I present here a small breakdown of the changes and their possible reasonings and what implications they might have. I wish to open a discussion on these, and hopefully get as many thoughts down on text as possible. Disclaimer: I am a Zerg player primarily, so I might understand many of the balance changes from a zerg point of view. I will try to see past this but I am only human.
Specifically, the Balance changes.
General
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. Implications and reasoning: I am not entirely sure why this change is being made. It will make it even harder to gain any scouting information in the early game by poking up the ramp with a cheap unit, and the early stages of the game are already by far the most fragile where scouting info is oh so important. In addition, agressive pushes up the ramp of a defender will be severly weakened by this, as e.g. a stalker will now be able to shoot a hydralisk standing on the low ground without the hydralisk being able to shoot back via a ramp spotter; only an air unit can provide the vision now. Edit; In addition, blinking and warping in past forcefields will be hindered now, allowing the PvP match to continue its evolution.
PROTOSS
Immortal: Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Implications and reasoning: In my opinion a change that will make the immortal more useful in a protoss army mix. As it is, the immortal is a powerunit - yet in order to be in range of the enemy, it needs to stand in front of the stalkers to even be in proper range, making it easier to target down. This small range increase should help. Edited; Combined with all the other changes, the PvP matchup could evolve beyond pure blinkstalker agression.
Mothership: Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375. Implications and reasoning: Special tactics! Motherships are rarely seen, this will make the unit slightly more used without nessecarily making it super overpowered. The road to a dedicated air build is still paved with difficulties for a protoss, so I think this will reward this just a little bit more.
The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online. Implications and reasoning: This one is fairly selfexplanatory.
Stalker: Blink research time increased from 110 to 140. Implications and reasoning: Recently, we have seen many protosses decimate especially zerg armies with blink stalker micro. While of course good micro should be rewarded, I have seen blinkstalkers be microed in stalker vs roach battles where the stalkers killed an equal amount of roaches without sustaining any casualties at all. This change will not make blinkstalkers any weaker, but it will give the zerg those additional 20 seconds (or 30 seconds w/o chronoboost) to scout and react the twilight council research. Edit; In PvP the implications are obviously stronger than in other matchups, as the current metagame often features blink contains while expanding. Such a contain will be vulnerable to a counterattack now, and in addition the vision range on ramps will make it harder to blink into a main base.
Warp Prism: Shields increased from 40 to 100. Implications and reasoning: Good change to encourage more drop play by protoss. I have often been surprised at how fast a queen takes out a warp prism.
TERRAN
Barracks: Build time increased from 60 to 65. Implications and reasoning: Again a change I am slightly puzzled by. I guess the primary implications here are; +5 seconds to orbital command being up. +5 seconds for enemies to keep their worker alive inside the terran base. 2 x +5 seconds added to 2 barracks pressure vs zergs. Personally I have seen far too many proxy 11/11 2-rax pull 7-8 SCV's and put up bunkers all over the place, and on those short maps its so frustratingly hard to stop. I welcome the additional 5 seconds to prep defenses.
Hellion: Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. Implications and reasoning: I want to really throw my hat into the air and sing on this one (again, my zerg bias arises here, and I apologise). BFH is an upgrade that almost cannot NOT pay for itself, if you understand me. Zergs relinquish map control for at least the time until mutalisks come out, and for the very scouting dependant and reactive race this is so crucial. BFH completely hard-hardcounters zerglings, and while they will still be a counter to zerglings after this it will not completely nullify zerglingbased armies the way they do it at the moment. In addition, I feel there has been too much onesided focus on upgrading blue flame and then dropping them into the main along with some marines. I have experienced games where I saw it coming from miles away, had roaches ready as well as speedzerglings, hade spine crawlers in place, and STILL the terran carried on with the attack and even managed to do significant drone damage simply because hellions are faster than anything except zerglings, and those they completely roast. The hellion will still be a great harassing unit, but hopefully the whole "whoops 2 hellions just cleaned out your mineral line at your 4th base" will stop now. I would've welcomed a reduce in the splash ratio more than this direct damage nerf though, because once hellions are in a mineral line, damage will still happen since you simply cannot retreat your workers... Edit; However, it will take 3 shots now for a hellion to kill a worker, effectively adding +50% to your reaction time.
Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. Implications and reasoning: Now this one is interesting. HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, but I cant help feel like the raven spells serve the same purpose. Turret; do damage. PDD: avoid damage. Seeker: do splash damage. Tanks already serve as splash on the ground, and thors as splash in the air. I am not sure if HSM will see more use after this, to be honest - its a very large investment for a spell that you might have included in your army by other means, anyway.
ZERG
Infestor: Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored). Implications and reasoning: I think we had all seen this coming. I was thinking that infestors might get a "HT nerf", by removing pathogen glands. Infestors are so strong because they spawn and can imidiately fungal, so creating 6+ infestors at once is not really a danger. The damage nerf will make big army balls just slightly more durable, and make roach/infestor battles depend just slightly more on the roach upgrades and armycontrol. I think this is good for the zerg playstyle, and infestors are still very powerful for sure.
Update: Infestor: Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units. Implications and reasoning: Okay. Neural parasite was strong. And yes, I am going to be zerg biased now, but this change will literally leave zerg with no answer to massive mech play by terrans (no NP on thors), and standard deathballs of colossi will once again be incredibly scary - as will chargelot/archon mixes that already do very well against our shortrage bionic armies. I am not sure what blizzard has been eating, but I sincerely hope something will be given to zerg to compensate for this, as NP is literally the only answer I can think of to mass zealot/archon/HT armies, just to give an example. In addition a big blow to ling/infestor style - forcefield + colossi will simply be the go-to build vs zerg again now. Terran and especially protoss should clap their hands seeing this.
Overseer: Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50. Implications and reasoning: Yay! 1: Detection is cheaper. I have seen SO many protoss try out new styles as of late, one of the more popular being blinkstalker/DT, where the stalkers only job is to snipe the overseer. 2: For zergs to get a fast scout, they must first morph lair, and THEN morph overlord speed. Now, there is the option of delaying ovie speed slightly and morph a nearby overlord to an overseer for a cheaper cost and a faster scout.
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125. Implications and reasoning: Contaminate is so strong especially in ZvZ. I think this is completely justified.
Ultralisk: Build time decreased from 70 to 55. Implications and reasoning: Hooray! Ultralisks are more easily accesable now. The brood lord is so much better in terms of accesability and army compatibility at the current metagame that I actually see terrans start to add vikings blindly past the 16-17 minutes in the ZvT's I play - simply because they know it will be brood lords. Now by making ultralisks a bit more appealing, we might see terrans be more reluctant to do this. What still worries me, however, is that ghosts are fairly strong vs both brood lords and ultralisks alike.
Edit: Other changes of note:
Neural Parasited units will now retain their weapons upgrades. This will make NP'ed colossi and tanks / thors alot more powerful, and should cause protoss to think twice before upgrading to +3 attack before even starting armor level 1. (Actually saw this in the patch, just completely forgot to include it - cheers for pointing this out).
Edit number 2: But since massive units such as colossi are now going to be immune to neural parasite, this change is all but inconsequential.
Edit number 3: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265770 Massive unit change reverted, but range nerfed from 9 to 7. The discussion is more or less covered in this thread, in my opinion, and I am sorry but I simply do not have the time to write a good sum-up of it right now.
Guardian Shield change: I redirect you to This Post, which seems to sum this up way better than I could
Overall thoughts:
I think this patch looks very promising. Some of the core "imbalances" currently in the game will be adressed: the brute dominance of infestors in zerg armies, the total insanity that is blue flame hellions, and finally blink research time vs 'blink-defense-research-time' is adressed which I like especially in relation to ZvP.
In addition, all 3 races gain easier access to some of the tech that is not seen as often; motherships, raven/HSM and ultralisks. It will provide more interesting games on the daily ladders, and it will surely improve the quality of pro games. Especially terran play seems very rigid to me: once the "fotm" strategy comes up everybody plays it and sticks to that and that alone.
i think the vision range change for the uphill is to give defenders a further advantage. probably they feel that people defending from the high ground don't have enough advantage...
They should at least decrease the time and/or cost of the the infernal preigniter.
My tankhellionviking-build work well enough for me and now that the damage decrease and ultras build-time increase I might have a hard time, grrr... The inferfestor nerf is great! More than half of the additional damage decrease. Now it'll take three FG's to take down a full hp tank.
I am Z and I think the Infestor nerf is okay, but the damage reduce from nearly 49damage to 40 is a little (just a tiny bit) too much, it should have been reduced to like 42-43. But okay I still can understand the fact, that FG is way to powerfull!
From a Protoss perspective, the patch is excellent. It further nerfs 4gate in PvP by making it harder to warp over FF as stated previously, so we will see the matchup continue evolving. It also nerfs blink timings which was an important part in modern PvP, but I don't think it means that everyone will go back to collosus wars. The inmortal buff makes it much more useful in a stalker ball and as a standalone unit, and the mothership acceleration buff is totally deserved. I really hope that we will see more Warp Prism usage too, not only for drops but as a portable reinforcement pylon and to protect those HT VIPs from mass EMP usage.
BFH nerf is more than deserved too, a unit that cost no gas can't do such insane splash damage to both workers and the mineral sinks of Z and P (lings and zealots). Also all earlier T pushes are a tiny bit delayed by the rax build time increase, and maybe we will see more Raven usage (although I don't see the Raven as "weak" by all means).
The overseer changes are welcome, it's good that it's cheaper but that contaminate costs more to compensate. Infestor nerf was a must IMO, and ultralisk buff makes zerg lategame more interesting.
On August 25 2011 19:31 Taf the Ghost wrote: The seeker missile change makes it so pretty much only Zerglings & Mutalisks can outrun them. They're now faster than workers.
The first TvZ that has a quick Seeker Missile over Cloak, can show what the nasty things Seeker Missile can do to a drone line.
If a slow raven makes it in and out of a drone line the zerg has bigger problems. Ravens in the core army will be much better now. Raven harass still silly
the Immortal +1 range and the blink 30+ seconds research is going to fuck PvP, I don't see both going through the PTR.
they should have buffed phoenix graviton beam instead of the immortal, making graviton beam 25 energy vs light units, it would make phoenix a great harras and counter to the 1-1-1, it would not make hydras useless since you need 1 phoenix for each hydra (energy is not a problem) while you need 1 phoenix for each 3-4 marines (energy IS a problem).
Will definitely have to agree with MartynX, a nice tweak in that regard, but as you mention, it will make scouting a bit harder.
In regard to the seeker missile upgrade, you can do mineral line seeker harass (a bit like the HT drop, just without the drop ) This will make it more effective, because it will be a bit harder to pull probes/drones/scvs.
blink change doesn't affect pvz at all. As an avid fan of blinkstalker play vs zerg, waiting 20sec more in pvz for blink is not going to affect me at all. The trouble is they nerfed blink stalker play in pvp BADLY. None will be opening blink anymore, as the timing will give your opponent one more immortal, or dts. Combined with the immortal buff, this is awful for pvp. It will be robo vs robo all the way, all the time.
On August 25 2011 19:46 AA.spoon wrote: blink change doesn't affect pvz at all. As an avid fan of blinkstalker play vs zerg, waiting 20sec more in pvz for blink is not going to affect me at all. The trouble is they nerfed blink stalker play in pvp BADLY. None will be opening blink anymore, as the timing will give your opponent one more immortal, or dts. Combined with the immortal buff, this is awful for pvp. It will be robo vs robo all the way, all the time.
I'm not convinced that this is bad, though.
We've seen that good observer + blink micro can contain a colossus-rusher on one base until an expansion has kicked in. Best case scenario is, that one base colossus won't be safe vs robo into TC and that we see immortal/stalker vs immortal/stalker while both transition into chargelots/archons. This is pretty much what PvP "should" look like in my opinion. I think the robo + TC doesn't get affected much by the blink nerf, and colossus rushing isn't stronger now either.
EDIT: as others have mentioned, rushing colossus makes you vulnerable vs stargate as well; I don't think blink is dead at all, it's just that TC into robo will be much less viable compared to robo into TC
I'm not sure you fully understood the implications of the ramp vision change, the immortal change and the blink change in PvP. Otherwise, decent breakdown.
On August 25 2011 19:46 AA.spoon wrote: blink change doesn't affect pvz at all. As an avid fan of blinkstalker play vs zerg, waiting 20sec more in pvz for blink is not going to affect me at all. The trouble is they nerfed blink stalker play in pvp BADLY. None will be opening blink anymore, as the timing will give your opponent one more immortal, or dts. Combined with the immortal buff, this is awful for pvp. It will be robo vs robo all the way, all the time.
Thats somehow true, but if more people opens robo, we may see more stargate play and more guessing/mindgames(since its impisiible to scout in pvp)
Well Personally I am glad hellions got nerfed THANKS KOREANS! I think instead of making ultralisk take less time, they should run faster (about the same speed as lings) that way you can be like BW and actually have effective strong units that are fast instead of relying on the meatshield. Problem with a meatshield is that you need other units to DPS for you... If you only have lings they get in the way of ultralisk -.- Oh well maybe HoTS we get hydralisk that are much faster or at least stronger (bulkier in health would be nice).
This is going to be interesting. I wonder if all these will get past the PTR. I think BFH if were nerfed I think the price might need to be lower with it. Just because 150 gas is a lot if it isn't as good as it once was. Shall be interesting.
On August 25 2011 19:57 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm not sure you fully understood the implications of the ramp vision change, the immortal change and the blink change in PvP. Otherwise, decent breakdown.
If you would read the posts at all that were made before you maybe you would understand. The reason to nerf vision range is because you could still pull of a agressive 4 gate over a defensive protoss that is FF his ramp.You could warp in things behind the FF and get instant vision up the ramp to warp in more on top of it,or you could blink a stalker behind the FF and get vision.Either way its another 4 gate nerf to pvp imo.
protoss balls will be even easier to a move around now :D. Nerd immortal range down to 4, and introduce a buff to general player skill over time. Much more interesting dynamics that way.
I play toss.. but.. when people flame me on ladder, from now on theres no real comeback now..
Overseer: Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50. Implications and reasoning: Yay! 1: Detection is cheaper. I have seen SO many protoss try out new styles as of late, one of the more popular being blinkstalker/DT, where the stalkers only job is to snipe the overseer. 2: For zergs to get a fast scout, they must first morph lair, and THEN morph overlord speed. Now, there is the option of delaying ovie speed slightly and morph a nearby overlord to an overseer for a cheaper cost and a faster scout.
P likes to open early air against Z to secure third and to get map control. It's so beneficial to open air, as it forces Z to spend money on spores, evo, extra queens and so forth. It's almost impossible to have it not pay for itself now, unless:
Now upon scouting the gas timings indicating a SG opener, Z might be able to commit into Spire and just go contest air with corruptors, as detection gets that much cheaper, any DT surprise wouldn't catch Z off guard, and and if it is DTs, one could just simply spend the gas on Mutas, as the Blink research time nerf for TC play widens the window of opportunity.
If Z gets a timing window to work for this type of build, the metagame might change dramatically. It would become impossible to secure a third for P with air only, the colossus would be out of the picture for obvious reasons, and it would be easy to get a whole mapcontrol with speedlings on the ground.
Overall I like the patch notes, still I'm waiting for EMP to require research.
I'm not fully convinced that PvP will just be Robo vs. Robo, I can see some fine and viable Phoenix builds evolving - especially with Blink research time reduced.
On August 25 2011 20:06 Imalengrat wrote: This is going to be interesting. I wonder if all these will get past the PTR. I think BFH if were nerfed I think the price might need to be lower with it. Just because 150 gas is a lot if it isn't as good as it once was. Shall be interesting.
Why make it cost less, make hellions cost more! How does a vehicle which shoots napalm from its back in which the driver is smoking not cost any gas!
Unchanged probes before 2 fungals now 2 fungals. zealot before 5 fungals now 5 fungals. stalker before 4 fungals now 4 fungals. sentry before 3 fungals now 3 fungals. DT before 4 fungals now 4 fungals. HT before 3 fungals now 3 fungals.
Changed Void before 6 fungals now 7 fungals. Colossus before 6 fungals now 7 fungals. Phoenix before 4 fungals now 5 fungals. Carrier before 10 fungals now 12 fungals. Immortal before 7 fungals now 8 fungals. Archon before 10 fungals now 12 fungals.
Really hate the hellion nerf, it just feels like everytime terran find a way to use mech (siege tanks, thors, hellions), it gets smashed into the ground by Blizzard, like they only want terrans to go marine/tank and marine/marauder. Hellions weren't even overpowered aside from arguably TvT, which doesn't really matter, just means the TvT meta-game shifts. They were just usable in TvZ and TvP, and now their only use is (once again) getting out a couple of hellions early on against zerg and "hoping your BFH drop does good damage". Oh, btw, what people "hope" will change with this change is that you won't suddenly lose 30 workers if you miscontrol during a hellion drop, well, you still will, sorry. This just means they are simply no longer viable units in your main army. Oh well, guess it's back to hating all terran matchups as they're back to turtling only
As a Zerg player, Immortals and Ravens suddenly scare the hell out of me. Immortal timing pushes were already something to be super scared of if you went roaches... Them being able to hide behind stalkers/zealots/ffs and decimate roaches is just lethal.
As for the raven, I don't think this game would have Zerg/Toss players if you were to tell BW players that Terran got a reaver mixed with a defiler that could fly and detect cloaked units.
This is not a nerf to the contaminate ability, at least not entirely. Where before you had to spend 50/100 for 1 Overseer with 75 energy contaminates, now you can spend 100/100 for 2 overseers with 125 energy contaminates each. That means that the spell is more gas efficient and less mineral efficient but with a longer initial downtime.
Here is an example: If you had a build where you wanted 4 overseers to contaminate harass then that would have cost you 200/400 and you would get 8 casts per 150 energy. And now, if you spend the same gas, it is 400/400 but you get 8 overseers and therefore 8 casts per 125 energy. So you gain more casts per minute per gas.
I don't know if this makes sense or is worth mentioning. Hopefully this helps somebody.
I like the sound of the changes overall, being an avid warp prism user and starting to try more late game motherships, I'm loving those changes. Blink is understandable but annoying, and the immortal change I'm fine with personally (from a PvP stand-point)
I don't really understand the barracks build time change, I don't play TvZ so I can't really comment on that. Overseer change is definitely good, I was thinking either cheapen the overseer or move overlord speed to hatch tech, this works great - along with the contaminate change for obvious reasons
Every thing else I'm fine with basically, see how it works out when we get to play it
As for vision range up ramps, I'm not sure I exactly understand how this works -
Lets say the red line is the limit of vision from the bottom of the ramp as it is, and if you go beyond that line, you can see the high ground as you normally would. Does this change mean that now that line is moved down the ramp towards the yellow line?
So for example, a forcefield at the bottom of the ramp means that someone cannot warp in or blink above the forcefield anymore, because the yellow line is in place instead of the red?
I am really excited about many of the changes here. The Blue Flame upgrade was something I was becoming increasingly annoyed about. I think this is a good change, as it still gives a healthy damage bonus which makes them still very useful units, but it doesn't make the use of light ground units completely useless in army vs army scenarios like it was becoming.
I'm personally happiest about the Immortal range buff... This was something that was absolutely needed... Especially since Marauders have a range of 6. Going Immortals was pretty much always useless as they would never get in range to attack the unit they want to attack (since if they move up the marines just drop the Immortal like it's nothing).
Infestor nerf was absolutely needed and I think pretty well everyone agreed on that... They were just a little too powerful.
Warp Prism buff also has many implications as well, as you are no longer flying in the "paper plane" to try and do a drop.
All in all, as a Protoss I am extremely happy with these changes.
Wow huge buff to the overseer. Great for Zergs I guess.
Zerg early game scouting heavily depends on running up the enemy ramp to see what's there. It's vital to be able to do that and the vision decrease will change the zerg early game somewhat i think. This will force zergs to make more than just 2 or 4 initial lings and then just power drone for 5 min because you'll need more lings to scout up the ramp now (less vision means they will get killed more easily right?). Smart move if this was the intention because I always found it odd that Zerg could survive the first 6 min with like only 2 lings in some cases.
I don't mind the infestor nerf but find it an odd choice. In my opinion the point of FG is more to keep the units immobile, especially in big engagements against Toss. In fact I miss the days where fungals lasted 8 seconds, nevermind the old dps buff, I want those blink Stalkers to sit tight for as long as possible. The damage is important but less so than the trapping effect in my opinion. Of course the dps buff was great for mineral line harras.
Ultralisk buff is a bit unreasonable and i'm a Zerg. Every time I get 5 or 6 Ultra's I usually dominate the engagments (I'm only Platinum btw). They are so strong it's ridiculous sometimes. This will make Ultras ALOT more common, I can't wait to see the community's reaction to this if it makes it into the game.
Hurray for Toss changes though because I think they favorably impact units that are not used enough and also help us non-tosses against a very (maybe too much) strong tactic of Blink.
To be honest I don't think the changes to Terran are going to change anything although they make BFH less appealing, I don't think it's game changing for anyone since BFH still 3 shot workers.
On August 25 2011 19:57 blooblooblahblah wrote: I'm not sure you fully understood the implications of the ramp vision change, the immortal change and the blink change in PvP. Otherwise, decent breakdown.
If you would read the posts at all that were made before you maybe you would understand. The reason to nerf vision range is because you could still pull of a agressive 4 gate over a defensive protoss that is FF his ramp.You could warp in things behind the FF and get instant vision up the ramp to warp in more on top of it,or you could blink a stalker behind the FF and get vision.Either way its another 4 gate nerf to pvp imo.
I know tht? I dont get it. Did i say something wrong?
On August 25 2011 20:13 choopakabra wrote: Fungal is still strong PvZ:
Unchanged probes before 2 fungals now 2 fungals. zealot before 5 fungals now 5 fungals. stalker before 4 fungals now 4 fungals. sentry before 3 fungals now 3 fungals. DT before 4 fungals now 4 fungals. HT before 3 fungals now 3 fungals.
Changed Void before 6 fungals now 7 fungals. Colossus before 6 fungals now 7 fungals. Phoenix before 4 fungals now 5 fungals. Carrier before 10 fungals now 12 fungals. Immortal before 7 fungals now 8 fungals. Archon before 10 fungals now 12 fungals.
Thank you for the info. In any case I never really used FG to do damage to the big units anyways. Fungals for me have always been about keeping the army in place and as far as I know they still do that. Mind you one more fungal needed for killing Phoenixes is somewhat of a big deal in some cases.
The BF Hellion damage change vs light (8+6+10=24 changed to 8+6+5=19) implies: vs Marine (45hp): Need 3 hits instead of 2 vs Marine with shield (55hp): 3 hits (no change)
With this change, a marine with combat shield+stim can stim once and still need 3 Hellion hits before dying but right now you can only take 2 hits.
Hm I wonder what this means for TvT that seem to have shifted to Hellions instead of marines...?
I think the ramp vision change has been made for 2v2 , a p-z team could on "small" or "medium" sized maps 6-7p and cannon rush shared ramps , it was an unstopable push with lings spotting halfway up the ramp and cannons slowlypushing from bellow the ramp into ur mains.... or it might be to make it easier for P vs. roach rush.
On August 25 2011 20:13 Teiwaz wrote: Overall I like the patch notes, still I'm waiting for EMP to require research.
This would be accompanied by something like 125/50 or 150/75 cost to Ghosts. I'd rather have EMP be a spell that doesn't require research and still have Ghosts cost a ton.
The buffs that would come from making EMP a spell that requires research wouldn't be worth it IMO.
On August 25 2011 20:52 gejfsyd wrote: When will this patch come?
No one knows. These are just changes that are done on the test server (NA). Its not even certain that these changes will ever make through the balance tests.
There a a few changes which will change the game completely. 1. The reduced sight on a ramp. No blink over forcefields. 2. In ZvZ Zerglings will need 2 Fungals instead of one to be killed. So the Matchup will change a bit. 3. A proxy rax in ZvT will be less effective now. 4.in ZvP heavy roach play will get punished hard with immortals and their new range. 5. Ultraliks will be used more. 6.Hellions useless against armored units. 7.Contaminate even more senseless then it is. 8.In ZvT fungal against marine+medivac not so effective anymore cause marines have 55 hp with upgrade and 2 fungals do 60 dmg. Medivac will heal very fast.
I really like all the changes, they are still subject to changes, especially Ultralisk spawn times. That feels more experimental than the rest.
Hellions need something to do besides Blue-Flame, nerf the speed and add a speed upgrade? Something like that, its too easy to add blue-flame and drop them in the opponent's base and cause obseen damage.
Infestors remain the same problem, its not the damage though that is its own problem, should slow the trapped troops not freeze them, that's why its overpowered.
I'll be honest though, I don't like how they have kept on nerfing the Barracks and Reapers, its within tolerable for now but really strikes a sore spot for Terrans. It aint too much of a deal though. Just wish they would have nerfed the Tech Lab to require supply depot instead, Barracks before supply would make for a nice aggressive play, and to be honest the whole point of all this two rax pressure is to punish Hatchery first builds in the first place they are useless against spine crawlers and queens.
Woo no bad changes IMO in this patch: - Ultralisk play means terran players can use their strike cannons again ^^ - Immortal in line with stalkers means in can be microed out of battles easier and have an easier time targeting units such as siege tanks before it gets owned. However do realize that this means for optimal range the arch would be bigger with immortal and stalker together, and thus needs a bigger fighting ground and not to engage in smaller battle fields.
you didnt understand what I said obviously. lets break it down: Prepatch: 3 bfh one shot workers Post patch: 3 bfh one shot workers
People tend to drop 4 hellions anyway, so i dont think it i will make a huge difference. the key here is 3 upgraded blue flame hellions( nothing mentioned about un-upgraded), 1 shot workers either way.
I wonder how the standard 12 rax 13 gas 15 orbital will change with the patch. Will it still be 15 orbital with ~5s idle time on the CC or change to a 16(17 with marine) orbital timing with an additional scv squeezed in.
Great blue flame splash is what I know percent based so scv's on the sides will be hurt much much less, of course a straight line will still be 3 shooted :3 but will take much longer time to clear out a whole mineral line.
On August 25 2011 20:58 robbryjo wrote: There a a few changes which will change the game completely. 1. The reduced sight on a ramp. No blink over forcefields. 2. In ZvZ Zerglings will need 2 Fungals instead of one to be killed. So the Matchup will change a bit. 3. A proxy rax in ZvT will be less effective now. 4.in ZvP heavy roach play will get punished hard with immortals and their new range. 5. Ultraliks will be used more. 6.Hellions useless against armored units. 7.Contaminate even more senseless then it is. 8.In ZvT fungal against marine+medivac not so effective anymore cause marines have 55 hp with upgrade and 2 fungals do 60 dmg. Medivac will heal very fast.
Don´t you guys understand that 2 BFH can 1 shot a worker now ? After the patch it won´t work anymore that´s the thing. Now you need 3 BFH or 3 none BFH to 1 shot workers BFH upgrade almost useless right now. It´s good against lings and zealots though but in general it isn´t that good anymore.
Very strange that T have STILL few possibilities to win a game (non TvT). I was expecting to see no more bunkers at all and no more Hellions at all. Mabye to let us loose every game they should try to delete marines....
Hellion nerf was needed because they were too good full stop. Now, you have to commit a weapons upgrade to make them better. However, I still think they will be too good TvZ. We have seen from players like MMA and MVP that hellions give too much map control and pose such a huge threat to the zerg, that the threat of the hellion alone can contain the Zerg to 2 bases. MVP double expanded and got a 4th at 14 minutes. Boxer did a marine hellion elevator. MMA did a quick tank push whilst dropping the main. Some players massed even more hellions and ran past the spine crawlers and toasted the mineral line anyway. Zerg cannot scout these responses at all and have to prepare to absolutely everything. The timing window needed to exploit a hellion opening is tiny and Terran expansions are hardly an investment because they pay for themselves after 2 mules. The only problem with expansing early as Terran was the threat of the mutalisk. But if you take a third so early that it is imperious to any aggression from zerg when mutas finally arrive, then you are miles ahead. Basically, a Zerg will always be behind against a double expanding Terran unless he knows exactly what the Terran is doing. This isn't bw where any Terran taking a fast third will die to 11 mutalisks any day of the week. Zerg just doesn't have any standard build that can make Terran scared. 1 bunker, a few turrets, a tank, and an ounce of multitasking ability is all that is needed to hold off nearly all Zerg attacks before broodlords.
