EPTIn case of a fast expand it may be easier.
The MilkyWay Drone Drill - Page 10
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
In case of a fast expand it may be easier. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:13 ReketSomething wrote: The main thing isnt about 3 pylons + 2 cancelled cannons vs. 15 drone mining. Its about having 2 hatcheries (2 base) against a protoss player that doesn't have a gateway. You can drone like a mad man and come out ahead EASY despite the mineral loss. edit: perhaps its like paying 400 minerals so that protoss has nothing to apply pressure while you have a hatchery and 2 bases. Took 10 pages for someone to finally say this. After the pylon wall is down, what does toss have? Nothing. That means zerg can just drone up without even scouting for a good 4 minutes, on two bases, and toss has absolutely nothing to follow up with. Even if the zerg player loses in mining time, they will eventually come out ahead as toss has no means to keep the zerg player honest. | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
On September 02 2011 23:28 Barrin wrote: Uhh, what kind of P FE's against a 7-10 pool Z? (hint: any decent P scouts the Z before actually putting the nexus down) sure, but he already put his pylon down there (shakuras), and now he is going to nexus if the zerg goes fast expand or forge and save money to complete the wall if the zerg went 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 pool, right? As zerg you usually find yourself hitting at some gateway or pylon, then some cannon completes and its over (and you just lost the game). Maybe you can send the 6, 7 or 8 drones to drill the wall before the lings get there. I would expect the protoss to not have many probes to repel 6+ another 2 or 4 a little later and 6 or 8 drones, as he must cut probes to finish the wall. I'd like to try that, but my friend doesn't know how to forge expand. | ||
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haffy
United Kingdom430 Posts
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On September 02 2011 23:51 junemermaid wrote: Took 10 pages for someone to finally say this. After the pylon wall is down, what does toss have? Nothing. That means zerg can just drone up without even scouting for a good 4 minutes, on two bases, and toss has absolutely nothing to follow up with. Even if the zerg player loses in mining time, they will eventually come out ahead as toss has no means to keep the zerg player honest. Its not that it took 10 pages. Its just generally common knowledge to know what you posted. Most already know what you posted. If people are trying to argue that zerg isn't ahead, then they aren't thinking of 2 mins after you defend, or they aren't zerg. If you go for a 3 pylon block and a cannon, and he breaks it and you dont get a cancel on anything. He is free to take 3 bases with no pressure. This trick is good, it works. Zerg players need to start practicing it and learning the right amount of drones to pull, I feel like 8 drones pulled as soon as the last pylon finishes is more than enough to break it. The only thing zerg need to be afraid of, is if the protoss isn't macroing while doing this. Because if that happens they can use a gw to block the pylon thats dieing. And if theres one thing a zerg doesn't want, its a 2 pylon/gw wall blocking them into their main with that gw making zealots. If you have a scout in the protoss base though, you will know if he is throwing down the nexus or the gw at home or if he is still making probes/etc. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
Im serious. Unless he spends over 600 minerals on pylons/canons near the hatch you can go roach back home, and when the hatch pops make a queen and roaches from the the proxy hatch. It works hella good, because we have spent soo much money containing you, and then more than likely we expod. 3 roaches can pretty much devastate everything. Cheese the cheeser. Its why when i cannon i dont do ramp wallins. You insta lose to a good proxy hatch. | ||
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HTODethklok
United States221 Posts
Personally id much rather loose the mining time than be confined to 1 base for too long as zerg. Once you confined as zerg your severely limited in options which makes it easy for toss to prepare for anything you can throw at them. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:09 ohampatu wrote: Another note, for zerg users who can't perform this trick. If a protoss 3 pylons and cannons you into your main. Use your scouting drone to make a hatch in his base. Im serious. Unless he spends over 600 minerals on pylons/canons near the hatch you can go roach back home, and when the hatch pops make a queen and roaches from the the proxy hatch. It works hella good, because we have spent soo much money containing you, and then more than likely we expod. 