On September 03 2011 00:09 ohampatu wrote: Another note, for zerg users who can't perform this trick. If a protoss 3 pylons and cannons you into your main. Use your scouting drone to make a hatch in his base.
Im serious. Unless he spends over 600 minerals on pylons/canons near the hatch you can go roach back home, and when the hatch pops make a queen and roaches from the the proxy hatch. It works hella good, because we have spent soo much money containing you, and then more than likely we expod.
3 roaches can pretty much devastate everything. Cheese the cheeser. Its why when i cannon i dont do ramp wallins. You insta lose to a good proxy hatch.
or he spots it, pulls a few probes to force the cancel and you lose the game.
A full sorround with 20 probes (you actually wont even have 20 probes, if he scouts the hatch instantly when it drops and pulls all he'll only have about 17. And you can cancel the hatch last minute and make him spend over 1k to defend. Your evening it up. You dont insta lose.
Your also forgetting how long it takes to kill a hatch. I have succesfully scouted the proxy hatch, and had 2 cannons down at the proxy hatch. I still had to pull about 10 probes and lost them all to the 5 roaches that finished.
Unless you get outplayed. Proxy hatching a FE Toss who wasted 600 minerals containing you will not cause you to lose. Your gonna even it up or win.
How much larvae comes out of a newly built hatch? Three instantly?
1 at time. Do you know how long it takes 1 cannon to kill a hatch? Enough for a queen to pop, inject larve, and enough for 2 larva to spawn and morph into roaches.
Edit: Or a better answer: 1 at a time. the first larva is instant, the 2nd is 7 seconds later i believe. Those 2 will always become roaches no matter if 2 or 3 cannons are down unless you had your pylon built by the proxy hatch before the hatch went down. Instead of inject alot of people just do creep tumor as well.
Dont probes have slightly longer range than drones? I cant seem to get as much damage per hit doing it with drones as with probes. Also I am using shattered temple - you cannot click the mineral patch at the expansion because they path to the cliff instead of stacking at the ramp. You have to use screen saves and do it like transfering workers in bw, f1 f2 etc.
On September 03 2011 01:33 samuraibael wrote: Dont probes have slightly longer range than drones? I cant seem to get as much damage per hit doing it with drones as with probes. Also I am using shattered temple - you cannot click the mineral patch at the expansion because they path to the cliff instead of stacking at the ramp. You have to use screen saves and do it like transfering workers in bw, f1 f2 etc.
What if you do it this way. Move command the drones to the front of the pylon. Or even select the drones your using and Attack click the pylon. Once they start attacking it. Right click the mineral patch on the other side of the wall. That should make them path to the minerals lines but still be in front of the pylon, Instead of pathing somewhere else. I think.
No they run back up the ramp and go the cliff. Only the mineral patches at the closest corner of the map for the respective starting position stacks them in the correct position. I suppose to use this we will need to learn the correct patches for every map/spawn location. Some maps might not even have one.
On September 03 2011 01:38 samuraibael wrote: No they run back up the ramp and go the wall.
With all drones selected, what if you move command them all right in front of the pylon, and then shift click queue by clicking on the other sides mining patch. I know there are easy ways to make the probe stay in front of the pylon, ive queued my probe a few times and it still went up ramp instead of running across the oustide wall.
Certain mineral patches seem to do the pathing differenet as well. Worker AI just so weird imho.
If Blizzard patches this away, I'm going to be so annoyed. This is brilliant. Let's not tell the Koreans and then have all zergs FE on Tal'Darim to induce the cannon rush.
On September 03 2011 01:38 samuraibael wrote: No they run back up the ramp and go the wall.
With all drones selected, what if you move command them all right in front of the pylon, and then shift click queue by clicking on the other sides mining patch. I know there are easy ways to make the probe stay in front of the pylon, ive queued my probe a few times and it still went up ramp instead of running across the oustide wall.
Certain mineral patches seem to do the pathing differenet as well. Worker AI just so weird imho.
I tried every mineral patch both right clicking and shift right clicking when the drones are on the ramp right in front of the pylon and each time they retreat back up the ramp and stack at the cliff. Using screen saves is the only possibility I think. It is not so much harder though, just requires slightly more muscle memory.
The time it takes to break a pylon seems to be this: 33 seconds auto attacking with 3 drones 30 seconds with 8 drones 20 seconds with 16 10 seconds with 32
On September 03 2011 01:38 samuraibael wrote: No they run back up the ramp and go the wall.
With all drones selected, what if you move command them all right in front of the pylon, and then shift click queue by clicking on the other sides mining patch. I know there are easy ways to make the probe stay in front of the pylon, ive queued my probe a few times and it still went up ramp instead of running across the oustide wall.
Certain mineral patches seem to do the pathing differenet as well. Worker AI just so weird imho.
I tried every mineral patch both right clicking and shift right clicking when the drones are on the ramp right in front of the pylon and each time they retreat back up the ramp and stack at the cliff. Using screen saves is the only possibility I think. It is not so much harder though, just requires slightly more muscle memory.
The time it takes to break a pylon seems to be this: 33 seconds auto attacking with 3 drones 30 seconds with 8 drones 20 seconds with 16 10 seconds with 32
So with 8 drones, you should be able to let the cannon to about 1/4th the way and still be able to stop it without any problems. Assuming toss doesn't gw block the pylon dieing.
