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On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
I think thats race design though... I do guess its true in some ways however...
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On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them? Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp This is ridiculous. Terrans are also under represented in diamond and platinum. I suppose you're going to suggest that they're all in masters as well?
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
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On August 26 2011 04:04 dere wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them? Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp This is ridiculous. Terrans are also under represented in diamond and platinum. I suppose you're going to suggest that they're all in masters as well? http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
your data suggests that all races are equal in masters...first off...
while true that they're underrepresented in diamond/plat
and over represented in GM >_>
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On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them? Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
More people playing T doesnt mean that its OP. Maybe people who are better play T, and not that they play T so are better. But anyways this argument is kinda irrelevant.
I admit that the game needs to be balanced around Pros, but he has a point. T is the only race which HAS to pressure, they lose flat out macro games. Especially now mech is slowly getting beaten into the ground. So yea its hard for people to play without pretty awesome APM.
I cant remember who mentioned sjow, but i when Idra was asked how hed beat him, he said hed just get to the mid game and win due to better mechanics. So yea hes good, but his apm is just plain too low for top level.
It seems most of these changes are to stop Terran pressure/1 base all ins. So i ask you, where is my patch to nerf 3 gate proxy voids!!! ![](/mirror/smilies/smile.gif)
Also lol at the HSM buff, like people are actually going to use it. Im not sure why the really precise speed though, i wonder how they came up with that exact number. Can it catch a roach on creep now or something?
EDIT: Also all this shows (http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all) is that its really really easy for zerg to get to plat. Thats kinda well known lol.
Overall id say its a good patch, even though it hurts like hell as a T player. Not even T are complaining about the hellion nerf, its kinda weird though that harass wise, BF is now usless by itseld
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man still nobdy saying anything about infestors not 1 shotting banelings anymore which imo is fairly significant.
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On August 26 2011 04:09 Aletheia27 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 04:04 dere wrote:On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them? Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp This is ridiculous. Terrans are also under represented in diamond and platinum. I suppose you're going to suggest that they're all in masters as well? http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all your data suggests that all races are equal in masters...first off... while true that they're underrepresented in diamond/plat and over represented in GM >_>
Yes, you are right Masters is pretty balanced. I was just linking everyone to the data so they could quit inaccurately bitching about representation in a discussion about balance changes.
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As a Terran(And former Zerg) I really don't have any complaints about the changes. Hell, I agree with most of them.
BFH change was needed, they were ridiculous, sure its nice taking a Zerg from 90 drones to 30 by attacking 2 bases at once, but it was kinda crazy. Seeker missile being buffed is pretty cool. Now you actually need to split your units instead of just running away.
Fungal was really, really strong. Even when playing Zerg it felt too strong. Overseer cost decrease and contaminate nerf makes sense too. Make it slightly weaker(It's kinda crazy in ZvZ) but make it cheaper for easier scouting. Ultra buff has been needed for a long time.
Warp prism needed buffed, Blink was a bit too good, and the mothership change will actually help keep it a surprise. Not to mention the Immortal range buff which is really nice and, honestly, needed.
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1 is cool too. More defender's advantage(Which people have asked for). Strange change, but I like it.
I think this is the best patch yet, personally.
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I haven't tested this yet but I think the -1 sight range for the ramp change will affect peoples ability to kill ramp blocks from bunkers and cannon/pylons. I think a roach still gets hit by a cannon when trying to hit that middle pylon but with the change in might not. Just speculation though.
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i never thought blizz would revert back to old balance changes. it used to be that overseer was already 50/50. But they increased it and now it is back to normal. Thank the heavens they saw the light.
btw HSM is going to be good, I just know that people will start using it for blowing up mineral lines. I can see it and feel it.
