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On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps.
I agree, yet it is only a small sacrifice and can easily pay off, if your opponent makes one more defense.
Also it is the same for each other race... Hellion expand, 3gate expand, Forge before Nexus... All of that cries "I hope you react wrong", while those expands simply fall behind against a well exectued Nexus/Hatch/CC first.
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On November 22 2011 16:12 A_Bandersnatch wrote:
I think Leenock's mistake on Shakuras Plateau was allowing Naniwa to see his roaches approaching. If he had held the roaches back a few seconds longer out of vision and killed the zealots with his lings, Naniwa (might) have put down one extra cannon expecting ling pressure, but the fact he saw the roaches allowed him to put down several more cannons before they got there, which helped him hold it off until he got his void rays out.
Slightly off topic, but with that series Naniwa consistently got an early nexus and Leenock consistently got early roaches. Why would Naniwa not play safely and expand behind a few gateways? To keep doing the same thing every game and losing to the same didn't really make sense to me. Regardless, it was an interesting build by Leenock and I will more than likely be trying it out at some point. I'm in need of some *real* build orders, I usually wing it after I get ling speed and an expansion.
EDIT: thanks to the OP for writing it out, it was very helpful.
naniwa's build is not really geared towards getting units out really quick
if you look at it, he can really cut a lot of corners to get more units out by starting warpgate faster
alternatively, extremely fast void ray stops this ok, although you may lose the nexus the zerg already cancelled his hatch
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On November 22 2011 15:17 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 14:25 drybones wrote:On November 22 2011 11:36 HK_TPZ wrote:On November 22 2011 10:37 darkscream wrote:On November 22 2011 09:48 HK_TPZ wrote:
Opening 14 14 stinks from far away of all-in. Why else would you sacrifice so much economy for Metabolic Boost the sole purpose of which is to deny scouting, on FFE maps. Not true, speedling expand is the "other macro option" instead of a quick third, you take your nat, get speedlings and a little tech while killing some rocks for a 3rd But yes, 14 14 also could mean an all-in. But its a safe macro build too, up to the point where the hatch is cancelled. The giveaway to all-in is actually the early roach warren imo. I think you underestimate how much economy you sacrifice by going 14 14. Against a Nexus first, how is 14 14 not all-in? its not like you can go hatch first vs protoss though so the only difference is getting 100 gas which sacrifices 75 mins + some lost mining time as a trade for better map control If you want quick Metabolic Boost, 15p15g is infinitely more economical.
Infinately as in how much?
I usually go 12p20h vs protoss tho. Take my gas asap if I scout that no expo from protoss is going on. That takes away the option to all in. Maybe I should try this 15p15g then and see if I can punish greedy protoss.
And I think the reason Leenocks all in on shakuras didnt work was mostly that shakuras is a bad map for that all in. Scouting had some part in it too of course.
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The meta game shifted vastly since IdrA failed this same build vs MC's fast voidrays. Stargate openers were much more safe before hydra drops/nydus all-ins became a religious counter. Not that the Hydra all-ins are as popular as they used to be anymore, but stargate openers in general rely on your opponent making mistakes and its just too easy to fall behind without making huge commitments to damage, and zergs are much better than they were. It's pretty easy to abuse, now.
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this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches.
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On November 22 2011 21:11 Tommylew wrote:
this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches.
Star-gate builds will not generally hold against very early roach-ling allins unless you also scout it and get down extra cannons. I have never lost an FFE bust where my opponent has failed to throw down 2-3 extra cannons.
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On November 22 2011 21:27 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 21:11 Tommylew wrote:
this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches. Star-gate builds will not generally hold against very early roach-ling allins unless you also scout it and get down extra cannons. I have never lost an FFE bust where my opponent has failed to throw down 2-3 extra cannons.
aye but thats the problem the protoss cant just blindly drop another 2-3 cannons incase this rush comes as if they do they will be further behind and there cyber or anything at front can still be sniped so your stuck with any units you already have. Very strong and only properly stoppable if you manage to scout with a second probe before lings comes out which also costs you.
Kinda annoyed thata fter game 1, that Nani didnt start playing a bit safer with another one or two cannons incase anythign fishy happened knowing full well that another game like game 1 was obviously going to happen especially after the 6 pool.
