I posted this in the other thread, but I thought I'd do so again here. This more clearly illustrates why the shift method can do more damage overall. Again, forgive my excitement; at the time just demonstrating for a couple clan/teammates in vent.
I actually don't think this is good evidence of shift clicking being better at all, doing the same thing without shift clicking much faster you have 130 probes (hard to read with low quality vid but I think that is correct) with that many using regular clicking for both attacking and mining will 1 shot the pylon instantly as opposed to over 1-2 seconds.
I also noticed there seems to be a delay where you are stacking up I'm assuming this is just because you waited a second or two to press shift for the sake of the video but if not this would also make it much slower.
having said all of this it might be quicker to shift click with fewer workers but its also more difficult and easier to mess up unless there is a substantial increase in speed (which I doubt given that you are always limited by the worker attack speed) I don't think shift clicking is ever going to be a good idea.
I know its been said earlier in the thread but this doesn't work on shattered, I havent had time to test it on other maps. If it works on Shakeuras and Tal Darim I'll be happy. Hell even being able to hatch first on shakeuras is awesome.
On September 01 2011 15:36 Regogreiki wrote: Umm just keep a drone at your ramp? but thats easier said then done right.
Pulling all your drones seems kind of redic if you ask me, sure u may break out even investment wise, but no one seems to take into account that the toss is still mining, and you are not.
So lets say in a perfect world, toss drops 450 mins, and u lost 450 mins in mining time, cool we are even, nope incorrect toss has been mining for the last minute and a half and has mined another 400, while u have mined prob lets say 50 or prob more, because you made another drone, when u pulled, i meen i hope u would lol. So the zerg base is staying at the 5 min mark, while the toss base is blossoming into a collosi making butterfly.
rofl imagine screwing up the trick, and not kill the pylon in time, might as well facepalm and gg out. but someone else has prob already made my point and made me look like a douche
This is terrible logic. Toss loses 450 minerals early on, Zerg loses 450 minerals later on. In the end, the same amount of minerals are lost. If anything, in this situation, Protoss is more screwed because early income is more important than later income.
However, I'm still not convinced that the mineral loss from this technique will allow the game to proceed with standard advantages, because you either have to delay your queen if you went pool first since you lose minerals during the time you are supposed to start making it, or you cut a lot of drones if you hatch first, since you should have also dropped your pool and have to either cut drones to have enough money for the queen or you delay the queen even more.
For Protoss, it's relatively easy to cut the gateway/cyber so you cut tech instead of econ, so there's no damage there in the long run.
In other words, I feel like even if mineral advantages are the same for both sides, the queen must get delayed in some fashion, resulting in a Zerg disadvantage.
The problem with your thinking is that you arent taking account that to do this they have to delay their gateway a ton, which means zerg gets to make a bunch of extra drones that would normally have to be lings to scout with or defend themselfs from potential early stalkers and such, also we still get the extra hatch worth of larva, and besides its okay to delay the queens a little bit since you dont need the larva from the inject right away every time, you wouldnt have the minerals to spend them anyways, zerg is definitely far ahead after this.
I tested it on the shattered temple and my probes walked up to the corner of my base when I used my natural mineral line. So I used the base up in the corner and the probes went to the right place. However then I had to move my screen back and forth to click on the pylon. Of course this was my own pylons not enemy pylons.
I didn't have a friend to test with so I'm wondering if anyone has tried mineral walk, attack move to see if it was any less effective then clicking on the pylon you want to kill.
btw: It took 16 probes 20 seconds to kill the pylon manually, 25 seconds with shift que for me.
Edit: Did some testing with a friend on shattered temple. Probes walk to the wrong spot unless you use the second natural or gold. This makes it much more difficult since you have to move your screen back and forth. I tried attack move but it was much less effective. You still have to click on the pylon for maximum effect.
cannon behind natural minerals is not as bad as at your choke.
If he cannons behind your natural's minerals, then his own natural is exposed. If he cannons your choke, then those cannons and pylons are both defending and attacking. You can't do a "nestea" spine crawler rush, or quick roach push, or ling runby, or whatever.
It also prevents you from taking and expo somewhere else by just scouting a little. If you put a hatch on your "third", he can just send the first zealot or even make a pylon and a couple cannons and you can do nothing about it.
If he starts putting pylons behind my nat in such a way i know i'm not going to be able to defend, i cancel at the last time and i build a hatch at his own natural with my drone scout (i scout at 10 always). He spends at least 1 pylon and 2 cannons at preveting my natural, and i spend 1 drone and 300 minerals to prevent his. plus after the hatch finishes it will spread creep and delay for quite some time. And if he doesnt have a zealot in time (and maybe even then), you can make a queen and put down a tumor, or inject and make 5 roaches right there. You can take there a couple drones from your main to make a couple spines.
