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On September 03 2011 07:53 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 23:26 ohampatu wrote:
Yea idk if this is meant to be or not. I know that all units work like this when stacked. The problem is only workers can be stacked. Im very happy this trick helps though, even if its not intended.
I once put an FF behind lings attacking my cybercore, to trap them. It grouped all 15 lings on top of eachother. They killed the cybercore faster than if they had a full surround. TT. The engine acts weird when stacked/attacking at the same time.
So OP when the trick works on individual units. The cybercore litterally died in about 2 seconds. So if this is true, can you use 10+ zealots and a few FFs to turbokill enemy structures? Think of implications for zlot/sentry vs bunkers, or later-game prism drops to snipe z tech buildings (protects the zlots vs lings/banes, too! lol!).
bump
anyone?
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MC in his (video)radio interview uses FF's to group units up tight like that, then he uses Colossus for super AOE. This thread should be called -Unit Stacking 101. And I often wondered sometimes why my units die super fast if I FF a bunch of marines in a small clump without aoe. Hopefully some pro's start to use this more and develop a few more tricks.
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On September 01 2011 01:07 Goolpsy wrote:
That is 15 drones working to take down a pylon? And then thereafter have to take down 1 or 2 cannons. How is that not alot of mining time?
The Math is 3xpylon + 2 cancelled cannons = 362 minerals vs 15/all mining workers for 1 ingame minute.
I do not not the exact numbers, but is it certain that Zerg will be economically ahead after this?
Even if the Z is behind in economy, P will be way behind in tech. To even survive the first lings out he will have to cannon up, allowing Z to drone up and maybe even take a 3rd depending on map.
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On September 04 2011 10:10 CakeOrI)eath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 01:07 Goolpsy wrote:
That is 15 drones working to take down a pylon? And then thereafter have to take down 1 or 2 cannons. How is that not alot of mining time?
The Math is 3xpylon + 2 cancelled cannons = 362 minerals vs 15/all mining workers for 1 ingame minute.
I do not not the exact numbers, but is it certain that Zerg will be economically ahead after this? Even if the Z is behind in economy, P will be way behind in tech. To even survive the first lings out he will have to cannon up, allowing Z to drone up and maybe even take a 3rd depending on map.
Yes. What i dont think people are realizing is this. Is if you break that contain. Your pretty much free to take 3 bases and drone for about 7-8 minutes.
People need to stop doing math like above though. The op should edit to include the testing that was done on earlier replys. Grabbing 15 or all your workers is dumb. You only need to grab 8, and you can let the cannon get to about 1/4th the way before starting to attack the pylon. So it doesn't even take a 'huge' quick response time, although the trick it self is harder to pull off than average.
But lets say you panick. You ctrl click your probes and do it with them all. You will still be ahead about 1 minute after you return to mining. And you can take 2 more bases. Just remember your evo chamber.
edit: evo chamber comment is if you do take 2 more bases (which you should rather quickly) make sure you got the anti void shit ready to go.
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On September 04 2011 09:47 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 07:53 Keilah wrote:On September 02 2011 23:26 ohampatu wrote:
Yea idk if this is meant to be or not. I know that all units work like this when stacked. The problem is only workers can be stacked. Im very happy this trick helps though, even if its not intended.
I once put an FF behind lings attacking my cybercore, to trap them. It grouped all 15 lings on top of eachother. They killed the cybercore faster than if they had a full surround. TT. The engine acts weird when stacked/attacking at the same time.
So OP when the trick works on individual units. The cybercore litterally died in about 2 seconds. So if this is true, can you use 10+ zealots and a few FFs to turbokill enemy structures? Think of implications for zlot/sentry vs bunkers, or later-game prism drops to snipe z tech buildings (protects the zlots vs lings/banes, too! lol!). bump anyone?
No. I answered earlier but musta got loss. After a bit of testing on my part (not much i'll admit). I can only get workers and lings to be able to stack and attack. No other unit will. A good example is MC's sentry abuse against july in gsl. So im pretty sure at least all ranged units aren't affected this way.
Id need more testing on the zealot, if you can force them all together they may be possible to attack if in range, but ive only experienced it with the worker and ling. I should make a video or find my replay and post, cause it may or may not be a bug. I think only workers are intended for this (or should be).
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This trick actually does not work on many maps. So far I've found that it does not work on shattered temple and metalopolis because the closest pathing to any mineral patches in your nat is from ramp, hence the drones will instead walk up ramp and stop there instead of stacking by the pylon.
You can, however, still do it on any other mineral patch on other expo. This of course requires map panning and increase the micro time by so much it's no longer worth it.
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This is really really cool!
Sadly, someone did a 3 pylon block to me on The Shattered Temple.. and I was excited to show this awesome trick to my friends. I had fraps on, and pressed my trusty F9 button to record... and the drones didn't go to the ramp 
GG
On the maps which work, I love it!
Really great trick, really great find.
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This trick doesn't seem to work on Nerazim Crypt, when you shift right click the expansion minerals the drones just go up the ramp and run along the cliff of your main.
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On September 04 2011 12:43 Essau wrote:
This trick doesn't seem to work on Nerazim Crypt, when you shift right click the expansion minerals the drones just go up the ramp and run along the cliff of your main.
you have to click on the further side of the mineral patches to get it ito work like farthest one away or something.
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here's my advice:
play on MLG maps.