The infestor nerf barely changes ZvP as nearly every Protoss unit takes the same amount of fungals to kill than before. The main job of fungal was to keep blink stalkers in their place and destroy sentries. It just makes infestors worse vs Terran which is fine.
The bad:
Immortal buff, Blink nerf, Barracks nerf.
Barracks nerf is as useless as the bunker nerf. 2 rax will still exist and all it does is make unneeded complications to the game, which are trivial at best. I would prefer Blizzard spend more time on big radical changes that are going to fix the games problems rather than small useless unimportant problems. The last bw patch had things as radical as changing the spawning pool cost from 150 minerals to 200 minerals.
Immortal buff and blink nerf as well as the ramp sight thing will possibly kill blink and 4 gate openings, leaving you with robo openings. Now, PvP will be decided on who gets the earlier and greedier robo rather than micro. Ok, I may be a bit harsh, but having immortals dominate early game PvP is asking the game to be a turtle fest, and with PvP, it is the worst.
What are the implications of the range decrease in PVP? Does this mean no more 4 gate? Does a perfect forcefield at bottom of ramp prevent warp ins even with a pylon right by the ramp?
On August 25 2011 21:23 Micket wrote: Immortal buff and blink nerf as well as the ramp sight thing will possibly kill blink and 4 gate openings, leaving you with robo openings. Now, PvP will be decided on who gets the earlier and greedier robo rather than micro. Ok, I may be a bit harsh, but having immortals dominate early game PvP is asking the game to be a turtle fest, and with PvP, it is the worst.
Theres one key difference between an immortal centric early game vs the blink stalker focused game we have now: immortals are slow, and cannot be easily reinforced. They are great defensively, but still are not as good on offense early. That means... someone might actually be able to expand in a PvP without getting timing attacked to death! (GASP!) I don't think anyone can honestly say that they're happy with the current state of PvP. Also, if everyone starts doing robo openers, stargate openers can become viable. Overall, i've got high hopes for the changes to PvP with this patch.
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. [...] e.g. a stalker will now be able to shoot a hydralisk standing on the low ground without the hydralisk being able to shoot back via a ramp spotter; only an air unit can provide the vision now.
The vision range got only decreased by 1. How often are you fighting at the edge of vision right now?
Btw. I'm still not sure if that change means a) How far you see up a ramp when you are on the low ground (affecting warp ins on the ramp) b) How far you see into a base when you stand on the ramp (affecting scouting) c) Both
Infestor nerf seems kind of weak tbh, would've rather see them remove the pathogen glands (spelling) then removing 16% dmg. However i guess rather nerf than buff!
I present here a small breakdown of the changes and their possible reasonings and what implications they might have. I wish to open a discussion on these, and hopefully get as many thoughts down on text as possible. Disclaimer: I am a Zerg player primarily, so I might understand many of the balance changes from a zerg point of view. I will try to see past this but I am only human.
Specifically, the Balance changes.
General
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. Implications and reasoning: I am not entirely sure why this change is being made. It will make it even harder to gain any scouting information in the early game by poking up the ramp with a cheap unit, and the early stages of the game are already by far the most fragile where scouting info is oh so important. In addition, agressive pushes up the ramp of a defender will be severly weakened by this, as e.g. a stalker will now be able to shoot a hydralisk standing on the low ground without the hydralisk being able to shoot back via a ramp spotter; only an air unit can provide the vision now.
PROTOSS
Immortal: Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Implications and reasoning: In my opinion a change that will make the immortal more useful in a protoss army mix. As it is, the immortal is a powerunit - yet in order to be in range of the enemy, it needs to stand in front of the stalkers to even be in proper range, making it easier to target down. This small range increase should help.
Mothership: Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375. Implications and reasoning: Special tactics! Motherships are rarely seen, this will make the unit slightly more used without nessecarily making it super overpowered. The road to a dedicated air build is still paved with difficulties for a protoss, so I think this will reward this just a little bit more.
The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online. Implications and reasoning: This one is fairly selfexplanatory.
Stalker: Blink research time increased from 110 to 140. Implications and reasoning: Recently, we have seen many protosses decimate especially zerg armies with blink stalker micro. While of course good micro should be rewarded, I have seen blinkstalkers be microed in stalker vs roach battles where the stalkers killed an equal amount of roaches without sustaining any casualties at all. This change will not make blinkstalkers any weaker, but it will give the zerg those additional 20 seconds (or 30 seconds w/o chronoboost) to scout and react the twilight council research.
Warp Prism: Shields increased from 40 to 100. Implications and reasoning: Good change to encourage more drop play by protoss. I have often been surprised at how fast a queen takes out a warp prism.
TERRAN
Barracks: Build time increased from 60 to 65. Implications and reasoning: Again a change I am slightly puzzled by. I guess the primary implications here are; +5 seconds to orbital command being up. +5 seconds for enemies to keep their worker alive inside the terran base. 2 x +5 seconds added to 2 barracks pressure vs zergs. Personally I have seen far too many proxy 11/11 2-rax pull 7-8 SCV's and put up bunkers all over the place, and on those short maps its so frustratingly hard to stop. I welcome the additional 5 seconds to prep defenses.
Hellion: Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. Implications and reasoning: I want to really throw my hat into the air and sing on this one (again, my zerg bias arises here, and I apologise). BFH is an upgrade that almost cannot NOT pay for itself, if you understand me. Zergs relinquish map control for at least the time until mutalisks come out, and for the very scouting dependant and reactive race this is so crucial. BFH completely hard-hardcounters zerglings, and while they will still be a counter to zerglings after this it will not completely nullify zerglingbased armies the way they do it at the moment. In addition, I feel there has been too much onesided focus on upgrading blue flame and then dropping them into the main along with some marines. I have experienced games where I saw it coming from miles away, had roaches ready as well as speedzerglings, hade spine crawlers in place, and STILL the terran carried on with the attack and even managed to do significant drone damage simply because hellions are faster than anything except zerglings, and those they completely roast. The hellion will still be a great harassing unit, but hopefully the whole "whoops 2 hellions just cleaned out your mineral line at your 4th base" will stop now. I would've welcomed a reduce in the splash ratio more than this direct damage nerf though, because once hellions are in a mineral line, damage will still happen since you simply cannot retreat your workers...
Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. Implications and reasoning: Now this one is interesting. HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, but I cant help feel like the raven spells serve the same purpose. Turret; do damage. PDD: avoid damage. Seeker: do splash damage. Tanks already serve as splash on the ground, and thors as splash in the air. I am not sure if HSM will see more use after this, to be honest - its a very large investment for a spell that you might have included in your army by other means, anyway.
ZERG
Infestor: Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored). Implications and reasoning: I think we had all seen this coming. I was thinking that infestors might get a "HT nerf", by removing pathogen glands. Infestors are so strong because they spawn and can imidiately fungal, so creating 6+ infestors at once is not really a danger. The damage nerf will make big army balls just slightly more durable, and make roach/infestor battles depend just slightly more on the roach upgrades and armycontrol. I think this is good for the zerg playstyle, and infestors are still very powerful for sure.
Overseer: Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50. Implications and reasoning: Yay! 1: Detection is cheaper. I have seen SO many protoss try out new styles as of late, one of the more popular being blinkstalker/DT, where the stalkers only job is to snipe the overseer. 2: For zergs to get a fast scout, they must first morph lair, and THEN morph overlord speed. Now, there is the option of delaying ovie speed slightly and morph a nearby overlord to an overseer for a cheaper cost and a faster scout.
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125. Implications and reasoning: Contaminate is so strong especially in ZvZ. I think this is completely justified.
Ultralisk: Build time decreased from 70 to 55. Implications and reasoning: Hooray! Ultralisks are more easily accesable now. The brood lord is so much better in terms of accesability and army compatibility at the current metagame that I actually see terrans start to add vikings blindly past the 16-17 minutes in the ZvT's I play - simply because they know it will be brood lords. Now by making ultralisks a bit more appealing, we might see terrans be more reluctant to do this. What still worries me, however, is that ghosts are fairly strong vs both brood lords and ultralisks alike.
Overall thoughts:
I think this patch looks very promising. Some of the core "imbalances" currently in the game will be adressed: the brute dominance of infestors in zerg armies, the total insanity that is blue flame hellions, and finally blink research time vs 'blink-defense-research-time' is adressed which I like especially in relation to ZvP.
In addition, all 3 races gain easier access to some of the tech that is not seen as often; motherships, raven/HSM and ultralisks. It will provide more interesting games on the daily ladders, and it will surely improve the quality of pro games. Especially terran play seems very rigid to me: once the "fotm" strategy comes up everybody plays it and sticks to that and that alone.
THE ORIGINAL POSTER MUST ADD GOOD COMMENTS TO THE ORIGINAL POST. AS OF NOW THE ORIGINAL POST IS REALLY REALLY BAD.
EDIT: I'm not saying these comments I wrote are the good ones that you should add to the OP. They are just my opinion
The Helion nerf was to nerf the harass aspect of the Helion. Now workers take three shots to kill, instead of two. Zerglings still die in two shots so it can't be that bad. Terran, equipped with mules, already mine minerals faster than other races. It does not need the best harass unit in the game to "get back on economy" because it's already got a good one.
Zerg needs a better mid-late game unit, but as of now the infestor is way too strong. I doubt this patch will fix much, but it's a good start. We don't want infestor to be useless.
I personally feel that increasing the feedback range for High Templar could fix the problem. Ghost EMP has a 10 range with no delay and an area of effect. Fungal growth has a range of 9 and an area of effect. Feedback, has 9 range and has to pick each unit because it only affects one unit you use it on. How is a Protoss supposed to feedback every ghost and infestor when the Terran and Zerg can just run in while spamming the area of effect attacks?
Many of the Protoss fixes, including immortal and ramp vision, will be beneficial for PvP. Often times, even in the pro games in GSL, blink stalkers beat a immortal stalker army, even though immortals should be the counter to stalkers.
Nothing new here.... terrans get nerfed while toss gets buffed and zerg gets minimal changes....
I honestly think toss has more options and potential than any other race yet they still get buffed...? I realize that it changes PvP but it is going to make toss that much harder to play against in a non mirror match, did they really need it?
The blue flame drop was a bit extreme in my opinion but I do think it needed to be decreased. I dont however like how it will now force a terran to go rax units w/ ghosts every single game against a toss now though. That was really the last viable tech option for dealing with zealots in TvP so now that muchup will be crap. They won't even need observers anymore(despite how unfair they are in the first place) to see what units we are making. The barracks build time increase was a bit silly too.... wtf?
Fungal nerf was totally needed and I'm fine with the ultra time decrease. I think its a pretty even and deserved change as far as zerg goes. Overall, not that happy with the patch, I think they could have done better honestly. It seems hasty and not fully researched but I guess thats what the PTR is for. I'm hoping to see some tweaks before it hits the ladder
On August 25 2011 21:00 aaycumi wrote: I really like all the changes, they are still subject to changes, especially Ultralisk spawn times. That feels more experimental than the rest.
Infestors remain the same problem, its not the damage though that is its own problem, should slow the trapped troops not freeze them, that's why its overpowered.
I agree with that part, the ultralisk buff is a bit extreme. Now a maxed zerg with a lot of ressources in the bank will now become a lot harder to deal with.
Regarding the the infestor part blizzard has the wrong approach, like you said, its the freeze that is causing the problem, i like your slowing idea, they should try that out. I would add a 2 sec delay for blink, so they can slow blink micro down but they need more fungals
On a side note, I wonder why there were now emp nerfs, I think emp is even more dangerous than storm and it does not require a research
so this hellion nerf actually leads to some questionable adjustments.
an un-upgraded BF hellion right now does 24 damage. this still 2 shots un-upgraded workers.
Now a un-upgraded BF hellion does 19 damage. this 3 shots all workers, BUT if the terran player can get an mech attack upgrade advantage over a protoss or zerg player, this become 20 damage, and this still 2 shots probes and drones, but NOT SCVs, since they have 45 hp.
What I'd like to see is a damage adjustment that encourages the player using blue flame hellions to get a fast +1 mech upgrade against all races. the base damage has to be 19 with blue flame, to avoid two shotting workers.
Now a un-upgraded BF hellion does 19 damage. this 3 shots all workers, BUT if the terran player can get an mech attack upgrade advantage over a protoss or zerg player, this become 20 damage, and this still 2 shots probes and drones, but NOT SCVs, since they have 45 hp.
What I'd like to see is a damage adjustment that encourages the player using blue flame hellions to get a fast +1 mech upgrade against all races. the base damage has to be 19 with blue flame, to avoid two shotting workers.
a +1 Mech will add 2 Damage to a Hellion vs Light, (base and bonus both get a +1 on an upgrade, i.e. 21 dmg per attack.)
basicially +1 mech weapons will allow T to still 2 shot P and T workers. but not SCV's.
On August 25 2011 20:13 choopakabra wrote: Fungal is still strong PvZ:
Unchanged probes before 2 fungals now 2 fungals. zealot before 5 fungals now 5 fungals. stalker before 4 fungals now 4 fungals. sentry before 3 fungals now 3 fungals. DT before 4 fungals now 4 fungals. HT before 3 fungals now 3 fungals.
Changed Void before 6 fungals now 7 fungals. Colossus before 6 fungals now 7 fungals. Phoenix before 4 fungals now 5 fungals. Carrier before 10 fungals now 12 fungals. Immortal before 7 fungals now 8 fungals. Archon before 10 fungals now 12 fungals.
This is true but it is EXTREMELY important to note that stalker is 160 "hp", fungal does 40, that's 4 fungals, but your chaining must be PERFECT. You cannot overlap at all or you need five. Also the reduction in damage is important if its actually a battle, as your stalkers will have more health for a longer period of time, or if less than the lethal number of fungals is cast, you'll also have more health. Fungal is still strong no doubt, but its a significant nerf.
I'm really surprised how much changed this PTR. Blink +30 seconds? That's a lot. BFH upgrade CUT IN HALF!? Are you kidding me blizzard? YES! Now they don't 2 shot workers without +1, what a sexy nerf ! Warp prism +60 shields? I can't see them being much better at shuttling HT as EMP + focus = dead just as fast, but definitely helpful if you fly behind your army, worrying about vikings, and def helpful for dropping. And the overseer cost change is pretty major as well. Adding +5 seconds to the barracks is a huge change just because you get extra scout time, and EVERYTHING terran does is delayed.
Now a un-upgraded BF hellion does 19 damage. this 3 shots all workers, BUT if the terran player can get an mech attack upgrade advantage over a protoss or zerg player, this become 20 damage, and this still 2 shots probes and drones, but NOT SCVs, since they have 45 hp.
What I'd like to see is a damage adjustment that encourages the player using blue flame hellions to get a fast +1 mech upgrade against all races. the base damage has to be 19 with blue flame, to avoid two shotting workers.
a +1 Mech will add 2 Damage to a Hellion vs Light, (base and bonus both get a +1 on an upgrade, i.e. 21 dmg per attack.)
basicially +1 mech weapons will allow T to still 2 shot P and T workers. but not SCV's.
I wonder if the reduced gas cost of overseers may make it worth it to keep overseers over expos in late game PvZ instead of spore crawlers. Overseers will now be cheaper (total resource cost, counting losing a drone) and cannot be attacked and taken down by a group of DTs.
On August 25 2011 21:55 CaptainCrush wrote: Nothing new here.... terrans get nerfed while toss gets buffed and zerg gets minimal changes....
Once terran representation drops below 50-60% in GSL, we can talk about that. Even disregarding that the facts are different and you are wrong - toss got two upgrades totally removed (flux vanes and amulet) and is overall the most nerfed race since release. zealot-buildtime: increased warpgate-research: increased flux vanes: removed amulet: removed blink-research: increased
Overall, I guess the immortal-range-upgrade is supposed to finally make the immortal vs roach battle immortal-favoured again - as it should be. We started out with roach-range 3 vs immortal-range 5....and it turned out that roaches would be too weak vs standard gateway timing pushs. Nevertheless the roach-range 4 vs immortal-range 5 made roaches more viable vs immortals than they should be. Therefore in PvZ this is pretty much a "back to square one" buff. I'm sure Blizz had thought about the 2 range difference before release, they always stated that they'd like to see the immortal as some kind of a "hard-to-kill backbone" in the toss army. Now they bring the original 2-range-difference back. From an overall design-point-of-view this makes quite much sense.
Now a un-upgraded BF hellion does 19 damage. this 3 shots all workers, BUT if the terran player can get an mech attack upgrade advantage over a protoss or zerg player, this become 20 damage, and this still 2 shots probes and drones, but NOT SCVs, since they have 45 hp.
What I'd like to see is a damage adjustment that encourages the player using blue flame hellions to get a fast +1 mech upgrade against all races. the base damage has to be 19 with blue flame, to avoid two shotting workers.
a +1 Mech will add 2 Damage to a Hellion vs Light, (base and bonus both get a +1 on an upgrade, i.e. 21 dmg per attack.)
basicially +1 mech weapons will allow T to still 2 shot P and T workers. but not SCV's.
until armor is factored in.
T workers are SCV, I believe you mean Z workers
Whoops.... :/ haha. we all make mistakes sometimes.
On August 25 2011 21:55 CaptainCrush wrote: Nothing new here.... terrans get nerfed while toss gets buffed and zerg gets minimal changes....
I honestly think toss has more options and potential than any other race yet they still get buffed...? I realize that it changes PvP but it is going to make toss that much harder to play against in a non mirror match, did they really need it?
Gold Brotoss having some thoughts on changes
Toss has more options and potential than any other race ?? Any war prism(The infamous Paper ship) drop (and warp-in) could be easily deflected by 2 Spores/turrets/canons in a mineral Line and since you can only fit 4 zealots in it, it wasn't very effective. You do little damage and pull your units out, or take the risk of losing 200 mins for the prism and 400 for the zealots, and you still haven't warped additionnal units. The higher shield will now make it much more efficient and make the speed pay for itself a lot more (And also actually protecting the high templars, not just try to not get them emp or fungaled)
I think that the immortal buff will let protoss be more aggressive in the early/mid game because you will be able to get more immortals firing at the same time and not force the protoss to get Colossi and range or high templar with storm, and that is what forces Protoss to be such a defensive race, they don't have mid-game efficient units except rushing for the higher tiers (colossi, HT, Archons whatever suits your style) As a P I'm looking forward to more macro based play in PvP both because of the immortal changes and the war prism will make the robo Much more valuable. And it maybe will be the opportunity to mass immortals a lot more wich in my opinion would make awesome battles^_^
As for the BFH, I think you can still achieve that 1 worker kill in two shots with the +1 vehicule weapons, so terran could possibly still harrass but they have to commit more time and money to do it as efficiently. Mothership is a little less vulnerable since it can finally dodge attacks to some extent, this change can also make Mass recall really awesome 1. Recall army into expansion 2.Move mothership to other expansion, kill the first with your army 3.recall in another expansion, Kill it 4.Retreat/fight 5.Rebuild and Kill ^^
I don't see the ultralisk build time having that much of an impact but the hunter seeker missile for the raven might change things a bit and make terrans finally use unit and upgrade possible in their arsenal
In short, I'm looking forward to it, is it just been anounced or will it be live soon ?
I don't understand the ramp change in combination with the overseer change. It may now be impossible to scout early game vs T as you can usually sneak a ling up, spot for example the block rax +2 factories. The overseer cost reduction should be overlord speed, that way Zerg scouting is better and it would encourage drop play vs forge fast expanding Protoss.
I think the Immortal change is fine the way the game works currently, but I sincerely hope Blizzard fixes Protoss to be less derp when LotV comes out. Repositioning should be more important for Protoss and the Immortal change goes against that.
Honestly I don't understand the barracks nerf, the threat of the marine SCV allin in TvT always forced you to either risk losing or make a bunker if you wanted to tech, now there is literally no way a hellion won't be out before they hit you so you can just skip the bunker i guess. All this does is nerf expansion builds since it will take longer for the 2nd and 3rd rax to get up, as any competent player never died to 2 rax builds anymore. I don't see the barracks change making live since its literally a step in the wrong direction.
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125. Implications and reasoning: Contaminate is so strong especially in ZvZ. I think this is completely justified.
This is total bs, the reason why this one was changed is because the overseer has change from 50/100 to 50/50 meaning 2 times the amount of overseers you would get for the same amount of gas. This means there is going to be mass contaminate and this is a nerf to stop it, although I still believe it is going to be OP after someone finds out a way to exploit this because 2 overseers worth of gas is now 4 overseers worth of gas and its just not going to be good for the game. The overseer should just be completely removed from the game and replaced with something else.
On August 25 2011 22:31 Laids wrote: I don't understand the ramp change in combination with the overseer change. It may now be impossible to scout early game vs T as you can usually sneak a ling up, spot for example the block rax +2 factories.
The ramp change is probably going to change the early game PvP 4 gate push or blink stalkers Now not only does it take more time to research blink, but it will be harder to poke at a ramp and blink on top of it because of the sight range. Also this changes the 4 gate because you'll need to go higher up the ramp to be able to warp-in units on the high ground with 1-2 proxy pylons on the low ground. as you said maybe lings proding at a base to get scouting will be less effective but besides that I don't see what other changes it brings, it still a nice change if it does affect the pushes metagame in PvP
yes BFH and unupgraded helions are basically equal in harassing
NOT
You don't seem to quite grasp what he's saying, currently 3 unupgraded hellions one-shot a worker line, post patch it takes 3 upgraded hellions to one-shot a worker line, so there is zero incentive to actually research the upgrade if your goal is to harrass (unless you're going full out mech). It will have little effect on the builds that only make hellions for early harrassing, instead of people dropping 4 BFH hellions you'll now drop 8 normal hellions into your base to maybe even greater effect. It only impacts mech builds that are already weak in every matchup but TvT.
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. Implications and reasoning: I am not entirely sure why this change is being made. It will make it even harder to gain any scouting information in the early game by poking up the ramp with a cheap unit, and the early stages of the game are already by far the most fragile where scouting info is oh so important. In addition, agressive pushes up the ramp of a defender will be severly weakened by this, as e.g. a stalker will now be able to shoot a hydralisk standing on the low ground without the hydralisk being able to shoot back via a ramp spotter; only an air unit can provide the vision now.
This is another pvp 4gate nerf, thank god. You can ff at bottom of ramp and not worry about them warping in over your FF to get vision of high ground, i think.
On August 25 2011 22:54 J.E.G. wrote: "Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location." From full patch notes.
Terran drop nerf?
was exactly is unloading units into a "dense area" do they mean like trying to drop marines on top of stacked siege tanks and don't forget the end of the sentence "if the original order was issued on a fog location", maybe you can still "drop in a dense area" when you have vision of it I didn't understand what this changes or mean at all....
was exactly is unloading units into a "dense area" do they mean like trying to drop marines on top of stacked siege tanks and don't forget the end of the sentence "if the original order was issued on a fog location", maybe you can still "drop in a dense area" when you have vision of it I didn't understand what this changes or mean at all....
Yeah I'm not entirely sure what they mean by this. My best bet is that if you queue up a drop in the fog of war and when it gets there it turns out you're dropping on top of a building the medivac will just go there but not unload? I'm not sure.
As someone who doesn't use Infestors heavily, I'm much happier for the buffs to zerg then the hit to infestors! :D Particularly the overseer, since I usually invest 100 gas on overlord speed for scouting. At least now I can test if 2 overseers is better then overlord speed for scouting.
If I did the math right it's just a 6-7 damage reduction on FG, which means it still kills marines in 2 fungals. So I guess Im still happy.
On August 25 2011 23:03 eYeball wrote: Except that you look at most of the balances as from a zerg perspective in all of the matchups I think it's kind of ok patch.
Ironically I think the ramp vision decrease might be one of the changes that affect me the most. I can't count how many times I've seen something that I shouldn't have with my zerglings because it was a little too close to the ramp.
I don't know how necessary it is for PvP but I hope the change doesn't make it to the real game.
I think the BFH change will help - but I'd have preferred they leave the dmg as is and just make it cost some gas. I personally feel that a mineral dump which a) does splash b) does bonus to light and therefore counters all other mineral dumps (Marines/Zealots/Lings/and other Hellions) in the game is a little one sided. Even just a +10 gas would be ok.. Just so that Terran can't mule like hell and dump it all into these speedy as hell terror on wheels...
On August 25 2011 19:46 AA.spoon wrote: blink change doesn't affect pvz at all. As an avid fan of blinkstalker play vs zerg, waiting 20sec more in pvz for blink is not going to affect me at all. The trouble is they nerfed blink stalker play in pvp BADLY. None will be opening blink anymore, as the timing will give your opponent one more immortal, or dts. Combined with the immortal buff, this is awful for pvp. It will be robo vs robo all the way, all the time.
Actually, this opens the door to stargate openings.
On August 25 2011 19:36 rpgalon wrote: the Immortal +1 range and the blink 30+ seconds research is going to fuck PvP, I don't see both going through the PTR.
they should have buffed phoenix graviton beam instead of the immortal, making graviton beam 25 energy vs light units, it would make phoenix a great harras and counter to the 1-1-1, it would not make hydras useless since you need 1 phoenix for each hydra (energy is not a problem) while you need 1 phoenix for each 3-4 marines (energy IS a problem).
But I have read in that recent interview that a harrass unit might be on the way for protoss in HotS. (This might be wrong, I'm just thinking ahead) So this kind of phoenix buff would make that addition pointless.
Overseer: Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50. Implications and reasoning: Yay! 1: Detection is cheaper. I have seen SO many protoss try out new styles as of late, one of the more popular being blinkstalker/DT, where the stalkers only job is to snipe the overseer. 2: For zergs to get a fast scout, they must first morph lair, and THEN morph overlord speed. Now, there is the option of delaying ovie speed slightly and morph a nearby overlord to an overseer for a cheaper cost and a faster scout.
P likes to open early air against Z to secure third and to get map control. It's so beneficial to open air, as it forces Z to spend money on spores, evo, extra queens and so forth. It's almost impossible to have it not pay for itself now, unless:
Now upon scouting the gas timings indicating a SG opener, Z might be able to commit into Spire and just go contest air with corruptors, as detection gets that much cheaper, any DT surprise wouldn't catch Z off guard, and and if it is DTs, one could just simply spend the gas on Mutas, as the Blink research time nerf for TC play widens the window of opportunity.
If Z gets a timing window to work for this type of build, the metagame might change dramatically. It would become impossible to secure a third for P with air only, the colossus would be out of the picture for obvious reasons, and it would be easy to get a whole mapcontrol with speedlings on the ground.
This has definately crossed my mind as a Zerg player. Currently, I often delay my lair because I know I need to spend money and drones on spore crawler defense more or less blindly (unless I am lucky enough to scout the stargate/DT with a sloverlord). But now, it will be viable to spend the money on more queens, and the drones will generate the income needed for a faster lair tech and a much faster ability to scout the entire protoss main. This will especially be SO important on the big maps (Tal'darim alter immidiately springs to mind, along with basically any map where close spawns makes for a hard third expansion).
On August 25 2011 20:16 iCanada wrote: As a Zerg player, Immortals and Ravens suddenly scare the hell out of me. Immortal timing pushes were already something to be super scared of if you went roaches... Them being able to hide behind stalkers/zealots/ffs and decimate roaches is just lethal.
As for the raven, I don't think this game would have Zerg/Toss players if you were to tell BW players that Terran got a reaver mixed with a defiler that could fly and detect cloaked units.
I almost always (no scratch that. I always!) get ling speed, and an army where alot of money has been sunk into immortals and sentries, roach/ling will still be able to hold their ground in the early stages of the game. It might be abit harder, I cant say for sure (btw range 5 immortals vs range 4 roaches could still /lol them in forcefields, its just easier now).
On August 25 2011 20:21 P00RKID wrote: Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
This is not a nerf to the contaminate ability, at least not entirely. Where before you had to spend 50/100 for 1 Overseer with 75 energy contaminates, now you can spend 100/100 for 2 overseers with 125 energy contaminates each. That means that the spell is more gas efficient and less mineral efficient but with a longer initial downtime.
Here is an example: If you had a build where you wanted 4 overseers to contaminate harass then that would have cost you 200/400 and you would get 8 casts per 150 energy. And now, if you spend the same gas, it is 400/400 but you get 8 overseers and therefore 8 casts per 125 energy. So you gain more casts per minute per gas.
I don't know if this makes sense or is worth mentioning. Hopefully this helps somebody.
Yes. I did wonder if I should mention it. At the very least, this change will ruin a fast lair into overseer into contaminate the infestation pit of the other zerg guy backed up with a big roach allin :p good of you to point out, though.
