On September 01 2011 10:07 Wrongspeedy wrote:Yes the ladder will be more fair. Another build protoss cannot use, that could be stopped by having 1 drone sit at the bottom of your ramp while the probe is by your base. Not saying Zerg is OP like your ladder buddy. But your concept of fairness is lost on me. How was it ever unfair to invest 150+100+100+100+150 (+ the additional cannons you would need past the first) to kill a building that costs 300. I hate to sound like a Beta Zerg but, Protoss is screwed.
If you think your race seriously had to rely entirely on stuff like this to win in the first place then you've got more serious problems.
Also, your reckoning of the relative costs is inaccurate. You do far more than just "kill" a 300 mineral building. A successful Pylon + Cannon block at the ramp completely screws over the Zerg, and he can't win unless he pulls some stroke of genius, gets lucky, or the Protoss messes up big time.
The Protoss cannot even expand safely after he does that block, your not as far behind as you think (your not even really behind). The Protoss invested twice as much, cut probes, and delayed his cybernetics. My point is that everytime this happens, thats one less option a Protoss has. If you 6 pool on Shakuras, you will kill a Forge FE every single time.
Are you the same Zerg players who think that you have to have more bases than the Protoss to win as well (If you believe that you really should take a long hard look at all your games)? Like I also said, this pylon block isn't even a good build to begin with because even before this, good players would scout with a drone and stop it. Everyday Protoss builds become less viable. Everything we do is deemed all in (because we are a race of gimmicks and tricks). Someone posted a thread today about Huk's PvT at Mlg, which was ridiculous because he was just doing the 3 gate sentry expand like in PvZ. Oh and I've lost plenty of games in a # of different ways after doing one of those pylon blocks. You have a lot more options than you give Zerg credit for (Protoss has more options than I give them credit).
1. Spines kill cannons 2. Roaches kill cannons 3. You have a drone outside the cannons and expand elsewhere 4. You have a drone outside the cannons and expand in the Protoss base 5. Nydus All-in
If I get those pylons and cannons down I'm getting a cybernetics and 3 gates ASAP. Or if I think Roaches are coming maybe 2 gates and a Stargate. Either way its 1 base to 1 base with an equal amount of workers at best for the Protoss. This frustration has nothing to do with Zerg. It has to do with the fact that PvZ used to be considered the easier MU for Protoss
Do you think PvT has gotten any easier lately? Its a sad day in Protoss ville when all you can look forward to is a PvP. End Rant.
That is why this is all in your not suppose to be able to expand when doing htis....and yes if you pull it off you are actually ahead.
1. If you trying to break it with spine crawlers then it going to take a while to spread the creep and this basically give you a decent time to expo. 2. Decent choice but forces the zerg to go all-in and hope it break. It also depend on map too because if the rush distance is far, the roaches might not make it to the toss base in time before he get cannons up to defend. 3. Your hoping he doesnt spot it cause if he does, he cannon it and your screwed. Pretty bad decision and gimicky. 4. Gimicky as well hoping toss dont see it 5. Gimicky once again, hoping he doesnt spot your nydus in your base. It comes down to if toss can get collosi out in time.
Overall, if you still dont believe that toss doesnt come out insanely ahead from being able to set this up, just watch combatex. Terrible player, yet he GM....hmm.....
If they ever remove the depot in lieue of this strategy, what's the math of scvs repairing a bunker wall versus the ideal 50 dmg / shot. Can a bunch of drones easily outdps the repair before a marine or two shows up?
state of sc2 in a nutshell. Zergs bitch, game gets patched instead of forcing them to innovate. Months later some random dudes like oh you all could have just done this and made that thing you wouldnt shut up about totally terrible.
fucking lol. its all idra's fault, he legitimized the bitching.
On September 01 2011 13:28 Incandenza wrote: If they ever remove the depot in lieue of this strategy, what's the math of scvs repairing a bunker wall versus the ideal 50 dmg / shot. Can a bunch of drones easily outdps the repair before a marine or two shows up?
ya, I am concern about this too. But I dont think someone would pull such a large amount of scv to be able to out repair it. If the repair rate is stronger, then the other option would be to bust it before it completes. How that will go iono :/
A Korean Protoss pro MilkyWay has just released a method to completely stop apylon/bunker wall in at the opponent's ramp between the base and the natural.
I personally believe that artificial controls over game plays must be minimized, so I'm creating a new thread to inform this tip, encouraging foreign tourneys that use neutral supply depot to prevent wall in rush to remove those depots from the map, since the particular play can be overcome with the tip Milkyway provided.
