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On November 22 2011 01:10 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:50 Cyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:48 Plexa wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
Yup! If you don't know, be safe. Getting 4 cannons if he's denying your scout is always a good idea to be safe - and avoid losing outright to roach allins or baneling allins. It might slow things down a bit but I don't think the extra minerals will spent will delay things too much in the grand scheme of things (I haven't actually tested how long it delays it exactly) and plus, Protoss always want gas anyway  Every 150 minerals delays a 5/6/7gate by like ~7 seconds, an extra 20 seconds to prep is gg for protoss using those when zerg has a drone advantage and 3hatch larvae injects A gateway timing attack is not the only build a protoss has after a FFE...
Correct me if my observations are incorrect, but Stargate play followed up with a warp prism seems to be the current strongest follow up.
I see a lot of FFE - Gate - Stargate - Robo + 3 Gate while Vrays/Phoenix harrass and control the map. When the Warp Prism spawns, suddenly the Protoss ground army being made at home isn't being made at home, it's being made in the Zerg main, which is conveniently blocked by a Forcefield on the ramp.
While I think that particular tactic can be figured out, the theme of building that warp prism behind Stargate pressure to make the early Toss ground army more mobile seems to be really strong.
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On November 22 2011 01:10 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:50 Cyro wrote:On November 22 2011 00:48 Plexa wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
Yup! If you don't know, be safe. Getting 4 cannons if he's denying your scout is always a good idea to be safe - and avoid losing outright to roach allins or baneling allins. It might slow things down a bit but I don't think the extra minerals will spent will delay things too much in the grand scheme of things (I haven't actually tested how long it delays it exactly) and plus, Protoss always want gas anyway Every 150 minerals delays a 5/6/7gate by like ~7 seconds, an extra 20 seconds to prep is gg for protoss using those when zerg has a drone advantage and 3hatch larvae injects A gateway timing attack is not the only build a protoss has after a FFE...
psssst... don't tell them, I'm not ready to give up on blindcountering those builds yet 
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On November 21 2011 21:12 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:03 Sbrubbles wrote:
Can I bring up another point?
How smart/dumb was it of Naniwa to send those zealots out knowing that the Zerg had speed? I mean, in the first game he sacced them but scouted the roaches. Still, Leenock could have avoided that (a bit of sloppiness from Leenock's part). In the third game he lost 2 zealots for free, which would have been crucial if he had 3 cannons.
My opinion is that it is just too much risk to too little reward sending those zealots to die. If the Zerg spots them coming out of the P's base, all he has to do is send 4 slings after them, which he might already have out (and probably does). It felt like Naniwa was not taking into consideration Leenock went speed first at all. Naniwa sends 2 zealots out. Leenock does not have enough larvae to deny those zealots from scouting AND perform the roach rush. Naniwa's mistake was not sending those 2 zealots together. He instead sent them one at a time, allowing ling micro to deny the zealots from scouting the roaches.
Yep this was the crucial mistake. against this all in, scouting really is key for both sides
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Its better you guys see haypro's gameplay, was amazing, this allin is old as my granny...
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should be stoppable if u manage to scout and it dosent matter if u go nexus first or forge... all it matters is if u have defense ready by the time
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On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg...
You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos.
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On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed?
These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming (first zealot dies, second zealot sees roaches, shiiiiiit), it's too late to defend.
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This build has been around for months and months. I think I first saw it in TSL, or Morrow vs MC Dreamhack. FFE into stargate beats it. 2 cannons 1 sentry beats it.
Nexus first or forge first makes absolutely no difference, because the time your forge has been alive for doesn't affect how strong your cannons are. FFE is also not overly greedy at all. It simply relies on scouting information and safe followups. If you go straight to robo or TC without building more gates/stargate, then you should be punished. Only time FFE is lololol is on maps like Xelnaga.
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On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend.
While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting.
As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On November 22 2011 03:22 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend. While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting. As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings.
It follows, then, that Zerg players can be sneaky and make 2-4 extra lings to force a couple more cannons
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On November 22 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:
This build has been around for months and months. I think I first saw it in TSL, or Morrow vs MC Dreamhack. FFE into stargate beats it. 2 cannons 1 sentry beats it.
