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On September 01 2011 10:07 Wrongspeedy wrote:Yes the ladder will be more fair. Another build protoss cannot use, that could be stopped by having 1 drone sit at the bottom of your ramp while the probe is by your base. Not saying Zerg is OP like your ladder buddy. But your concept of fairness is lost on me. How was it ever unfair to invest 150+100+100+100+150 (+ the additional cannons you would need past the first) to kill a building that costs 300. I hate to sound like a Beta Zerg but, Protoss is screwed.
If you think your race seriously had to rely entirely on stuff like this to win in the first place then you've got more serious problems.
Also, your reckoning of the relative costs is inaccurate. You do far more than just "kill" a 300 mineral building. A successful Pylon + Cannon block at the ramp completely screws over the Zerg, and he can't win unless he pulls some stroke of genius, gets lucky, or the Protoss messes up big time.
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yeah i hope they remove the lower supply depot as well, so i can wall in below the ramp again and deny worker scouting on 4 player maps by a really high chance.
Oops shouldn't have revealed the true reason for the supply depot now.
I wonder though if we will ever see this in a cheese game where they take their workers with them to kill the wallin
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wow nice find, totally reminds me of BW worker stacking :D
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IMO the 3 pylon or 2 bunker walls have never been the biggest of issues. Maps which allow the construction of canons behind the minerals with pylons blocking are the most annoying. Aside from that, pylon/ebay/depot blocking the expansion is also a pretty huge issue.
Those reasons are some of the reasons why I run an economically viable 11 overlord, 11 pool (11 overpool) build as standard, while sometimes varying to hatch first on the right maps.
As far as I know (maybe people have posted about this already) the biggest reason for the lowered depots is to prevent the cheap/abusive 1-depot 1-barracks wall-ins on the low ground. I don't consider those to be very fair.
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Canada13407 Posts
On September 01 2011 11:26 Xapti wrote:
IMO the 3 pylon or 2 bunker walls have never been the biggest of issues. Maps which allow the construction of canons behind the minerals with pylons blocking are the most annoying. Aside from that, pylon/ebay/depot blocking the expansion is also a pretty huge issue.
Those reasons are some of the reasons why I run an economically viable 11 overlord, 11 pool (11 overpool) build as standard, while sometimes varying to hatch first on the right maps.
As far as I know (maybe people have posted about this already) the biggest reason for the lowered depots is to prevent the cheap/abusive 1-depot 1-barracks wall-ins on the low ground. I don't consider those to be very fair.
Behind mineral line cannon rushes can be beaten in a similar way if you bunch up on the mineral patch next to the single pylon
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Lol what's up with the video in the OP? That's not how you do it...
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On September 01 2011 11:00 GentleDrill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 10:07 Wrongspeedy wrote:Yes the ladder will be more fair. Another build protoss cannot use, that could be stopped by having 1 drone sit at the bottom of your ramp while the probe is by your base. Not saying Zerg is OP like your ladder buddy. But your concept of fairness is lost on me. How was it ever unfair to invest 150+100+100+100+150 (+ the additional cannons you would need past the first) to kill a building that costs 300. I hate to sound like a Beta Zerg but, Protoss is screwed. If you think your race seriously had to rely entirely on stuff like this to win in the first place then you've got more serious problems. Also, your reckoning of the relative costs is inaccurate. You do far more than just "kill" a 300 mineral building. A successful Pylon + Cannon block at the ramp completely screws over the Zerg, and he can't win unless he pulls some stroke of genius, gets lucky, or the Protoss messes up big time.
The Protoss cannot even expand safely after he does that block, your not as far behind as you think (your not even really behind). The Protoss invested twice as much, cut probes, and delayed his cybernetics. My point is that everytime this happens, thats one less option a Protoss has. If you 6 pool on Shakuras, you will kill a Forge FE every single time.
Are you the same Zerg players who think that you have to have more bases than the Protoss to win as well (If you believe that you really should take a long hard look at all your games)? Like I also said, this pylon block isn't even a good build to begin with because even before this, good players would scout with a drone and stop it. Everyday Protoss builds become less viable. Everything we do is deemed all in (because we are a race of gimmicks and tricks). Someone posted a thread today about Huk's PvT at Mlg, which was ridiculous because he was just doing the 3 gate sentry expand like in PvZ. Oh and I've lost plenty of games in a # of different ways after doing one of those pylon blocks. You have a lot more options than you give Zerg credit for (Protoss has more options than I give them credit).