On August 25 2011 20:32 Psychobabas wrote: I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!! Do the math! :D
Have you done this calculation for armor upgraded zerglings? What about broodlings? Drones? Hydralisks? I cant see blizzard making a change that has no effect whatsoever if that is what you're implying
And @ all the guys who says BFH drops will still clear a mineral line; this is true. But same can be said for a baneling drop. At least now, we get those extra few seconds of reaction time before the entire mineral line is gone. Before, 2 BFH shots killed a worker, now its 3.
On August 25 2011 20:58 robbryjo wrote: There a a few changes which will change the game completely. 1. The reduced sight on a ramp. No blink over forcefields. 2. In ZvZ Zerglings will need 2 Fungals instead of one to be killed. So the Matchup will change a bit. 3. A proxy rax in ZvT will be less effective now. 4.in ZvP heavy roach play will get punished hard with immortals and their new range. 5. Ultraliks will be used more. 6.Hellions useless against armored units. 7.Contaminate even more senseless then it is. 8.In ZvT fungal against marine+medivac not so effective anymore cause marines have 55 hp with upgrade and 2 fungals do 60 dmg. Medivac will heal very fast.
While I agree with most of this, I completely dont understand your points 6 and 7. Hellions where always useless against armored units? Mass contaminate can already be evil in ZvZ, and with this change if contaminate was not increased in cost it would be pretty much the standard to go for a large mass contaminate / ling / roach... I think your point #8 is exactly what blizzard was aiming for (well, amongst others). Infestors where simply FAR too good vs marines. They will still be good, but now not as good. In addition, zerglings regenerate whilst in a fungal. A fungaled pack of fresh lings will exit the fungal with 1 hp each.
On August 25 2011 19:36 rpgalon wrote: the Immortal +1 range and the blink 30+ seconds research is going to fuck PvP, I don't see both going through the PTR.
they should have buffed phoenix graviton beam instead of the immortal, making graviton beam 25 energy vs light units, it would make phoenix a great harras and counter to the 1-1-1, it would not make hydras useless since you need 1 phoenix for each hydra (energy is not a problem) while you need 1 phoenix for each 3-4 marines (energy IS a problem).
But I have read in that recent interview that a harrass unit might be on the way for protoss in HotS. (This might be wrong, I'm just thinking ahead) So this kind of phoenix buff would make that addition pointless.
In addition, phoenix graviton beam being 25 energy would make them very cruel as mineral line wipers...
I'll try and sort through all the comments and edit the important things I missed into the original post - just posting them here also incase someone doesnt re-read the OP
The effect is limited to ranged attacks; splash attacks are not subject to the reduction.
Certain units, most notably Colossi and Siege Tanks, completely ignore Guardian Shield.
However, hidden among the new PTR notes (where it is interestingly classified as a bug fix rather than a buff--I guess certain units were never meant to bypass the shield) is this little gem:
Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack.
This might seem minor, but it is actually pretty huge in a couple of situations.
First, Zealots and Stalkers with Guardian shield protection will now take 7 Colossi shots to bring down rather than 6. This is pretty substantial, as it means that 3 Colossi (generally considered a critical mass number at which Gateway armies become nearly useless except to shield Colossi, which leads to "War of the Worlds" syndrome in lategame PvP) will no longer 2 shot groups of Zealots and Stalkers.
Second, Guardian shield is the only damage-reducing effect in the game that stacks with The Immortals Hardened Shield. Immortals protected by GS take a maximum of 8 damage per attacks. This means that it now takes Tanks 12 shots to get through the hardened shield rather than 10, and it takes Colossi 6 shots rather than 5.
When combined with its improved range, it should now be considerably easier to get an Immortal close to the P and T siege units in order to bring them down (which was, after all, the role it was designed for).
I believe that this will help enormously with War of the Worlds in PvP, especially now that prism-dropping in your opponent's base is very viable. Opponents will need more Colossi before they hit the critical mass needed to melt Gateway armies, and getting your Immortals close to kill those Colossi will be much easier.
I think it will also help a lot with 1/1/1 in PvT. For all that people bitch about Banshees, there's a reason that 1/1/1's vary hugely in what exact air support units they get (some get Ravens and Banshees, some just Banshees, some Cloakshees), but every single version includes a Siege Tanks. The attack just isn't as scary without it. Now that Siege Tanks deal less damage to Immortals (and the surrounding splash also deals less damage to the Gateway units) and Immortals have longer range, that Tank is a bit less scary.
Immortal+GS will now hardcounter Stalkers incredibly hard. 4-gate is now much, much easier to hold off, because they can't get vision if you FF the bottom of your ramp, and if you get an Immortal out you will wreck them.
All this combined with Blink coming later makes me think PvP is going to standardize around Robo-expand builds in the early game. But whats interesting is where things go from there--now that GS protects against Colossi and Immorals have good range, War of the Worlds doesn't strike me as a logical endgame, at least not teching directly to Colossi after you get one Immortal. So what happens in PvP in the mid and late game? I could definitely see Chargelot-Archon becoming more popular, and drop play will likely take off as well.
PvZ, I don't think pure-Roach compositions are gonna be too popular with the new Immortal. Actually, a good Zealot wall with an Immortal behind it will be all but impenetrable vs. Roach-Ling, since the Lings cant get past the Zealots, and the Immortal can sit comfortably behind them sniping Roaches. Hydras will be essential vs. Immortal+Gateway comps, which will make Protoss happy since Colossi are just one building away if you have Immortals, and Hydras die so easily to Colossi. "Deathballs" will be somewhat more viable against the semi-nerfed FG, although I still dont think well see a return to Cruncher-style a-moving Colossi and Void Rays. On the other hand, Blink was something Z QQed about more than any other ability, and now it hits a fair bit later. Not sure what to make about the new Ultra except Im glad we have improved Immorals to deal with them. I think its impossible to say right now how this will shake out, except that changes will be substantial.
PvT will be the most interesting. Lategame, MC-style HT+Prism play will be much more popular after this. I expect Storm drops in general to define Protoss play in the lategame. 1/1/1 should be fairly easy to hold, and there's less reason to fear 2-rax, and BFH is a bit easier to handle.
All in all, I'm very excited. The only thing I'm worried about is, as I said, Gateway+Immortal being too hard for Z to handle without Hydras because P can now just park Immortals behind Zealots and decimate Roach-Ling, because the timing window on Hydras is really narrow before Colossi come out, especially if you were playing Robo to begin with. I have a suspicion Zerg may need a Hydra buff before this all shakes out.
Blink research change hasnt anything to do with PvZ . It mostly change for TvP when terran do no gas FE and P answer with blinkstalker semi-allin. For PvP is quite nice for fanboys of robobuilds because they can get maybe two immortals before first blink poke.
Just tossing this in in reply to awesomoecalypse without a quote:
Linked to your post there in my OP with regards to the guardian shield. Being the big nonprotoss, I didnt realise the implications of this change were this huge.
With regards to the zealot/immortal timing: yes, this is definately a concern. However, keep in mind lings are so nice and fast, so it would come down to wether or not you can protect your immortals from zerglings while still keeping the fire on the roaches. I dont believe hydralisks will be the answer of most zergs, but rather attackupgrade roaches, some spine crawlers to help deal damage, and trying to get earlier but fewer infestors. Fungal completely penetrates hardened shields still. But you are right, zealot/immortal will be scary as early game pushes if you can prevent the zerg from getting a surround with pure lings. The only downside is that you sort of commit to it relying on the zerg to actually get roaches. Zealot/immortal will have a hard time handling pure ling into fast infestor.
On August 25 2011 21:43 rpgalon wrote: PvP is going from a micro-rush intensive matchup to a macro-turtle intensive matchup
I'm all for a macro-turtle over "HERP we both 4 gated let's trade bases" Also the Immortal buff is HUGE, it allows stalkers to tank zealors, for the immmortals while the immortals FF enemy stalkers. \o/
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125. Implications and reasoning: Contaminate is so strong especially in ZvZ. I think this is completely justified.
What do the rest of you guys think?
Would add that the decrease in Overseer cost also contributes to the increase in energy cost.
Its great to see some much needed changes all around. The Ultralisk is a particularly interesting one. Ultralisks being a huge cost & build time, there were large periods where Zerg was vulnerable to attack. The Ultralisk became is such a valuable unit that Zerg couldn't use as a sacrificial piece to break an entrenched opponent. Protoss and Terran had enough time to scout for tech changes as well as remax on effective hard counters like maruaders, immortals or collossi.
I also see the Spanishwa style coming back in more popularity.
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
I agree - then again, the upgrade cost for terran is generally pretty screwed up and random. I mean, 100/100 for stim is ridiculously underpriced. People would probably even get it for 200/200 (this is what charge costs) and more . 150/150 for a not so overwhelming damage upgrade does seem pretty meh in comparison - I like that Blizz tries to change the luck-based hellion wars in TvT, but this change really reduces the viability of the upgrade....making it cheaper would probably be a good idea.
On August 26 2011 00:26 SaJa wrote: Nothing for carrier ? Ok nvm ~~
don't beat the dead horse - let the poor carriers rest in peace
I love the immortal upgrade, but one problem I potentially see is the immortal's intrusion into the "6 range area/arc", which has been, up to now, dominated by the stalker. This might mean that immortals will have to shuffle around the stalkers (just like b4 when they got stuck in the back) and create a larger arc, which means less firing, or firing at the wrong targets (zlots, marines, etc.)
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
I agree - then again, the upgrade cost for terran is generally pretty screwed up and random. I mean, 100/100 for stim is ridiculously underpriced. People would probably even get it for 200/200 (this is what charge costs) and more . 150/150 for a not so overwhelming damage upgrade does seem pretty meh in comparison - I like that Blizz tries to change the luck-based hellion wars in TvT, but this change really reduces the viability of the upgrade....making it cheaper would probably be a good idea.
I think that this is overall going to be a good patch. I like the Immortal buff and the Ultra buff. I think Immortals will be much more effective now and Ultras,units that I think is very effective in some situations, will be seen more often.
On August 26 2011 00:29 sleepingdog wrote: I agree - then again, the upgrade cost for terran is generally pretty screwed up and random. I mean, 100/100 for stim is ridiculously underpriced. People would probably even get it for 200/200 (this is what charge costs) and more .
Upgrades are not just about cost effectiveness. Some cheap upgrades are there because they lock things until certain timings/tech. For example blizzard probably will never change the 50/50 warpgate upgrade cost whereas it's probably the most cost effective upgrade in the game.
Hmm mech seems to have been fucked again. NP is now way stronger, Tanks do much less vs P. Hellions weaker. I think were going to have to let mech die along with carriers.
However FG is now worse so i cant really complain
Tbh my favorite is the Mothership buff. Everyone loves the mothership
On August 25 2011 20:14 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Really hate the hellion nerf, it just feels like everytime terran find a way to use mech (siege tanks, thors, hellions), it gets smashed into the ground by Blizzard, like they only want terrans to go marine/tank and marine/marauder. Hellions weren't even overpowered aside from arguably TvT, which doesn't really matter, just means the TvT meta-game shifts. They were just usable in TvZ and TvP, and now their only use is (once again) getting out a couple of hellions early on against zerg and "hoping your BFH drop does good damage". Oh, btw, what people "hope" will change with this change is that you won't suddenly lose 30 workers if you miscontrol during a hellion drop, well, you still will, sorry. This just means they are simply no longer viable units in your main army. Oh well, guess it's back to hating all terran matchups as they're back to turtling only
Only usable? I think the Koreans at the GSL and the recent "Slayers Hellion Trend" proved that hellions are INSANELY strong against any race.
OP, some things that I thought were obvious but you left out:
- Barracks +5s is a scouting buff for other races above all else. That is the window where terran wants to get a factory but needs the marine to chase the scout away.
- Contaminate nerf is because overseers have gotten cheaper. No need to over analyse it.
- Unit vision on ramp: I thought blinking past bunkers was the problem (rather than blinking past forcefields which will still be possible as long as one unit is on the other side of the forcefield)
- Shields on warp prism: No, it is not so much to encourage drop play. It is to make warp prisms more used in mid battle: eg, ferrying high templars which protects them from EMP, instant forward pylons.
- Infernal preigniter change: Quite simple, they want to keep zerglings 2 shot and make workers 3 shot. Vehicle weapons will make a difference in worker killing efficiency. Agree that the upgrade wont pay for itself very well.
On August 25 2011 19:46 AA.spoon wrote: blink change doesn't affect pvz at all. As an avid fan of blinkstalker play vs zerg, waiting 20sec more in pvz for blink is not going to affect me at all. The trouble is they nerfed blink stalker play in pvp BADLY. None will be opening blink anymore, as the timing will give your opponent one more immortal, or dts. Combined with the immortal buff, this is awful for pvp. It will be robo vs robo all the way, all the time.
Thats somehow true, but if more people opens robo, we may see more stargate play and more guessing/mindgames(since its impisiible to scout in pvp)
I don't understand your logic here: "if more people opens robo" then it will not be impossible to scout. Scouting will be easier.
-Pre-Ignitor cost should be reduced for such a drastic nerf -Infestors seem too strong in the mid-game and I'm not sure a FG DPS nerf is the right way to go about it -Huge buff to Ultralisk build time, not sure what the effect will be. Seems a lot of people are sleeping on this one. -I do believe the Warp Prism buff will encourage drop play. The mere fact it got buffed, regardless of what that buff is, will draw attention to it and I look forward to seeing it affect Protoss' currently fairly rigid playstyle.
How would you deal now that bunker is (yet again) delayed??
OH AND BY THE WAY, woker harass is gonna last a little longer... -.-
See, the whole thing about nerfing terran openers is stupid... Now everything is delayed... i can even see cannon rushes being the norm vs terran... bah
promising changes? by that you mean nerfing terran to an extent that it really is beyond unplayable at standard level of play just because it has the highest skill cap and korean terrans can dominate with 300 apm and impeccalbe micro? yea, that's really good for overall balance. gj blizzard. fucking ridiculous.
TBH, I feel your analysis is missing quite a lot of things in regards to PvP... Obviously this is fine because you're zerg, but I'd like to point some stuff out. The Immortal Change is to address two things. First of all, it is not cost-efficient vs. roaches in more than small numbers, but mainly against the 1/1/1, which is ridiculous in Korean TvP atm... Marine/Tank/Banshee that crushes gateway units and destroys immortals with Banshees and Marines before they can get to the siege tanks, which reinforce the contain. This is also buffing them for more robo/macro play in PvP
The ramp change is so that Blink stalkers can't blink up a ramp, but even more importantly, warpins cannot happen high up on a ramp above a FF. This makes 4 gate much weaker and pushes towards Robo play.
Blink is a change for two things. It won't really change PvZ as Blink Stalker timing pushes are waiting for +2 far after blink is done, so the strongest timings will be left untouched. What it does do, however, is make FE's on Tal'darim and other ramped natural maps much safer to blink stalker openings (something used to great effect by Naniwa and MC in many of their PvT's). It also has a profound effect on PvP, where blink-stalker was a very viable opening. Combined with the immortal buff, Robo play looks like its going to be king in the PvP matchup. Blink timings won't be nearly as dangerous vP now.
On August 26 2011 02:44 rmAmnesiac wrote: promising changes? by that you mean nerfing terran to an extent that it really is beyond unplayable at standard level of play just because it has the highest skill cap and korean terrans can dominate with 300 apm and impeccalbe micro? yea, that's really good for overall balance. gj blizzard. fucking ridiculous.
Rofl what the hell? We get Khaydarin removed, and we're just sorta like "QQ, no more instant storm-warpins!" You get your friggin barracks delayed by FIVE FRIGGIN SECONDS, and you can't instantly decimate a whole worker line in 5 seconds (by the way, you can still drop MM which if undefended ALWAYS do damage to something.) where you still have a BARELY nerfed 1/1/1 (Immortal buff), and have no changes to ghost (how MC loses pretty much every non-cheese PvT he loses), and you say "oops terran not viable anymore GG". When's the last time 5 seconds would have made a significant difference? I can give you one ONE example of all the games I've seen. Jinro vs. Idra 6 pool game on Jungle Basin. That is ONE game. Yes, you get all your buildings pushed back approximately 15 seconds, but it is not "oh GG Terran unplayable". Terran were winning a ton before blueflame and before 1/1/1, and without 3 rax, there is no problem here.
Also, even more important, remember that this is PTR, none of these changes are finalized yet, so stop with your Doom and gloom "terran unplayable" BS.
On August 26 2011 02:43 xTrim wrote: bah... Proxy gateways vs t are now unstoppable...
It was already hard....
How would you deal now that bunker is (yet again) delayed??
OH AND BY THE WAY, woker harass is gonna last a little longer... -.-
See, the whole thing about nerfing terran openers is stupid... Now everything is delayed... i can even see cannon rushes being the norm vs terran... bah
master terran here
You wanna know the last time I've seen a T lose to a proxy gate? MC vs. Rain. 5 seconds wouldn't have made a crap of difference, Rain played it TERRIBLY, getting a maurauder with no Conc shell instead of like 5 more marines. Also, oh snap 5 extra seconds of scouting and zapping won't ruin your whole build order. I don't think nerfing terran opening this early is good neccessarily, BUT, unless another fix becomes apparent (this one does minimal to your lategame while maybe giving Protoss 1 extra warpin or zerg 5/6 more double zerglings), 1/1/1, double bunker (MVP v Nestea), 3 rax (MC v Noblesse), and 2 rax (MKP v Z) give Terran soo much flexibility and strength early game. You either get 5 seconds here or a marine nerf next week... Your choice.
Also, throwing around your rank like that means nothing... That's no better than me going "I'm a diamond Protoss and I tell you little bronze scrubs (my brothers in this example), that Ravens are OP." Something most know isn't true, but how do they have any idea otherwise? You're statement of rank is nothing more than bullying and wielding "power". I'd like to see a well'reasoned response though, as I don't play Terran and might not understand everythign clearly
On August 26 2011 02:44 rmAmnesiac wrote: promising changes? by that you mean nerfing terran to an extent that it really is beyond unplayable at standard level of play just because it has the highest skill cap and korean terrans can dominate with 300 apm and impeccalbe micro? yea, that's really good for overall balance. gj blizzard. fucking ridiculous.
Rofl what the hell? We get Khaydarin removed, and we're just sorta like "QQ, no more instant storm-warpins!" You get your friggin barracks delayed by FIVE FRIGGIN SECONDS, and you can't instantly decimate a whole worker line in 5 seconds (by the way, you can still drop MM which if undefended ALWAYS do damage to something.) where you still have a BARELY nerfed 1/1/1 (Immortal buff), and have no changes to ghost (how MC loses pretty much every non-cheese PvT he loses), and you say "oops terran not viable anymore GG". When's the last time 5 seconds would have made a significant difference? I can give you one ONE example of all the games I've seen. Jinro vs. Idra 6 pool game on Jungle Basin. That is ONE game. Yes, you get all your buildings pushed back approximately 15 seconds, but it is not "oh GG Terran unplayable". Terran were winning a ton before blueflame and before 1/1/1, and without 3 rax, there is no problem here.
Also, even more important, remember that this is PTR, none of these changes are finalized yet, so stop with your Doom and gloom "terran unplayable" BS.
learn to play random and get some actualy perspective on skill levels required to play this game at a standard masters level, where terran have been almost indefinitely underepresented for the past 8 months. the way to solve that is to nerf racks build time and overall terran play, buff ultras and neural parasite (where late game is already broken in zergs favour), nerf mech, and buff an laready strong protoss unit and another one which functions best under the 1 a deathball syndrom.
yes that's the way to make a good and balanved game. unsurprisingly making a decent e-sport and a game nejoyable for the masses aren't totally mutuall exlcusive but retared patches like these aren't the way to go about it.
On August 26 2011 02:58 xTrim wrote: 5 seconds makes a lot of difference... a lot indeed... especially if needed for a bunker defense against cheese
Your barracks is now the same buildtime as our gateway, and you can fullwalloff with no cost to you. You now have 3 marines instead of two against a 6 pool if you wall, and you can repair your barracks/depots as they get hit. Against two gate, its even easier, zealots get little surface area, and you can still repair. Toss holds off 6P fine, why can't you guys with a ranged unit and a high-survivability walloff? Like I said, I'd like to see a match where that 5 seconds would matter... Otherwise, you're just saying "I'm masters you're diamond I'm right"
On August 26 2011 02:44 rmAmnesiac wrote: promising changes? by that you mean nerfing terran to an extent that it really is beyond unplayable at standard level of play just because it has the highest skill cap and korean terrans can dominate with 300 apm and impeccalbe micro? yea, that's really good for overall balance. gj blizzard. fucking ridiculous.
Rofl what the hell? We get Khaydarin removed, and we're just sorta like "QQ, no more instant storm-warpins!" You get your friggin barracks delayed by FIVE FRIGGIN SECONDS, and you can't instantly decimate a whole worker line in 5 seconds (by the way, you can still drop MM which if undefended ALWAYS do damage to something.) where you still have a BARELY nerfed 1/1/1 (Immortal buff), and have no changes to ghost (how MC loses pretty much every non-cheese PvT he loses), and you say "oops terran not viable anymore GG". When's the last time 5 seconds would have made a significant difference? I can give you one ONE example of all the games I've seen. Jinro vs. Idra 6 pool game on Jungle Basin. That is ONE game. Yes, you get all your buildings pushed back approximately 15 seconds, but it is not "oh GG Terran unplayable". Terran were winning a ton before blueflame and before 1/1/1, and without 3 rax, there is no problem here.
Also, even more important, remember that this is PTR, none of these changes are finalized yet, so stop with your Doom and gloom "terran unplayable" BS.
learn to play random and get some actualy perspective on skill levels required to play this game at a standard masters level, where terran have been almost indefinitely underepresented for the past 8 months. the way to solve that is to nerf racks build time and overall terran play, buff ultras and neural parasite (where late game is already broken in zergs favour), nerf mech, and buff an laready strong protoss unit and another one which functions best under the 1 a deathball syndrom.
yes that's the way to make a good and balanved game. unsurprisingly making a decent e-sport and a game nejoyable for the masses aren't totally mutuall exlcusive but retared patches like these aren't the way to go about it.
And the game is perfectly balanced, that is why MC can lose to PuMa after Puma is on one base vs, MC 1 base DOUBLE WORKERS, after pulling half his SCV's to reinforce his push and PvT has a FORTY percent win rate in Korea, where the skill is the best and the farthest ahead? Also why Terran has the higher win-rate vs. zerg too correct? Oh, and Terran also has 5/8 entries in ro8 of GSL August. More than the other two races COMBINED! Terran is not inherently broken, the thing is, you seem to think that 5 seconds and two negligible buffs are going to make a huge difference. Let me ask you, do you have a problem with Mass immortal in TvP? Do you have a problem with mass Ultra in TvZ? Or rather, do the pros? Not that I know of, so show me. Show me a game where mass Immo won a game, or where mass ultra won a game, and I'll understand better.
Immortals btw? Strong? yeah they can beat 4 roaches BARELY which they are supposed to HARD COUNTER which costs barely more than them. At numbers higher than that it becomes an immortal massacre.
On August 26 2011 02:44 rmAmnesiac wrote: promising changes? by that you mean nerfing terran to an extent that it really is beyond unplayable at standard level of play just because it has the highest skill cap and korean terrans can dominate with 300 apm and impeccalbe micro? yea, that's really good for overall balance. gj blizzard. fucking ridiculous.
Rofl what the hell? We get Khaydarin removed, and we're just sorta like "QQ, no more instant storm-warpins!" You get your friggin barracks delayed by FIVE FRIGGIN SECONDS, and you can't instantly decimate a whole worker line in 5 seconds (by the way, you can still drop MM which if undefended ALWAYS do damage to something.) where you still have a BARELY nerfed 1/1/1 (Immortal buff), and have no changes to ghost (how MC loses pretty much every non-cheese PvT he loses), and you say "oops terran not viable anymore GG". When's the last time 5 seconds would have made a significant difference? I can give you one ONE example of all the games I've seen. Jinro vs. Idra 6 pool game on Jungle Basin. That is ONE game. Yes, you get all your buildings pushed back approximately 15 seconds, but it is not "oh GG Terran unplayable". Terran were winning a ton before blueflame and before 1/1/1, and without 3 rax, there is no problem here.
Also, even more important, remember that this is PTR, none of these changes are finalized yet, so stop with your Doom and gloom "terran unplayable" BS.
learn to play random and get some actualy perspective on skill levels required to play this game at a standard masters level, where terran have been almost indefinitely underepresented for the past 8 months. the way to solve that is to nerf racks build time and overall terran play, buff ultras and neural parasite (where late game is already broken in zergs favour), nerf mech, and buff an laready strong protoss unit and another one which functions best under the 1 a deathball syndrom.
yes that's the way to make a good and balanved game. unsurprisingly making a decent e-sport and a game nejoyable for the masses aren't totally mutuall exlcusive but retared patches like these aren't the way to go about it.
The problem here is I have statistics and pro games, and you have nada. I can't accept your masters arguments while I have KR GM arguments unless you can show me otherwise, I'm sorry.
learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
On August 26 2011 02:44 rmAmnesiac wrote: promising changes? by that you mean nerfing terran to an extent that it really is beyond unplayable at standard level of play just because it has the highest skill cap and korean terrans can dominate with 300 apm and impeccalbe micro? yea, that's really good for overall balance. gj blizzard. fucking ridiculous.
Rofl what the hell? We get Khaydarin removed, and we're just sorta like "QQ, no more instant storm-warpins!" You get your friggin barracks delayed by FIVE FRIGGIN SECONDS, and you can't instantly decimate a whole worker line in 5 seconds (by the way, you can still drop MM which if undefended ALWAYS do damage to something.) where you still have a BARELY nerfed 1/1/1 (Immortal buff), and have no changes to ghost (how MC loses pretty much every non-cheese PvT he loses), and you say "oops terran not viable anymore GG". When's the last time 5 seconds would have made a significant difference? I can give you one ONE example of all the games I've seen. Jinro vs. Idra 6 pool game on Jungle Basin. That is ONE game. Yes, you get all your buildings pushed back approximately 15 seconds, but it is not "oh GG Terran unplayable". Terran were winning a ton before blueflame and before 1/1/1, and without 3 rax, there is no problem here.
Also, even more important, remember that this is PTR, none of these changes are finalized yet, so stop with your Doom and gloom "terran unplayable" BS.
learn to play random and get some actualy perspective on skill levels required to play this game at a standard masters level, where terran have been almost indefinitely underepresented for the past 8 months. the way to solve that is to nerf racks build time and overall terran play, buff ultras and neural parasite (where late game is already broken in zergs favour), nerf mech, and buff an laready strong protoss unit and another one which functions best under the 1 a deathball syndrom.
yes that's the way to make a good and balanved game. unsurprisingly making a decent e-sport and a game nejoyable for the masses aren't totally mutuall exlcusive but retared patches like these aren't the way to go about it.
And the game is perfectly balanced, that is why MC can lose to PuMa after Puma is on one base vs, MC 1 base DOUBLE WORKERS, after pulling half his SCV's to reinforce his push and PvT has a FORTY percent win rate in Korea, where the skill is the best and the farthest ahead? Also why Terran has the higher win-rate vs. zerg too correct? Oh, and Terran also has 5/8 entries in ro8 of GSL August. More than the other two races COMBINED! Terran is not inherently broken, the thing is, you seem to think that 5 seconds and two negligible buffs are going to make a huge difference. Let me ask you, do you have a problem with Mass immortal in TvP? Do you have a problem with mass Ultra in TvZ? Or rather, do the pros? Not that I know of, so show me. Show me a game where mass Immo won a game, or where mass ultra won a game, and I'll understand better.
Immortals btw? Strong? yeah they can beat 4 roaches BARELY which they are supposed to HARD COUNTER which costs barely more than them. At numbers higher than that it becomes an immortal massacre.
Also, again, not finalized jeez.
hurray your only answer is pro level terrans are dominating so therefore terrans on all levels by definition should dominate. you realise how retarded that comment is? no i'm not a pro level kroean terran who plays this game 10 hours a day. as a result should i have inferior chances to win because of it? and no you don't understand terran because you have clearly never played it beyond a bronze level. hence why i said learn to play random, get some perspective.
On August 26 2011 02:44 rmAmnesiac wrote: promising changes? by that you mean nerfing terran to an extent that it really is beyond unplayable at standard level of play just because it has the highest skill cap and korean terrans can dominate with 300 apm and impeccalbe micro? yea, that's really good for overall balance. gj blizzard. fucking ridiculous.
