding in roaches. Alicia walks around killing the occasional ling scout, Losira gets started on +1 melee and keeps producing roaches and lings, as well as drops another hatch (his 4th base) in the "natural" spot. Alicia pokes at it and meets a fearsome army (now 150 vs 94 supply).

Alicia executes flawless forcefields and shuts away the entire roach/hydra army from his lings. He begins retreating after killing the lings. Yet another set of flawless forcefields traps a few of the roaches and denies all the hydras, but his army gets trapped on Losira's part of the map. Losira splits his roach/hydra army in half and flanks from three sides with ling reinforcements making up the third side. Excellent forcefields denies one half of the roach/hydra army, but the 2/3rds that are not forcefielded are enough to defeat Alicia's forces.

168 vs 79 supply at the end of that. During the fight, a baneling nest, a second evo chamber and a spire has been dropped for Losira, and the first Colossus has come out for Alicia. +1 carapace gets started. Losira attacks the third through the backdoor with speedlings while he gets his main army (roach/hydra) in position in the natural. Losira focusfires the nexus at the natural and retreats with his hydras.

Losira begins researching baneling speed and Alicia begins researching thermal lances. Losira makes a bunch of banelings and a few corruptors and roaches, while Alicia keeps adding Colossi. Losira loads up 5 overlords with banelings, sends one to drop at the mineral line of the third base. Some great micro from Alicia at this last fight, but Losira's army is simply too big. GG.

Game 2
+ Show Spoiler +
Cross positions. Alicia scouts on pylon and finds Losira before he has built anything. Losira pulls out a drone to get his natural, but drops the gas and pool as soon as the probe leaves. Alicia drops a pylon to block the hatch but cancels it, and Losira drops the hatch shortly thereafter. Alicia once again does the standard gate/core opening off 2gas.

Losira makes 4 lings like last time, doesn't start his metabolic boost until 4:15 (1 drone on gas) and drops his roach warren at 5:40. On the other side of the map, we see the pattern repeating here; Alicia gets his 3 gates, gets a lot of sentries out, and takes his natural. After that he drops a stargate followed by a forge. Losira drops an evo chamber.

At 6:40 Losira begins his pressure and makes 8 roaches just like last time, followed by speedlings. Alicia supplyblocks himself and delays the first voidray slightly. 33 drones vs 28 probes. A cannon is warped in at the natural. Alicia makes a phoenix. Speedlings charge into the mineral lines, the roaches charge into the front. Excellent forcefields at the start, but eventually he misses one and the lings get through and rip the sentries to shreds.

The voidray is unable to do significant damage to the roaches, there aren't enough stalkers, and Losira overwhelms Alicia. GG.

Game 3
+ Show Spoiler +

Some analysis
+ Show Spoiler +
Losira is showcasing what to me looks like an amazing opening against Protoss. I kept thinking, how do you stop this without crippling yourself? We already see that Losira is ahead in economy - he has his natural up and running with more drones than Alicia has probes, and Alicia can't, imho, take that expansion faster than he is and be safe against what might be coming out of Losira.

The biggest problem here is the gaping hole of information from 3:50, when the first lings come out and chase away the scouting probe, until 7:00-7:30 or so when the first hallucination might get across the field. At that point it's too late. A stalker would perhaps be a wise investment instead of the sentry in order to regain map control until ling speed completes at 6:00 (although, technically, if Losira had 3 drones in gas, the metabolic boost would be started a full minute earlier, and thus, complete a full minute earlier). Once again, lack of information, while the zerg holds all the cards.

If the protoss is one-basing and isn't getting his expansion, you don't need to execute this roach/ling pressure build, and can simply tech up and prepare for a longer game with the economic advantage. In fact, I would argue that Losira only commits to the pressure build when he sees the Nexus go up. I'm fairly certain that if Alicia was one-basing, Losira would try to find out what he's doing with an overlord and simply get a few more drones and play it 2base vs 1base. Something the zerg should always be able to come out on top with.

Artosis claims that fast DTs will destroy this, but in the second game we see Losira dropping an evo chamber well in time to drop a spore before any DTs arrive. He should be relatively safe from a DT rush. But, that doesn't mean DTs are a horrible answer. Even if you are unable to do any offensive damage at all with your DTs, you can defend your expansion with it and regain map control until the zerg is sitting on Lair tech. This should make you safe against the opening at least.

This does raise another concern however; will DT rushing be the only way to stop this build? Will thus DT expansions (as zerg will become accustomed to DT rushes and include the evo chamber and spores) be the standard way of playing PvZ in the future? Or is there some other way to stop this build as well?


edit: Just correcting some typos. Don't mind me!
He who adds is to be revered. I am he who takes away.
JonnyLaw
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3482 Posts
April 28 2011 16:39 GMT
#2
This build is incredibly difficult to stop. If well executed on maps with open naturals (I tried it on xel'naga) in short-mid rush distances I have practiced against it a good amount trying 3gate expand.

