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On September 23 2011 14:11 Fishgle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 13:29 bGr.MetHiX wrote:
I'm a 1250 masters toss on eu and i want to say that this is easily counterable by chronoing out a sentry,then a stalker and another stalker while getting cannons at back.when forge fast expanding i take a second scouting probe and hide it around the map.i try to scout a fast third,if i dont see a fast third with my second probe i start the chronoing and adding a 3rd cannon.the key to a FFE is the scouting around the 6th-7th mark and every half decent protoss player knows howto scout this and react correspondingly.of course there is a way to see whether u pulled those drones off gas. This build isn't vs a 1gate expand, it's a build to counter the FFE, which is a lot more greedy, and the basis of his argument: a risky, but powerful early game push can and should be used to punish greedy players.
im sorry,but why do u even participate in this conversation,you obviously have no idea beyond the platinum league,am i right?
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It's a very sexy all in that works a good portion of the time. Nice that you wrote up an actual build for it, I was usually winging it. Thanks man!
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On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote:
Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout.
I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed.
The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect.
A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold.
In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg).
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This is nothing new at all. You're better off just doing the standard roach/ ling aggression that cuts drones at 30. It hits a tad later but is much less all in, as you can either spam drones or speedlings behind it depending on how it goes. If you leave drones in gas after the roaches, get a lair and plus one, then get third. If not, drone harder and take earlier third. Plugging your name on an extremely common timing is stupid.
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On September 24 2011 04:05 DoctorFunk wrote:
This is nothing new at all. You're better off just doing the standard roach/ ling aggression that cuts drones at 30. It hits a tad later but is much less all in, as you can either spam drones or speedlings behind it depending on how it goes. If you leave drones in gas after the roaches, get a lair and plus one, then get third. If not, drone harder and take earlier third. Plugging your name on an extremely common timing is stupid.
You contradict yourself, if the 30 drone roach / ling allin is standard (as you assert) then I am not advocating a common timing but rather an altered and much earlier version of it.
As for the frequency of use, perhaps you have had a different experience, but I have not seen the 18 drone variant I am advocating used in much of anything. As for the efficacy, do a 30 roach / ling if you wish, but that isn't the point of this thread, which is to attack an economically aggressive Protoss before he has the ability to do much of anything. In that respect, waiting is counter-productive to the goal, which is hitting the Protoss hard, early, and with enough damage to cripple him into the late-game.
In any case, I feel the track record speaks for itself. Up through high masters this build is enormously effective against Protoss FFE, and in my opinion remains strong on all skill levels. Please feel free to check my match history on battlenet for yourself (bogie.359), this build does not lose against the vast majority of Protoss FFE.
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I'm not doubting it's effectiveness, I use this timing also, but I have just come to prefer the ~28 drone version. I guess your variant comes somewhere between the 3 roach version and the 28 drone version. Less all-in than 3 roach(also much much harder to scout) but More than the 28 drone version. I guess I just prefer the more economic version.
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This build definetly works at times, altho after trying it out, as people have said, i feel it is map dependant and the protoss needs to be really really greedy.
With a small natural choke like shakuras or nerazim and good sim city, 2 cannons and more than 1 sentry become a dealbreaker. And to be honest, neither 2 cannons, nor a couple of early sentries are unusual.
It does however just instant stomp them if the dude skipped sentries and went quick Stargate.
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On September 24 2011 02:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote:
Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout. I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed. The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect. A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold. In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg).
I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probes/zealots, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout.
Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend.
If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play.
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On September 25 2011 00:52 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 02:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote:
Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout. I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed. The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect. A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold. In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg). I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probe s/zealot s, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout. Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend. If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play.
I believe I covered this in the guide itself.
A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100.
After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd.
Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches.
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On September 25 2011 03:52 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 00:52 Anihc wrote:On September 24 2011 02:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote:
Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout. I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed. The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect. A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold. In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg). I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probe s/zealot s, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout. Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend. If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play. I believe I covered this in the guide itself. A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100. After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd. Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches.
Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad?
As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind.
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On September 25 2011 03:52 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 00:52 Anihc wrote:On September 24 2011 02:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote:
Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout. I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed. The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect. A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold. In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg). I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probe s/zealot s, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout. Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend. If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play. I believe I covered this in the guide itself. A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100. After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd.Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches.
that's actually standard play. Nowadays, you are supposed to do it if you can't have a second probe in the zerg's base. You will absolutely know if the zerg is doing something weird.
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I got really confused when I saw Hobbes. For some reason I thought of the enlightenment thinker.
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On September 25 2011 04:31 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 03:52 ThomasHobbes wrote:On September 25 2011 00:52 Anihc wrote:On September 24 2011 02:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote:
Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout. I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed. The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect. A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold. In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg). I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probe s/zealot s, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout. Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend. If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play. I believe I covered this in the guide itself. A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100. After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd. Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches. Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad? As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind.
It isn't that I don't think your zealot can't scout the presence or absence of a third, but rather what time it comes and whether that is significant to the build. I see LiquidHero reaching Idra's 3rd by the 6:30 mark, at which point the roaches should be hatched / hatching and moving across the map.
When are you sending this zealot out? When does he reach the opponents base? I've seen marked decrease of FFE in my ZvP matchups, so I can't experiment much against zealot openers.