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On August 26 2011 03:54 awesomoecalypse wrote:Because you're not thinking clearly. Show nested quote +Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go. This is, frankly, stupid. A major part of the problem with Protoss right now is that they are really, really inflexible. One some of their units are viable in most situations, and all of their units are expensive. They are hugely reliant on T3, and their harass options suck at most stages of the game.They have a few effective general strats which T and Z have fairly well figured out right now, and most Toss are trying to innovate, but the problem is that they just don't have that many good units. As you say, even though the Robo tree gets you 4 units, currently only 2 are fully viable. Immortals have a very narrow timing window of not sucking, and then they are viable against only specific builds. Warp Prisms can be effective, but due to their fragility strats built around them can fall apart with the slightest misclick. This addresses that issue. As was seen with both Roaches and Archons, range buffs are hugely beneficial to a Unit's overall effectiveness. Especially if, as with Immortals, they are both slow as hell and do insane dps once they get in range. Immortal+Zealot will hard-counter every single Roach-Ling all-in. Just park your Immortals behind your Zealots, watch the Lings get mauled as they try to get through the Zealots, while your Immortal sits safely in the back, sniping Roaches who can't hit back. An Immortal will also be much, much more useful in defending against 1/1/1 builds. Show nested quote + Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Uh....you do realize that FG used to have like twice as long a root effect right? And they cut it in half and bumped the dps accordingly, at which point it became insanely powerful? The DPS FG did to armored was 100% the problem. I mean, the Root effect is nice and all, but that has always been there, and in fact used to be better. All that has changed to make them better is higher dps. Now it is still fairly high, but not quite as crazy. That definitely helps. Show nested quote +Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push. How is it diminished? All of the stronger Blink rushes are built around hitting when +2 finishes, which is long after blink will finish pre or post patch. And nobody defends their base against DTs with Overseers anyway, they get like one spore crawler and let their queens do the rest. Show nested quote +P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf). This is idiotic. Unless you are playing for money, which you are not because you clearly don't know what you're talking about, something being "balanced" doesn't mean shit if it isn't fun, and current PvP is a total coinflip, which is unfun. The Immortal buff and the vision changes put an end to 4-gate, the blink timing delay means it will hit to late to stop a robo from getting enough Immortals to hold it off, meaning that PvP early and midgame will stabilize around robo. However, in the lategame, Guardian shield now works vs. Colossi fire and stacks with Immortal shiels, which combined with their improved range means they can actually get close enough to snipe Colossi, meaning 1-base Colossi wars are likely over. This is a good thing. A matchup built around coinflip BO wins which if it gets past that point turns into 1-base blink all-ins or Colossi wars 90% of the time, is stupid. Changing that is a good thing.
First off, your petulantly insulting attitude and ad-homs don't make your arguments stronger; they just make you sound like a kid with a chip on his shoulder (perhaps with the added benefit of allowing you to feel like a "big man" on an internet forum). Anyway:
In PvT, you need AOE to combat large bio-balls. If you attempt to form some kind of HT/immortal composition, then you're doubly vulnerable to EMP -- it both drains templar mana and eliminates the immortal hardened shield bonus. Collosus are still much more valuable outside of a two-base bunker bust that leverages immortals. Immortal range is not at all the issue with 1-1-1; it's the massive DPS of balled marines. Immortals have no trouble getting in range of the tanks; they have trouble standing up to marine DPS.
In PvZ, you still can't usefully mass them like you can roaches because they're much more expensive and take much longer to build. The +1 helps a little by making it easier to micro the 3-4 immortals that you can reasonably get. You're not going to suddenly see giant immortal balls in PvZ because they take too long and too much to build and they're easily countered by a spire tech-switch without the support of large numbers of stalkers and/or HT.
If I were to try and rebalance the PvZ midgame by tweaking infestors, my first choice would not be to adjust FG damage. I might look at the perma-snare ability of spammed FG, or the fact that it's not possible to dodge it like storm can be dodged. But FG damage just isn't a big deal; zealots and archons take forever to damage appreciably with FG. Infested terrans are a much bigger issue; 5 infestors can lob 40 infested terrans at a nexus, which can do over 11,000 damage before they despawn -- enough to kill the nexus, any cannons, workers, and even your whole army if you don't have splash damage when they hit. I'm talking about Destiny's playstyle here.