Nexus first or forge first makes absolutely no difference, because the time your forge has been alive for doesn't affect how strong your cannons are. FFE is also not overly greedy at all. It simply relies on scouting information and safe followups. If you go straight to robo or TC without building more gates/stargate, then you should be punished. Only time FFE is lololol is on maps like Xelnaga.
There are a multitude of roach-ling attacks which fare perfectly well against 2 cannons and a sentry (and hit around a similar time), I don't think calling for that defense is advised.
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On November 22 2011 03:27 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:22 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend. While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting. As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings. It follows, then, that Zerg players can be sneaky and make 2-4 extra lings to force a couple more cannons
True, but my scouting and reaction suggestions are not standard. Against other players making those extra lings might not cause a reaction from the protoss, and then it's a waste for the zerg.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On November 22 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:
This build has been around for months and months. I think I first saw it in TSL, or Morrow vs MC Dreamhack. FFE into stargate beats it. 2 cannons 1 sentry beats it.
Nexus first or forge first makes absolutely no difference, because the time your forge has been alive for doesn't affect how strong your cannons are. FFE is also not overly greedy at all. It simply relies on scouting information and safe followups. If you go straight to robo or TC without building more gates/stargate, then you should be punished. Only time FFE is lololol is on maps like Xelnaga.
MC insta-gg'd idra with it on Shakuras, he got a super early void ray (part of his standard play) and it was out before roaches did any real damage, i think it was like 17gate, instant cyber when finished and then instant stargate when that was done, but still, he didnt scout shit and idra flat out lost the game, didnt even get past the wall i think
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On November 22 2011 03:49 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:27 marvellosity wrote:On November 22 2011 03:22 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend. While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting. As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings. It follows, then, that Zerg players can be sneaky and make 2-4 extra lings to force a couple more cannons True, but my scouting and reaction suggestions are not standard. Against other players making those extra lings might not cause a reaction from the protoss, and then it's a waste for the zerg.
In my experience you're correct, even when scouting speedlings the average protoss does not make more cannons. That being said, how many cannons do you add / determine you need? I generally find that I can break FFE's with up to 3-4 cannons.
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On November 22 2011 03:22 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming, but it's too late to defend. While your initial scouting probe is being chased back to your base by the zerg's initial lings, send a 2nd probe out. Some people say to just hide your initial scouting probe before lings pop out, but most decent zergs will scavenge the map for your hidden probe if they just see it disappear like that. If the zerg sees that he's chasing your scouting probe back to your base your 2nd scouting probe has a lot more potential to do more scouting. With this second scouting probe you will be able to scout 1 base play or a hatch cancel. If I confirm that he has a completed hatchery at his natural then I try to go into the main and check for things like gas, but usually this scout will be denied by queen(s). If the zerg opened with speedlings, I will suicide that probe into the main because it's going to die to speedlings soon anyway. If the zerg did not open speedlings, I will try to poke into the main but if queens are denying me from going too far I'll just run it away and save it. There's much less danger if the zerg didn't open speedlings and I can wait for the zealot scout to continue scouting. As soon as your gateway finishes you should begin chronoing out a zealot. Against speedlings it is up to you whether you want to wait for 2 chrono'ed zealots or just go with zeal + probe. If the zerg sends lings to watchtowers and leaves only 1-2 lings right outside your base, I would go with just zeal + probe. You do not need blind extra cannons against speedlings. You only need extra cannons if your zeal scout is denied by speedlings, or the zerg makes more than 4 lings.
Thanks. I definitely use those same techniques for probe scouting, and I'm better about confirming that the hatch wasn't canceled than, for example, Naniwa was in these games, but there's still a window after speed finishes where probes can't tell you whether Z droned or got roaches. I suppose I'll check the timing on the 2nd zealot and see if I can get it early enough to reactively cannon.