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On September 25 2011 05:57 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 04:31 Anihc wrote:On September 25 2011 03:52 ThomasHobbes wrote:On September 25 2011 00:52 Anihc wrote:On September 24 2011 02:43 ThomasHobbes wrote:On September 24 2011 00:44 Anihc wrote:
Like many have said before me, this is just a roach/ling all-in, that perhaps comes at a "nontraditional" timing. Regardless, it's still scoutable with probes/zealots, and can be defended with additional cannons. It does not punish greedy play, it punishes people who don't scout. I will disagree here, this build is not easily scouted by a probe. The probe has only a single window around the 6:30 mark in which to see the roaches come out, and if the zerg player is adept at denying the scout, even that window can be closed. The Protoss simultaneously cannot exclude the possibility that the Zerg is taking a fast third somewhere on the map, and by the time that possibility is extinguished, the allin is already in effect. A double zealot scout will catch the roaches as they are 1/4 the way to the Protoss base, and while they will die, it does give the Protoss the chance to rush an immediate defense. Even in this case, however, the allin remains effective and is quite difficult to hold. In the current climate, when many Protoss forgo chrono'd zealots entirely, it punishes excessively greedy play, and yes, I would consider not scouting an additional form of greed (it certainly is for zerg). I never said it was "easy" to scout, PvZ early game scouting is never easy. Also noticed I specified probe s/zealot s, of course 1 probe can't scout anything but multiple probes followed by 1-2 chronoed zealots can scout this. 4 lings will not be able to deny a probe/zealot scout. Also I don't have to see your roaches to be suspicious of an incoming all-in, there are many other tells that can cause me to drop additional cannons without even seeing your roaches. For example, my initial or second probe scout can see that you're still mining gas, and that can put me on alert. I will also definitely see your lack of a 3rd, and that always makes me make more cannons. Yes you're right the zerg can be taking a ninja 3rd, but I never see any zergs do this, it doesn't pay off because it just forces me to make a few additional cannons but it gives economic loss to the zerg as well because of the additional drone travel time, etc., and also in mid game if I scout it it's much much more difficult to defend. If by your "current climate" you mean bad protoss players, sure I'll give that to you. I have no doubts that you can easily win a lot with this build, but I never really like builds that focus on exploiting bad play. I believe I covered this in the guide itself. A Zerg still mining gas is an obvious tell, there is no legitimate reason for him to do so if he is playing standard. With this build however, it is not immediately necessary to keep drones on gas after the initial 100. After the 4 lings are out, the drones can be put back on gas, and the Protoss will be unable to complete a scout. Once the zealot comes out I believe it's too late, and in any case, you're talking about sacrificing a single zealot every game on the off-chance that the player is up to something odd. Third timings vary significantly, and this build is complete after the 7:15 mark, I don't know how much of a time advantage you get from when you "expect" a third and when a 2-zealot scout would see the incoming roaches. Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad? As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind. It isn't that I don't think your zealot can't scout the presence or absence of a third, but rather what time it comes and whether that is significant to the build. I see LiquidHero reaching Idra's 3rd by the 6:30 mark, at which point the roaches should be hatched / hatching and moving across the map. When are you sending this zealot out? When does he reach the opponents base? I've seen marked decrease of FFE in my ZvP matchups, so I can't experiment much against zealot openers.
the zealot comes out at the 6 min mark (right after you gateway in a ffe, then chronoed). He scouts you at 6:30 roughly. Yes your roaches are built. Yes, they are walking towards the protoss. but he will see them for sure. From there, he simply proceeds to add lots of cannons, and delay while they finish
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Seems this build is designed to be nasty, brutish, and short.
;-)
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I'm not sure why you are claiming this makes ffe impossible... With proper scouting like any higher level masters or GM player will do, such as a zealot stalker poke or a few zealot poke will scout this very very easily if you deny the scouting worker anyway. Don't make sensationalist threads please. It is kind of silly to make claims that you cannot support.
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Solid, easy-to-execute all-in.
I wouldn't rally too many speedlings if it gets scouted, and just try to get a 3d up while doing enough damage.
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On September 26 2011 01:57 sick_transit wrote:
Seems this build is designed to be nasty, brutish, and short.
;-)
hahahaha nice.
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Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I tried it and it worked. Actually, I botched it and it still worked. I'm not going to get into the debate about whether this is any good/easily scouted etc. You're all way better than me. However I agree with the OP that there is a metagame trend right now that this exploits: protoss expects a fast third by zerg after a scouted FFE and therefore defaults to greedy play. I don't see a whole ton of pro-level protosses sending three zealots across the map after the FFE. Seems like they're more likely to grab sentries and start banking energy. Or get a stalker out to deny overlord scouting.
There's no such thing as a perfect strategy, or one that will always win, or be immune to all metagame shifts. Just because there are ways to beat a particular strategy doesn't mean that every player who loses to it is "bad." That's why we play the games instead of just revealing our strategies and quitting. This is not a rock/paper/scissors game.
On some maps fast third for zerg is difficult/weak. Right now the risk/reward on this strat looks pretty good to me.
Anyway, thanks.
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United States1222 Posts
On September 25 2011 04:31 Anihc wrote:
Are you kidding me? A 100 mineral scout is not worth it? Are you masters level players really that bad?
As for third timings, if my zealot scout doesn't see a 3rd you're either doing a 2 base strat or getting a pretty late 3rd, so I can add additional cannons without falling economically behind.
This this this and more this. I'm pretty sure the majority of Protoss with half a brain are immediately chronoing out 1-2 zealots, and sending those to scout, as well as hiding 1-2 probes around the map to check for third bases as well as spread harass pylons later (if not detected). If a protoss only makes extra cannons if they see extra roaches, then they're pretty awful. As RSVP has pointed out, there are numerous tells as to whether or not something is up, (gas mined, low drone count, no fast 3rd, etc.), and an intelligent protoss will add the extra cannon(s), and survive an all in, or be a few minerals behind in econ.
Not saying this build is "bad" per se, but you're banking on protoss playing poorly, and that's kind of a weak way to play. Nothing wrong with a new cheese timing, but your really animated defense of this build just puzzles me... its a nice all in, but its nothing unstoppable, or anything.
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EPT