3 roaches can pretty much devastate everything. Cheese the cheeser. Its why when i cannon i dont do ramp wallins. You insta lose to a good proxy hatch. or he spots it, pulls a few probes to force the cancel and you lose the game. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:12 HTODethklok wrote: In these videos it takes almost 30 seconds for 15 workers to break through the first pylon starting from the time the workers were pulled off of the mineral line. 1 worker gathers 40-50 minerals per minute so worst case scenario you going to loose out on 375 minerals to break down the first pylon assuming you can execute the drill properly. Personally id much rather loose the mining time than be confined to 1 base for too long as zerg. Once you confined as zerg your severely limited in options which makes it easy for toss to prepare for anything you can throw at them. Also, we have yet to see someone as fluid as some of the high micro pros perform this. I think that once practiced a zerg could be able to do this with half the probes (like 8-10). As i said, even if it takes 15 or 30 seconds, the only thing you have to worry about is a gw behind the dieing pylon. If that goes up. Your kinda screwed. | ||
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archflames
Mexico204 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:12 HTODethklok wrote: In these videos it takes almost 30 seconds for 15 workers to break through the first pylon starting from the time the workers were pulled off of the mineral line. 1 worker gathers 40-50 minerals per minute so worst case scenario you going to loose out on 375 minerals to break down the first pylon assuming you can execute the drill properly. Personally id much rather loose the mining time than be confined to 1 base for too long as zerg. Once you confined as zerg your severely limited in options which makes it easy for toss to prepare for anything you can throw at them. it takes about 17 seconds to take 1 pylon if you do the trick right, the guy in the video executed it horribly | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:16 tuestresfat wrote: or he spots it, pulls a few probes to force the cancel and you lose the game. A full sorround with 20 probes (you actually wont even have 20 probes, if he scouts the hatch instantly when it drops and pulls all he'll only have about 17. And you can cancel the hatch last minute and make him spend over 1k to defend. Your evening it up. You dont insta lose. Your also forgetting how long it takes to kill a hatch. I have succesfully scouted the proxy hatch, and had 2 cannons down at the proxy hatch. I still had to pull about 10 probes and lost them all to the 5 roaches that finished. Unless you get outplayed. Proxy hatching a FE Toss who wasted 600 minerals containing you will not cause you to lose. Your gonna even it up or win. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:17 archflames wrote: it takes about 17 seconds to take 1 pylon if you do the trick right, the guy in the video executed it horribly Nice, 17 sounds about where i figured itd take with good micro. I'd like to see somebody go run through tests like this. Play a protoss, Let him put 3 pylons up, as soon as the third pylon finishes grab your probes and try and do the trick and break through before the cannon finishes. Id like to see this with 6/7/8/9/10 drones to see what the minium is that allows you to break through the pylon quickly. Even if you pull 15 drones your gonna be ahead in about a minute. But i think zergs could capitalize off this quite a bit more. (again, this is assuming the toss doesn't block the area behind the dieing pylon with a gw). | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:25 Barrin wrote: Hmm I see. Incoming theorycrafting. Shouldn't you pretty much always send drones first if your doing 6-10pool? I mean you're going to do it anyway (assuming you're actually doing an offensive drone drill)... it's completely all-in, so you should send your drones as soon as you can afford 6 or 8 zerglings. If you're 6-pooling, your drones should be over there right before the forge finishes. If you're 10-pooling, your drones should be over there a little less than halfway through the cannon. Either way the protoss has two options: wall off the top of his ramp or send most of his probes to defend the cannon until it finishes. If he walls off his ramp and puts a cannon behind it, you should usually be able to break it and kill the cannon in time (ignoring the forge on low ground). If he sends his probes to defend the cannon, you could just move your drones to his nexus to harass it while your zerglings are coming. (He would have to keep some of his probes there (up to half) to block the ramp from zerglings passing by the cannon). Your zerglings would be stopped but you could probably give him a run for his money with your drones vs his probes... until the cannon finishes and he doesn't need the probes at ramp anymore. Interestingly enough, in my brain's flawed simulation of the game, sending probes to the ramp