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On November 22 2011 21:57 Tommylew wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 21:27 ThomasHobbes wrote:On November 22 2011 21:11 Tommylew wrote:
this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches. Star-gate builds will not generally hold against very early roach-ling allins unless you also scout it and get down extra cannons. I have never lost an FFE bust where my opponent has failed to throw down 2-3 extra cannons. aye but thats the problem the protoss cant just blindly drop another 2-3 cannons incase this rush comes as if they do they will be further behind and there cyber or anything at front can still be sniped so your stuck with any units you already have. Very strong and only properly stoppable if you manage to scout with a second probe before lings comes out which also costs you. Kinda annoyed thata fter game 1, that Nani didnt start playing a bit safer with another one or two cannons incase anythign fishy happened knowing full well that another game like game 1 was obviously going to happen especially after the 6 pool.
I was watching an old VOD from Axslav's stream. I talks about how he doesn't get the scouting zealot when he goes startgate and just gets a sentry and an extra cannon. The sentry he wants anyways and will help vs baneling busts and the stargate kills anything with roaches in the composition because you can charge on a roach and then melt down the lings while you enforce your wall-in. I think people underestimate how bad it is to have a roach with your ling bust if they went stargate.
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This build been here since gsl 1 I dont see how its Leenock's build.
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Thanks for posting the BO from what you could gather from the VODs, it seems pretty close imo...additionally this will help a bunch with ZvP on ladder which has become unwinnable for me (not balance statement, personal flaw statement).
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This is very much like fake expand 4gate, just mind game really. I've also seen Nestea expanding but made no queens and uses the additional larvae from the expand to push with roach/sling, less of an all-in but your production will suffer if you can't do damage.
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On November 22 2011 23:02 MoreFaSho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 21:57 Tommylew wrote:On November 22 2011 21:27 ThomasHobbes wrote:On November 22 2011 21:11 Tommylew wrote:
this build abuses the fact that protoss have no way of scouting out except with probes which is why the lings come out to huntthe probes or then kill or at least hold back a zealot from taking the tower to see any roaches coming. Problem it is strong enough to contain even if he had kept the expo keeping the protoss on one base until he gets a stargate or robo and starggate is easy to defend as you just need a spor or two with a queen.
Far too strong and pretty much forces the protoss to not expand only to be then mile sbehind the zerg player, hopefully someone will work out a good fast expand which incorporates a quick stargate to counter the roaches. Star-gate builds will not generally hold against very early roach-ling allins unless you also scout it and get down extra cannons. I have never lost an FFE bust where my opponent has failed to throw down 2-3 extra cannons. aye but thats the problem the protoss cant just blindly drop another 2-3 cannons incase this rush comes as if they do they will be further behind and there cyber or anything at front can still be sniped so your stuck with any units you already have. Very strong and only properly stoppable if you manage to scout with a second probe before lings comes out which also costs you. Kinda annoyed thata fter game 1, that Nani didnt start playing a bit safer with another one or two cannons incase anythign fishy happened knowing full well that another game like game 1 was obviously going to happen especially after the 6 pool. I was watching an old VOD from Axslav's stream. I talks about how he doesn't get the scouting zealot when he goes startgate and just gets a sentry and an extra cannon. The sentry he wants anyways and will help vs baneling busts and the stargate kills anything with roaches in the composition because you can charge on a roach and then melt down the lings while you enforce your wall-in. I think people underestimate how bad it is to have a roach with your ling bust if they went stargate.
I hate when someone spells spore wrong and then I get my name quoted 5 times v_v
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In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
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On November 24 2011 03:58 Giantt wrote:
In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
so what exactly has changed? 2base Infestor allin is still viable, the difference is that now opponents have figured out that it is only an allin. True that the NP nerf changed a lot in terms of lowleague viability, in high level of play it didn't make too much difference. (Colossi and HT both were considered reasonable counters to Infestors before the nerf)
Furthermore... Zergs standard opening vs FFE is 3base... I don't see how this isn't a "reasonable" response.