Rofl what the hell? We get Khaydarin removed, and we're just sorta like "QQ, no more instant storm-warpins!" You get your friggin barracks delayed by FIVE FRIGGIN SECONDS, and you can't instantly decimate a whole worker line in 5 seconds (by the way, you can still drop MM which if undefended ALWAYS do damage to something.) where you still have a BARELY nerfed 1/1/1 (Immortal buff), and have no changes to ghost (how MC loses pretty much every non-cheese PvT he loses), and you say "oops terran not viable anymore GG". When's the last time 5 seconds would have made a significant difference? I can give you one ONE example of all the games I've seen. Jinro vs. Idra 6 pool game on Jungle Basin. That is ONE game. Yes, you get all your buildings pushed back approximately 15 seconds, but it is not "oh GG Terran unplayable". Terran were winning a ton before blueflame and before 1/1/1, and without 3 rax, there is no problem here.
Also, even more important, remember that this is PTR, none of these changes are finalized yet, so stop with your Doom and gloom "terran unplayable" BS.
learn to play random and get some actualy perspective on skill levels required to play this game at a standard masters level, where terran have been almost indefinitely underepresented for the past 8 months. the way to solve that is to nerf racks build time and overall terran play, buff ultras and neural parasite (where late game is already broken in zergs favour), nerf mech, and buff an laready strong protoss unit and another one which functions best under the 1 a deathball syndrom.
yes that's the way to make a good and balanved game. unsurprisingly making a decent e-sport and a game nejoyable for the masses aren't totally mutuall exlcusive but retared patches like these aren't the way to go about it.
And the game is perfectly balanced, that is why MC can lose to PuMa after Puma is on one base vs, MC 1 base DOUBLE WORKERS, after pulling half his SCV's to reinforce his push and PvT has a FORTY percent win rate in Korea, where the skill is the best and the farthest ahead? Also why Terran has the higher win-rate vs. zerg too correct? Oh, and Terran also has 5/8 entries in ro8 of GSL August. More than the other two races COMBINED! Terran is not inherently broken, the thing is, you seem to think that 5 seconds and two negligible buffs are going to make a huge difference. Let me ask you, do you have a problem with Mass immortal in TvP? Do you have a problem with mass Ultra in TvZ? Or rather, do the pros? Not that I know of, so show me. Show me a game where mass Immo won a game, or where mass ultra won a game, and I'll understand better.
Immortals btw? Strong? yeah they can beat 4 roaches BARELY which they are supposed to HARD COUNTER which costs barely more than them. At numbers higher than that it becomes an immortal massacre.
Also, again, not finalized jeez.
hurray your only answer is pro level terrans are dominating so therefore terrans on all levels by definition should dominate. you realise how retarded that comment is? no i'm not a pro level kroean terran who plays this game 10 hours a day. as a result should i have inferior chances to win because of it? and no you don't understand terran because you have clearly never played it beyond a bronze level. hence why i said learn to play random, get some perspective.
Not at all. I play Terran at Gold level btw (which isnt' saying anything). What I'm really saying si that the game should be balanced around the pros because they're the ones with the best understanding of the game. Should the rules of Football be changed because amateurs can't tackle a really strong play runner? No!
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
Again, show me a game where the 5 seconds would have mattered on some non-retarded map.
I don't really get why protoss players are so excited about these changes.
Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go.
Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push. Blizzard keeps producing changes that railroad protoss players into turtling without harassment capabilities. The warp prism buff doesn't matter for harassment as I wrote above because even with more shields on it, observers and colossus are necessary to survive, while the warp prism is just a "hey, might be fun for a gimmick".
P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf).
On August 26 2011 02:44 rmAmnesiac wrote: promising changes? by that you mean nerfing terran to an extent that it really is beyond unplayable at standard level of play just because it has the highest skill cap and korean terrans can dominate with 300 apm and impeccalbe micro? yea, that's really good for overall balance. gj blizzard. fucking ridiculous.
Rofl what the hell? We get Khaydarin removed, and we're just sorta like "QQ, no more instant storm-warpins!" You get your friggin barracks delayed by FIVE FRIGGIN SECONDS, and you can't instantly decimate a whole worker line in 5 seconds (by the way, you can still drop MM which if undefended ALWAYS do damage to something.) where you still have a BARELY nerfed 1/1/1 (Immortal buff), and have no changes to ghost (how MC loses pretty much every non-cheese PvT he loses), and you say "oops terran not viable anymore GG". When's the last time 5 seconds would have made a significant difference? I can give you one ONE example of all the games I've seen. Jinro vs. Idra 6 pool game on Jungle Basin. That is ONE game. Yes, you get all your buildings pushed back approximately 15 seconds, but it is not "oh GG Terran unplayable". Terran were winning a ton before blueflame and before 1/1/1, and without 3 rax, there is no problem here.
Also, even more important, remember that this is PTR, none of these changes are finalized yet, so stop with your Doom and gloom "terran unplayable" BS.
learn to play random and get some actualy perspective on skill levels required to play this game at a standard masters level, where terran have been almost indefinitely underepresented for the past 8 months. the way to solve that is to nerf racks build time and overall terran play, buff ultras and neural parasite (where late game is already broken in zergs favour), nerf mech, and buff an laready strong protoss unit and another one which functions best under the 1 a deathball syndrom.
yes that's the way to make a good and balanved game. unsurprisingly making a decent e-sport and a game nejoyable for the masses aren't totally mutuall exlcusive but retared patches like these aren't the way to go about it.
And the game is perfectly balanced, that is why MC can lose to PuMa after Puma is on one base vs, MC 1 base DOUBLE WORKERS, after pulling half his SCV's to reinforce his push and PvT has a FORTY percent win rate in Korea, where the skill is the best and the farthest ahead? Also why Terran has the higher win-rate vs. zerg too correct? Oh, and Terran also has 5/8 entries in ro8 of GSL August. More than the other two races COMBINED! Terran is not inherently broken, the thing is, you seem to think that 5 seconds and two negligible buffs are going to make a huge difference. Let me ask you, do you have a problem with Mass immortal in TvP? Do you have a problem with mass Ultra in TvZ? Or rather, do the pros? Not that I know of, so show me. Show me a game where mass Immo won a game, or where mass ultra won a game, and I'll understand better.
Immortals btw? Strong? yeah they can beat 4 roaches BARELY which they are supposed to HARD COUNTER which costs barely more than them. At numbers higher than that it becomes an immortal massacre.
Also, again, not finalized jeez.
hurray your only answer is pro level terrans are dominating so therefore terrans on all levels by definition should dominate. you realise how retarded that comment is? no i'm not a pro level kroean terran who plays this game 10 hours a day. as a result should i have inferior chances to win because of it? and no you don't understand terran because you have clearly never played it beyond a bronze level. hence why i said learn to play random, get some perspective.
Not at all. I play Terran at Gold level btw (which isnt' saying anything). What I'm really saying si that the game should be balanced around the pros because they're the ones with the best understanding of the game. Should the rules of Football be changed because amateurs can't tackle a really strong play runner? No!
so that's fair on the 99.9% of players playing this game how? why are making a good e-sport and good game for the masses so totally mutually exclusive?
I played masters random all through season two. Switched to Zerg season three, but these changes are making me consider switching to terran or toss cause they have SOOO much potential :D
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
Again, show me a game where the 5 seconds would have mattered on some non-retarded map.
you realise over a course of a game 5 seconds on every single racks built adds up to quite a lot? i guess not. try to engage your brain.
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12...
On August 26 2011 03:14 galivet wrote: I don't really get why protoss players are so excited about these changes.
Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go.
Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push. Blizzard keeps producing changes that railroad protoss players into turtling without harassment capabilities. The warp prism buff doesn't matter for harassment as I wrote above because even with more shields on it, observers and colossus are necessary to survive, while the warp prism is just a "hey, might be fun for a gimmick".
P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf).
I think people are really excited about two things. One, easier deflection of 1/1/1 and better efficiency against early roach play when going robo.
2. Better toss harrassment, something that's been lacking for forever (I'm not sure this will fix it, but it will definitely make it safer investment wise).
Also, that 1 marine shot makes vikings and VR last 1 fungal longer, meaning that if they have no other AA (as zergs often don't) protecting your bl's will require much more energy against well spread VR/Vikings. That's the main reason for the nerf AFAIK.
As far as DT's go, I agree, its not optimal, but! Blink stalker pushes shouldn't be changed, as most standard (and strongest) ones wait for +2 , NOT for blink to finish, therefore, it really shouldn't change much.
I do agree with you tho, I feel these changes are a bit overhyped...
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12...
sorry but ur argument is fail
Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not.
And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12...
sorry but ur argument is fail
Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not.
And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL
i never said it was unplayable.. im saying that cheese has been greatly greatly buffed vs t
for instance, what terran player was not expecting like a crazy dude for that SINGLE MARINE TO POP AND SAVE THE DAY???
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
Again, show me a game where the 5 seconds would have mattered on some non-retarded map.
you realise over a course of a game 5 seconds on every single racks built adds up to quite a lot? i guess not. try to engage your brain.
Stop being snotty. It won't have much of a difference. Once the rax is up there is no difference. Sure, when you drop a bunch of rax because you just expanded it delays your next wave by 5 seconds, but that is almost (99 games out of 100) not a game ending delay. Once the rax are up it plays 100% the same as before. The way I see it this change will only effect two situations. Aggressive rax timings and defending cheese.
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12...
sorry but ur argument is fail
And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL
and by your own admission, your gold level terran play qualifies you to make that assumption?
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12...
sorry but ur argument is fail
Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not.
And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL
i never said it was unplayable.. im saying that cheese has been greatly greatly buffed vs t
for instance, what terran player was not expecting like a crazy dude for that SINGLE MARINE TO POP AND SAVE THE DAY???
I think.... maybe you're overreacting... What other race starts their first "tech" structure as early as terran? (12 supply) You'll be fine against cheese. Just need to scout a bit earlier than before, if at all.
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Yes, the fact that the infestors are able to cast their spell immediately as they pop, even if you're there to kill them they can still cast it before they die because of the no casting time is hard to deal with as protoss.
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
then you are talking about race specifics...
what race expands at 14 with 300 resources?? or what race can have its first unit producing heavily harassed by some nasty workers?
terran builds rax on 12 our 13 (gas first) because it has resources to do it... basically thats it.. when you are queuing ur 12th scv, there are 150 minerals left... so what do u do with them/? make a rax... simple as that... theres no chronoboosting, so ur not saving that extra 50 minerals to use efficiently the CB time (as a toss would)
like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12...
sorry but ur argument is fail
Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not.
And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL
i never said it was unplayable.. im saying that cheese has been greatly greatly buffed vs t
for instance, what terran player was not expecting like a crazy dude for that SINGLE MARINE TO POP AND SAVE THE DAY???
I think.... maybe you're overreacting... What other race starts their first "tech" structure as early as terran? (12 supply) You'll be fine against cheese. Just need to scout a bit earlier than before, if at all.
-random masters
then you are talking about race specifics...
what race expands at 14 with 300 resources?? or what race can have its first unit producing heavily harassed by some nasty workers?
terran builds rax on 12 our 13 (gas first) because it has resources to do it... basically thats it.. when you are queuing ur 12th scv, there are 150 minerals left... so what do u do with them/? make a rax... simple as that... theres no chronoboosting, so ur not saving that extra 50 minerals to use efficiently the CB time (as a toss would)
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info
I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you.
then you are talking about race specifics...
what race expands at 14 with 300 resources?? or what race can have its first unit producing heavily harassed by some nasty workers?
terran builds rax on 12 our 13 (gas first) because it has resources to do it... basically thats it.. when you are queuing ur 12th scv, there are 150 minerals left... so what do u do with them/? make a rax... simple as that... theres no chronoboosting, so ur not saving that extra 50 minerals to use efficiently the CB time (as a toss would)
like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12...
sorry but ur argument is fail
Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not.
And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL
i never said it was unplayable.. im saying that cheese has been greatly greatly buffed vs t
for instance, what terran player was not expecting like a crazy dude for that SINGLE MARINE TO POP AND SAVE THE DAY???
I think.... maybe you're overreacting... What other race starts their first "tech" structure as early as terran? (12 supply) You'll be fine against cheese. Just need to scout a bit earlier than before, if at all.
-random masters
then you are talking about race specifics...
what race expands at 14 with 300 resources?? or what race can have its first unit producing heavily harassed by some nasty workers?
terran builds rax on 12 our 13 (gas first) because it has resources to do it... basically thats it.. when you are queuing ur 12th scv, there are 150 minerals left... so what do u do with them/? make a rax... simple as that... theres no chronoboosting, so ur not saving that extra 50 minerals to use efficiently the CB time (as a toss would)
Not saying this is a solve-all, in fact I don't think it would be at all, and I could just be completely off base, but sending a scout earlier would change the timings a bit correct, so that you wouldn't have to do things in that specific order and get you earlier information about cheese? Just wondering if that would help things at all...
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no (i exagerrated) but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
I searched the thread for the word banelings and it only came up once so..... (cant believe this has yet to be said) fungal growth no longer 1 shots banelings.
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
I've done this before and I know that so many people selfishly look at their own race and disregard the other races' problems some of them with even a little bit of insult added... I think that is very disrespectful and an indication of a low level of understanding of the game. So im asking the moderators of this website to clean their domain from people who generalize and insult a portion of community... otherwise I'd dare to say this site has a weak administration.
I don't really get why protoss players are so excited about these changes.
Because you're not thinking clearly.
Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go.
This is, frankly, stupid. A major part of the problem with Protoss right now is that they are really, really inflexible. Only some of their units are viable in most situations, and all of their units are expensive. They are hugely reliant on T3, and their harass options suck at most stages of the game.They have a few effective general strats which T and Z have fairly well figured out right now, and most Toss are trying to innovate, but the problem is that they just don't have that many good units. As you say, even though the Robo tree gets you 4 units, currently only 2 are fully viable. Immortals have a very narrow timing window of not sucking, and then they are viable against only specific builds. Warp Prisms can be effective, but due to their fragility strats built around them can fall apart with the slightest misclick.
This addresses that issue. As was seen with both Roaches and Archons, range buffs are hugely beneficial to a Unit's overall effectiveness. Especially if, as with Immortals, they are both slow as hell and do insane dps once they get in range. Immortal+Zealot will hard-counter every single Roach-Ling all-in. Just park your Immortals behind your Zealots, watch the Lings get mauled as they try to get through the Zealots, while your Immortal sits safely in the back, sniping Roaches who can't hit back. An Immortal will also be much, much more useful in defending against 1/1/1 builds.
Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Uh....you do realize that FG used to have like twice as long a root effect right? And they cut it in half and bumped the dps accordingly, at which point it became insanely powerful?
The DPS FG did to armored was 100% the problem. I mean, the Root effect is nice and all, but that has always been there, and in fact used to be better. All that has changed to make them better is higher dps. Now it is still fairly high, but not quite as crazy. That definitely helps.
Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push.
How is it diminished? All of the stronger Blink rushes are built around hitting when +2 finishes, which is long after blink will finish pre or post patch. And nobody defends their base against DTs with Overseers anyway, they get like one spore crawler and let their queens do the rest.
P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf).
This is idiotic. Unless you are playing for money, which you are not because you clearly don't know what you're talking about, something being "balanced" doesn't mean shit if it isn't fun, and current PvP is a total coinflip, which is unfun. The Immortal buff and the vision changes put an end to 4-gate, the blink timing delay means it will hit to late to stop a robo from getting enough Immortals to hold it off, meaning that PvP early and midgame will stabilize around robo. However, in the lategame, Guardian shield now works vs. Colossi fire and stacks with Immortal shiels, which combined with their improved range means they can actually get close enough to snipe Colossi, meaning 1-base Colossi wars are likely over.
This is a good thing. A matchup built around coinflip BO wins which if it gets past that point turns into 1-base blink all-ins or Colossi wars 90% of the time, is stupid. Changing that is a good thing.
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
I think thats race design though... I do guess its true in some ways however...
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
This is ridiculous. Terrans are also under represented in diamond and platinum. I suppose you're going to suggest that they're all in masters as well?
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
This is ridiculous. Terrans are also under represented in diamond and platinum. I suppose you're going to suggest that they're all in masters as well?
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
More people playing T doesnt mean that its OP. Maybe people who are better play T, and not that they play T so are better. But anyways this argument is kinda irrelevant.
I admit that the game needs to be balanced around Pros, but he has a point. T is the only race which HAS to pressure, they lose flat out macro games. Especially now mech is slowly getting beaten into the ground. So yea its hard for people to play without pretty awesome APM.
I cant remember who mentioned sjow, but i when Idra was asked how hed beat him, he said hed just get to the mid game and win due to better mechanics. So yea hes good, but his apm is just plain too low for top level.
It seems most of these changes are to stop Terran pressure/1 base all ins. So i ask you, where is my patch to nerf 3 gate proxy voids!!!
Also lol at the HSM buff, like people are actually going to use it. Im not sure why the really precise speed though, i wonder how they came up with that exact number. Can it catch a roach on creep now or something?
EDIT: Also all this shows (http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all) is that its really really easy for zerg to get to plat. Thats kinda well known lol.
Overall id say its a good patch, even though it hurts like hell as a T player. Not even T are complaining about the hellion nerf, its kinda weird though that harass wise, BF is now usless by itseld
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
This is ridiculous. Terrans are also under represented in diamond and platinum. I suppose you're going to suggest that they're all in masters as well?
your data suggests that all races are equal in masters...first off...
while true that they're underrepresented in diamond/plat
and over represented in GM >_>
Yes, you are right Masters is pretty balanced. I was just linking everyone to the data so they could quit inaccurately bitching about representation in a discussion about balance changes.
As a Terran(And former Zerg) I really don't have any complaints about the changes. Hell, I agree with most of them.
BFH change was needed, they were ridiculous, sure its nice taking a Zerg from 90 drones to 30 by attacking 2 bases at once, but it was kinda crazy. Seeker missile being buffed is pretty cool. Now you actually need to split your units instead of just running away.
Fungal was really, really strong. Even when playing Zerg it felt too strong. Overseer cost decrease and contaminate nerf makes sense too. Make it slightly weaker(It's kinda crazy in ZvZ) but make it cheaper for easier scouting. Ultra buff has been needed for a long time.
Warp prism needed buffed, Blink was a bit too good, and the mothership change will actually help keep it a surprise. Not to mention the Immortal range buff which is really nice and, honestly, needed.
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1 is cool too. More defender's advantage(Which people have asked for). Strange change, but I like it.
I haven't tested this yet but I think the -1 sight range for the ramp change will affect peoples ability to kill ramp blocks from bunkers and cannon/pylons. I think a roach still gets hit by a cannon when trying to hit that middle pylon but with the change in might not. Just speculation though.
i never thought blizz would revert back to old balance changes. it used to be that overseer was already 50/50. But they increased it and now it is back to normal. Thank the heavens they saw the light.
btw HSM is going to be good, I just know that people will start using it for blowing up mineral lines. I can see it and feel it.
Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go.
This is, frankly, stupid. A major part of the problem with Protoss right now is that they are really, really inflexible. One some of their units are viable in most situations, and all of their units are expensive. They are hugely reliant on T3, and their harass options suck at most stages of the game.They have a few effective general strats which T and Z have fairly well figured out right now, and most Toss are trying to innovate, but the problem is that they just don't have that many good units. As you say, even though the Robo tree gets you 4 units, currently only 2 are fully viable. Immortals have a very narrow timing window of not sucking, and then they are viable against only specific builds. Warp Prisms can be effective, but due to their fragility strats built around them can fall apart with the slightest misclick.
This addresses that issue. As was seen with both Roaches and Archons, range buffs are hugely beneficial to a Unit's overall effectiveness. Especially if, as with Immortals, they are both slow as hell and do insane dps once they get in range. Immortal+Zealot will hard-counter every single Roach-Ling all-in. Just park your Immortals behind your Zealots, watch the Lings get mauled as they try to get through the Zealots, while your Immortal sits safely in the back, sniping Roaches who can't hit back. An Immortal will also be much, much more useful in defending against 1/1/1 builds.
Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Uh....you do realize that FG used to have like twice as long a root effect right? And they cut it in half and bumped the dps accordingly, at which point it became insanely powerful?
The DPS FG did to armored was 100% the problem. I mean, the Root effect is nice and all, but that has always been there, and in fact used to be better. All that has changed to make them better is higher dps. Now it is still fairly high, but not quite as crazy. That definitely helps.
Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push.
How is it diminished? All of the stronger Blink rushes are built around hitting when +2 finishes, which is long after blink will finish pre or post patch. And nobody defends their base against DTs with Overseers anyway, they get like one spore crawler and let their queens do the rest.
P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf).
This is idiotic. Unless you are playing for money, which you are not because you clearly don't know what you're talking about, something being "balanced" doesn't mean shit if it isn't fun, and current PvP is a total coinflip, which is unfun. The Immortal buff and the vision changes put an end to 4-gate, the blink timing delay means it will hit to late to stop a robo from getting enough Immortals to hold it off, meaning that PvP early and midgame will stabilize around robo. However, in the lategame, Guardian shield now works vs. Colossi fire and stacks with Immortal shiels, which combined with their improved range means they can actually get close enough to snipe Colossi, meaning 1-base Colossi wars are likely over.
This is a good thing. A matchup built around coinflip BO wins which if it gets past that point turns into 1-base blink all-ins or Colossi wars 90% of the time, is stupid. Changing that is a good thing.
First off, your petulantly insulting attitude and ad-homs don't make your arguments stronger; they just make you sound like a kid with a chip on his shoulder (perhaps with the added benefit of allowing you to feel like a "big man" on an internet forum). Anyway:
In PvT, you need AOE to combat large bio-balls. If you attempt to form some kind of HT/immortal composition, then you're doubly vulnerable to EMP -- it both drains templar mana and eliminates the immortal hardened shield bonus. Collosus are still much more valuable outside of a two-base bunker bust that leverages immortals. Immortal range is not at all the issue with 1-1-1; it's the massive DPS of balled marines. Immortals have no trouble getting in range of the tanks; they have trouble standing up to marine DPS.
In PvZ, you still can't usefully mass them like you can roaches because they're much more expensive and take much longer to build. The +1 helps a little by making it easier to micro the 3-4 immortals that you can reasonably get. You're not going to suddenly see giant immortal balls in PvZ because they take too long and too much to build and they're easily countered by a spire tech-switch without the support of large numbers of stalkers and/or HT.
If I were to try and rebalance the PvZ midgame by tweaking infestors, my first choice would not be to adjust FG damage. I might look at the perma-snare ability of spammed FG, or the fact that it's not possible to dodge it like storm can be dodged. But FG damage just isn't a big deal; zealots and archons take forever to damage appreciably with FG. Infested terrans are a much bigger issue; 5 infestors can lob 40 infested terrans at a nexus, which can do over 11,000 damage before they despawn -- enough to kill the nexus, any cannons, workers, and even your whole army if you don't have splash damage when they hit. I'm talking about Destiny's playstyle here.
On the blink nerf: So what if the flavor-of-the-month "best" blink build is unaffected by this nerf? Now protoss can't even represent the threat that they might attack prior to +2. The consequence is that zerg knows he can safely drone for longer. This also breaks one-base blink stalker play on XNC which is also popular. The blink nerf effectively rules out a wide variety of earlier-hitting blink-pressure builds, thereby making it easier for zergs to predict how long they can drone in safety.
As for your PvP comments, I can tell you aren't a protoss and that you're talking out of your ass there. The consequences for PvP at all but the very highest levels of play are negligible.
Really, this patch has hardly anything of real interest for NA and EU protoss, and certainly isn't a significant protoss buff. The protoss buffs are there, but they're pretty minor in practice and I doubt that they will shift the metagame at all. The nerfs on the other hand -- especially the blink nerf -- will have an impact.
I can't believe people are complaining that Infernal pre-igniter needs to be cheaper. 150/150 for units you can't run away from?
If that's the case, I think that overlord-carrying and banelings should be cheaper, so Zergs have an equally as powerful means to destroy an entire mineral line... Maybe we should make DTs spawn in pairs (like hellions) and the Dark shrine cost 150/100 (like a factory)....
I really like this nerf on BFH, and I hope it makes play a lot better so now you can't lose to 2 BFH in your mineral line.
I feel like the patch is going over better than any of the others. These are the type of background things that wont break anything but will all contribute to helping what the big picture problems are.
I don't really get why protoss players are so excited about these changes.
Because you're not thinking clearly.
Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go.
This is, frankly, stupid. A major part of the problem with Protoss right now is that they are really, really inflexible. One some of their units are viable in most situations, and all of their units are expensive. They are hugely reliant on T3, and their harass options suck at most stages of the game.They have a few effective general strats which T and Z have fairly well figured out right now, and most Toss are trying to innovate, but the problem is that they just don't have that many good units. As you say, even though the Robo tree gets you 4 units, currently only 2 are fully viable. Immortals have a very narrow timing window of not sucking, and then they are viable against only specific builds. Warp Prisms can be effective, but due to their fragility strats built around them can fall apart with the slightest misclick.
This addresses that issue. As was seen with both Roaches and Archons, range buffs are hugely beneficial to a Unit's overall effectiveness. Especially if, as with Immortals, they are both slow as hell and do insane dps once they get in range. Immortal+Zealot will hard-counter every single Roach-Ling all-in. Just park your Immortals behind your Zealots, watch the Lings get mauled as they try to get through the Zealots, while your Immortal sits safely in the back, sniping Roaches who can't hit back. An Immortal will also be much, much more useful in defending against 1/1/1 builds.
Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Uh....you do realize that FG used to have like twice as long a root effect right? And they cut it in half and bumped the dps accordingly, at which point it became insanely powerful?
The DPS FG did to armored was 100% the problem. I mean, the Root effect is nice and all, but that has always been there, and in fact used to be better. All that has changed to make them better is higher dps. Now it is still fairly high, but not quite as crazy. That definitely helps.
Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push.
How is it diminished? All of the stronger Blink rushes are built around hitting when +2 finishes, which is long after blink will finish pre or post patch. And nobody defends their base against DTs with Overseers anyway, they get like one spore crawler and let their queens do the rest.
P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf).
This is idiotic. Unless you are playing for money, which you are not because you clearly don't know what you're talking about, something being "balanced" doesn't mean shit if it isn't fun, and current PvP is a total coinflip, which is unfun. The Immortal buff and the vision changes put an end to 4-gate, the blink timing delay means it will hit to late to stop a robo from getting enough Immortals to hold it off, meaning that PvP early and midgame will stabilize around robo. However, in the lategame, Guardian shield now works vs. Colossi fire and stacks with Immortal shiels, which combined with their improved range means they can actually get close enough to snipe Colossi, meaning 1-base Colossi wars are likely over.
This is a good thing. A matchup built around coinflip BO wins which if it gets past that point turns into 1-base blink all-ins or Colossi wars 90% of the time, is stupid. Changing that is a good thing.
First off, your petulantly insulting attitude and ad-homs don't make your arguments stronger; they just make you sound like a kid with a chip on his shoulder (perhaps with the added benefit of allowing you to feel like a "big man" on an internet forum). Anyway:
In PvT, you need AOE to combat large bio-balls. If you attempt to form some kind of HT/immortal composition, then you're doubly vulnerable to EMP -- it trains templar mana and eliminates the immortal hardened shield bonus. Collosus are still much more valuable outside of a two-base bunker bust that leverages immortals.
In PvZ, you still can't usefully mass them like you can roaches because they're much more expensive and take much longer to build. The +1 helps a little by making it easier to micro the 3-4 immortals that you can reasonably get. You're not going to suddenly see giant immortal balls in PvZ because they take too long and too much to build and they're easily countered by a spire tech-switch without the support of large numbers of stalkers and/or HT.
If I were to try and rebalance the PvZ midgame by tweaking infestors, my first choice would not be to adjust FG damage. I might look at the perma-snare ability of spammed FG, or the fact that it's not possible to dodge it like storm can be dodged. But FG damage just isn't a big deal; zealots and archons take forever to damage appreciably with FG. Infested terrans are a much bigger issue; 5 infestors can lob 40 infested terrans at a nexus, which can do over 11,000 damage before they despawn -- enough to kill the nexus, any cannons, workers, and even your whole army if you don't have splash damage when they hit. I'm talking about Destiny's playstyle here.
On the blink nerf: So what if the flavor-of-the-month "best" blink build is unaffected by this nerf? Now protoss can't even represent the threat that they might attack prior to +2. The consequence is that zerg knows he can safely drone for longer. This also breaks one-base blink stalker play on XNC which is also popular. The blink nerf effectively rules out a wide variety of earlier-hitting blink-pressure builds, thereby making it easier for zergs to predict how long they can drone in safety.