The tip is very simple. When your ramp is blocked by your opponent, you first gather your workers near by the ramp. Then you should click on a close mineral patch in your natural. The workers will stack right in front of the wall. You should A-click the wall, which will instantly cause your slack to go loose. You should quickly re-click the mineral patch, and keep doing this until the wall is broken.
According to Milkyway, this method will deal a damage of 50~60(depending on your neat execution and worker counts) per attack and you will most likely break through the wall when the first cannon is about 50% done. You should force cancel the cannon/ other bunkers under construction using your workers.
Milkyway added in comments that Protoss will virtually have 0% winrate if their cannon rush fails this way, since Zerg would suffer almost 0 damage(little mining time), while Protoss would lose 3 pylons and a few cannons. He even recommends Zerg players to induce Protoss to do cannon rush if the zerg player is confident with his execution of this Wall Breaker method. He asserts that this will 100% prevent/stop cannon and bunker walling in rush, if executed properly by the defender. He also said that Zergs should always take expansions first to maximize the advantage.
I never liked foreign tourneys preventing wall in type rushes by artificial means because you actually can prevent it with pure micro skills such as by putting your worker on patrol and using your workers to repel your opponent's probes/scvs/marines. It just required some attention and fair micro.
Anyways, since the hard counter has been released, I hope we do not see neutral supply depots to prevent wall ins on foreign tourney maps anymore.
This is my first thread, so I hope I didn't mess up anything big. Rejoice, Zerg players.
Milkyway's original post was blinded because angry Protoss mobs thumbed down this tip(it was more like prank thumb downs because Protoss is doing so poorly in Korea. With today's result, Protoss's winrate in current GSL dropped to 31%. I'm mentioning this to explain why Milkyway's great thread was blinded, so please stay refrained from off topic balance posts.)
So this is obviously going to mean that Zerg has a viable defense for a cannon wall-in and should have some lighter, but still effective implications for bunker wall-ins.
Here's a video posted by Nemesys showing the drill in action:
I think this small technique, refined of course, will work wonders for early game base defense for Zerg and am opening a mirror thread here to discuss the utility of the tactic rather than removing the depot from maps.
Definitely something that can refined, the zerg doing the trick can also do so with 1/3 of the drones (same result as seen obviously in the video). Should work really well if you have 100+ apm to spam click the minerals...
On September 01 2011 05:07 See.Blue wrote: Can probes do this, say as a way to oneshot zerglings in your mineral line during a 6pool?
All workers
You are implying to stack them all then focus fire the closest zergling?
Yeah. That seems to be its biggest use to me as a toss player. Spam click on mineral patch, let lings surround ball of probes, then attack click a ling, oneshotting it, then rinse wash repeat.
This probably wouldn't be as effective as just amoving.
Really? It could be done rapidly and that'd kill any lings that venture into your mineral line...
When has only 1 ling ever went into a mineral line? It's most commonly ling run-bys, which are commonly ~10 lings. in that case, you're just overkilling one ling at a time, while you can click a mineral patch and surround by attack move (or, just run away and warp in units if you arent on cd).
I dont see how this changes anything zvp, 3 pylon wall is just a cute trick that delays expo. The best response so far is what i saw sen do with 5 banelings 1 zergling busting and killing all 3 pylons at the same time. Gives Z worker advantage and you can take a 3rd quickly if toss went forge nexus.
Dimaga's right. The pylon and cannon behind minerals when you hatch first is why you DONT hatch first zvp and thats not gonna change.
On September 01 2011 14:45 T0fuuu wrote: I dont see how this changes anything zvp, 3 pylon wall is just a cute trick that delays expo. The best response so far is what i saw sen do with 5 banelings 1 zergling busting and killing all 3 pylons at the same time. Gives Z worker advantage and you can take a 3rd quickly if toss went forge nexus.
Dimaga's right. The pylon and cannon behind minerals when you hatch first is why you DONT hatch first zvp and thats not gonna change.
Solution might be different, but theres a point as he stated, this WONT change the match up. It is just another good trick to know that might save your ass sometime in the future.
You can do this the the pylons behind your minerals too guys...
Well possibly, it'll probably depend on position. But it might prove to turn out better than the standard cancel hatch and all in methods most zergs are using to get to stop the cannon rush.
I imagine this trick has effectively stopped most canon use against zerg.
On September 01 2011 14:57 Uncultured wrote: You can do this the the pylons behind your minerals too guys...