It's just sad that people think that ANY zerg cheese is more rewarding than solid macro play, because it really isn't... The results of this cheese and 6pool cheeses and other allins of 1-2bases very early are extremly bad in tournament games. Once again it is true that this stuff is rather strong in lowlevel gaming, because being aggressive is just a thousand times easier than defending (the aggressor only falls behind if he makes mistakes, the defender flat out loses). It just means that if people have trouble against cheese, they have to improve. Else it wouldn't be cheese but standard gameplay and everyone with a tiny little bit of brain and everyone who earns his money by playing, would do it (if it was really sooo successful)
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On November 24 2011 03:58 Giantt wrote:
In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
That's the way metagame evolves. Nani cut corners too much, leenock punished it. The result of this series is, that nani needs to play somewhat safer (e.g. get some more cannons) or sacrifice another probe for scouting. Again this will reduce the strength of FFE slightly, so Zerg will favor going macro against this "nerfed" FFE again.
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On November 24 2011 05:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:58 Giantt wrote:
In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
That's the way metagame evolves. Nani cut corners too much, leenock punished it. The result of this series is, that nani needs to play somewhat safer (e.g. get some more cannons) or sacrifice another probe for scouting. Again this will reduce the strength of FFE slightly, so Zerg will favor going macro against this "nerfed" FFE again.
Naniwa won 1 of those 2games...
Also I don't like the way you (and many others) use the term "punish"... A blind allin does not "punish" anything. It wins most of the time if an opponent doesn't scout or blindcounter it, but that has nothing to do with "punishment", it is a simple "I crossed my fingers really hard"-strategy.
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I did not mean the 2 base infestor build as an all-in but rather a stable mid game allowing you to play on even or worse macro but supperior tech, get 3rd,4th, macro-up, tech and build a stable army on T2. NP nerf (and fungal dps) changed a lot at high level of play to the point where the alternatives are far better - that is why almost any game these days no matter the matchup revolves around mutas(mostly) or roach hydra...same as it was like 8+ months before.
Seeing these games I think the metagame went in a circle to the beta stages - when the response to signs of macro play was cheese.
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With the hatch cancel roach rush and nexus cancel 5 gate, all we need is a cc cancel and the trinity will be complete.
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On November 24 2011 21:06 Giantt wrote:
I did not mean the 2 base infestor build as an all-in but rather a stable mid game allowing you to play on even or worse macro but supperior tech, get 3rd,4th, macro-up, tech and build a stable army on T2. NP nerf (and fungal dps) changed a lot at high level of play to the point where the alternatives are far better - that is why almost any game these days no matter the matchup revolves around mutas(mostly) or roach hydra...same as it was like 8+ months before.
Seeing these games I think the metagame went in a circle to the beta stages - when the response to signs of macro play was cheese.
It never was... 2base infestor has always been played as something like the "6infestor rush" with tons of IT + zerglings.
rarely it was played like you described it on high level... Furthermore, the moment 3hatch openings got popular everyone abbandoned the infestors before third. It's just like speedling expanding... you don't do it when you have the possibility to go hatch first without drawbacks (and you want to play macro)... It's really not like those infestor builds are so much worse these days, it's rather that other builds are simply better AND the fast infestor builds are really figuered out.
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On November 24 2011 05:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 05:18 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On November 24 2011 03:58 Giantt wrote:
In general it is sad to see that somewhat cheesy all-ins are more rewarding than macro play. What I mean by that is - it sucks the only viable response to a nexus& forge build from a zerg is to go 6-8roaches(+lings). I prefered when it was reasonable to go fast lair and (a lot of) infestors on 4 extractors and be fine vs mass gates and other 2 base timings.
That's the way metagame evolves. Nani cut corners too much, leenock punished it. The result of this series is, that nani needs to play somewhat safer (e.g. get some more cannons) or sacrifice another probe for scouting. Again this will reduce the strength of FFE slightly, so Zerg will favor going macro against this "nerfed" FFE again. Naniwa won 1 of those 2games... Also I don't like the way you (and many others) use the term "punish"... A blind allin does not "punish" anything. It wins most of the time if an opponent doesn't scout or blindcounter it, but that has nothing to do with "punishment", it is a simple "I crossed my fingers really hard"-strategy.
Agree when seeing this on ladder, but in the context of this tournament and the BoX series, this is not a blind all-in, since there was a high probability that nani will play his greedy ffe variant.
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EPT