Thank you
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On September 04 2011 13:24 crbox wrote:
here's my advice:
play on MLG maps.
Thank you
Tell this to blizzard, suggest that they make their maps fair to all 3 races.
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There's a lot of maps this doesn't work on, like on Backwater Gulch. By the time I found some random bases mineral line to make it work, I had no time and couldnt watch but had to use the minimap to figure when to attack. It's funny because I knew he was going to do that (he had ultralisk portrait so I knew a zerg playing protoss would try it), and I even had a drone following him and I saw him prepare for it, and I even had a drone following his scouting probe and it was actually positioned right and I blocked it, but I moved it intentionally so I could do this pro trick.
Huge backfire ;/
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why is this ramp blocking a problem anyway? can't zerg just poop some creep up the ramp and put 2 spine crawlers? pool is only 50m and 20 seconds more expensive than forge but protoss also needs 3 pylons, right?
maybe zerg should just go pool first instead of hatch first?
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^ You can't get creep in time to prevent a wall off. It takes 2 tumors to get creep onto the ramp, if not 3 on some maps, and not only that but it takes a long time for the creep to actually spread. By the time you have even a single tumor reaching down and 2 spines, the other race should have an expansion already up and running.
And pooling first isn't always safer. For example against 2 rax scv all-in, it's actually considered safer to go hatch first (if played right, not going hatch first can actually be an autoloss to a terran who plays smart).
Against Protoss you absolutely need to be a base ahead just to be even, and going pool first does absolutely nothing to stop cannon contains or wall-ins. Just because you go pool first, Protoss can still wall you in before zerglings come out, and 2 zerglings popping the same time 2 cannons finish isn't going to help. Then, Protoss can add cannons.
There's literally no way for Zerg to break out of a cannon contain if Protoss dedicates enough resources (ie 2 more cannons), and there's definitely no way to break a cannon contain without being so far behind that the game is completely unwinnable. No matter what opening you do, if Protoss gets those 3 pylons up blocking your ramp, there is absolutely no way to win the game against a competent Protoss (read: he isn't a moron and lets you build a hatch in his base or get a nydus in). It's completely game killing, there's literally nothing Zerg can do to win the game from there.
Personally I go 14/14, but that's to help with scouting, allows me to autowin against 2 gates or 4 gates without roaches, and possibly get a runby against FFE. It is not at all safer against Protoss who wall me in or cannon rush, if I know that Protoss is going to try to wall me in or cannon rush me or FFE, then I'd actually go hatch first every game. It doesn't matter what map you're on or what opening you did, you have to patrol a drone at the bottom and follow the scouting SCV with a drone.
It doesn't sound you like you play Zerg .___.
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haha this is such a awesome find^^
But i think it's way more economical to just put 2 drones on patrol,one at the bottom of the ramp and one behind a mineral line if you fear a cannon rush.Or one at the bottom of the ramp and one chasing the probe.
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On September 04 2011 03:17 GuardianEU wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 15:31 Belial88 wrote:
To the person who said you can 'counter' cannon contains with proxy hatch inbase with scouting drone.
You realize any half decent player will always keep track of the scouting worker in their base, and won't let a hatch go unnoticed right? And even then, the best response is just 2 cannons on it when it's halfway done.
Anyways because of cannons behind mineral lines, I won't be hatching first against P still. However it is nice I can do something against wall-ins now, I normally patrol a drone if I haven't scouted P yet (or I do scout and see forge). you do realize this is Catz's standard response to getting cannon rushed? and even if the hatch dies because of 2 cannons the P spent more money? and you can even go 1 base mutalisks after the proxy hatch to get the win? and the idea of the hatch is not to win, but to get 3 roaches out and 1shot workers with them?
lol until catz get big tourney and lan wins with his proxy hatch, it shall forever be a gimmick strat.
If the hatch dies to 2 cannons the P 'spent' 300 minerals on cannons, he still needs that pylon. I doubt a P is going to let your hatch live for 40s after finishing so you can get the 2 more larva and get roaches. The roaches don't even hatch all together.
Besides, the top pros that streams don't take ladder seriously. They do it for fan enjoyment trying out random strats and streaming revenus. If they did take ladder seriously, they wouldn't stream.
also. LoL at 1 base mutas.
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^ if you put the cannons when hatch half way done, you can cancel at last second if Zerg cancels. And even if you are slightly behind, you are miles ahead of a Zerg contained on 1 base that has absolutely no way to break out cost efficiently. Anyone who think proxy hatching is a viable strat is ridiculous, it only works against people who have no idea how to respond, which is 2 bunkers or 2 cannons when hatch is halfway.
Getting walled in as Zerg is an autoloss, and it's fucking ridiculous Blizz still allows it on ladder. What world do you live in where people find it a fun game when that happens? If Zerg doesn't have a hold position worker, Protoss autowins (or they are dumb and don't take the opportunity to wall-off). Terran can do the same thing as well (but it's more telling when they bring 3 workers before your hatch is up).
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This was fucking awesome and helped me rape a Protoss, thaaaankkkksssss
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Can this principle in any way be applied when the protoss does a manner double pylon wall behind your natural mineral line? In my opinion the zerg still is put economically behind if he has to cancel and relocate the hatchery... I almost see no protoss wall the ramp anymore, they mostly wall behind the natural mineral line.
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EPT