As for your PvP comments, I can tell you aren't a protoss and that you're talking out of your ass there. The consequences for PvP at all but the very highest levels of play are negligible.
Really, this patch has hardly anything of real interest for NA and EU protoss, and certainly isn't a significant protoss buff.
Lol hypocrite much? While some of your points are true. You sound like as much of a child as that guy. If you think someone being a douche, replying in kind isnt the answer.
As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp.
Also lol at whoever said banes should be cheaper. If u want an awesome far too cheap unit, you have the roach But seriously, how cheaper? less gas? they also cost fuck all. Less min? Again fuck all. They dont even take up supply.
On August 26 2011 04:38 Squigly wrote: As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp.
You show me how you avoid getting the two of the slowest units in the game EMPed... Immortal/HT was bad before and it will be bad after 1.4. The immortal buff doesn't suddenly make them good vs ghosts lol.
Nevertheless I expect more gateway/immortal/colossus-compositions, as the terran can't reasonably build both vikings and ghosts in high numbers early enough.
On August 26 2011 04:38 Squigly wrote: As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp.
You show me how you avoid getting the two of the slowest units in the game EMPed... Immortal/HT was bad before and it will be bad after 1.4. The immortal buff doesn't suddenly make them good vs ghosts lol.
Nevertheless I expect more gateway/immortal/colossus-compositions, as the terran can't reasonably build both vikings and ghosts in high numbers early enough.
Agreed -- if you manage to get 5 colossus in your army, more isn't really useful. At that point it might be better to add immortals if you already have sufficient numbers of observers (i.e. because the terran isn't killing them). This kind of impact is what I mean by "minor buff" -- immortals are now a better choice in a lategame circumstance that I rarely see in pro PvT matches. In the common case most of the game is spent struggling to maintain that 5 colossus count while keeping sufficient observers on the field.
Barracks change is imo to give P +5sec vs banshees and another +5 sec vs the double rax follow up in the 1/1/1 allin (go 1/1/1 then add 2rax). I also think that every little bit can hellp vs 2rax, because I don't see 2rax (in TvZ) having either the coinflip character of other superearly pushes, nor the backfiring of an allin build. I like it
Hellion Prigniter change... Hm, I don't know about that. Maybe a bit premature, yet I think it might have less of an impact on ZvT is one might think (just consider TLO is already not using prigniter in mech play, because zerglings will die to either anyway to 10usual hellions or sieged tanks), so I guess this will have more of an impact on TvT... Maybe to make Tank/Marine equal to Mech??? I guess we will have to wait and see how it turns out.
Immortal and Wap Prism Pretty much exactly what I think had to be done. Better Immortals vs 1/1/1 AND finally making the warp prism a little tougher, so drop harrass doesn't happen with a paperplane now...
Seeker Missile Let's wait if it gets useful and maybe even OP in the latgame if you can mass up Ravens...
Mohtership Great that they finally try to fix the lagbug... Little buff in movement is OK, I think. It was always too clumpy in my eyes...
Stalker Yeah, can I cross of blink allin from my "what protoss can do of 1base" list of a thousand and one cheeses now? But I guess this will mostly affect PvP and in that way further strengthen the robo. Also I think with the Archon buff, the twilight techroute seemed just superior to robo in a lot of cases (apart from observers ofc). So I think this is OK. (though I would have liked a small stalker nerf, at least move 1-2dmg to the +armored section... Might have made hydras more worth playing)
Ultralisk Did it really happen? I guess every zerg in the world has waited for something like this since the beta... "go hive---wait---go ultra den---wait---go ultras... hold out a little longer... PLEASE... yeah now Im dead with 6ultras in production which will spawn from everywhere to get picked apart from everything one by one..." Also with the Infestor nerf, the Ultra needed a buff, as it is completly unplayable in any matchup without infestor support right now...
Overseer Yes, finally... As the Overseer was concipated as a caster, but it's spells just suck, it needed a change. Either in cost or in purpose. With it being only a anticloak unit right now, I think the costchange was the right one to go for. The contamination change... Well contaminate was bad and will stay bad, but the energy increase had to come, because else mass overseer for 50gas might have been an OP option...
Now the biggy: Infestor Hard, hard nerf... I don't know about that. Unstimmed marines with shield and medivac support will survive 2 fungals now... Maybe something had to be done, but Infestors recently went from hardly playable to powerful/fast to powerful/slow and now?
Allinall summary: Protoss rushes get weaker once again, while their endgame gets stronger once again (4gate nerf but Archon buff, Blink research nerf but Immortal/Warp Prism buff) Terran got only some adjustments in my eyes. Zerg got some long demanded changes (Ultralisk, Overseer), maybe to keep them a little more quite about the Infestornerf?
Opinion: I wish they had nerfed the Infestor but altered/buffed the hydralisk, so the hydralisk could finally overtake it's designed role from the Infestor: background damage dealer. Terrans Snipe Micro should have become slightly easier in my eyes, rather then hardbuffing the Missile... I think Terran has enough options for everything without a strong HSM, rather emphazise what they got! For Protoss: I love the Robobuffs for the lower tier units, but I think they should have nerfed the colossus a little bit with this, because the robotech might go from: "I want colossi and observer" to: "I want harass/observer/immortals but you still have to consider that I still will have a free win if you don't have corruptor/vikings if I go colossi" (especially as the infestor nerf will passivebuff colossi in PvZ... And I really don't think colossi needed a buff)
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
I think thats race design though... I do guess its true in some ways however...
Yes it's race design. But (like every season) we have 5 Terrans in the top 8 of the GSL... One could argue that at the highest level of play Terran might be the easiest race (notice: easiest, not strongest!)
I love all the changes except 5 sec more on rax (wtf) and immortal range. Those buggers already ass rape face. DPS of sieged tanks, that can move, hard to kill, and attack faster sans splash.
No thank you on the range =(
Ohhhh and oohhh cheaper overseers is gay IMO. Already hard to clear the overlords around... now cloakshees have no place what so ever in TvZ and they can get them MUCH much easier, without worrying about gas cost.
Now the biggy: Infestor Hard, hard nerf... I don't know about that. Unstimmed marines with shield and medivac support will survive 2 fungals now... Maybe something had to be done, but Infestors recently went from hardly playable to powerful/fast to powerful/slow and now?
infestors got their speed nerfed the same time they got their buff, we never had a powerful/fast infestor. also, I'd like to see more of HT kinda of nerf on the infestor, this way zergs cant feel safe making 11 infestors at once, they have to do it slowly.
Now the biggy: Infestor Hard, hard nerf... I don't know about that. Unstimmed marines with shield and medivac support will survive 2 fungals now... Maybe something had to be done, but Infestors recently went from hardly playable to powerful/fast to powerful/slow and now?
infestors got their speed nerfed the same time they got their buff, we never had a powerful/fast infestor. also, I'd like to see more of HT kinda of nerf on the infestor, this way zergs cant feel safe making 11 infestors at once, they have to do it slowly.
nope, the speedchange came some weeks(?) later. I think the buff was 1.3.3 (big patch) and the nerf 1.3.4 (small patch) or something like that.
With Barracks change i dont know how i am suposed to stop canon rush, 6 pool or proxy 2 gate? only way i can thing about is walling at bottom ramp, but it have other flaws ...... I just hope this 1 dont make it on live realm.
Other changes seems ok, but raven´s seeker missile suck and speed increase wont change it
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
We're probably going to see even SOONER Hellion harass; not having to wait for blueflame considering it's going to require the same amount as unupgraded, save 50/150, go with 3 hellions.
On August 26 2011 05:22 Fik-cz wrote: With Barracks change i dont know how i am suposed to stop canon rush, 6 pool or proxy 2 gate? only way i can thing about is walling at bottom ramp, but it have other flaws ...... I just hope this 1 dont make it on live realm.
Other changes seems ok, but raven´s seeker missile suck and speed increase wont change it
The same way as always, I guess? It's 5sec... not 20! I don't know how you could hold against those builds right now on Xel'Naga Caverns, if you think you have a general problem now...
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
This is ridiculous. Terrans are also under represented in diamond and platinum. I suppose you're going to suggest that they're all in masters as well?
your data suggests that all races are equal in masters...first off...
while true that they're underrepresented in diamond/plat
and over represented in GM >_>
while i dont think balance in lower leagues>> balance on pro lvl, the notion that all races have equal representation in master league indicates that its balanced in master league is just false. of all the races zerg has the lowest amount of players(the lower leagues are more populous then the higher leagues and the percentage of players in the lower leagues that are zerg is quite alot lower then the other races(bronze and silver combined is about 52 percent of the player base and zerg has about 22 percent of all the players in those leagues) because the zerg player pool is smaller in general you would expect zergs to have a lower percentage of players in all leagues wich is not the case(the amount of zerg masters/gm's/diamonds/plats are very close to the amount of toss'es and terrans).
for clearer example just saying 1/3 of the master players is race x doesnt neceserily indicate balance. lets say 1/1000th of the total player base plays race x and 1/3 of master and GM plays race x then clearly thats unbalanced(pretty much all race x's players are promoting to the highest leagues).
ps I dont want to say zerg is imbalanced this was just a thread about interpreting those race statistics, but with stastics there are always other possible explanations, as in this case another explanation could be: newbie players are more likely to start off as protoss or terran as they could have tried out those races in the campaign, and newbies are more likely to be in bronze or silver hence the lower amount of zerg.
On August 26 2011 05:22 Fik-cz wrote: With Barracks change i dont know how i am suposed to stop canon rush, 6 pool or proxy 2 gate? only way i can thing about is walling at bottom ramp, but it have other flaws ...... I just hope this 1 dont make it on live realm.
Other changes seems ok, but raven´s seeker missile suck and speed increase wont change it
If you're concerned about completing your wall-off in time, can't you have a second SCV build the second depot at the top of your ramp while your barracks is still in-progress? You'll still have the minerals for the second depot in time; it's just that the rax finishes 5 seconds later, right?
On August 26 2011 04:38 Squigly wrote: As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp.
You show me how you avoid getting the two of the slowest units in the game EMPed... Immortal/HT was bad before and it will be bad after 1.4. The immortal buff doesn't suddenly make them good vs ghosts lol.
Nevertheless I expect more gateway/immortal/colossus-compositions, as the terran can't reasonably build both vikings and ghosts in high numbers early enough.
Use a now sturdy warp prism to move HT whitera style
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
This is ridiculous. Terrans are also under represented in diamond and platinum. I suppose you're going to suggest that they're all in masters as well?
your data suggests that all races are equal in masters...first off...
while true that they're underrepresented in diamond/plat
and over represented in GM >_>
while i dont think balance in lower leagues>> balance on pro lvl, the notion that all races have equal representation in master league indicates that its balanced in master league is just false. of all the races zerg has the lowest amount of players(the lower leagues are more populous then the higher leagues and the percentage of players in the lower leagues that are zerg is quite alot lower then the other races(bronze and silver combined is about 52 percent of the player base and zerg has about 22 percent of all the players in those leagues) because the zerg player pool is smaller in general you would expect zergs to have a lower percentage of players in all leagues wich is not the case(the amount of zerg masters/gm's/diamonds/plats are very close to the amount of toss'es and terrans).
for clearer example just saying 1/3 of the master players is race x doesnt neceserily indicate balance. lets say 1/1000th of the total player base plays race x and 1/3 of master and GM plays race x then clearly thats unbalanced(pretty much all race x's players are promoting to the highest leagues).
ps I dont want to say zerg is imbalanced this was just a thread about interpreting those race statistics, but with stastics there are always other possible explanations, as in this case another explanation could be: newbie players are more likely to start off as protoss or terran as they could have tried out those races in the campaign, and newbies are more likely to be in bronze or silver hence the lower amount of zerg.
Um... my comment wasn't so much about the interpretation of the data so much as the innacuracy of report of that data.... Sorry if you took it that way. I agree that equal race representation isn't an indicator of balance....
On August 26 2011 04:38 Squigly wrote: As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp.
You show me how you avoid getting the two of the slowest units in the game EMPed... Immortal/HT was bad before and it will be bad after 1.4. The immortal buff doesn't suddenly make them good vs ghosts lol.
Nevertheless I expect more gateway/immortal/colossus-compositions, as the terran can't reasonably build both vikings and ghosts in high numbers early enough.
Use a now sturdy warp prism to move HT whitera style
That's a good practice.
However interestingly enough the new "sturdiness" of the warp prism is all in shield points, and we're talking about how HT/immortal fares against a ghost-heavy composition.... One EMP depletes all of the prism shields. The prism is also built from the robo bay and so competes with immortals and observers for build time in this hypothetical HT/immortal composition. It's better than it was, but that robo build time is still better spent on collosus that can just focus down the ghosts from range and make it safer to bring up your HT.
It's analogous to giving the reaper +1 range. Sure, it's nice in some niche circumstances. But no terran is going to waste rax time on pumping out a ton of reapers in the midgame or lategame because marines and marauders are just better in almost every circumstance.
Maybe some day if all of the flying units -- including observers and warp prisms -- are produced from the starport, there will be more room for producing immortals and warp prisms.
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
We're probably going to see even SOONER Hellion harass; not having to wait for blueflame considering it's going to require the same amount as unupgraded, save 50/150, go with 3 hellions.
Well, the +5 sec on the rax will slow the hellion harass by at least 5 seconds. So, as a zerg, I can always look forward to that.
On August 26 2011 04:38 Squigly wrote: As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp.
You show me how you avoid getting the two of the slowest units in the game EMPed... Immortal/HT was bad before and it will be bad after 1.4. The immortal buff doesn't suddenly make them good vs ghosts lol.
Nevertheless I expect more gateway/immortal/colossus-compositions, as the terran can't reasonably build both vikings and ghosts in high numbers early enough.
Use a now sturdy warp prism to move HT whitera style
That's a good practice.
However interestingly enough the new "sturdiness" of the warp prism is all in shield points, and we're talking about how HT/immortal fares against a ghost-heavy composition.... One EMP depletes all of the prism shields. The prism is also built from the robo bay and so competes with immortals and observers for build time in this hypothetical HT/immortal composition. It's better than it was, but that robo build time is still better spent on collosus that can just focus down the ghosts from range and make it safer to bring up your HT.
It's analogous to giving the reaper +1 range. Sure, it's nice in some niche circumstances. But no terran is going to waste rax time on pumping out a ton of reapers in the midgame or lategame because marines and marauders are just better in almost every circumstance.
Maybe some day if all of the flying units -- including observers and warp prisms -- are produced from the starport, there will be more room for producing immortals and warp prisms.
People who prefer the HT into Colossi play-style the Warp Prism shuttling HTs will still serve a purpose as you transition into double robo colossi when ghost numbers start getting out of control late game. It undoubtably improves drop play for protoss. More than anything the buff will cause a lot of the top players to re-examine drop play and warp prism use in general which is a good thing.
On August 26 2011 04:38 Squigly wrote: As for the HT immortal comment, If you let all you immortals AND HT empd, well, you got outmicrod so hard your gonna lose anyways no matter your comp.
You show me how you avoid getting the two of the slowest units in the game EMPed... Immortal/HT was bad before and it will be bad after 1.4. The immortal buff doesn't suddenly make them good vs ghosts lol.
Nevertheless I expect more gateway/immortal/colossus-compositions, as the terran can't reasonably build both vikings and ghosts in high numbers early enough.
Use a now sturdy warp prism to move HT whitera style
That's a good practice.
However interestingly enough the new "sturdiness" of the warp prism is all in shield points, and we're talking about how HT/immortal fares against a ghost-heavy composition.... One EMP depletes all of the prism shields. The prism is also built from the robo bay and so competes with immortals and observers for build time in this hypothetical HT/immortal composition. It's better than it was, but that robo build time is still better spent on collosus that can just focus down the ghosts from range and make it safer to bring up your HT.
It's analogous to giving the reaper +1 range. Sure, it's nice in some niche circumstances. But no terran is going to waste rax time on pumping out a ton of reapers in the midgame or lategame because marines and marauders are just better in almost every circumstance.
Maybe some day if all of the flying units -- including observers and warp prisms -- are produced from the starport, there will be more room for producing immortals and warp prisms.
Or maybe a second robo? Just to get more immortals (instead of stalkers), because they have the same prize (*2) and with good warp prisms... you will want to have more of them too...
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
There are both MORE and better terrans in Korea than the other races. It's only natural for their over-representation. Every single A-team BW player that has moved to SC2 is a terran.
On August 26 2011 06:01 Squigly wrote: Yea i dont know why P dont ever get a second robo, they always say they can afford stuff but dont have robo time
Double robo is pretty standard later on.
There are both MORE and better terrans in Korea than the other races. It's only natural for their over-representation. Every single A-team BW player that has moved to SC2 is a terran.
My best guess is that the +1 immortal range is actually balanced against the decreased ultralisk build time rather than anything going on in the current state of the game. In early- and mid-game scenarios you only have 3 or 4 immortals to micro and it's not that hard to keep them in a firing position. Late game you could end up with a large number of immortals to counter ultralisks; in that case the +1 range may be significant.
It looks like the ultralisk build time reduction is a ZvT balance fix, so I guess blizzard is throwing in the +1 range boost for immortals to try and keep ultras from taking over the lategame of ZvP.
It would be so much easier if they would just let the units have slightly different attributes in each matchup so that they could balance them independently instead of all this complex three-way balancing.
I don't really get why protoss players are so excited about these changes.
Because you're not thinking clearly.
Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go.
This is, frankly, stupid. A major part of the problem with Protoss right now is that they are really, really inflexible. One some of their units are viable in most situations, and all of their units are expensive. They are hugely reliant on T3, and their harass options suck at most stages of the game.They have a few effective general strats which T and Z have fairly well figured out right now, and most Toss are trying to innovate, but the problem is that they just don't have that many good units. As you say, even though the Robo tree gets you 4 units, currently only 2 are fully viable. Immortals have a very narrow timing window of not sucking, and then they are viable against only specific builds. Warp Prisms can be effective, but due to their fragility strats built around them can fall apart with the slightest misclick.
This addresses that issue. As was seen with both Roaches and Archons, range buffs are hugely beneficial to a Unit's overall effectiveness. Especially if, as with Immortals, they are both slow as hell and do insane dps once they get in range. Immortal+Zealot will hard-counter every single Roach-Ling all-in. Just park your Immortals behind your Zealots, watch the Lings get mauled as they try to get through the Zealots, while your Immortal sits safely in the back, sniping Roaches who can't hit back. An Immortal will also be much, much more useful in defending against 1/1/1 builds.
Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Uh....you do realize that FG used to have like twice as long a root effect right? And they cut it in half and bumped the dps accordingly, at which point it became insanely powerful?
The DPS FG did to armored was 100% the problem. I mean, the Root effect is nice and all, but that has always been there, and in fact used to be better. All that has changed to make them better is higher dps. Now it is still fairly high, but not quite as crazy. That definitely helps.
Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push.
How is it diminished? All of the stronger Blink rushes are built around hitting when +2 finishes, which is long after blink will finish pre or post patch. And nobody defends their base against DTs with Overseers anyway, they get like one spore crawler and let their queens do the rest.
P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf).
This is idiotic. Unless you are playing for money, which you are not because you clearly don't know what you're talking about, something being "balanced" doesn't mean shit if it isn't fun, and current PvP is a total coinflip, which is unfun. The Immortal buff and the vision changes put an end to 4-gate, the blink timing delay means it will hit to late to stop a robo from getting enough Immortals to hold it off, meaning that PvP early and midgame will stabilize around robo. However, in the lategame, Guardian shield now works vs. Colossi fire and stacks with Immortal shiels, which combined with their improved range means they can actually get close enough to snipe Colossi, meaning 1-base Colossi wars are likely over.
This is a good thing. A matchup built around coinflip BO wins which if it gets past that point turns into 1-base blink all-ins or Colossi wars 90% of the time, is stupid. Changing that is a good thing.
First off, your petulantly insulting attitude and ad-homs don't make your arguments stronger; they just make you sound like a kid with a chip on his shoulder (perhaps with the added benefit of allowing you to feel like a "big man" on an internet forum). Anyway:
In PvT, you need AOE to combat large bio-balls. If you attempt to form some kind of HT/immortal composition, then you're doubly vulnerable to EMP -- it both drains templar mana and eliminates the immortal hardened shield bonus. Collosus are still much more valuable outside of a two-base bunker bust that leverages immortals. Immortal range is not at all the issue with 1-1-1; it's the massive DPS of balled marines. Immortals have no trouble getting in range of the tanks; they have trouble standing up to marine DPS.
In PvZ, you still can't usefully mass them like you can roaches because they're much more expensive and take much longer to build. The +1 helps a little by making it easier to micro the 3-4 immortals that you can reasonably get. You're not going to suddenly see giant immortal balls in PvZ because they take too long and too much to build and they're easily countered by a spire tech-switch without the support of large numbers of stalkers and/or HT.
If I were to try and rebalance the PvZ midgame by tweaking infestors, my first choice would not be to adjust FG damage. I might look at the perma-snare ability of spammed FG, or the fact that it's not possible to dodge it like storm can be dodged. But FG damage just isn't a big deal; zealots and archons take forever to damage appreciably with FG. Infested terrans are a much bigger issue; 5 infestors can lob 40 infested terrans at a nexus, which can do over 11,000 damage before they despawn -- enough to kill the nexus, any cannons, workers, and even your whole army if you don't have splash damage when they hit. I'm talking about Destiny's playstyle here.
On the blink nerf: So what if the flavor-of-the-month "best" blink build is unaffected by this nerf? Now protoss can't even represent the threat that they might attack prior to +2. The consequence is that zerg knows he can safely drone for longer. This also breaks one-base blink stalker play on XNC which is also popular. The blink nerf effectively rules out a wide variety of earlier-hitting blink-pressure builds, thereby making it easier for zergs to predict how long they can drone in safety.
As for your PvP comments, I can tell you aren't a protoss and that you're talking out of your ass there. The consequences for PvP at all but the very highest levels of play are negligible.
Really, this patch has hardly anything of real interest for NA and EU protoss, and certainly isn't a significant protoss buff. The protoss buffs are there, but they're pretty minor in practice and I doubt that they will shift the metagame at all. The nerfs on the other hand -- especially the blink nerf -- will have an impact.
When you built a second robo you still use it for the more valuable robo units.
How many rax does terran have to build before they get enough rax production to start building reapers out of a few of them? It never happens because reapers are niche units and no matter how many rax you have, you'll always build marines, marauders and ghosts after the early game. It's the same logic with robos: no matter how many you have, it's better to build colossus and observers. Unless as I noted above you get ~5 colossus and ~5 observers out on the map; then you can throw in immortals and warp prisms. But I've rarely seen a protoss achieve that.
Only usable? I think the Koreans at the GSL and the recent "Slayers Hellion Trend" proved that hellions are INSANELY strong against any race.
You understand that with "usable" I mean as good as standard builds, right? And honestly, even that is overselling it, mech just flat out isn't as good as the the standard TvP build, and it's "meh" compared to marine/tank in TvZ. It only works better when opponents just aren't countering it properly (which is pretty common now because it's pretty new). The only matchup it truely excels in (aka replaces the standard build) is TvT.
I hate the blink nerf for PvP. I loved blink builds, the micro battle was fun. That, along with immortal buff and vision-nerf will just make it robo vs robo, eventually into colossus spam-fest; the very reason I go blink stalkers. It seems a much safer bet than SG openings anyhow...
Love how people keep praising the HSM speed buff LOL, with golden comments like "I will be so scared of ravens from now on!". Ok.... right.
I think rax build time increase is rediculous, Will they have to do 11rax to compensate or what?
On August 26 2011 06:10 galivet wrote: When you built a second robo you still use it for the more valuable robo units.
How many rax does terran have to build before they get enough rax production to start building reapers out of a few of them? It never happens because reapers are niche units and no matter how many rax you have, you'll always build marines, marauders and ghosts after the early game. It's the same logic with robos: no matter how many you have, it's better to build colossus and observers. Unless as I noted above you get ~5 colossus and ~5 observers out on the map; then you can throw in immortals and warp prisms. But I've rarely seen a protoss achieve that.
You build as many warp prisms as you need, you don't spam them out. No different to BW.
I hate the blink nerf for PvP. I loved blink builds, the micro battle was fun. That, along with immortal buff and vision-nerf will just make it robo vs robo, eventually into colossus spam-fest; the very reason I go blink stalkers. It seems a much safer bet than SG openings anyhow...
The GS fix, and the immortal/warp prism buffs, will make collosi much worse in PvP. Not to mention stargate tech.
I don't know what to think about the Ultralisk's change.
To the good zergs out there (let's say..masters ?) : Do you use Ultralisks in your games ? If not, why ? And do you think this patch (-15 sec build time) will change anything about that ?
im pretty sure the whole vision up cliffs thing realllllly helps in tal darim altar le. protoss can barely poke up and warp right beside my damn command center and its so annoying! hopefully this fixed that up a bit
I hate the blink nerf for PvP. I loved blink builds, the micro battle was fun. That, along with immortal buff and vision-nerf will just make it robo vs robo, eventually into colossus spam-fest; the very reason I go blink stalkers. It seems a much safer bet than SG openings anyhow...
The GS fix, and the immortal/warp prism buffs, will make collosi much worse in PvP. Not to mention stargate tech.
How are immortals going to be taking down colossus in PvP?
A one-base colossus push is usually zealot-heavy. How are the immortals going to get in range of the colossus with all of those zealots in the way? The colossus does still have the longer range by far and it can cliff-walk away from any immortals that somehow get close.
Meanwhile the guy who is building a large number of immortals has nothing to do splash damage against his opponent's zealots...and zealots do great versus immortals.
On August 26 2011 06:27 galivet wrote: How are immortals going to be taking down colossus in PvP?
A one-base colossus push is usually zealot-heavy. How are the immortals going to get in range of the colossus with all of those zealots in the way? The colossus does still have the longer range by far and it can cliff-walk away from any immortals that somehow get close.
Meanwhile the guy who is building a large number of immortals has nothing to do splash damage against his opponent's zealots...and zealots do great versus immortals.
With a warp prism that handily also got buffed
Toooons of colossi will still melt anything on the ground, but the changes slow down that point to like 5+ colossi. That makes going collo both more risky, and opens you up to a simple tech switch to air from your opponent.
Also one might actually be able to expand without a 2collo push killing you which would be nice !
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
We're probably going to see even SOONER Hellion harass; not having to wait for blueflame considering it's going to require the same amount as unupgraded, save 50/150, go with 3 hellions.
Well, the +5 sec on the rax will slow the hellion harass by at least 5 seconds. So, as a zerg, I can always look forward to that.
The 5s on barracks will have no impact at all on standard factory timings, as you wait for the gas anyway, not the barracks completion.
On August 26 2011 06:27 galivet wrote: How are immortals going to be taking down colossus in PvP?
A one-base colossus push is usually zealot-heavy. How are the immortals going to get in range of the colossus with all of those zealots in the way? The colossus does still have the longer range by far and it can cliff-walk away from any immortals that somehow get close.
Meanwhile the guy who is building a large number of immortals has nothing to do splash damage against his opponent's zealots...and zealots do great versus immortals.
With a warp prism that handily also got buffed
If that were true then we'd be seeing that tactic in play already. If your plan is to use prisms drop immortals on top of colossus, then the +1 range isn't doing anything for you.
It's funny how people's minds seem to work. Is this how you think?
1. I don't like colossus-centric PvP 2. Immortals got buffed. 3. The new immortals must counter colossus-heavy PvP styles!
Or,
1. 1-1-1 tank/banshee is overpowered! 2. Immortals got buffed. 3. The new immortals must be Blizzard's answer to stopping 1-1-1! Thanks blizzard!
On August 26 2011 06:12 KaiserJohan wrote: I hate the blink nerf for PvP. I loved blink builds, the micro battle was fun. That, along with immortal buff and vision-nerf will just make it robo vs robo, eventually into colossus spam-fest; the very reason I go blink stalkers. It seems a much safer bet than SG openings anyhow...
Love how people keep praising the HSM speed buff LOL, with golden comments like "I will be so scared of ravens from now on!". Ok.... right.
I think rax build time increase is rediculous, Will they have to do 11rax to compensate or what?
I'm guessing blink will still be standard in PvP, but u will probably have to open robo first. Which dosen't change too much as most ppl go RoboTwilight nowadays. It just makes the blink all-in probably not viable (which u may care about)
On August 26 2011 06:42 galivet wrote: If that were true then we'd be seeing that tactic in play already. If your plan is to use prisms drop immortals on top of colossus, then the +1 range isn't doing anything for you.