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Didnt read the whole thread, but SERIOUSLY ?! leenock played the most amazing tournament this weekend, absolutely dominating with solid play and the ONE thing u pick out to discuss, point out is an allin thats been there since release actually, NOTHING special AT ALL, morrow did this the whole time zvp on shakuras after he switched. how dumb is it to watch that amazing player at mlg and the one thing that impresses u is the one that any plat zerg could pull off. GOD, get some brain in here ....
User was warned for this post
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On November 22 2011 03:08 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:16 Big J wrote:On November 21 2011 23:58 Alzadar wrote:On November 21 2011 23:53 sanctuz wrote:
I hope this shifts the metagame away from protoss FFE'ing/nexus first blindly vs zerg. I'm not sure that Protoss has any other way to enter the midgame without a significant disadvantage. I'm sure many pros will be looking for a way after the MLG finals, but we'll see. What might have to happen is a change to mapmaking practices so that you can always wall off your natural with three 3x3 buildings (like Shakuras or Tal'Darim Altar). That's how it is in Brood War, because PvZ is virtually unplayable otherwise. Protoss progamers are looking for this kind of stuff since quite some time now... The problem being not the allins, though it is part of the problem - trying to survive with 1canon, while still fighting an uphill eco battle against 3hatch openings. Naniwa and Huk both tried some 1gate expands in the GSL lately, but with rather mediocre success (1missed FF and you're done). I think Tyler doesn't FFE either and everywhere in this forum you will find Protoss players who say that they don't think that FFE is a good build to begin with, because you are to reliant on doing damage with your follow up. I'd say taking a third is too hard currently for protoss players. 10min 3rds being considered "rather fast" against 5min 3rds of zerg... You can't really compare the number of expansions between races like that. You don't ever really need an early 3rd as protoss as you won't have enough probes to even gain a benefit from it before 10 mins or so depending on how you distributed your chronos.
with constant probe production you need the third even earlier than that. 2bases are optimally harvested from with 44probes (12gas, 32minerals) after that you want a third (and you reach that 44probe count way before 10mins).
But I guess as long as Protoss players feel fine with taking that late expansions and rather relying on doing damage, I guess I have nothing to fear as a rather defensive zerg player.
Edit: Also I want to note, that I didn't even compare the expansions "just like that". I really didn't write that Protoss should throw down an expo at 5mins if zerg throws down one at 5mins (which is the standard 3rd timing in PvZ for 3hatch vs FFE openings)
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On November 22 2011 03:10 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
This might be obvious to everyone else, (I stuck to 1-gate expand for a long time and am now trying to work out the finer points of FFE) but what are the considerations for scouting? Is my best bet to send out my first zealot as soon as I get it unless Z went 14/14 or built 6 lings? If Z did go 14/14, should I send out a zealot+probe or wait for 2 zealots and send them together? Should I blindly get a 2nd cannon against 14/14 and then add additional cannons if my scouts are killed? These are things I'm sure I'd work out with more experience, but I know you've been rocking FFE pretty much since beta, and any scouting tips you could offer would be much appreciated. I find that too often, by the time I know roaches are coming (first zealot dies, second zealot sees roaches, shiiiiiit), it's too late to defend.
I actually think there might be a case for a blind second cannon against 14/14. The other possibility (which is a little more expensive) is to pylon the natural against 14/14 and then use that time to sneak a second probe and try to use that time to sneak in a second probe. I think going 2 gateways a-la kiwi after a 14/14 might be strong as well. Even fi the roaches kite the zealots (very hard to do off creep), it should buy enough time. Actually, this reminds me of the old fruit-dealer build from season 2 2010 with roaches vs hellions when hellions could kite them forever. It still bought enough time to get up a real defense.
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this build is only viable to face against a protoss who isn't scouting well doing a forge ffe. in my opinion if Naniwa was playing well he would have realized that a forge ffe wasn't in the cards, so i think this build is very situational and rarely viable
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Naniwa relied too much on zealot scouting. You need to zealot scout + probe scout, especially if zerg has gas taken. You need to micro your zealots too, something Naniwa consistenly failed to do.
Its "not a nice bo" invented by Leenock. Its just a cheesy build which can work, which ahs been used for a while. Starswar idra vs idk on taldarim e.g. More then 6 months old.
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EPT