I started dropping a forge in my base as soon as I had the minerals with 3gates on CD. I place one cannon and chrono hallucinate. If the roaches are incoming, I found that dropping another 2-3 cannons and delaying until they finish and you get a robo or two more gates online can stop this rush.

Also, forge expand crushes it if you go straight into 4-5 gate + a robo or stargate. The preemptive cannons really make a difference against roaches.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6257 Posts
April 28 2011 16:44 GMT
#3
+ Show Spoiler +
In my mind, Losira plays how a zerg should play, and not too dissimilar to July. Zergs have the capability of churning out a very quick attack force to exploit timings where a greedy protoss may be weak but we have not seen this style much
Mimus
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada13 Posts
April 28 2011 16:44 GMT
#4
Really excited to try it out :D!!
Hurrah for a recent influx of cool zerg builds (spanishwa, 9 pool, this)
"Man a fuckin Monkey could play that game ya know, Like you got a lvl 20 Suck a Dick verse a Level 50 Who gives a fuck" -Surfer4Life on WoW.
Anomandaris
Profile Joined July 2010
Afghanistan440 Posts
April 28 2011 16:45 GMT
#5
This is not the future of PvZ. It is the current PvZ that I face since 2-3 weeks. Roach+lings attacks against 3 gate expo are fairly common on eu ladder and baneling drops is used as well. Especially since 2 ground upgrades make baneling one shot probes, baneling drops are very effective.
truthless
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden120 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-28 16:57:31
April 28 2011 16:48 GMT
#6
I really don't like FFE. It suffers from two major problems imho;

- being incredibly defensive, allowing the zerg to drone up unprevented assuming he can stop any stargate harrass, and even grab a third before you're able to marshal a force capable of pressuring him
- being incredibly vulnerable to baneling busts followed by speedlings (see July vs Frozen in the last GSTL for example)

I feel like it's hitting too late if you have hallucination up. The zerg should literally be on your doorstep at 7 minutes flat with 8 roaches and 30 or so speedlings. Alicia was able to warp in a single cannon and barely finished his third warpin from his 3 gates before Losira reached him on Terminus RE cross positions; which is a HUGE map.
He who adds is to be revered. I am he who takes away.
truthless
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden120 Posts
April 28 2011 16:51 GMT
#7
On April 29 2011 01:45 Anomandaris wrote:
This is not the future of PvZ. It is the current PvZ that I face since 2-3 weeks. Roach+lings attacks against 3 gate expo are fairly common on eu ladder and baneling drops is used as well. Especially since 2 ground upgrades make baneling one shot probes, baneling drops are very effective.


Perhaps I was unclear with the topic; the limit on characters wouldn't allow me to describe it further. I meant the two points to be separate, but connected in a way. I wanted to use the Losira vs Alicia games as a basis for talking about the future of PvZ and where the metagame might be going from here.
He who adds is to be revered. I am he who takes away.
Ohdamn
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany765 Posts
April 28 2011 16:51 GMT
#8
if you know it's coming you can for sure hold it...
if this build is getting popular people will start scouting for it and they will be rdy for it

there's nothing overpowered or imba there..
"If you can chill....chill!"
tskarzyn
Profile Joined July 2010
United States516 Posts
April 28 2011 16:51 GMT
#9
This is my basic ZvP opener and has been working very well.... Great vs 3 gate expand, obv crushes 4 gate, can kill toss straight up if he invests in early air and skimps on ground units. If you fail to deny/kill toss's nexus at the nat and you dont do significant damage you will be behind, but even then you can just do a full production cycle of drones and not be too far behind.
Ansinjunger
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2451 Posts
April 28 2011 17:04 GMT
#10
How are you supposed to scout this when they have speedlings, and will hallucinate (perhaps the only scout) be up in time after the warp gate research changes from 140 to 180 seconds? I understand Artosis "get DT's" to counter it, but you can't do that blind and it takes forever too. I saw someone in the LR thread say it beats "greedy Protosses." Since when is 3 gate expand greedy?
babysimba
Profile Joined November 2010
10466 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-28 17:05:10
April 28 2011 17:04 GMT
#11
On April 28 2011 21:20 babysimba wrote:
The reason why Alicia lost to that aggression so easily is because he did not build a wall in front of his natural. It might be a mindfk maneuver (cancel nexus 4wg), but losira just went ahead with the aggression anyway.


This was what i said in the LR thread after the games, but nobody seems to care. It's a price that Alicia pay for hiding scouting info. from zerg.

In the first game, he moved out unnecessarily wasting forcefields in the process, and he almost manage to hold. If he had partially walled off with his forge (that was in his base) and an extra gateway (he expanded earlier than usual before the required sentry count thus might not afford be to afford or he chose not to for whatever reason), he would be able to hold even with the wasted forcefield out on the field, since he will only need half the forcefield to defend.