It is but it's risky with prisms being so weak. It's also only really available for a small timing, eg a 2 collo push. Hopefully that timing is extended now. Don't need to drop on top either, indeed that's bad as zealots can attack you. Drop behind somewhere.
It's funny how people's minds seem to work. Is this how you think?
No..
Immortals have always countered low numbers of collo. If you don't get a sentry when rushing collo, an immortal user can push and kill you. All I'm saying is that with improvements to immortal and its shuttle, and a nerf/fix to collo (GS splash thing), that makes the relationship just a little more in favor of immortal. That makes War of the Worlds less viable.
On August 26 2011 06:21 Lasbike wrote: I don't know what to think about the Ultralisk's change.
To the good zergs out there (let's say..masters ?) : Do you use Ultralisks in your games ? If not, why ? And do you think this patch (-15 sec build time) will change anything about that ?
so people like me I guess Yes Im using ultralisks right now in ZvT and ZvP, but only very lategame, when I already have 10+ Infestors and need a unit that is good with infestors. So either banelings, ultras or Broodlords. (depending on what you want exactly... generally broodlords, but on open maps where you need more mobility Ultras, and against bio banelings)
As is right now, you can't have Ultras in time to defend with them and you can only "rush" them (13min mark is the earliest you can plant your ultra den I think) if you go like pure zergling into mass infestor into fast hive, which is a quite vulnerable style. As I see pure Ultras right now, they are on T3 tech, but behave like T2.5... They are neither unique (roaches fill a similar role) nor strong on their own, so at the time you go hive, you don't really want Ultras, because they are barely ever what you need. I would even go as far as to make the ultra den cheaper, if I were blizzard, as all the standard compositions deal with ultras fairly well (zealots/archons/blink stalkers are OK, immortals, void rays, dts very good; marines, tanks, thors OK, marauder very good; roaches good) and early Infestor/Ultra is undoable due to gascosts. I guess those are just my 2c's but I believe a lot of zerg players don't use ultras at all...
I honestly can't see the Ultralisk change making the slightest bit of difference, especially when you consider that you can make a dozen of them at the same time anyway.
On August 26 2011 07:00 branflakes14 wrote: I honestly can't see the Ultralisk change making the slightest bit of difference, especially when you consider that you can make a dozen of them at the same time anyway.
Remaxing on ultras gets you them 15s earlier. Pretty significant.
Well it seems pretty awesome that were going to get more units becoming viable. Personally when I play ZvT lategame, Ultra's always seemed like a cool option if you are already 3-3 upgrades with the +2 ultra armour, 15 ingame seconds faster for the ultra to get out is pretty awesome.
On August 25 2011 22:33 Huntz wrote: Does anyone actually know if the guardian shield bug fix is a buff? What's to say it wasn't reducing damage more than it should have?
Well, you could be right, but I'm pretty sure Guardian Shield is meant to be better against Siege Tanks because of the 1/1/1. Then again, what do I know..
I really do like how the immortal isn't completely useless anymore. It won't get kited to death or stuck behind stuff. It also pretty much shuts down mass Thors without ghost shenanigans since Toss won't have to throw down 2 stargates and go big air.
It can kinda go after colossus too. Its too bad we probably won't see probably still won't see WP immortal micro..
On August 26 2011 06:21 Lasbike wrote: I don't know what to think about the Ultralisk's change.
To the good zergs out there (let's say..masters ?) : Do you use Ultralisks in your games ? If not, why ? And do you think this patch (-15 sec build time) will change anything about that ?
I think it's purely for reinforcing, 15 seconds is ridiculously significant in a push, especially against Protoss. Sometimes you get into a situation where you think they take way too long to spawn and just spam roaches. As a man that uses Ultras in PvZ, I am pretty happy about it.
On August 25 2011 19:26 Scheme wrote: 3 BFH still one shot workers tho, so no difference in harassement!
No 2 bfh would one short workers.
Hellion do 8 dmg + 6 vs light with bfh being only 5 pt added thats 19 dmg 19x2 = 38 < 40 so you would need 3 to one shot, maybe I got some numbers wrong?
My point is that people drop with 4 hellion anyway so there shouldnt be too much difference...perhaps the damage will be less to which people will find its an acceptable level of harassement.
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
Do you realize that for an average unit (most that don't do splash), to upgrade their attack +1-2 damage it costs more than that 150/150. The blue flame upgrade is still great.
Warp prism not made of wet paper bag, immortal not so infuriating to micro alongside stalkers, and guardian shield buffed/bugfixed? Yay!
I like pretty much everything but I think BFH should be 100/100 now that the damage increase is less.
I wish they would make that stupid carrier instalaunch upgrade be automatic like in SC1, and decrease carrier build time by 10-20s. That's all it would take to make them semi-viable and nobody would call it imba.
Actually, a good Zealot wall with an Immortal behind it will be all but impenetrable vs. Roach-Ling, since the Lings cant get past the Zealots, and the Immortal can sit comfortably behind them sniping Roaches.
I generally go +1+1 mass pure ling w bane nest 'just in case'.pretty sure that would rock any zlot immo timing
On August 25 2011 19:36 rpgalon wrote: the Immortal +1 range and the blink 30+ seconds research is going to fuck PvP, I don't see both going through the PTR.
they should have buffed phoenix graviton beam instead of the immortal, making graviton beam 25 energy vs light units, it would make phoenix a great harras and counter to the 1-1-1, it would not make hydras useless since you need 1 phoenix for each hydra (energy is not a problem) while you need 1 phoenix for each 3-4 marines (energy IS a problem).
Increased immortal range makes them more viable against stalkers. Later blink gives you time to respond to ridiculous blink micro. Essentially, they just made PvP more playable.
I actually love every change in the PTR, not because it suits my own play (because the Blink change does not suit my style, I love 1 base Blink!) but because I think it actually goes a long way in addressing some fundamental problems with the game.
On August 25 2011 19:36 rpgalon wrote: the Immortal +1 range and the blink 30+ seconds research is going to fuck PvP, I don't see both going through the PTR.
they should have buffed phoenix graviton beam instead of the immortal, making graviton beam 25 energy vs light units, it would make phoenix a great harras and counter to the 1-1-1, it would not make hydras useless since you need 1 phoenix for each hydra (energy is not a problem) while you need 1 phoenix for each 3-4 marines (energy IS a problem).
Increased immortal range makes them more viable against stalkers. Later blink gives you time to respond to ridiculous blink micro. Essentially, they just made PvP more playable.
It also means immortal pushes might be stronger against quick colossus because they have the same range before thermal lance and stargate openers will be more viable so it could change pvp quite a bit.
I love some of the changes to the other race. (Terran) Decreasing cost for overseer is great for zerg and matchups in general and i think is totally fair. Contaminate nerf is to compensate for this. Warp prism buff is a great idea to add variety to protoss play. Fungal nerf basically helps all races although it still burns marines the same way but at least vikings and i think ghosts will get take less which is super important.
I hate the rax time, there is a better way to address what they want without nerfing the whole race even if slightly. The blue flame is aweful, hurts mech just as mech was starting to take form. BFH was really unfair vs zerg as a timing atk, nerf the blue flame research time to stop that. Blue flame is not worth getting in its current form (except in full mech but probably as a 4 base research instead of 2 base) +1 mech will be better. It sucks that we lose blue flame hellion effectiveness massively just because of 1 imba timing attack against zerg.
On August 26 2011 00:23 spbelky wrote: Show nested quote + On August 25 2011 20:32 Psychobabas wrote: I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!! Do the math! :D
I'm just gonna requote this because i think it's that important.
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
Do you realize that for an average unit (most that don't do splash), to upgrade their attack +1-2 damage it costs more than that 150/150. The blue flame upgrade is still great.
It isnt great... its a 20% nerf to damage for a unit that attacks slow. Plus this is a specialized buff for the hellion, think about other specialized upgrades (stim, blink, ling speed, seige mode, storm) those add tremendous power. for blue flame its a 150/150 upgrade that hogs the techlab and increases damage only to light by 5 damage (30%). Stim by comparison is 100/100 and increases dmg and movement by 50%.
On August 26 2011 09:44 antz0r wrote: How is the no gas FE into 3 other naked rax going to fare against 3gate robo?
I don't see many terrans hold that kind of pressure, especially with the immortal range buff. That is what worries me the most with the barracks nerf, the timings are already as close at it is.
On August 26 2011 09:44 antz0r wrote: How is the no gas FE into 3 other naked rax going to fare against 3gate robo?
I don't see many terrans hold that kind of pressure, especially with the immortal range buff. That is what worries me the most with the barracks nerf, the timings are already as close at it is.
You do realise that it is a fast expand against a semi all-in... of course you are going to have difficulties holding it regardless of timings... if every fast expand can hold easily against a semi-all in, every game whether on the ladder or in pro play will just turn into long macro games, and where will be the variety in that? 0o
On August 26 2011 09:44 antz0r wrote: How is the no gas FE into 3 other naked rax going to fare against 3gate robo?
I don't see many terrans hold that kind of pressure, especially with the immortal range buff. That is what worries me the most with the barracks nerf, the timings are already as close at it is.
You do realise that it is a fast expand against a semi all-in... of course you are going to have difficulties holding it regardless of timings... if every fast expand can hold easily against a semi-all in, every game whether on the ladder or in pro play will just turn into long macro games, and where will be the variety in that? 0o
On August 26 2011 08:20 Keilah wrote: I wish they would make that stupid carrier instalaunch upgrade be automatic like in SC1, and decrease carrier build time by 10-20s. That's all it would take to make them semi-viable and nobody would call it imba.
Holding down the right mouse button over the "launch carrier" button turns on insta-cast for launching carriers, making it just like in SC1
About Seeker Missile meant as a splash damage spell:
I don't think it is. I'd argue it is there to THREATEN splash damage, but doesn't or shouldn't have to hit to be effective. Obvious examples would be firing one off at an oncoming wave of banelings, forcing them to retreat... forcing mutas to stop trying to kill an addon... cutting off a retreat path etc etc etc!
Seeker Missile can be used to provide positional advantages in the same way Nukes can, the obvious problems making them used less than nukes is the potency of PDD (why Missile when PDD almost always more effective), the fact that SM needs to be researched, and the fact that some of the positions you'd have to get in to fire these missiles are huge risks to take with a unit as slow and expensive as a raven.
On August 26 2011 00:23 spbelky wrote: Show nested quote + On August 25 2011 20:32 Psychobabas wrote: I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!! Do the math! :D
I'm just gonna requote this because i think it's that important.
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
Do you realize that for an average unit (most that don't do splash), to upgrade their attack +1-2 damage it costs more than that 150/150. The blue flame upgrade is still great.
It isnt great... its a 20% nerf to damage for a unit that attacks slow. Plus this is a specialized buff for the hellion, think about other specialized upgrades (stim, blink, ling speed, seige mode, storm) those add tremendous power. for blue flame its a 150/150 upgrade that hogs the techlab and increases damage only to light by 5 damage (30%). Stim by comparison is 100/100 and increases dmg and movement by 50%.
Are you suggesting that we increase Stim research cost to 200/200? That would make it more fair for terrans in general right? I always feel so bad when I research stim cos its simply way too cheap. Concussive shells should also be 150/100 in my opinion. What do you guys think?
I think the 5 second rax build time nerf has a purpose. It lowers the chances of a toss player getting his initial stalker caught by conc shells and in some cases outright losing the game.
This patch looks like all matchups are going to be kind of unstable for a while, since a lot of builds that are around will need some re-thinking. Overall very curious to see how these tweaks change things...
I think people forgotten that a stimmed marine does twice as much DPS as a blue flame hellion attacking a light units. Hellion got one of the WORST DPS in the game. They need to splash in order to make up for their shitty attack speed. This is going to be a nail in the coffin for mech in TvP (maybe TvZ as well?).
I hope they rework a bit BFH upgrade, it isn't just worth it. +5 to base damage instead of light could do, they do a shitty ass DPS anyway, and that way the 150/150 would be justified. Or simply make it 100/100, dunno
On August 26 2011 14:58 SheaR619 wrote: I think people forgotten that a stimmed marine does twice as much DPS as a blue flame hellion attacking a light units. Hellion got one of the WORST DPS in the game. They need to splash in order to make up for their shitty attack speed. This is going to be a nail in the coffin for mech in TvP (maybe TvZ as well?).
I pray you still somehow make mech work GoOdy
This is just out of context... A stimmed marine does more dps than an infestor does with fungal growth to light armor. What you should have typed is: Hellions got one of the worst singletarget dps in the game. But honestly, how often do you use a hellion to only fire at a single target? If you honestly thought blueflame hellion mineral line drops were perfectly balanced then I can positively identify you as a terran mech player :p
Mech will still work, only now you will need a few more hellions to melt a zealot line. I actually question wether this will be enough to put it on a fair level.
On August 26 2011 14:58 SheaR619 wrote: I think people forgotten that a stimmed marine does twice as much DPS as a blue flame hellion attacking a light units. Hellion got one of the WORST DPS in the game. They need to splash in order to make up for their shitty attack speed. This is going to be a nail in the coffin for mech in TvP (maybe TvZ as well?).
I pray you still somehow make mech work GoOdy
This is just out of context... A stimmed marine does more dps than an infestor does with fungal growth to light armor. What you should have typed is: Hellions got one of the worst singletarget dps in the game. But honestly, how often do you use a hellion to only fire at a single target? If you honestly thought blueflame hellion mineral line drops were perfectly balanced then I can positively identify you as a terran mech player :p
Mech will still work, only now you will need a few more hellions to melt a zealot line. I actually question wether this will be enough to put it on a fair level.
I can identify you as a player who have no idea what your talking about.
I'm always confused by how people say the bfh nerf will give you more time to react to hellions in the mineral lines. It doesn't mean terrans will actually take 50% longer to kill workers every time. Rather, it means terrans will have to attack with groups of 3 or 4 bfh instead of 2. Still a nice attempt to make them less dominant (personally I feel they have even more potential than what they are being used for so far), but the damage can still be done easily enough.
I don't think the blink change will matter much in pvz, the timing for that 7gate blink allin is limited by the minerals to get all those gateways up, worst case scenario is you delay 1 gateway by 30 seconds and maybe get second gas a little earlier, third gas a little later.
My only issue with this patch is that carriers didn't get a buff and i am not sure about the huge amount of time they took off of the ultra build time i think that will go back up some.
On August 26 2011 20:02 phyren wrote: I'm always confused by how people say the bfh nerf will give you more time to react to hellions in the mineral lines. It doesn't mean terrans will actually take 50% longer to kill workers every time. Rather, it means terrans will have to attack with groups of 3 or 4 bfh instead of 2. Still a nice attempt to make them less dominant (personally I feel they have even more potential than what they are being used for so far), but the damage can still be done easily enough.
Well consider the following scenario. A hatchery defended by 2 spine crawlers in the mineral line and a queen is attacked by 4 BFH.
Pre-patch: spines and queens might kill 1 hellion reasonably fast, and then another hellion after they have taken their first shot and killed a batch of drones. A dispatch of lings are sent to defend, but sadly the 2 hellions that are left have already killed their cost worth.
Post-patch: spines and queens will still kill that one hellion before much damage can be done, and the 3 remaining hellions will kill the same amount of drones before the 2nd hellion falls. But the last 2 hellions will need to take an additional shot at the drones now in order to kill them, allowing the lings precious seconds to reinforce and kill off the threat.
Its not much, and I personally would've rather seen hellion speed reduced or its splash range / splash rate reduced. But I'll take what I can get; this will make anti hellion defense just a tiny bit more bearable.
I don't understand why the OP thinks the vision range up ramps will change scouting in a bad way. For all I know (from what I understood), the units down the ramp will have an extra range free of vision from the units up the ramp, so that's better for scouting?
On August 26 2011 20:20 Tschis wrote: I don't understand why the OP thinks the vision range up ramps will change scouting in a bad way. For all I know (from what I understood), the units down the ramp will have an extra range free of vision from the units up the ramp, so that's better for scouting?
The other way around: units poking up ramps will see 1 range less than they do currently. So spotting e.g. a terran expansion building with a probe or drone/ling will be more difficult.
On August 26 2011 14:58 SheaR619 wrote: I think people forgotten that a stimmed marine does twice as much DPS as a blue flame hellion attacking a light units. Hellion got one of the WORST DPS in the game. They need to splash in order to make up for their shitty attack speed. This is going to be a nail in the coffin for mech in TvP (maybe TvZ as well?).
I pray you still somehow make mech work GoOdy
This is just out of context... A stimmed marine does more dps than an infestor does with fungal growth to light armor. What you should have typed is: Hellions got one of the worst singletarget dps in the game. But honestly, how often do you use a hellion to only fire at a single target? If you honestly thought blueflame hellion mineral line drops were perfectly balanced then I can positively identify you as a terran mech player :p
Mech will still work, only now you will need a few more hellions to melt a zealot line. I actually question wether this will be enough to put it on a fair level.
Mech was never viable vs toss, so this changes nothing about the boring matchup.
On August 26 2011 14:58 SheaR619 wrote: I think people forgotten that a stimmed marine does twice as much DPS as a blue flame hellion attacking a light units. Hellion got one of the WORST DPS in the game. They need to splash in order to make up for their shitty attack speed. This is going to be a nail in the coffin for mech in TvP (maybe TvZ as well?).
I pray you still somehow make mech work GoOdy
This is just out of context... A stimmed marine does more dps than an infestor does with fungal growth to light armor. What you should have typed is: Hellions got one of the worst singletarget dps in the game. But honestly, how often do you use a hellion to only fire at a single target? If you honestly thought blueflame hellion mineral line drops were perfectly balanced then I can positively identify you as a terran mech player :p
Mech will still work, only now you will need a few more hellions to melt a zealot line. I actually question wether this will be enough to put it on a fair level.
I can identify you as a player who have no idea what your talking about.
Comparing DPS like that doesn't make sense... f.e. Roaches might have the worst dps of the game, but they are THE unit to go for in ZvZ and ZvP as zerg in most cases, and pretty decent vs Terran too. Also I want to add, that Mech in TvP and TvZ is just crap anyway imo... There is a reason you never see it TvP and there is a reason why it is hardly ever played in TvZ on high level. And before you say:"but how should I play mech now???", I have never heard a Protoss complain about how unfair it is that he can't play Pure Robo style... that being said I don't think the BFH change was necessary (even considering that huge icon buff in the last patch , but I don't think it is huge... TLO plays TvZ Mech without blueflame, because in combats 10+hellions roast ling/bling without blue flame as well...
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
thanks for proving my point. not everyone who plays this game have the time to practise 5 plus hours a day and on a semi-pro/pro level of play. i reached masters as a random palyer and chose the race i enjoyed most. why should i have to outplay opponents to stay level with my opponents at this level simply because i don't play this game on gm, or pro level? how is that balanced?
On August 26 2011 00:23 spbelky wrote: Show nested quote + On August 25 2011 20:32 Psychobabas wrote: I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!! Do the math! :D
I'm just gonna requote this because i think it's that important.
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
Do you realize that for an average unit (most that don't do splash), to upgrade their attack +1-2 damage it costs more than that 150/150. The blue flame upgrade is still great.
It isnt great... its a 20% nerf to damage for a unit that attacks slow. Plus this is a specialized buff for the hellion, think about other specialized upgrades (stim, blink, ling speed, seige mode, storm) those add tremendous power. for blue flame its a 150/150 upgrade that hogs the techlab and increases damage only to light by 5 damage (30%). Stim by comparison is 100/100 and increases dmg and movement by 50%.
Are you suggesting that we increase Stim research cost to 200/200? That would make it more fair for terrans in general right? I always feel so bad when I research stim cos its simply way too cheap. Concussive shells should also be 150/100 in my opinion. What do you guys think?
i think you have no understanding of the terran race or this game in general and like the majority of posters in this thread have no actual proof to support this whole 'let's nerf terran to oblivion' theory, other than herp derp 400 apm korean pros who paly 10 hours a day can dominate with the race
same with z and p but they cannot dominate because of obvious imbalance since september 2010 just saying lol btw was there such a gap between one race and the others in any rts before i dont remember in bw having such domination
On August 26 2011 00:23 spbelky wrote: Show nested quote + On August 25 2011 20:32 Psychobabas wrote: I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!! Do the math! :D
I'm just gonna requote this because i think it's that important.
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
Do you realize that for an average unit (most that don't do splash), to upgrade their attack +1-2 damage it costs more than that 150/150. The blue flame upgrade is still great.
It isnt great... its a 20% nerf to damage for a unit that attacks slow. Plus this is a specialized buff for the hellion, think about other specialized upgrades (stim, blink, ling speed, seige mode, storm) those add tremendous power. for blue flame its a 150/150 upgrade that hogs the techlab and increases damage only to light by 5 damage (30%). Stim by comparison is 100/100 and increases dmg and movement by 50%.
Are you suggesting that we increase Stim research cost to 200/200? That would make it more fair for terrans in general right? I always feel so bad when I research stim cos its simply way too cheap. Concussive shells should also be 150/100 in my opinion. What do you guys think?
i think you have no understanding of the terran race or this game in general and like the majority of posters in this thread have no actual proof to support this whole 'let's nerf terran to oblivion' theory, other than herp derp 400 apm korean pros who paly 10 hours a day can dominate with the race
Just posting to insult someone rather than putting forward a valid argument in a polite manner is hardly the way to support your argument. Nothing in your post suggests that you yourself have better understanding than the other guy.
so i'm supposed to reply politely with arguments vs someone who thinks he can just say terran have dominated since september simply because he's doesn't like losing to them?
On August 26 2011 21:19 rmAmnesiac wrote: so i'm supposed to reply politely with arguments vs someone who thinks he can just say terran have dominated since september simply because he's doesn't like losing to them?
the fact that terran have dominated for a year has very little to do if I do or do not like losing to them
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
thanks for proving my point. not everyone who plays this game have the time to practise 5 plus hours a day and on a semi-pro/pro level of play. i reached masters as a random palyer and chose the race i enjoyed most. why should i have to outplay opponents to stay level with my opponents at this level simply because i don't play this game on gm, or pro level? how is that balanced?
Your claim that you have to outplay your opponents just to stay level is a completely biased QQ that has been proven wrong multiple times
Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily. Using HTs is much harder than using ghosts. Using marauders that have slow is also really not that challenging, etc. And using drops is much easier than defending against them. This is just the same as toss a-move with forcefields and storm...
Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
On August 26 2011 21:19 rmAmnesiac wrote: so i'm supposed to reply politely with arguments vs someone who thinks he can just say terran have dominated since september simply because he's doesn't like losing to them?
the fact that terran have dominated for a year has very little to do if I do or do not like losing to them
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
thanks for proving my point. not everyone who plays this game have the time to practise 5 plus hours a day and on a semi-pro/pro level of play. i reached masters as a random palyer and chose the race i enjoyed most. why should i have to outplay opponents to stay level with my opponents at this level simply because i don't play this game on gm, or pro level? how is that balanced?
Your claim that you have to outplay your opponents just to stay level is a completely biased QQ that has been proven wrong multiple times
Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily. Using HTs is much harder than using ghosts. Using marauders that have slow is also really not that challenging, etc. And using drops is much easier than defending against them. This is just the same as toss a-move with forcefields and storm...
Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
i agree with the people saying it will be unstable for some time, so much is changed in this patch, i recommend playing alot of ptr, testing this out, so blizzard will get enough results. Otherwise we will have to survive those changes for a few month . Alot will be affected if you look at a single part of the puzzle, it will destroy the game. But maybe the overall will work it.
Anyway the changes were meant to affect single match-ups, while trying to reduce the impact on the others. That means there are still some, and those will decide if the changes fail or work.
also all of the changes were wanted by a majority of people, so here you go this is a community sponsored patch imo. (and guess what still lots of complaining *g*)
editPS: i think this time there will be also be some changes not mentioned, so get your free cookie for finding them, before the main server does. Oh and i see alot of those changes as crimes of the beta repatching (imo they patched there a bit to strongly on behalf of the community as soon as something was found (not mean that they did something, but they went a bit for an overachiever))
On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote: rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point?
For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090 People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote: rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point?
For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090 People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed.
T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf.
Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z).
On August 26 2011 20:20 Tschis wrote: I don't understand why the OP thinks the vision range up ramps will change scouting in a bad way. For all I know (from what I understood), the units down the ramp will have an extra range free of vision from the units up the ramp, so that's better for scouting?
The other way around: units poking up ramps will see 1 range less than they do currently. So spotting e.g. a terran expansion building with a probe or drone/ling will be more difficult.
Maybe I got it wrong, but I thought it meant units on a higher level have -1 range vision on the lower level. Which doesn't affect your scout unit because you're on the lower level, and if you go up the ramp, then you're in the same level and will have the same range as today.
I think they forgot to either make the HSM cost less mana or be non-researchable again (comes without having to upgrade it) if they want people to start using it.
On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote: rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point?
For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090 People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
Yikes, your kinda being a dick for no reason. You have valid points though. I lold at your A-move, but dont forget emps. Thats like saying P can a move, but dont forget FF or storm.
If T goes bio they have to stim, emp, kite and focus fire vikings. Definitively not A-move. P also has to blink, storm and FF so im not getting the the middle of a who micros more debate. Just pointing out that rarely do they A-move.
That aside chargelot Archon is the most awesome a-move army in the game and Z often amoves which i think is probably what he was talking about. And no archons are massive its even better. Not a whine at all, just a statement.
Also you say you have no knowledge of TvZ. My Terran is diamond level, TvP i beat a lot of masters, but TvZ i only go 50-50 with diamond. I started to get pissed when i lost more and more TvZ so i played about 10 games as zerg to prove a point.
I Roflstomped most plat T, and a few diamond T. And i have no mechanics, i manually go to each hatch and inject (Still fairly simple to do though), I purely A-move. My upgrades were always good as i couldnt spend my money anywhere else. I then played a masters and got owned so hard it make me cry. I got dropped all over the place.
From what i found, T is really fucking hard to play against a competent Z until your good, well masterish good. As you have to multitask, a lot. 1 bad unsiege and you get fucked. These sort of things are mistakes which high level players dont seem to really make. Sure theres the odd mistake but no mass unsiege by accident etc. Trust me, that happens even in diamond.
When people say T is the hardest to play, in diamond i would definitely agree as it seems to require so much more apm its mindboggling. You can chill on like 50 apm as zerg and do fine in diamond. Just not possible with T. However once your comfortable with your 130+ apm it probably just seems normal.
Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
Terran's not harder? Wow. I always found them to be appallingly tough.
On topic: Finally an Immortal buff... glad that they upped the range instead of doing stupid things like giving them 200 shield and +20 damage.
On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote: rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point?
For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090 People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed.
T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf.
Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z).
rofl you sure know how to answer a persons actual point. unofficial stats relating to the very highest level of play. fantastic and wholly unrepresentative. also, i never said protoss and zerg are a move races but i don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that terran is the race which scales best with very high levels of micro and multitasking ability, which yes is needed pretty in pretty much any bio related compisitions. i can think of A LOT of zerg and protoss units which perform optimally without micro. from a terran arsenal there is? thors? well not against protoss anyway.
On August 26 2011 20:50 CarlaBruni wrote: same with z and p but they cannot dominate because of obvious imbalance since september 2010 just saying lol btw was there such a gap between one race and the others in any rts before i dont remember in bw having such domination
Well, for starters SC2 has no expansion, yet. Vanilla Starcraft was not balanced at all, Protoss was unplayable bad and Zerg had a significant advantage over Terran as well. This was when photon cannons only did 10 damage to mutalisks and archons moved at like 1.5 speed.
Protoss was also extremely weak in BW until the Bisu Build evolved in 2007 -- 9 years after the release of BroodWar and 6 years after the final Broodwar balance patch.
This is why it's generally considered futile to whine about game balance. The pros who will ultimately enjoy competing in a balanced SC2 are probably preteens at this point.
On the bright side it's likely that terran will enjoy several more years of dominance while blizzard's historically-glacial balancing process continues -- that's plenty of time to switch to and master terran if you're so concerned about not playing at an artificial disadvantage.
On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote: rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point?
For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090 People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed.
T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf.
Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z).
rofl you sure know how to answer a persons actual point. unofficial stats relating to the very highest level of play. fantastic and wholly unrepresentative. also, i never said protoss and zerg are a move races but i don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that terran is the race which scales best with very high levels of micro and multitasking ability, which yes is needed pretty in pretty much any bio related compisitions. i can think of A LOT of zerg and protoss units which perform optimally without micro. from a terran arsenal there is? thors? well not against protoss anyway.
On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote: rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point?