1. Spines kill cannons
2. Roaches kill cannons
3. You have a drone outside the cannons and expand elsewhere
4. You have a drone outside the cannons and expand in the Protoss base
5. Nydus All-in
If I get those pylons and cannons down I'm getting a cybernetics and 3 gates ASAP. Or if I think Roaches are coming maybe 2 gates and a Stargate. Either way its 1 base to 1 base with an equal amount of workers at best for the Protoss. This frustration has nothing to do with Zerg. It has to do with the fact that PvZ used to be considered the easier MU for Protoss
Do you think PvT has gotten any easier lately? Its a sad day in Protoss ville when all you can look forward to is a PvP. End Rant.
User was warned for this post
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On September 01 2011 11:33 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 11:00 GentleDrill wrote:On September 01 2011 10:07 Wrongspeedy wrote:Yes the ladder will be more fair. Another build protoss cannot use, that could be stopped by having 1 drone sit at the bottom of your ramp while the probe is by your base. Not saying Zerg is OP like your ladder buddy. But your concept of fairness is lost on me. How was it ever unfair to invest 150+100+100+100+150 (+ the additional cannons you would need past the first) to kill a building that costs 300. I hate to sound like a Beta Zerg but, Protoss is screwed. If you think your race seriously had to rely entirely on stuff like this to win in the first place then you've got more serious problems. Also, your reckoning of the relative costs is inaccurate. You do far more than just "kill" a 300 mineral building. A successful Pylon + Cannon block at the ramp completely screws over the Zerg, and he can't win unless he pulls some stroke of genius, gets lucky, or the Protoss messes up big time. The Protoss cannot even expand safely after he does that block, your not as far behind as you think (your not even really behind). The Protoss invested twice as much, cut probes, and delayed his cybernetics. My point is that everytime this happens, thats one less option a Protoss has. If you 6 pool on Shakuras, you will kill a Forge FE every single time. Are you the same Zerg players who think that you have to have more bases than the Protoss to win as well (If you believe that you really should take a long hard look at all your games)? Like I also said, this pylon block isn't even a good build to begin with because even before this, good players would scout with a drone and stop it. Everyday Protoss builds become less viable. Everything we do is deemed all in (because we are a race of gimmicks and tricks). Someone posted a thread today about Huk's PvT at Mlg, which was ridiculous because he was just doing the 3 gate sentry expand like in PvZ. Oh and I've lost plenty of games in a # of different ways after doing one of those pylon blocks. You have a lot more options than you give Zerg credit for (Protoss has more options than I give them credit). 1. Spines kill cannons 2. Roaches kill cannons 3. You have a drone outside the cannons and expand elsewhere 4. You have a drone outside the cannons and expand in the Protoss base 5. Nydus All-in If I get those pylons and cannons down I'm getting a cybernetics and 3 gates ASAP. Or if I think Roaches are coming maybe 2 gates and a Stargate. Either way its 1 base to 1 base with an equal amount of workers at best for the Protoss. This frustration has nothing to do with Zerg. It has to do with the fact that PvZ used to be considered the easier MU for Protoss Do you think PvT has gotten any easier lately? Its a sad day in Protoss ville when all you can look forward to is a PvP. End Rant.
All I hear is Toss QQ.
Zerg is definitely behind if his hatch first gets cannon rushed. That's an undeniable fact. We usually have to invest in spines or roaches to break the wall, which puts us further behind. Do you think Zerg being EVEN with Terran or Toss is ever a good thing, aside from the late game?
Zerg has to have more bases, or be significantly ahead (i.e. I just killed your whole army with few losses and we're both on 2 base) for equal bases to work. EVERY Zerg strategy evolves around getting that fast third while denying Toss and Terran their third. It's undeniable fact. The only 2 base strategies that work towards NOT getting a third right away are nydus strategies and rushing to infestors. Those builds are designed to punish greedy toss players, and only work in those situations.
Protoss builds are becoming less viable because Protoss aren't making new builds. I read a lot of new Terran builds, a few Zerg ones, and little to no Toss ones every week. FFE is not an auto loss to 6 pool. You should scout it, and put a cannon in your mineral line while letting your forge die, then hold off initial 6 lings with probe micro until cannon finishes, then throw down gateway/core and you're ahead. Granted, there are things like close positions that make certain builds an auto loss, but there's not much you can do about that regardless of race.