In the second game, again there was no wall, and he took the risk of teching up to stargate instead of extra gateways. A stargate that early can help delay zerg's third with voidrays which will proceed to a macro rape easily in the late game (July vs MC Group Stage Xel'nega Caverns). It was a strat that comes with some risk, and Alicia makes it riskier by not building the forge at the natural.
Netto.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Poland523 Posts
April 28 2011 17:05 GMT
#12
Hey could you upload or give any link to those replays please?
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Ciddass
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany149 Posts
April 28 2011 17:05 GMT
#13
the builld is semi-allin and only works on maps with wide naturals. forcefields reign supreme vs. this and if the protoss has more than 1 cannon up you won't do any damage and therefore be behind with 3base and 38 drones (lol) and no army. your lair is late, your burrow is late everything is late. a direct counter attack will kill the zerg with no problem at all.
good to know push but heavy dependent on map/natural expansion.
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
April 28 2011 17:11 GMT
#14
nice write up. but what makes you think that this is different from what the zergs have been doing? is it the 1 drone on one gas? i can see how that helps a bit getting more minerals. other than that one gas one drone build I see no difference. roach ling pressure has always been quite strong.
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
April 28 2011 17:12 GMT
#15
On April 29 2011 02:05 Netto. wrote:
Hey could you upload or give any link to those replays please?


go to gomtv.net bro...we dont get gomtv.net reps nor can we upload em.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
April 28 2011 17:13 GMT
#16
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games..

Losira did a very standard roach/ling push which has been done tons of time before.. Pool first, expand and then push around 32-36 drones. You get 1 round of roaches, march these over and then continously pump lings. You have a small mineral build up because 30 drones get more income then you can spend with 2 hatch 2 queen so you can expand during the attack and quickly switch back to droning when you want. Also because the attack only sends over 1 batch of roaches and then only lings it is actually not that relevant how big the map is.

If the protoss has a cannon and defends well they are ahead. However alicia didn't defend too well:
- he moved out early before hallucination finished. This already costed him a ton of energy and i believe a unit or 2 because he got caught in the middle of the map. 'shark mode' is a good thing and important to stop the Z droning up too freely but on such a huge map it is incredibly risky. 3 gate sentry expand simply sucks hard on these big maps for that very reason imo, you can't boom that fast nor can you pressure safely. There is simply no reason not to FFE or at least 1 gate FE on that map...
- his cannon was late and the pylon powering it got killed, the cannon in fact only cost him money.
- after the attack he was actually in reasonable shape (behind but still winnable) but he made a horrendous attack at Z's expo and already got his nexus sniped earlier.

In a nutshell, the way losira played has already been done tons of times and it's a good tactic but has weaknesses like any other pressure build by Z. If it is defended properly Z is behind alot.
Alicia just played bad tactically by doing a stupid opener for the map and choosing a very poor time to move out. Part of that was just unlucky and part was stupid for not getting hallucination faster. His good forcefields only kept him in the game longer but it is not that hard to forcefield well on defense, he just managed to do with very few forcefields which he had to after wasting energy by getting caught in the open.

One thing i do agree on, this aggresive style of play is very good for zerg when going roach play. Going roaches and playing passive, ie hitting the supply cap, is just bad. I think the main reason this happens so much is that zerg seems to be the best booming race at first because they can drone so hard and they are the best boomer in SC:BW. In sc2 however P booms best and you have to be aggresive agaisnt them or you just lose (or use a strat with a good endgame like ultra, ling, infestor).
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
April 28 2011 17:17 GMT
#17
I would just sum up Losira's style as 2 base roach ling aggression into taking your third and pushing again with hydras on three base because protoss will likely have low colossus count and then taking your fourth into an unknown army composition because the game didn't go on that long.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
GxZ
Profile Joined April 2010
United States375 Posts
April 28 2011 17:24 GMT
#18
You might want to add spoilers in the tag. Also for other people posting as well.
Gryffes
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom763 Posts
April 28 2011 17:35 GMT
#19
On April 29 2011 02:24 GxZ wrote:
You might want to add spoilers in the tag. Also for other people posting as well.


You don't think people can think "hmm did I watch Alicia vs Losira yet?" and then decide if they want to click or not?

www.youtube.com/gryffes - Random Gaming Videos.
Warrior Madness
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada3791 Posts
April 28 2011 17:36 GMT
#20
On April 29 2011 02:13 Markwerf wrote:
Why do people continously try to read too much from these GSL games...


Can't agree with this more. Zergs have been doing this forever. And it's not exactly a solid strategy, it's super cheesy. In fact Idra did this cheese to counter a fake 3 gate into 4 gate cheese in a recent NASL series.
The Past: Yellow, Julyzerg, Chojja, Savior, GGplay -- The Present: Luxury, Jae- The Future: -Dong, maGma, Zero, Effort, Hoejja, hyvaa, by.hero, calm, Action ---> SC2 (Ret?? Kolll Idra!! SEN, Cool, ZergBong, Leenock)
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