On September 03 2011 01:40 tree.hugger wrote: If Blizzard patches this away, I'm going to be so annoyed. This is brilliant. Let's not tell the Koreans and then have all zergs FE on Tal'Darim to induce the cannon rush.
I have a feeling it will get patched. If it doesn't get patched then they should patch teh way zerglings stack when they are bunched together.
Idk if you saw my earlier post. But if 15 lings on on your ramp, and 4 of them are attacking (thats the amount normally allowed to attack). If you FF behind the lings but still almost on top of the cybercore/gw. All the lings stack up on top of eachother. All the lings can attack. This part needs to be fixed, cause it appears to be a bug and litterally i lost my cyber in about 2 seconds, but hopefully that wont affect worker stacking.
As far as I know the only ground units that can stack and still attack are workers and lings. If they take out lings, im fine with it.
Someone cannoned me, I did this, they just built even more cannons and pylons because they were clearly committing and everything was a waste of time because he didn't give a fuck if I killed his pylons
On September 03 2011 03:36 cactuschewer wrote: Someone cannoned me, I did this, they just built even more cannons and pylons because they were clearly committing and everything was a waste of time because he didn't give a fuck if I killed his pylons
Yes. Thats where it can get bad. Like on Taldarim. If he puts the 3 pylons and drops the cannon, he can put either 2 more pylons and/or a gateway to make sure you dont break it if hes fully committing. In my experiences. Either a 1 base nydus allin or the proxy hatch i mentioned earlier is a good way to break even with the toss. Not neccesarily win, and the game gets weird at that point, but its the only things i know that can punish him.
The second option you can do, is if he puts the 3 pylons and cannon up while your hatch is still making, cancel it and go somwhere else. You can hatch in a different place, and use roaches to break the pylon wall. Once the pylon wall is broken, ive found you can generally take the normal natural for a quick 3 bases. Cause we can't apply pressure after weve put that contain up.
On September 03 2011 03:36 cactuschewer wrote: Someone cannoned me, I did this, they just built even more cannons and pylons because they were clearly committing and everything was a waste of time because he didn't give a fuck if I killed his pylons
Yes. Thats where it can get bad. Like on Taldarim. If he puts the 3 pylons and drops the cannon, he can put either 2 more pylons and/or a gateway to make sure you dont break it if hes fully committing. In my experiences. Either a 1 base nydus allin or the proxy hatch i mentioned earlier is a good way to break even with the toss. Not neccesarily win, and the game gets weird at that point, but its the only things i know that can punish him.
The second option you can do, is if he puts the 3 pylons and cannon up while your hatch is still making, cancel it and go somwhere else. You can hatch in a different place, and use roaches to break the pylon wall. Once the pylon wall is broken, ive found you can generally take the normal natural for a quick 3 bases. Cause we can't apply pressure after weve put that contain up.
The point is that this is only good if the toss doesn't fully commit to this, and if he does, it's just a matter of time until you lose.
If you opened hatch first and he - went forge first: you have to kill all the pylons fast or he will place cannons, that will cost you so much that he can just build a gate and chronoboost zealots OR just build more pylons n cannons - went gate first and just faked the pylons: you can try to let the cannons there, but if he gets a forge right after the gate and you pretty much don't scout it(because it takes everything to kill the pylons) you are either killed by cannons or zealots - went gatge first and placed the forge right away: well you have to kill the pylons again, just that he will most likely have 1 or 2 zealots so hat you have to deal with these too, you will have to be insanely lucky to stop that
The easiest answer imho is just not going hatch first and/or to be extremely attentive to the probe, there's no other way around this.
This little trick only helps if the protoss - blocked your ramp for shits and giggles and - just plays his standard game without applying more pressure afterwards
This is the experience you get when browsing the strategy forums and I also experienced this myself.
I highly doubt that any decent protoss that commits to this "cheese" and gets your ramped blocked completely will ever lose against mineral-walk attacking drones.
this could be uses even more efficiently attack one of the pylons with 2 or 3 drones and do the trick with the rest of your drones ... what you guys think about it?
Thanks to this i got a dude to threaten me to ban me for hacking :D Milkyway = genius
This is revolutionary for zerg play in general.
Blizz should not patch this, blocking ramps is kind of a bitch(no offense) move and to be able to punish that is just how the game is supposed to work in my opinion.
I just went 11pool 18 hatch against a forge first who decided to wall me off with pylons. Using 2 lings and all my drones to drill, the pylon went down in no time. My 15 drones seemed to do about 1/6 of the pylon's health in damage with every drill.
On September 02 2011 23:26 ohampatu wrote: Yea idk if this is meant to be or not. I know that all units work like this when stacked. The problem is only workers can be stacked. Im very happy this trick helps though, even if its not intended.
I once put an FF behind lings attacking my cybercore, to trap them. It grouped all 15 lings on top of eachother. They killed the cybercore faster than if they had a full surround. TT. The engine acts weird when stacked/attacking at the same time.
So OP when the trick works on individual units. The cybercore litterally died in about 2 seconds.
So if this is true, can you use 10+ zealots and a few FFs to turbokill enemy structures? Think of implications for zlot/sentry vs bunkers, or later-game prism drops to snipe z tech buildings (protects the zlots vs lings/banes, too! lol!).
EPT