For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090 People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed.
T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf.
Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z).
rofl you sure know how to answer a persons actual point. unofficial stats relating to the very highest level of play. fantastic and wholly unrepresentative. also, i never said protoss and zerg are a move races but i don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that terran is the race which scales best with very high levels of micro and multitasking ability, which yes is needed pretty in pretty much any bio related compisitions. i can think of A LOT of zerg and protoss units which perform optimally without micro. from a terran arsenal there is? thors? well not against protoss anyway.
Who are you talking to? Yourself?
He has a valid point that sure you may dispute. Posting useless posts like yours isnt helping anything though. Try and refrain in future not just for us, but youll get warnings, so for u too.
BC up to a point perfrom kinda well without micro in an actual fight. Not great though. I see your point of chareglots, Archons, colossi, speeldings, roaches the list goes on. And before anyone whines about colossi micro, its the same as thor 'micro'
Basically T NEEDS high apm while it only helps the others i think is his point. Chilling with low APM as terran just doesnt cut it even when everything you do is awesome, just ask sjow.
On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote: rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point?
For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090 People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed.
T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf.
Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z).
rofl you sure know how to answer a persons actual point. unofficial stats relating to the very highest level of play. fantastic and wholly unrepresentative. also, i never said protoss and zerg are a move races but i don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that terran is the race which scales best with very high levels of micro and multitasking ability, which yes is needed pretty in pretty much any bio related compisitions. i can think of A LOT of zerg and protoss units which perform optimally without micro. from a terran arsenal there is? thors? well not against protoss anyway.
Who are you talking to? Yourself?
the concept of quoting a post which you are responding to really isn't a difficult one. perhaps learn to engage your brain?
On August 27 2011 00:00 Squigly wrote: From what i found, T is really fucking hard to play against a competent Z until your good, well masterish good. As you have to multitask, a lot. 1 bad unsiege and you get fucked. These sort of things are mistakes which high level players dont seem to really make. Sure theres the odd mistake but no mass unsiege by accident etc. Trust me, that happens even in diamond.
When people say T is the hardest to play, in diamond i would definitely agree as it seems to require so much more apm its mindboggling. You can chill on like 50 apm as zerg and do fine in diamond. Just not possible with T. However once your comfortable with your 130+ apm it probably just seems normal.
Well and now I would argue, that you did well as Zerg, because Zerg is the race that requires the highest overall knowledge of the game. there is no safe build, so you have to know whats coming, without seeing it. Ofc a high level player will do well with Zerg on low skill level, because he will have that ability.
Also I want to argue, that I, as a Zerg player, have beaten a lot of Masters Zs with T too, because you can simply do anything, and as long as the zerg doesn't get what you do, he loses, and talking about hard micro... The onyl hard terran micro I know about is using snipe effecticly and maybe real good hellion kiting. Stimmed marines are just a clicking excercise to kite and spread in my eyes and real good terrans like MVP are way above this kind of gameplay. They win because they have this zerglike spidersenses, instead of doing the average masterleague pushes, that are just excercises until you find zergs that have brutal good gamesense.
I don't know how i feel about zerg getting a build time decrease on the ultralisk. Personally I think zerg endgame is already too good and now making P and T have to deal with two types of T3 tech could be very hard
On August 26 2011 21:19 rmAmnesiac wrote: so i'm supposed to reply politely with arguments vs someone who thinks he can just say terran have dominated since september simply because he's doesn't like losing to them?
the fact that terran have dominated for a year has very little to do if I do or do not like losing to them
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
thanks for proving my point. not everyone who plays this game have the time to practise 5 plus hours a day and on a semi-pro/pro level of play. i reached masters as a random palyer and chose the race i enjoyed most. why should i have to outplay opponents to stay level with my opponents at this level simply because i don't play this game on gm, or pro level? how is that balanced?
Your claim that you have to outplay your opponents just to stay level is a completely biased QQ that has been proven wrong multiple times
Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily. Using HTs is much harder than using ghosts. Using marauders that have slow is also really not that challenging, etc. And using drops is much easier than defending against them. This is just the same as toss a-move with forcefields and storm...
Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
I'm not sure what game you have been playing, but when it reaches lategame you can never "just stim and roflstomp." If you do that you autolose to collosus+archon deathball with templars.
Also, using HTs is not "much harder than using ghosts." It's pretty much equal, the difference being if T does not hit the EMPs perfectly they have zero chance, whereas if protoss hits even 2 storms they are fine, but a lot of times late game it won't matter because protoss can composition fuck Terran so hard that P ends up with mass collosus+archon+zealot/stalkers which emp doesn't do jack shiot against.
On August 27 2011 00:00 Squigly wrote: From what i found, T is really fucking hard to play against a competent Z until your good, well masterish good. As you have to multitask, a lot. 1 bad unsiege and you get fucked. These sort of things are mistakes which high level players dont seem to really make. Sure theres the odd mistake but no mass unsiege by accident etc. Trust me, that happens even in diamond.
When people say T is the hardest to play, in diamond i would definitely agree as it seems to require so much more apm its mindboggling. You can chill on like 50 apm as zerg and do fine in diamond. Just not possible with T. However once your comfortable with your 130+ apm it probably just seems normal.
Well and now I would argue, that you did well as Zerg, because Zerg is the race that requires the highest overall knowledge of the game. there is no safe build, so you have to know whats coming, without seeing it. Ofc a high level player will do well with Zerg on low skill level, because he will have that ability.
Also I want to argue, that I, as a Zerg player, have beaten a lot of Masters Zs with T too, because you can simply do anything, and as long as the zerg doesn't get what you do, he loses, and talking about hard micro... The onyl hard terran micro I know about is using snipe effecticly and maybe real good hellion kiting. Stimmed marines are just a clicking excercise to kite and spread in my eyes and real good terrans like MVP are way above this kind of gameplay. They win because they have this zerglike spidersenses, instead of doing the average masterleague pushes, that are just excercises until you find zergs that have brutal good gamesense.
Hmm thats actually a decent point. As zerg if u have a good game sense your a good way to doing well.
On the micro thing, lol, i cant tell if thats a troll or you actually have no idea. First off tank micro is actually quite taxing. Focus firing tanks, siege micro itself isnt that easy. Then theres marines, you seem to think kiting and splitting dont count as micro? really?
You actually summed up my point pretty well. People like MvP obviously have a great time as Terran as they can do all the 'basics' in their sleep as you need to be able to. Its like being able to larva inject, if you cant do it as Z you just lose. The thing is terran 'basics' are waaay harder, and many master level players dont have them down. (yes thats 3 a in waaay, boom)
This is why TvZ is very hard to paly at low levels (Dia and below). The balance for the MU assumes that you can do all this, which to be fair pros can, so thats cool. It however screws lower leagues.
But its just the way the game is made. Its not balanced for diamond as that would be retarded, its balanced for Pros for good reason. So while i may believe TvZ is imba in plat-diamond, meh, who cares.
On August 26 2011 21:53 sleepingdog wrote: For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090 People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
I'm actually surprised to see the win rates so close together. Considering there are always some statistical errors to account for, it's pretty balanced.
It seems to me that TvP is the most balanced (with around 50% in the last months) while ZvT is terran-favored and ZvP is zerg-favored. I do think that the rax nerf and hellion nerf will probably bring down T win rate vs Z to balance that a bit. Infester nerf and immortal range will help P vs Z to even that battlefield a bit.
However, since both protoss get buffed a tiny bit and terran gets nerfed a tiny bit, this may throw the otherwise more-or-less balanced TvP matchup into P favor. We'll need to see though, it's much too early to speculate on that.
On August 26 2011 21:19 rmAmnesiac wrote: so i'm supposed to reply politely with arguments vs someone who thinks he can just say terran have dominated since september simply because he's doesn't like losing to them?
the fact that terran have dominated for a year has very little to do if I do or do not like losing to them
On August 26 2011 20:40 rmAmnesiac wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote: Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
thanks for proving my point. not everyone who plays this game have the time to practise 5 plus hours a day and on a semi-pro/pro level of play. i reached masters as a random palyer and chose the race i enjoyed most. why should i have to outplay opponents to stay level with my opponents at this level simply because i don't play this game on gm, or pro level? how is that balanced?
Your claim that you have to outplay your opponents just to stay level is a completely biased QQ that has been proven wrong multiple times
Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily. Using HTs is much harder than using ghosts. Using marauders that have slow is also really not that challenging, etc. And using drops is much easier than defending against them. This is just the same as toss a-move with forcefields and storm...
Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
I'm not sure what game you have been playing, but when it reaches lategame you can never "just stim and roflstomp." If you do that you autolose to collosus+archon deathball with templars.
lol people, relax please
I only responded to a guy who claimed that terran has to - I quote - "outplay zerg/protoss just to stay even". He claimed that zerg/protoss could rely on a-move while terran had to multitask/micro constantly. This was the exact statement
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
I never said (or wanted to say) that terran can rely on a-move in lategame vs skilled opponents. What I said was, that terran can just as easily stomp zergs/toss (who makes crucial mistakes) with macro and a-move as zerg/toss can to terran. Please don't read/quote my statement out of context, as it was solely meant as a response to the opinion quoted above.
On August 27 2011 17:58 Lurk wrote: However, since both protoss get buffed a tiny bit and terran gets nerfed a tiny bit, this may throw the otherwise more-or-less balanced TvP matchup into P favor. We'll need to see though, it's much too early to speculate on that.
Fair point, nevertheless from all matchups I think that TvP will be affected the least. The 5 second baracks nerf will hardly make protoss cheese more effective, and protoss early game pressure was never a real threat for terran. Stuff like 2 bas 6 gate won't be harder to hold with +5 seconds. Ingame timing even.
The +1 immortal change could turn out to make immortals more useful vs pure bio, nevertheless the hardened shield gets countered by the exact same spell that terrans have to use vs templars anyways. I don't see how +1 immortals could be a bigger threat than some templars with storms that the terran player failed to EMP. Sadly, it will make tanks/thors even less viable than they are now. But I don't think this will make bio considerably worse. The +1 immortals will have a much bigger impact in PvZ vs roach.
The blink-nerf makes the blink-all-in vs no gas expands much weaker, which is somewhat of a terran buff in that regard. I'm thinking especially of the blink-behind-bunkers on Tal Darim.
On August 27 2011 00:00 Squigly wrote: From what i found, T is really fucking hard to play against a competent Z until your good, well masterish good. As you have to multitask, a lot. 1 bad unsiege and you get fucked. These sort of things are mistakes which high level players dont seem to really make. Sure theres the odd mistake but no mass unsiege by accident etc. Trust me, that happens even in diamond.
When people say T is the hardest to play, in diamond i would definitely agree as it seems to require so much more apm its mindboggling. You can chill on like 50 apm as zerg and do fine in diamond. Just not possible with T. However once your comfortable with your 130+ apm it probably just seems normal.
Well and now I would argue, that you did well as Zerg, because Zerg is the race that requires the highest overall knowledge of the game. there is no safe build, so you have to know whats coming, without seeing it. Ofc a high level player will do well with Zerg on low skill level, because he will have that ability.
Also I want to argue, that I, as a Zerg player, have beaten a lot of Masters Zs with T too, because you can simply do anything, and as long as the zerg doesn't get what you do, he loses, and talking about hard micro... The onyl hard terran micro I know about is using snipe effecticly and maybe real good hellion kiting. Stimmed marines are just a clicking excercise to kite and spread in my eyes and real good terrans like MVP are way above this kind of gameplay. They win because they have this zerglike spidersenses, instead of doing the average masterleague pushes, that are just excercises until you find zergs that have brutal good gamesense.
Hmm thats actually a decent point. As zerg if u have a good game sense your a good way to doing well.
On the micro thing, lol, i cant tell if thats a troll or you actually have no idea. First off tank micro is actually quite taxing. Focus firing tanks, siege micro itself isnt that easy. Then theres marines, you seem to think kiting and splitting dont count as micro? really?
You actually summed up my point pretty well. People like MvP obviously have a great time as Terran as they can do all the 'basics' in their sleep as you need to be able to. Its like being able to larva inject, if you cant do it as Z you just lose. The thing is terran 'basics' are waaay harder, and many master level players dont have them down. (yes thats 3 a in waaay, boom)
This is why TvZ is very hard to paly at low levels (Dia and below). The balance for the MU assumes that you can do all this, which to be fair pros can, so thats cool. It however screws lower leagues.
But its just the way the game is made. Its not balanced for diamond as that would be retarded, its balanced for Pros for good reason. So while i may believe TvZ is imba in plat-diamond, meh, who cares.
Well, I don't want to argue about gamebalance in low leagues (everything under high master in my eyes), but I wouldn't say that it is terribly off... I agree that banelings against unmicroed marines is just a rofl-thing, but zerg macro, scouting and constant decision making isn't easy either and I think a ton of people that just get started with starcraft, have a way harder time using a race that can't attack from a safe distance, has no artillery most of the time and uses a unique training system, rather then THE RTS "que a bunch of stuff on the right building"-system, than with P or T which seem quite "standard".
Also I want to add, that you are using an argument, zergs have been using (I guess the infestor buff and low level builds like spanishiwas has changed that a bit): "you have to be better than your opponents to be able to beat them, because they can simply do anything, but you have to react in the one right way to survive"
On August 26 2011 21:19 rmAmnesiac wrote: so i'm supposed to reply politely with arguments vs someone who thinks he can just say terran have dominated since september simply because he's doesn't like losing to them?
the fact that terran have dominated for a year has very little to do if I do or do not like losing to them
On August 26 2011 20:40 rmAmnesiac wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:
On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote: [quote]
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented? Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker) Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
thanks for proving my point. not everyone who plays this game have the time to practise 5 plus hours a day and on a semi-pro/pro level of play. i reached masters as a random palyer and chose the race i enjoyed most. why should i have to outplay opponents to stay level with my opponents at this level simply because i don't play this game on gm, or pro level? how is that balanced?
Your claim that you have to outplay your opponents just to stay level is a completely biased QQ that has been proven wrong multiple times
Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily. Using HTs is much harder than using ghosts. Using marauders that have slow is also really not that challenging, etc. And using drops is much easier than defending against them. This is just the same as toss a-move with forcefields and storm...
Terran has to be played differently, more active - but it's definitely not harder. (Yes I offrace occasionally as terran, but my understanding of TvZ is nonexistent...)
I'm not sure what game you have been playing, but when it reaches lategame you can never "just stim and roflstomp." If you do that you autolose to collosus+archon deathball with templars.
lol people, relax please
I only responded to a guy who claimed that terran has to - I quote - "outplay zerg/protoss just to stay even". He claimed that zerg/protoss could rely on a-move while terran had to multitask/micro constantly. This was the exact statement
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
I never said (or wanted to say) that terran can rely on a-move in lategame vs skilled opponents. What I said was, that terran can just as easily stomp zergs/toss (who makes crucial mistakes) with macro and a-move as zerg/toss can to terran. Please don't read/quote my statement out of context, as it was solely meant as a response to the opinion quoted above.
On August 27 2011 17:58 Lurk wrote: However, since both protoss get buffed a tiny bit and terran gets nerfed a tiny bit, this may throw the otherwise more-or-less balanced TvP matchup into P favor. We'll need to see though, it's much too early to speculate on that.
Fair point, nevertheless from all matchups I think that TvP will be affected the least. The 5 second baracks nerf will hardly make protoss cheese more effective, and protoss early game pressure was never a real threat for terran. Stuff like 2 bas 6 gate won't be harder to hold with +5 seconds. Ingame timing even.
The +1 immortal change could turn out to make immortals more useful vs pure bio, nevertheless the hardened shield gets countered by the exact same spell that terrans have to use vs templars anyways. I don't see how +1 immortals could be a bigger threat than some templars with storms that the terran player failed to EMP. Sadly, it will make tanks/thors even less viable than they are now. But I don't think this will make bio considerably worse. The +1 immortals will have a much bigger impact in PvZ vs roach.
The blink-nerf makes the blink-all-in vs no gas expands much weaker, which is somewhat of a terran buff in that regard. I'm thinking especially of the blink-behind-bunkers on Tal Darim.
Actually what that guy's saying is pretty true, you DO have to do econ dmg vs both Zerg and Protoss to stand a chance in lategame. And yes Terran needs the most multitasking, and Terran benefits the most from it. If you haven't understood that by now, you don't know this game at all.
On August 27 2011 00:00 Squigly wrote: From what i found, T is really fucking hard to play against a competent Z until your good, well masterish good. As you have to multitask, a lot. 1 bad unsiege and you get fucked. These sort of things are mistakes which high level players dont seem to really make. Sure theres the odd mistake but no mass unsiege by accident etc. Trust me, that happens even in diamond.
When people say T is the hardest to play, in diamond i would definitely agree as it seems to require so much more apm its mindboggling. You can chill on like 50 apm as zerg and do fine in diamond. Just not possible with T. However once your comfortable with your 130+ apm it probably just seems normal.
Well and now I would argue, that you did well as Zerg, because Zerg is the race that requires the highest overall knowledge of the game. there is no safe build, so you have to know whats coming, without seeing it. Ofc a high level player will do well with Zerg on low skill level, because he will have that ability.
Also I want to argue, that I, as a Zerg player, have beaten a lot of Masters Zs with T too, because you can simply do anything, and as long as the zerg doesn't get what you do, he loses, and talking about hard micro... The onyl hard terran micro I know about is using snipe effecticly and maybe real good hellion kiting. Stimmed marines are just a clicking excercise to kite and spread in my eyes and real good terrans like MVP are way above this kind of gameplay. They win because they have this zerglike spidersenses, instead of doing the average masterleague pushes, that are just excercises until you find zergs that have brutal good gamesense.
Hmm thats actually a decent point. As zerg if u have a good game sense your a good way to doing well.
On the micro thing, lol, i cant tell if thats a troll or you actually have no idea. First off tank micro is actually quite taxing. Focus firing tanks, siege micro itself isnt that easy. Then theres marines, you seem to think kiting and splitting dont count as micro? really?
You actually summed up my point pretty well. People like MvP obviously have a great time as Terran as they can do all the 'basics' in their sleep as you need to be able to. Its like being able to larva inject, if you cant do it as Z you just lose. The thing is terran 'basics' are waaay harder, and many master level players dont have them down. (yes thats 3 a in waaay, boom)
This is why TvZ is very hard to paly at low levels (Dia and below). The balance for the MU assumes that you can do all this, which to be fair pros can, so thats cool. It however screws lower leagues.
But its just the way the game is made. Its not balanced for diamond as that would be retarded, its balanced for Pros for good reason. So while i may believe TvZ is imba in plat-diamond, meh, who cares.
Well, I don't want to argue about gamebalance in low leagues (everything under high master in my eyes), but I wouldn't say that it is terribly off... I agree that banelings against unmicroed marines is just a rofl-thing, but zerg macro, scouting and constant decision making isn't easy either and I think a ton of people that just get started with starcraft, have a way harder time using a race that can't attack from a safe distance, has no artillery most of the time and uses a unique training system, rather then THE RTS "que a bunch of stuff on the right building"-system, than with P or T which seem quite "standard".
Also I want to add, that you are using an argument, zergs have been using (I guess the infestor buff and low level builds like spanishiwas has changed that a bit): "you have to be better than your opponents to be able to beat them, because they can simply do anything, but you have to react in the one right way to survive"
I agree that gamebalance is a non issue for lower league players such as myself, at low leagues I would argue that terran is a lot easier than zerg or protoss, specially since you can just open 3rax every matchup and start sending waves of marines to you oppponent, forcing zerg to make lings/banes instead of drones then you can just sit back behind your wall and macro up. I can't tell you how many games terrans just scan my base, my nat, my third, my front all the time to see what I'm doing, yeah yeah I know the classic crap "oh but he wasted 250 min with that scan" but the thing is at low levels where the macro is not good that hardly makes a difference compared to the knowledge he gets when he sees my spire just popping up so he can start making turrets. Meanwhile I have to send ovies that may or may not see anything usefull because marines will shoot them down, send a ling to hes ramp just to get blasted by a tank, oh and the infamous PFs at third and fourth bases that make them impenetrable to attacks while the terran only has to scan to know where to drop my main. Basic stuff is hard for all races and at low levels the easiest to start learning is terran, while the most powerful is toss once you pass the 5 min mark. This is not true at pro levels of play where dropping comes coupled with marine/tank pushes through the middle, where a hellion opening has to do damage or else the zerg will just outmacro you, but at low levels all you have to do is make marines non stop and eventually you'll win more than you loose, just look at TLO's 6 rax all in, if unscouted or scouted late the zerg will NOT have defense in time unless he opened up 3spine 4queen blindly but at higher levels where scouting is mastered this will flat out loose. And the quote "you have to be better than your opponents to be able to beat them, because they can simply do anything, but you have to react in the one right way to survive" applies to every race just as you can do 1/1/1 or mass banshee or BFH harrass or mech or even a BC rush so can I do a bane bust, roach rush, muta rush to harrass, double expand to macro up, mass ling infestor, etc. The difference is at low levels a scan gets you that intel easier than an ovie gets me mine.
sleepingdog wrote: The +1 immortal change could turn out to make immortals more useful vs pure bio, nevertheless the hardened shield gets countered by the exact same spell that terrans have to use vs templars anyways. I don't see how +1 immortals could be a bigger threat than some templars with storms that the terran player failed to EMP. Sadly, it will make tanks/thors even less viable than they are now. But I don't think this will make bio considerably worse. The +1 immortals will have a much bigger impact in PvZ vs roach.
I think 2 zealots and a sentry is still better than an immortal in most cases vs bio. I don't add my robo that early (vs bio!) to make an immortal shine in small fights. In mid-late game stimmed units burn down his shields too fast, so I rather get upgrades for my zeals than immortals. In PvZ the cost- and supplyefficiency of immortals vs roaches is great, but you only have a limited production capacity for them to really counter roaches with them. So I'm not sure if you will build more of them, but anytime you've allready built one now, they will be more usefull if the +1 range goes live.
sleepingdog wrote: The +1 immortal change could turn out to make immortals more useful vs pure bio, nevertheless the hardened shield gets countered by the exact same spell that terrans have to use vs templars anyways. I don't see how +1 immortals could be a bigger threat than some templars with storms that the terran player failed to EMP. Sadly, it will make tanks/thors even less viable than they are now. But I don't think this will make bio considerably worse. The +1 immortals will have a much bigger impact in PvZ vs roach.
I think 2 zealots and a sentry is still better than an immortal in most cases vs bio. I don't add my robo that early (vs bio!) to make an immortal shine in small fights. In mid-late game stimmed units burn down his shields too fast, so I rather get upgrades for my zeals than immortals. In PvZ the cost- and supplyefficiency of immortals vs roaches is great, but you only have a limited production capacity for them to really counter roaches with them. So I'm not sure if you will build more of them, but anytime you've allready built one now, they will be more usefull if the +1 range goes live.
From my limited viewpoint as a terran player, the poor range was actually the main reason that immortals weren't used as often. They wouldn't work well when the protoss had stalkers, as they'd easily get stuck behind them. Also, their low range enabled them to be sniped rather easily. Don't make the mistake of thinking "+1 range is rather insignicant", remember what happened to roaches as they got +1 range.
Immortals are really great if you can keep them alive a long time, especially after they have tanked some damage. And that keeping alive has now become a lot easier with that additional range. Hide them behind a wall to zealots and there won't be much that can touch them.
+1 range immortals completely and utterly changes P v T. People will be spamming immortals till the cows come home because of how hard they dominate bio. Yay for another 1 A unit for protoss.
I'm going to call it right now, it'll just be zealot sentry immortal/observers then charge/HTs later from every protoss from now on.
On August 28 2011 04:43 link0 wrote: +1 range immortals completely and utterly changes P v T. People will be spamming immortals till the cows come home because of how hard they dominate bio. Yay for another 1 A unit for protoss.
I'm going to call it right now, it'll just be zealot sentry immortal/observers then charge/HTs later from every protoss from now on.
That does sound like a pretty solid composition to be sure, although it will likely suffer from lack of anti-air. Banshee play and drops will be very strong against it.
What isn't a 1 A unit, if the Immortal is? Even with the extra range, every Immortal stills needs to be individually controlled to focus on armored targets and maximize damage.
Stalkers, phoenix, sentry, all need micro is what hes saying. Stalkers dont need it, but blink is awesome. VR need focus fire. Immortals just kinda a move into bio
On August 28 2011 05:42 Squigly wrote: Stalkers, phoenix, sentry, all need micro is what hes saying. Stalkers dont need it, but blink is awesome. VR need focus fire. Immortals just kinda a move into bio
If you a-move immortals into bio you're wasting them away as the usual marine:marauder ratio inevitably will have a larger ratio of immortal shots land on marines... And we all know how much damage that deals. MM is a thousand times more a-move than immortals are, thats for sure
On August 28 2011 05:42 Squigly wrote: Stalkers, phoenix, sentry, all need micro is what hes saying. Stalkers dont need it, but blink is awesome. VR need focus fire. Immortals just kinda a move into bio
If you a-move immortals into bio you're wasting them away as the usual marine:marauder ratio inevitably will have a larger ratio of immortal shots land on marines... And we all know how much damage that deals. MM is a thousand times more a-move than immortals are, thats for sure
Prepare to be mobbed by thousands of terrans telling why your're stupid. Id say they about even though, Immortal needs like 3 clicks of focus fire, bio needs concaving, kiting stim etc.
Actually lol in hindsight id say immortals are more a move lol, but your point is taken.
On August 28 2011 05:42 Squigly wrote: Stalkers, phoenix, sentry, all need micro is what hes saying. Stalkers dont need it, but blink is awesome. VR need focus fire. Immortals just kinda a move into bio
If you a-move immortals into bio you're wasting them away as the usual marine:marauder ratio inevitably will have a larger ratio of immortal shots land on marines... And we all know how much damage that deals. MM is a thousand times more a-move than immortals are, thats for sure
Prepare to be mobbed by thousands of terrans telling why your're stupid. Id say they about even though, Immortal needs like 3 clicks of focus fire, bio needs concaving, kiting stim etc.
Actually lol in hindsight id say immortals are more a move lol, but your point is taken.
Well I am obviously trying to provoke the terrans but saying that "oh no mass immortal a-move omg" is... well I have no word for it. Zealot/sentry/immortal? yo BFH/ghost/banshee. Then you can talk about a-move.
On August 28 2011 05:42 Squigly wrote: Stalkers, phoenix, sentry, all need micro is what hes saying. Stalkers dont need it, but blink is awesome. VR need focus fire. Immortals just kinda a move into bio
If you a-move immortals into bio you're wasting them away as the usual marine:marauder ratio inevitably will have a larger ratio of immortal shots land on marines... And we all know how much damage that deals. MM is a thousand times more a-move than immortals are, thats for sure
Prepare to be mobbed by thousands of terrans telling why your're stupid. Id say they about even though, Immortal needs like 3 clicks of focus fire, bio needs concaving, kiting stim etc.
Actually lol in hindsight id say immortals are more a move lol, but your point is taken.
Well I am obviously trying to provoke the terrans but saying that "oh no mass immortal a-move omg" is... well I have no word for it. Zealot/sentry/immortal? yo BFH/ghost/banshee. Then you can talk about a-move.
I think ghosts might be the least a moveable unit in the game. HT you can make into archons which a move. Infestorrs actually take the cake thinking about it.
The Infestor Fungal nerf was I think foreseen by pretty much everyone. However I don't think that slight damage nerf will affect gameplay that much. I still think Zergs will end up using them just as often as they did in the past. The damage decrease itself doesn't change much, and only in rare cases does it require the Zerg to spend an extra fungal or two. The real benefit coming out of it is the decreased DPS. It may allow Medivacs to help potentially lost marines in the past patch.
However the change in Fungal doesn't affect the main issue with it as much - Chain Fungals and Locking down units in place. In a game where Micro is an inherent trait of the game and is often rewarded to the player that has better control, Fungals do not fit into that category. If the effect of Fungal was rather an Ensnare like ability, then it would still make sense. For comparisons sake, it's as if the units were surrounded by forcefields while a weaker variation of Storms was dropped on them at the same time. It's a neat little package all put into one spell, it's a little too convenient. I don't even want to talk about Infested Terrans yet.
There's something wrong when a race Masses a unit that was meant to be a Support aide. I was disappointed to see that Blizzard decided to solve it in this manner. The issue with Infestors is not simply in its abilities, but also of Tier 2 Zerg tech. I would have liked to see Zerg getting some buffs to Hydras and perhaps other units so that they have more options.