On the blink nerf: So what if the flavor-of-the-month "best" blink build is unaffected by this nerf? Now protoss can't even represent the threat that they might attack prior to +2. The consequence is that zerg knows he can safely drone for longer. This also breaks one-base blink stalker play on XNC which is also popular. The blink nerf effectively rules out a wide variety of earlier-hitting blink-pressure builds, thereby making it easier for zergs to predict how long they can drone in safety.
As for your PvP comments, I can tell you aren't a protoss and that you're talking out of your ass there. The consequences for PvP at all but the very highest levels of play are negligible.
Really, this patch has hardly anything of real interest for NA and EU protoss, and certainly isn't a significant protoss buff. The protoss buffs are there, but they're pretty minor in practice and I doubt that they will shift the metagame at all. The nerfs on the other hand -- especially the blink nerf -- will have an impact.
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I can't believe people are complaining that Infernal pre-igniter needs to be cheaper. 150/150 for units you can't run away from?
If that's the case, I think that overlord-carrying and banelings should be cheaper, so Zergs have an equally as powerful means to destroy an entire mineral line... Maybe we should make DTs spawn in pairs (like hellions) and the Dark shrine cost 150/100 (like a factory)....
I really like this nerf on BFH, and I hope it makes play a lot better so now you can't lose to 2 BFH in your mineral line.
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I feel like the patch is going over better than any of the others. These are the type of background things that wont break anything but will all contribute to helping what the big picture problems are.
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On August 26 2011 04:32 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:54 awesomoecalypse wrote:I don't really get why protoss players are so excited about these changes. Because you're not thinking clearly. Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go. This is, frankly, stupid. A major part of the problem with Protoss right now is that they are really, really inflexible. One some of their units are viable in most situations, and all of their units are expensive. They are hugely reliant on T3, and their harass options suck at most stages of the game.They have a few effective general strats which T and Z have fairly well figured out right now, and most Toss are trying to innovate, but the problem is that they just don't have that many good units. As you say, even though the Robo tree gets you 4 units, currently only 2 are fully viable. Immortals have a very narrow timing window of not sucking, and then they are viable against only specific builds. Warp Prisms can be effective, but due to their fragility strats built around them can fall apart with the slightest misclick. This addresses that issue. As was seen with both Roaches and Archons, range buffs are hugely beneficial to a Unit's overall effectiveness. Especially if, as with Immortals, they are both slow as hell and do insane dps once they get in range. Immortal+Zealot will hard-counter every single Roach-Ling all-in. Just park your Immortals behind your Zealots, watch the Lings get mauled as they try to get through the Zealots, while your Immortal sits safely in the back, sniping Roaches who can't hit back. An Immortal will also be much, much more useful in defending against 1/1/1 builds. Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Uh....you do realize that FG used to have like twice as long a root effect right? And they cut it in half and bumped the dps accordingly, at which point it became insanely powerful? The DPS FG did to armored was 100% the problem. I mean, the Root effect is nice and all, but that has always been there, and in fact used to be better. All that has changed to make them better is higher dps. Now it is still fairly high, but not quite as crazy. That definitely helps. Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push. How is it diminished? All of the stronger Blink rushes are built around hitting when +2 finishes, which is long after blink will finish pre or post patch. And nobody defends their base against DTs with Overseers anyway, they get like one spore crawler and let their queens do the rest. P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf). This is idiotic. Unless you are playing for money, which you are not because you clearly don't know what you're talking about, something being "balanced" doesn't mean shit if it isn't fun, and current PvP is a total coinflip, which is unfun. The Immortal buff and the vision changes put an end to 4-gate, the blink timing delay means it will hit to late to stop a robo from getting enough Immortals to hold it off, meaning that PvP early and midgame will stabilize around robo. However, in the lategame, Guardian shield now works vs. Colossi fire and stacks with Immortal shiels, which combined with their improved range means they can actually get close enough to snipe Colossi, meaning 1-base Colossi wars are likely over. This is a good thing. A matchup built around coinflip BO wins which if it gets past that point turns into 1-base blink all-ins or Colossi wars 90% of the time, is stupid. Changing that is a good thing. First off, your petulantly