Well possibly, it'll probably depend on position. But it might prove to turn out better than the standard cancel hatch and all in methods most zergs are using to get to stop the cannon rush.
I imagine this trick has effectively stopped most canon use against zerg.
I doubt this would work behind your own mineral line. The worker pathing is too good to get stuck like that.
Umm just keep a drone at your ramp? but thats easier said then done right.
Pulling all your drones seems kind of redic if you ask me, sure u may break out even investment wise, but no one seems to take into account that the toss is still mining, and you are not.
So lets say in a perfect world, toss drops 450 mins, and u lost 450 mins in mining time, cool we are even, nope incorrect toss has been mining for the last minute and a half and has mined another 400, while u have mined prob lets say 50 or prob more, because you made another drone, when u pulled, i meen i hope u would lol. So the zerg base is staying at the 5 min mark, while the toss base is blossoming into a collosi making butterfly.
rofl imagine screwing up the trick, and not kill the pylon in time, might as well facepalm and gg out. but someone else has prob already made my point and made me look like a douche
On September 01 2011 14:57 Uncultured wrote: You can do this the the pylons behind your minerals too guys...
Well possibly, it'll probably depend on position. But it might prove to turn out better than the standard cancel hatch and all in methods most zergs are using to get to stop the cannon rush.
I imagine this trick has effectively stopped most canon use against zerg.
I doubt this would work behind your own mineral line. The worker pathing is too good to get stuck like that.
No, he's right. There could be pylon positions that would let this work. You can stack workers on a mineral patch by rapidly right-clicking on it; if the position the workers stack on is within attack range of one of the pylons, you could get the same kind of stacked attack to work.
In fact, I'm going to test this tonight, I think, because this would be really cool in PvP to be able to block those boss cannon rushes.
On September 01 2011 14:57 Uncultured wrote: You can do this the the pylons behind your minerals too guys...
Well possibly, it'll probably depend on position. But it might prove to turn out better than the standard cancel hatch and all in methods most zergs are using to get to stop the cannon rush.
I imagine this trick has effectively stopped most canon use against zerg.
Show me how you do it behind a mineral line. The drones will just walk around the mineral. This trick sometimes makes me have to click on a second expos mineral line on maps like crypt because your workers have to stack up somewhere at the bottom of the ramp or they will just go to a cliff instead.
A lot of useful information so far it seems, did a little testing on this myself, overall it seems pretty useless only seems to be viable against this exact scenario bunkers or pylons at the end of a choke(no need to be a ramp so it works on tal'darim) it doesn't seem to be of any use holding a 6 pool though I was controlling both units so the result (which ranged from all drones dead with 4 lings alive to all lings dead with 14/16 drones alive) is somewhat inconclusive.
However I did a quick test (detailed in video below) and basically when performed correctly it kills a pylon at the almost exact speed of a worker surround on a pylon also (thus being very useful in this scenario) haven't tried any of that shift click stuff so perhaps with that you can even out dps a standard surround.
On September 01 2011 15:36 Regogreiki wrote: Umm just keep a drone at your ramp? but thats easier said then done right.
Pulling all your drones seems kind of redic if you ask me, sure u may break out even investment wise, but no one seems to take into account that the toss is still mining, and you are not.
So lets say in a perfect world, toss drops 450 mins, and u lost 450 mins in mining time, cool we are even, nope incorrect toss has been mining for the last minute and a half and has mined another 400, while u have mined prob lets say 50 or prob more, because you made another drone, when u pulled, i meen i hope u would lol. So the zerg base is staying at the 5 min mark, while the toss base is blossoming into a collosi making butterfly.
rofl imagine screwing up the trick, and not kill the pylon in time, might as well facepalm and gg out. but someone else has prob already made my point and made me look like a douche
This is terrible logic. Toss loses 450 minerals early on, Zerg loses 450 minerals later on. In the end, the same amount of minerals are lost. If anything, in this situation, Protoss is more screwed because early income is more important than later income.
However, I'm still not convinced that the mineral loss from this technique will allow the game to proceed with standard advantages, because you either have to delay your queen if you went pool first since you lose minerals during the time you are supposed to start making it, or you cut a lot of drones if you hatch first, since you should have also dropped your pool and have to either cut drones to have enough money for the queen or you delay the queen even more.
For Protoss, it's relatively easy to cut the gateway/cyber so you cut tech instead of econ, so there's no damage there in the long run.
In other words, I feel like even if mineral advantages are the same for both sides, the queen must get delayed in some fashion, resulting in a Zerg disadvantage.
EPT