Then killing the cannons at your natural with roaches is easyer than at the choke as you will be able to micro hurt roaches out before they die. At the choke you usually can't.
If i can't put the hatch at his natural, i sometimes put it inside their base. Even if they see it right away, they will keep spending. Either attacking with a bunch of probes, or making cannons around it, or rushing gateways. It hurts him. You can cancel, build again somewhere while droning, etc.
So depends on map, and a lot of things. But in short, i think cannons cannons behind your nat (if you cancel in time) is not as bad as cannons in your choke, so this drone drill find is huge
I had this done to me in a ladder after I thought he was an idiot for going hatch first so blatantly... except he did it MUCH more efficiently than that video. I think it took about 4 sets of attacks to kill the pylon.
dumbest "trick" ever, having like 15 drones waste mining time just for such a time-consuming micro, the mineral lost in that 30 sec was probaly over 300, while the opponent can easily just build 2 new pylons or something behind it.
mild seven you do realize it costs minerals to build the pylons and cannons right? if he walls off and builds 2 more pylons behind it thats 500 minerals wasted, thus the zerg actually got off better.
On September 02 2011 01:00 Tokyla wrote: mild seven you do realize it costs minerals to build the pylons and cannons right? if he walls off and builds 2 more pylons behind it thats 500 minerals wasted, thus the zerg actually got off better.
with 15 drones, it's more than 300 minerals, it was a modest guess, and you are obviously blind, you don't even need the canons to slow this newb-move down, just rebuilding pylons, which you only 2-3 of will waste the zerg enough mining time to more than make up for it especially when this "trick" uses that many drones
I'll just leave this here - it works with SCV repair too.
This can be useful for Terran bottom of the ramp wall of. In regular scenario zerglins have a much bigger surface area than SCVs and thus the depot can get slowly destroyed. With this you can bypass the repairing SCV limit.
On September 02 2011 01:00 Tokyla wrote: mild seven you do realize it costs minerals to build the pylons and cannons right? if he walls off and builds 2 more pylons behind it thats 500 minerals wasted, thus the zerg actually got off better.
with 15 drones, it's more than 300 minerals, it was a modest guess, and you are obviously blind, you don't even need the canons to slow this newb-move down, just rebuilding pylons, which you only 2-3 of will waste the zerg enough mining time to more than make up for it especially when this "trick" uses that many drones
I don't see how you see "500 minerals" wasted.
I've been walled in when I 14 gas 14 pooled and it still blocks me in before zerglings come out. The pool just doesn't finish in time. But with this technique I can take down a pylon just in time for my zerglings to come out and bust down everything else very easily. If I can't take out that first pylon then the zerglings won't kill it in time to prevent the cannon and I'll still be stuck in my base. So I think its a good trick. It may not help you all that much if you 15 hatched but it can certainly help you in other situations.
well the only reason a protoss will wall off a zerg is too slow down his macro, fast expanding while the protoss himself will fast expand to give himself an edge, however due to this trick the zerg can break down the protoss wall and expo and so the protoss would either make more pylons to try to stop the zerg as much as possible but committing more of his resources into the wall while all the zerg needs to do is to break down 1 pylon and get back to droning while he uses 4 to break down the others or a cannon if the other pylon finishes and making his expansion. I'm not an expert but i think that's about it. You should watch Destiny he actually did this this morning and won so it is pretty good.
On September 02 2011 00:54 MildSeven wrote: dumbest "trick" ever, having like 15 drones waste mining time just for such a time-consuming micro, the mineral lost in that 30 sec was probaly over 300, while the opponent can easily just build 2 new pylons or something behind it.
As you might or might not know, mining time is almost a non-issue in this situation and if that's all you lose, Z is lightyears ahead.
On September 02 2011 03:00 RichWing wrote: I just thought of something. How about a 6pool vs P/T incorporating your workers to utilize this trick to break down their wall fast. Would that work?
Damn, i wanted to do that and feel original
maybe 10 pool -> 2 gas -> 6lings -> gas cancel
so you would have 6 lings and 9 drones to drill. I guess it could work,
Milkyway posted a screenshot. He says it take roughly 20 seconds in game time. You can also break the middle pylon, which will force protoss to build 3 extra plyons to re-wall.
On September 02 2011 01:17 SifySify wrote: I'll just leave this here - it works with SCV repair too.
This can be useful for Terran bottom of the ramp wall of. In regular scenario zerglins have a much bigger surface area than SCVs and thus the depot can get slowly destroyed. With this you can bypass the repairing SCV limit.
Does that actually work? I thought repair has an much faster "refire" rate, ie almost constant, compared to slow worker attacks.
EPT