insulting attitude and ad-homs don't make your arguments stronger; they just make you sound like a kid with a chip on his shoulder (perhaps with the added benefit of allowing you to feel like a "big man" on an internet forum). Anyway: In PvT, you need AOE to combat large bio-balls. If you attempt to form some kind of HT/immortal composition, then you're doubly vulnerable to EMP -- it trains templar mana and eliminates the immortal hardened shield bonus. Collosus are still much more valuable outside of a two-base bunker bust that leverages immortals. In PvZ, you still can't usefully mass them like you can roaches because they're much more expensive and take much longer to build. The +1 helps a little by making it easier to micro the 3-4 immortals that you can reasonably get. You're not going to suddenly see giant immortal balls in PvZ because they take too long and too much to build and they're easily countered by a spire tech-switch without the support of large numbers of stalkers and/or HT. If I were to try and rebalance the PvZ midgame by tweaking infestors, my first choice would not be to adjust FG damage. I might look at the perma-snare ability of spammed FG, or the fact that it's not possible to dodge it like storm can be dodged. But FG damage just isn't a big deal; zealots and archons take forever to damage appreciably with FG. Infested terrans are a much bigger issue; 5 infestors can lob 40 infested terrans at a nexus, which can do over 11,000 damage before they despawn -- enough to kill the nexus, any cannons, workers, and even your whole army if you don't have splash damage when they hit. I'm talking about Destiny's playstyle here. On the blink nerf: So what if the flavor-of-the-month "best" blink build is unaffected by this nerf? Now protoss can't even represent the threat that they might attack prior to +2. The consequence is that zerg knows he can safely drone for longer. This also breaks one-base blink stalker play on XNC which is also popular. The blink nerf effectively rules out a wide variety of earlier-hitting blink-pressure builds, thereby making it easier for zergs to predict how long they can drone in safety. As for your PvP comments, I can tell you aren't a protoss and that you're talking out of your ass there. The consequences for PvP at all but the very highest levels of play are negligible. Really, this patch has hardly anything of real interest for NA and EU protoss, and certainly isn't a significant protoss buff.
Lol hypocrite much? While some of your points are true. You sound like as much of a child as that guy. If you think someone being a douche, replying in kind isnt the answer.
As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp.
Also lol at whoever said banes should be cheaper. If u want an awesome far too cheap unit, you have the roach But seriously, how cheaper? less gas? they also cost fuck all. Less min? Again fuck all. They dont even take up supply.
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On August 26 2011 04:38 Squigly wrote: As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp.
You show me how you avoid getting the two of the slowest units in the game EMPed... Immortal/HT was bad before and it will be bad after 1.4. The immortal buff doesn't suddenly make them good vs ghosts lol.
Nevertheless I expect more gateway/immortal/colossus-compositions, as the terran can't reasonably build both vikings and ghosts in high numbers early enough.
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On August 26 2011 04:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 04:38 Squigly wrote: As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp. You show me how you avoid getting the two of the slowest units in the game EMPed... Immortal/HT was bad before and it will be bad after 1.4. The immortal buff doesn't suddenly make them good vs ghosts lol. Nevertheless I expect more gateway/immortal/colossus-compositions, as the terran can't reasonably build both vikings and ghosts in high numbers early enough.
Agreed -- if you manage to get 5 colossus in your army, more isn't really useful. At that point it might be better to add immortals if you already have sufficient numbers of observers (i.e. because the terran isn't killing them). This kind of impact is what I mean by "minor buff" -- immortals are now a better choice in a lategame circumstance that I rarely see in pro PvT matches. In the common case most of the game is spent struggling to maintain that 5 colossus count while keeping sufficient observers on the field.
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protoss era incoming
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Barracks change is imo to give P +5sec vs banshees and another +5 sec vs the double rax follow up in the 1/1/1 allin (go 1/1/1 then add 2rax). I also think that every little bit can hellp vs 2rax, because I don't see 2rax (in TvZ) having either the coinflip character of other superearly pushes, nor the backfiring of an allin build. I like it
Hellion Prigniter change... Hm, I don't know about that. Maybe a bit premature, yet I think it might have less of an impact on ZvT is one might think (just consider TLO is already not using prigniter in mech play, because zerglings will die to either anyway to 10usual hellions or sieged tanks), so I guess this will have more of an impact on TvT... Maybe to make Tank/Marine equal to Mech??? I guess we will have to wait and see how it turns out.