A lot of things you do is deemed all in because it IS all in. When Toss loses their entire army in a timing attack, unless they're on 3+ bases and have enough gateways, they lost. That's an all in attack, meaning you have nothing to fall back on. Not enough Toss players do smart aggression, meaning little pokes, splitting off little groups of stalkers to go kill expansions, warp prism drops, etc., then they complain that they can't attack without being all in? Toss players say Infestors are imba yet don't make HTs. I don't understand. 1 HT can take out 4 infestors. FOUR. Then they can morph into Archons. You don't hear me complaining.
Lastly, I don't know why you are complaining about PvT in this thread.
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i'm still nto convinced as i haven't tried it, however, in that video it took 36 seconds to break the pylon. a cannon builds in 40.
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Cool trick! No more loosing to Protoss cannon-rushing bullshit!
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On September 01 2011 12:04 BroboCop wrote:
i'm still nto convinced as i haven't tried it, however, in that video it took 36 seconds to break the pylon. a cannon builds in 40.
Yeah, but you should be at the ramp before the pylons finish and the cannon is started.
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In my opinion, if I ever win after s three pylon block, it's because I went nydus/ roach off of one base against a protoss that FFE after the cannons. Which is really stupid now that I think about it, from th Protoss side. If you manage to contain a Zerg like this and force him to cut drones to tech and make units, expanding is the stupidest thing you could do. After a wall-in like this, the best response would probably be a 5gate or 3gate expand.
So many Protoss die after FORCING a Zerg to allin and make no units of their own.
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Very clever find. Free FEs for Zergs now -.-' Joy.
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On September 01 2011 05:17 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 05:14 NemesysTV wrote:On September 01 2011 05:07 See.Blue wrote:
Can probes do this, say as a way to oneshot zerglings in your mineral line during a 6pool? All workers You are implying to stack them all then focus fire the closest zergling?
Yeah. That seems to be its biggest use to me as a toss player. Spam click on mineral patch, let lings surround ball of probes, then attack click a ling, oneshotting it, then rinse wash repeat.
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On September 01 2011 12:36 Emporio wrote:
In my opinion, if I ever win after s three pylon block, it's because I went nydus/ roach off of one base against a protoss that FFE after the cannons. Which is really stupid now that I think about it, from th Protoss side. If you manage to contain a Zerg like this and force him to cut drones to tech and make units, expanding is the stupidest thing you could do. After a wall-in like this, the best response would probably be a 5gate or 3gate expand.
So many Protoss die after FORCING a Zerg to allin and make no units of their own.
Amusing. I've seen the same from Zergs who steal my gas and then cuss me out for 4gating them. Guess it must be human nature.
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Seems like a good back up plan worst case scenario. I'd hardly say tournament maps should have supply depot walls removed however.
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On September 01 2011 12:45 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 05:17 ZeromuS wrote:On September 01 2011 05:14 NemesysTV wrote:On September 01 2011 05:07 See.Blue wrote:
Can probes do this, say as a way to oneshot zerglings in your mineral line during a 6pool? All workers You are implying to stack them all then focus fire the closest zergling? Yeah. That seems to be its biggest use to me as a toss player. Spam click on mineral patch, let lings surround ball of probes, then attack click a ling, oneshotting it, then rinse wash repeat.
This probably wouldn't be as effective as just amoving.
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I've been playing with it...
I can consistently kill a pylon in ~20 seconds with 15 drones.
All things considered, I think that is too long of a time to have all your workers off the mineral line and don't really like this trick all that much.
But still... it's not to know it exists.
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On September 01 2011 13:17 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 12:45 See.Blue wrote:On September 01 2011 05:17 ZeromuS wrote:On September 01 2011 05:14 NemesysTV wrote:On September 01 2011 05:07 See.Blue wrote:
Can probes do this, say as a way to oneshot zerglings in your mineral line during a 6pool? All workers You are implying to stack them all then focus fire the closest zergling? Yeah. That seems to be its biggest use to me as a toss player. Spam click on mineral patch, let lings surround ball of probes, then attack click a ling, oneshotting it, then rinse wash repeat. This probably wouldn't be as effective as just amoving.
Really? It could be done rapidly and that'd kill any lings that venture into your mineral line...
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EPT