makes more sense in most of these cases (something I did not expect at all). In conclusion, you made plenty of sense, my bad :D Lately ive been doing what alot of the KR pros have been doing. Things like 12 forge 17 nexus instead of the 14 forge/15 nexus or other 14 forge builds. Both can lose pretty quick to a 6 pool. I find that if i actually somehow scout the allin and all i have is my 12 forge or 14 forge, then i will put a cannon near bottom of my ramp and right click the cannon with all my probes and quehold the 1x1 area left at the bottom of my ramp. Although normally, if you choose to FFE on some of these maps, its a BO Loss against 6/7 pool unless you get lucky with scouting first. | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:09 ohampatu wrote: Another note, for zerg users who can't perform this trick. If a protoss 3 pylons and cannons you into your main. Use your scouting drone to make a hatch in his base. Im serious. Unless he spends over 600 minerals on pylons/canons near the hatch you can go roach back home, and when the hatch pops make a queen and roaches from the the proxy hatch. It works hella good, because we have spent soo much money containing you, and then more than likely we expod. 3 roaches can pretty much devastate everything. Cheese the cheeser. Its why when i cannon i dont do ramp wallins. You insta lose to a good proxy hatch. Awful, awful advise. As a toss player, I have never, I repeat, never lost to an in base hatch before. All you do is place a pylon and a cannon when the hatch is half way done. Problem solved. | ||
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:18 ohampatu wrote: A full sorround with 20 probes (you actually wont even have 20 probes, if he scouts the hatch instantly when it drops and pulls all he'll only have about 17. And you can cancel the hatch last minute and make him spend over 1k to defend. Your evening it up. You dont insta lose. Your also forgetting how long it takes to kill a hatch. I have succesfully scouted the proxy hatch, and had 2 cannons down at the proxy hatch. I still had to pull about 10 probes and lost them all to the 5 roaches that finished. Unless you get outplayed. Proxy hatching a FE Toss who wasted 600 minerals containing you will not cause you to lose. Your gonna even it up or win. How much larvae comes out of a newly built hatch? Three instantly? | ||
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Girondelle
France969 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:41 Xahhk wrote: How much larvae comes out of a newly built hatch? Three instantly? Only one comes immediately after the hatch is done. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:37 SoKHo wrote: Awful, awful advise. As a toss player, I have never, I repeat, never lost to an in base hatch before. All you do is place a pylon and a cannon when the hatch is half way done. Problem solved. I dont think you read me exactly. If a protoss doesn't contain, then proxy hatch is retarded. I'll give an example of some games ive played against high masters. Protoss BO 12 forge 3 pylons, 1 cannon Goes back to bace, drops the gw, nexus, 1 cannon, and then a core to finish the ramp wall. At this point in the game, the zerg drone will be alive, unless zerg is bad. The zerg can hatch even if its scouted at this point. 1 pylon by the hatch (there wont be one) and then 2 cannons by the hatch will not kill that hatch before a queen and 3 larva pop. I say 2 cannons, because i believe a roach takes 3 hits to die. 1 cannon means the zerg can rally away from the cannon and let his hatch die. 2 cannons can sometimes kill the roaches as they pop. I have killed the hatch many times. Its when 2 roaches make it out alive and kill 20 probes that your fucked. As long as zerg choose to do it after the naturals ramp is completed, toss cannot do anything apart from build pylons/cannons. You can make him build all of them and just cancel if the roaches wont ever make it out. Ive played a few zerg on ladder who have even said they always proxy hatch, even if just to wait untill the end to cancel and even the game up against toss. Edit In: As i said, but others have seen. You dont need to let the hatch finish. Just put the hatch down after natural is walled off, and make him waste resources. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On September 03 2011 00:41 Xahhk wrote: How much larvae comes out of a newly built hatch? Three instantly? 1 at time. Do you know how long it takes 1 cannon to kill a hatch? Enough for a queen to pop, inject larve, and enough for 2 larva to spawn and morph into roaches. Edit: Or a better answer: 1 at a time. the first larva is instant, the 2nd is 7 seconds later i believe. Those 2 will always become roaches no matter if 2 or 3 cannons are down unless you had your pylon built by the proxy hatch before the hatch went down. Instead of inject alot of people just do creep tumor as well. | ||
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