Immortal and Wap Prism Pretty much exactly what I think had to be done. Better Immortals vs 1/1/1 AND finally making the warp prism a little tougher, so drop harrass doesn't happen with a paperplane now...
Seeker Missile Let's wait if it gets useful and maybe even OP in the latgame if you can mass up Ravens...
Mohtership Great that they finally try to fix the lagbug... Little buff in movement is OK, I think. It was always too clumpy in my eyes...
Stalker Yeah, can I cross of blink allin from my "what protoss can do of 1base" list of a thousand and one cheeses now? But I guess this will mostly affect PvP and in that way further strengthen the robo. Also I think with the Archon buff, the twilight techroute seemed just superior to robo in a lot of cases (apart from observers ofc). So I think this is OK. (though I would have liked a small stalker nerf, at least move 1-2dmg to the +armored section... Might have made hydras more worth playing)
Ultralisk Did it really happen? I guess every zerg in the world has waited for something like this since the beta... "go hive---wait---go ultra den---wait---go ultras... hold out a little longer... PLEASE... yeah now Im dead with 6ultras in production which will spawn from everywhere to get picked apart from everything one by one..." Also with the Infestor nerf, the Ultra needed a buff, as it is completly unplayable in any matchup without infestor support right now...
Overseer Yes, finally... As the Overseer was concipated as a caster, but it's spells just suck, it needed a change. Either in cost or in purpose. With it being only a anticloak unit right now, I think the costchange was the right one to go for. The contamination change... Well contaminate was bad and will stay bad, but the energy increase had to come, because else mass overseer for 50gas might have been an OP option...
Now the biggy: Infestor Hard, hard nerf... I don't know about that. Unstimmed marines with shield and medivac support will survive 2 fungals now... Maybe something had to be done, but Infestors recently went from hardly playable to powerful/fast to powerful/slow and now?
Allinall summary: Protoss rushes get weaker once again, while their endgame gets stronger once again (4gate nerf but Archon buff, Blink research nerf but Immortal/Warp Prism buff) Terran got only some adjustments in my eyes. Zerg got some long demanded changes (Ultralisk, Overseer), maybe to keep them a little more quite about the Infestornerf?
Opinion: I wish they had nerfed the Infestor but altered/buffed the hydralisk, so the hydralisk could finally overtake it's designed role from the Infestor: background damage dealer. Terrans Snipe Micro should have become slightly easier in my eyes, rather then hardbuffing the Missile... I think Terran has enough options for everything without a strong HSM, rather emphazise what they got! For Protoss: I love the Robobuffs for the lower tier units, but I think they should have nerfed the colossus a little bit with this, because the robotech might go from: "I want colossi and observer" to: "I want harass/observer/immortals but you still have to consider that I still will have a free win if you don't have corruptor/vikings if I go colossi" (especially as the infestor nerf will passivebuff colossi in PvZ... And I really don't think colossi needed a buff)
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On August 26 2011 03:59 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them? I think thats race design though... I do guess its true in some ways however...
Yes it's race design. But (like every season) we have 5 Terrans in the top 8 of the GSL... One could argue that at the highest level of play Terran might be the easiest race (notice: easiest, not strongest!)
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On August 25 2011 19:26 Scheme wrote: 3 BFH still one shot workers tho, so no difference in harassement! No 2 bfh would one short workers.
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I love all the changes except 5 sec more on rax (wtf) and immortal range. Those buggers already ass rape face. DPS of sieged tanks, that can move, hard to kill, and attack faster sans splash.
No thank you on the range =(
Ohhhh and oohhh cheaper overseers is gay IMO. Already hard to clear the overlords around... now cloakshees have no place what so ever in TvZ and they can get them MUCH much easier, without worrying about gas cost.
un fun =(
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