Could we stop that stupid discussion please ? Almost every unit improves by better micro. Terran units do. Protoss units do, even Zerg ones. If you just a-move them you're wasting potential no matter which race you play.
You might want to focus fire armored units with immortals, but so you might want your marauders and tanks to do so. Quite the same as you might want to kite marines with stalkers, the same way you can kite zealots with marauders.
Don't ever assume that your opponent is just a-moving you. And even if he does, if he beat you that way, he just had more stuff than you so he could afford it.
I find it kinda "offensive" the whole Protoss A-Move thing. These people are nothing but trolls specially when Protoss whole survival is based on proper use of casts. No other race has to cast so much just to stay alive in battles as toss does. So please stop these trolls.
Now as far as the changes go i am split. It seems to me that all these buffs and nerfs are based arounf two thing. -One been the terran early bunker rushing the oposition in the natural (as we see in MLG Raleigh) against P and Z. -Two been that they once again want to change the dynamics of pvp aka blink.
They chosed to nerf the blink to change pvp. But they could not do this without changing terran bunker rush/proxy. So they nerf rax and buff immortal to even it out and compensate for nerf of blink. At the end it kills the dynamic of pvp cos whats gonna happen just like it has happend before again and again and again. One tech will become the standard for pvp.
As far as the helion nerf i laugh cos its just plain imba specially vs zerg.
On August 25 2011 20:13 Teiwaz wrote: Overall I like the patch notes, still I'm waiting for EMP to require research.
I'm not fully convinced that PvP will just be Robo vs. Robo, I can see some fine and viable Phoenix builds evolving - especially with Blink research time reduced.
Fuck that would fucking suck.
On August 28 2011 07:20 Lurk wrote: Could we stop that stupid discussion please ? Almost every unit improves by better micro. Terran units do. Protoss units do, even Zerg ones. If you just a-move them you're wasting potential no matter which race you play.
You might want to focus fire armored units with immortals, but so you might want your marauders and tanks to do so. Quite the same as you might want to kite marines with stalkers, the same way you can kite zealots with marauders.
Don't ever assume that your opponent is just a-moving you. And even if he does, if he beat you that way, he just had more stuff than you so he could afford it.
There is a strong consensus that Colossus and Chargelots is mostly A moving in TvP. HT and Sentries obviously require "smart micro" and strategery, but not really "fast micro" like what is demanding from a bio based Terran in response. In PvZ the Protoss typically displays the most beutiful micro in the game (hi huk!) while Zerg players spawn larva (), but in PvT Protoss players hate this because there's less skill difference between top Protosses and mediocre Protosses.
EDIT: I think the Blue flame Nerf is mostly aimed at Diamond Zergs having trouble against BFH. Sim City/Queens + Spawn Larva means Hellions kill a maximum of 15 drones with a drop. I got this number from personal experience on the Masters NA ladder and from Pro games. On 2 bases thats 1 round of larva spawn. Many times I will kill 15 drones and still be behind in workers (albeit barely). If Zergs can produce so many drones at a time, killing them just as fast sounds about right. Not that I think this nerf is a huge problem, cause BFH did a shit ton of damage, but I think players should recognize how much Terran needs all the "OP" things they have. Besides, once mutas come out, Zerg gains map control for the rest of the game, and these harassment units are capable of killing a mineral line, the CC and still make it back home in time to clean up the tanks post bling swarm. So I got no pity for zergs, frankly.
Sim City/Queens + Spawn Larva means Hellions kill a maximum of 15 drones
Yeah, that's way too many lol. It can't be necessary because otherwise protoss would never win pvz given there's absolutely zero way protoss can even come CLOSE to killing that many, let alone efficiently aside from unscouted DTs which still probably won't be that cost effective as dt tech > BF tech and each dt is like 3-4 hellions depending on how you count gas, even if they kill 25 drones its still probably less cost effective. it was just ridiculous
chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
Except those ups help your whole army. DT,Zeal, Stalker, Collosi, immortal, sentry, archon. Now divide 1950 by 7.
terran building armor also ups your whole base. Now divide that by 40.
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125. Implications and reasoning: Contaminate is so strong especially in ZvZ. I think this is completely justified.
Bizarre. If anything, contaminate seems way underused, although maybe decreasing the overseer cost will change that.
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
You're whining about the fact that you have to put zealots in front of stalkers? And colossus in the back?Are you freaking serious? Terran is forced to get perfect concaves vs toss, and you whine because you have to do a little unit positioning? And please, stop crying about utilizing full zealot potential. That applies for every damn unit in the game, and while Zerg and Terran have 2 upgrade paths for ground units, you only have one.
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
You're whining about the fact that you have to put zealots in front of stalkers? And colossus in the back?Are you freaking serious? Terran is forced to get perfect concaves vs toss, and you whine because you have to do a little unit positioning? And please, stop crying about utilizing full zealot potential. That applies for every damn unit in the game, and while Zerg and Terran have 2 upgrade paths for ground units, you only have one.
On another Note. The P colossus ball obv requires less micro than bio and are fairly A-move, noone is saying it otherwise. HT on the other hand are where P micro comes in.
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
You're whining about the fact that you have to put zealots in front of stalkers? And colossus in the back?Are you freaking serious? Terran is forced to get perfect concaves vs toss, and you whine because you have to do a little unit positioning? And please, stop crying about utilizing full zealot potential. That applies for every damn unit in the game, and while Zerg and Terran have 2 upgrade paths for ground units, you only have one.
1) Stop whining 2) Yes, ravens could be considered pretty bad, but do realize that they are detector-spellcasters. This is why it is hard to equalize ravens. 3) Toss micro takes a lot harder than terran micro. What you have to do is make sure your vikings don't get raped too much before they rape the collosi. However, you shuld never have a problem if each ghosts' EMP was probably as good as each Protoss's Storm. In fact, you should be owning Toss armies if you do get EMPS off at the same skill level as the Protoss's storm.
The proper option for toss is then to usually not engage, because its not worth it at that point then.
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
You're whining about the fact that you have to put zealots in front of stalkers? And colossus in the back?Are you freaking serious? Terran is forced to get perfect concaves vs toss, and you whine because you have to do a little unit positioning? And please, stop crying about utilizing full zealot potential. That applies for every damn unit in the game, and while Zerg and Terran have 2 upgrade paths for ground units, you only have one.
if I had to put zealots and immortals and archons and colossus and sentries and stalkers and templars in position only one time, no problem, but if you drop somewhere is hard to make zealots go first than stalkers, if you attack 2 places at once is hard to defend both places with zealots in front of stalkers and sentries with guardian shield protecting then, our units have different range and movement speed, terran can actually start dancing and force a miss-positioning in the protoss army, it's very easy to get caught out of position playing protoss and outright lose the game.
PS: what concave are you talking about? protoss units are larger they need a bigger concave and you should be kiting anyway
On August 28 2011 11:17 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: You're whining about the fact that you have to put zealots in front of stalkers? And colossus in the back?Are you freaking serious? Terran is forced to get perfect concaves vs toss, and you whine because you have to do a little unit positioning? And please, stop crying about utilizing full zealot potential. That applies for every damn unit in the game, and while Zerg and Terran have 2 upgrade paths for ground units, you only have one.
Zerg and Terran have two upgrade paths, but Protoss armor only applies to 1/2 to 2/3rds of the unit's actual life, unlike Zerg/Terran which applies to 100%.
Terran also only needs the "perfect concave" for a small portion of the midgame. Terran has a rather large advantage in engagements in the early game when stim is finished and in the midgame when medivacs are out but colossi + range aren't. Also in the late game the only thing that matters is landing EMPs, if you get all the templar it really doesn't matter how you engage, you're going to slaughter them, and you have cloak to help you do this.
Guys... You're drifting way off topic here. This thread is not about which race is harder to micro - all races have their micro, saying that "race A is amove, but race B require super uber much skill!!!" not only positively identifies you as race B player, it also identifies you as a player that really doesnt have a clue about how the game works. If you can truly be beat by an a-moved army, your macro is probably super uber bad. Two equal armies with the appropriate setup against each other, the player with the better micro wins, regardless of what race he might be playing. Now stop arguing this and get back on topic.
Many of you would be well to slip into your opponents shoes for a while. Let those terrans actually play a few games of protoss and vice versa. Only this way will they understand that what they took for "a-moving" was actually quite a lot of micro and is not so easy after all.
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
Except those ups help your whole army. DT,Zeal, Stalker, Collosi, immortal, sentry, archon. Now divide 1950 by 7.
terran building armor also ups your whole base. Now divide that by 40.
And protoss shield upgrades benefit every building and unit they have. Let's just leave this discussion to that. I mean come on, all 3 races were made to be different no use trying to compare stuff like that when they aren't similar in anyway. -_-''
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
Except those ups help your whole army. DT,Zeal, Stalker, Collosi, immortal, sentry, archon. Now divide 1950 by 7.
terran building armor also ups your whole base. Now divide that by 40.
And protoss shield upgrades benefit every building and unit they have. Let's just leave this discussion to that. I mean come on, all 3 races were made to be different no use trying to compare stuff like that when they aren't similar in anyway. -_-''
I was being sarcastic with zealots because of the raven example and people are discussing it, lol
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
LOL , never quite realized that. The funny thing is, none of them is particularly game changing ("OMG only x seconds until y upgrade is done!!!!"). Not even all of them combined.
Though TBF, Hi-Sec Auto Tracking and Building Armor are quite good for PFs and Missile Turrets.
I now think Idra was right all a long in saying that the game has fundamental design problems. With Mech being a great example of this (not really Idras point ). Blizzard is just trying to have a 50/50 chance of wining for all races to have a healthy pro scene. The expansions are where the "hard core" changes in design should/ will take place. It will require a lot of work from Blizz and i hope they are willing to do it.
I have a worry thought. Its about the blink research time increased from 110 to 140. This is seriously gonna hamper P's response vs the 1 1 1. The reason is the delay 30s compared to a delay that the terran get of just 5s. The immortal buff is not gonna count for anything in this case since immortals are crap vs marines and banshees and tanks out range them plus terran can scan higher ground and he still has the bansees for viewing higher ground or float a building. Colosi is a very poor technique since they only work unless the map is huge or terran decides to go for a coffe before the timing push.
While i believe that the game should be allowed to evolve i seriously think that blizz is cutting some serious corners here for P.
On August 28 2011 22:11 cbueno wrote: I have a worry thought. Its about the blink research time increased from 110 to 140. This is seriously gonna hamper P's response vs the 1 1 1. The reason is the delay 30s compared to a delay that the terran get of just 5s. The immortal buff is not gonna count for anything in this case since immortals are crap vs marines and banshees and tanks out range them plus terran can scan higher ground and he still has the bansees for viewing higher ground or float a building. Colosi is a very poor technique since they only work unless the map is huge or terran decides to go for a coffe before the timing push.
While i believe that the game should be allowed to evolve i seriously think that blizz is cutting some serious corners here for P.
If you seriously have a plan for fending off the 1-1-1 with Blink Stalkers please share it with the rest of the world so that top Protoss players can tear it apart.
On August 26 2011 21:35 rmAmnesiac wrote: rofl. the requirements of being a blue poster. yes maybe i am biased like most people but you've shown yourself to be just as biased in that post. 'Terrans can cast 2-3 EMPs, stim and roflstomp protoss easily.' you're understanding of t vs p in particular is fantastic! perhaps i can suggest you actually learn to play random and all races at a competent level before making huge assumptions about skill levels and how overpowered the terran race is.
also, i guess i am out order to question this theory that terran has dominated indefinitely, and i'm supposed to accept it as fact because a biased protoss says so? am i not entitled to question this theory that because korean terran pros can dominate at high level, terran is therefore overperforming at all levels, and these nerfs are totally justified at all levels of play and for players like me? is there any evidence whatsoever that myself as a measely 500 rated masters terran deserves these huge nerfs?
Do you "really" think that insulting me will help your point?
For the statistics I suggest looking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090 People that follow the scene for a longer time don't question the fact that terran has always been the most succesful race - I don't even know why you would try to argue about that.
Furthermore, you claimed - without any factual evidence - that zerg/protoss could just a-move and win, while terrans had to "outplay". Therefore I provided the example that terran a-move can also be very effective, if you EMP the whole protoss-ball beforehand. Every race has compositions that are able to win fights with pure a-moves if the opponent doesn't respond correctly.
Overall, you just QQ that your race gets a little worse without providing any usuful input for discussion at all. We are supposed to discuss the individual changes here, not whine because we just don't like them.
Those images pretty much sum up why this patch makes sense. Z is dominating ZvP with infestors, so they get nerfed.
T is dominating in general so they get a broad nerf.
Both of these changes seems pretty reasonable to me (I play Z).
rofl you sure know how to answer a persons actual point. unofficial stats relating to the very highest level of play. fantastic and wholly unrepresentative. also, i never said protoss and zerg are a move races but i don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that terran is the race which scales best with very high levels of micro and multitasking ability, which yes is needed pretty in pretty much any bio related compisitions. i can think of A LOT of zerg and protoss units which perform optimally without micro. from a terran arsenal there is? thors? well not against protoss anyway.
Who are you talking to? Yourself?
the concept of quoting a post which you are responding to really isn't a difficult one. perhaps learn to engage your brain?
Read what I wrote and what he responded to. He is talking about stuff I never even said.
He was kinda being an idiot in his thing about unnofical stats relating to the very highest level of play.
It's admitted that balance is different between levels of play. Imba in pro levels is related to actual abilities and dps of units, while imba in pre diamond is closely related to the "Less micro more imba". The magic area of diamond to med masters is the area where these two concepts collide, hence why you hear much more "this is imba" from that range and intelligent arguments presented to support their arguments, cause honestly, some things are imba in that range when taken on a case by case basis.
If you can't balance everyone, balance to the highest point. Balancing to the highest point makes small differences in the overall scheme of things. Balancing to the lowest or the medium can cause a huge issue in the other skill levels.
On August 28 2011 11:17 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
You're whining about the fact that you have to put zealots in front of stalkers? And colossus in the back?Are you freaking serious? Terran is forced to get perfect concaves vs toss, and you whine because you have to do a little unit positioning? And please, stop crying about utilizing full zealot potential. That applies for every damn unit in the game, and while Zerg and Terran have 2 upgrade paths for ground units, you only have one.
1) Stop whining 2) Yes, ravens could be considered pretty bad, but do realize that they are detector-spellcasters. This is why it is hard to equalize ravens. 3) Toss micro takes a lot harder than terran micro. What you have to do is make sure your vikings don't get raped too much before they rape the collosi. However, you shuld never have a problem if each ghosts' EMP was probably as good as each Protoss's Storm. In fact, you should be owning Toss armies if you do get EMPS off at the same skill level as the Protoss's storm.
The proper option for toss is then to usually not engage, because its not worth it at that point then.
Good points. However in point 3, follow point 1. Its obviously not true, and you are clearly just trying to get a response.
And at whoever was saying something about the 1-1-1. Watch mlg. Hero just 3 gate pressured and rolled it. Hard.
On August 28 2011 11:17 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
You're whining about the fact that you have to put zealots in front of stalkers? And colossus in the back?Are you freaking serious? Terran is forced to get perfect concaves vs toss, and you whine because you have to do a little unit positioning? And please, stop crying about utilizing full zealot potential. That applies for every damn unit in the game, and while Zerg and Terran have 2 upgrade paths for ground units, you only have one.
On another Note. The P colossus ball obv requires less micro than bio and are fairly A-move, noone is saying it otherwise. HT on the other hand are where P micro comes in.
If you think that he's sarcastic then you are a fool. Even if he wants it to seem that way, that's 100% what he actually believes, and it's pretty obvious, considering how much he whines about Protoss in the previous paragraph.
On August 28 2011 11:17 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
On August 28 2011 10:38 rpgalon wrote: chargelot is A-move, but you have to always put then on front of the stalkers/sentries, colossus need to always be behind the army, every move command you do, you have to put then in their correct positions, it is something terran does not need to do when they go MMM.
the difference between MMM, that don't matter from where you attack and a standard protoss army that has front, middle and "rear", is huge, and have already caused the defeat of many professionals because they were caught by surprise.
EDIT:
On August 28 2011 09:43 Griffith` wrote: One of the things I fucking hate about the raven is the amount of research upgrades it needs to be viable:
Consider Auto-Turrets:
Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy
Consider HSM:
HSM Research Raven Energy
Consider PDD:
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking (+1 Range) Raven Energy Durable Materials (Lasts Longer) Building Armor (+2 Building Armor)
In other words, for a raven to fully utilize its potential, the terran player needs to spend
800 Minerals and 900 Gas
LOL
lol, a zealot to utilize it full potential takes 200/200 charge 525/525 ground weapons +1 +2 +3 525/525 ground armor +1 +2 +3 900/900 plasma shields +1 +2 +3
2150/2150 OMFG!!!
....
You're whining about the fact that you have to put zealots in front of stalkers? And colossus in the back?Are you freaking serious? Terran is forced to get perfect concaves vs toss, and you whine because you have to do a little unit positioning? And please, stop crying about utilizing full zealot potential. That applies for every damn unit in the game, and while Zerg and Terran have 2 upgrade paths for ground units, you only have one.
On another Note. The P colossus ball obv requires less micro than bio and are fairly A-move, noone is saying it otherwise. HT on the other hand are where P micro comes in.
If you think that he's sarcastic then you are a fool. Even if he wants it to seem that way, that's 100% what he actually believes, and it's pretty obvious, considering how much he whines about Protoss in the previous paragraph.
As a protoss player I like the changes more or less (infestor maybe not nerfed enough?). But my general observation (not just this patch) is that it is mostly boring protoss units that get buffed (archon, immortal) and the more interesting, fun, micro-oriented units (void ray, high templar, stalker, mothership) get nerfed. Warp prism is the only exception.
I also feel like the new patch only reinforces the dominance of the robo tech tree over stargate and TC openings.
On August 30 2011 00:28 eugalp wrote: As a protoss player I like the changes more or less (infestor maybe not nerfed enough?).
Damage decreased by 16%. It will deal roughly a third of what storm deals over the same duration. Is it all about the root?
But my general observation (not just this patch) is that it is mostly boring protoss units that get buffed (archon, immortal) and the more interesting, fun, micro-oriented units (void ray, high templar, stalker, mothership) get nerfed. Warp prism is the only exception.
Mostly opinion. You say archon and immortal are "boring", while void ray is "fun" (all 3 are a-move units). Higher Templar and Archon are for the most part the same unit (you can always turn B into A). Mothership was actually buffed, oddly enough.
I also feel like the new patch only reinforces the dominance of the robo tech tree over stargate and TC openings.
Blizz wants to strongly suggest the robo in PvP (instead of twilight or just no tech) to make the matchup less retarded. Observers make it less coinflippy, and immortals return defender's advantage to the equation. Something may need to be done about colossi however...
Against Z and T, Stargate Robo and TC are all viable tech paths so I don't know what you're talking about.
On August 30 2011 00:58 Morphling_ wrote: Damage decreased by 16%. It will deal roughly a third of what storm deals over the same duration. Is it all about the root?
FG is only one ability out of 3, each of which is very powerful IMO. Infestor is an incredibly versatile spellcaster which pretty much allows zerg to mass it. You don't see protoss players walking around with 12+ HTs.
Mostly opinion. You say archon and immortal are "boring", while void ray is "fun" (all 3 are a-move units). Higher Templar and Archon are for the most part the same unit (you can always turn B into A). Mothership was actually buffed, oddly enough.
VR is not at "a-move" unit since you have to keep them alive. If you can a-move with VRs, you probably already won (or are in silver league). The fact that many protoss players don't even bother with storm anymore and morph templars into archons immediately is bad IMO. Acceleration buff for MS is very marginal compared to the previous nerf (and the overall expense of the unit itself).
On August 30 2011 00:58 Morphling_ wrote:Blizz wants to strongly suggest the robo in PvP (instead of twilight or just no tech) to make the matchup less retarded. Observers make it less coinflippy, and immortals return defender's advantage to the equation. Something may need to be done about colossi however...
Against Z and T, Stargate Robo and TC are all viable tech paths so I don't know what you're talking about.
Stargate tech can be used to exploit zerg's weak anti-air and force spores but not much more than that. Look at Tyler's game vs Haypro at MLG. Carriers are almost never seen.
On August 29 2011 03:47 darklight54321 wrote: He was kinda being an idiot in his thing about unnofical stats relating to the very highest level of play.
It's admitted that balance is different between levels of play. Imba in pro levels is related to actual abilities and dps of units, while imba in pre diamond is closely related to the "Less micro more imba". The magic area of diamond to med masters is the area where these two concepts collide, hence why you hear much more "this is imba" from that range and intelligent arguments presented to support their arguments, cause honestly, some things are imba in that range when taken on a case by case basis.
If you can't balance everyone, balance to the highest point. Balancing to the highest point makes small differences in the overall scheme of things. Balancing to the lowest or the medium can cause a huge issue in the other skill levels.
This is so good post, untill the last section where conclusion is pretty amazingly false.
At no point this game should have gone to point, where balance is compensated by players need to be better. This is the worst thing that has happend and is affecting this game. At highest level of play being able to multitask, micro and macro same time is so far ahead of normal level of play, that those players are compensating the lack of balance by being faster and better, as such making races looks like balanced. Every time we see for example huge blink micro, we should ask is that something that normal player can do, if not is the game balanced without such skill. Or we see guy doing 3 drops simultaneously, or making almost perfect injections while fighting with main army and rebuilding, the question should be the same.
This raises the question, is it truly so that game should be balanced by top pros, or should game actually be balanced by something in between. Where the lack of skills compensation wouldnt be such huge deciding factor. After that balance would be achieved, all the skills taht players would be able to gather, would be their weapons to be better than their competitors. Instead of normal playing being huge amount of balance compensation and trying to get upper hand, by puttin enemy to situation where balance lacks for that race and theirs is more powerful.
By this I dont mean race v same race matches, cause there balance is always neglecting each others and even players need to overcome race weaknesses and real race problems, both are at even ground. I talk about stuff that makes playing certain race without huge expertiese, micro and macro, at level where no matter what race is played those would be "same" (not same same, but hope you get the point). If player can at top of that play superb micro or do insane 3 drops at time, then they should and must be better than their enemies, currently it just isnt so and guys who play worse are able to win at situations, where they should not, at least as long as we base discussion to races and not players skill.
I think that the combination of the nerf of the blink research , the up of the immortal and the change of the view will make blink play less popular in PvP , so everyone's going to play robo . But it'll make the stargate opener better because there won't be anymore blink play .
On August 30 2011 03:08 eugalp wrote: FG is only one ability out of 3, each of which is very powerful IMO. Infestor is an incredibly versatile spellcaster which pretty much allows zerg to mass it. You don't see protoss players walking around with 12+ HTs.
You are acting like High templar don't have other amazing abilities, a move that decimates casters (including the big bad infestor), as well as the ability to turn into an attacking unit (Infestor is the only unit in the game that requires energy to have an impact on a battle).
As for walking around with 12+ HTs, maybe they should? The obvious drawback of the HT which is not present in the Infestor is the movespeed issue, but you can always shuttle them around in a Warp Prism (I have seen HuK and others do it, and its only going to get better after the patch).
VR is not at "a-move" unit since you have to keep them alive. If you can a-move with VRs, you probably already won (or are in silver league). The fact that many protoss players don't even bother with storm anymore and morph templars into archons immediately is bad IMO. Acceleration buff for MS is very marginal compared to the previous nerf (and the overall expense of the unit itself).
Is there a reason why it's important to keep VRs alive but not important to keep archons and immortals alive? They are all roughly the same cost. Pulling back a low shield archon will give you essentially an entirely fresh one after shields recharge, and likewise the Immortal will regain powerful tanking ability due to the passive. To play devil's advocate for a moment, you could argue that it is more important to keep those 2 alive than it is a void ray.
They morph archons because archons are good. Some players won't research storm, because against some army types you don't want it. Generally though, if you are facing bio or heavy ling play then I feel it would be a mistake not to get storm. Implying that storm is a weak ability seems very silly to me.
Acceleration buff is pretty critical given that a primary complaint of how the mothership operates is that it is incredibly lacking in mobility. A mothership is still an extremely powerful and versatile unit.
Stargate tech can be used to exploit zerg's weak anti-air and force spores but not much more than that. Look at Tyler's game vs Haypro at MLG. Carriers are almost never seen.
If Stargate is a relatively weak strategy, then instead of pointing to 2 low level pros playing a non-serious game (tyler wanted to let haypro win to keep his seed), could you address why the player who is widely considered the best protoss in the world has been opening stargate against zerg nearly every game for months?
You can't pull back units affected by concussive shells or fungal growth. Generally any short-range units that you put into a fight as protoss are committed to the death.
Storm is situationally good. Because it does not stack with itself, it's pretty useless against high HP units such as roaches, thors, and ultras. Even marauders with sufficient medivac healing can laugh it off unless you have colossus in the battle as well (especially because with stim it's easy to run out from under storm, usually kiting backwards so the zealots eat more storm damage than the marauders).
Colossus are generally better than templar for AOE damage for several reasons. First, colossus damage stacks. With ~5 colossus, every attack melts a row of marauders -- no medivac can heal fast enough to mitigate the damage. There is no way to achieve that effect with storm, regardless of the number of templar. Second, colossus AOE does not damage friendly units. Third, colosus can walk on top of your army; unlike templar you will never end up with a colossus unable to attack because it's trapped behind your other forces. Fourth, colossus AOE is direct damage, not a damage-over-time spell where the damage done depends on how long the enemy units stupidly stand still beneath it.
Colossus are the superior protoss AOE, probably the best AOE in the game.
What about other races' AOE units? Tank damage stacks and is direct damage. Fungal growth does not damage friendly units and opponents cannot run away from it. EMP stacks, is direct damage, and does not damage friendly units -- hp-wise, anyway. It also decloaks enemy units. HSM is direct damage that most units cannot escape; it stacks and the raven will never be trapped behind your army.
Storm is good because it's an AOE ability and AOE is good. But Storm is probably the worst AOE ability in the game. So protoss get the best and the worst. This is why protoss strategy considers the templar to be a transition or back-up unit: If you start gateway heavy, you use templar as a stop-gap caster to bridge your way to colossus. If you go robo-heavy from the start, templar are your fallback once too many vikings or corruptors get out...but ultimately you're just scraping by until you can manage to start building colossus again.
Stargate plays are only useful so long as you can leverage void rays and phoenix to keep the enemy's unit count low and thus avoid needing AOE. No successful protoss air strategy can allow the opponent to get a large ground or air army before transitioning into colossus. So stargate plays are either transitional or they're all-in; it's not a viable "end game goal" tech tree because it has no AOE.
On August 30 2011 07:13 galivet wrote: You can't pull back units affected by concussive shells or fungal growth. Generally any short-range units that you put into a fight as protoss are committed to the death.
Storm is situationally good. Because it does not stack with itself, it's pretty useless against high HP units such as roaches, thors, and ultras. Even marauders with sufficient medivac healing can laugh it off unless you have colossus in the battle as well (especially because with stim it's easy to run out from under storm, usually kiting backwards so the zealots eat more storm damage than the marauders).
Colossus are generally better than templar for AOE damage for several reasons. First, colossus damage stacks. With ~5 colossus, every attack melts a row of marauders -- no medivac can heal fast enough to mitigate the damage. There is no way to achieve that effect with storm, regardless of the number of templar. Second, colossus AOE does not damage friendly units. Third, colosus can walk on top of your army; unlike templar you will never end up with a colossus unable to attack because it's trapped behind your other forces. Fourth, colossus AOE is direct damage, not a damage-over-time spell where the damage done depends on how long the enemy units stupidly stand still beneath it.
Colossus are the superior protoss AOE, probably the best AOE in the game.
What about other races' AOE units? Tank damage stacks and is direct damage. Fungal growth does not damage friendly units and opponents cannot run away from it. EMP stacks, is direct damage, and does not damage friendly units -- hp-wise, anyway. It also decloaks enemy units. HSM is direct damage that most units cannot escape; it stacks and the raven will never be trapped behind your army.
Storm is good because it's an AOE ability and AOE is good. But Storm is probably the worst AOE ability in the game. So protoss get the best and the worst. This is why protoss strategy considers the templar to be a transition or back-up unit: If you start gateway heavy, you use templar as a stop-gap caster to bridge your way to colossus. If you go robo-heavy from the start, templar are your fallback once too many vikings or corruptors get out...but ultimately you're just scraping by until you can manage to start building colossus again.
Stargate plays are only useful so long as you can leverage void rays and phoenix to keep the enemy's unit count low and thus avoid needing AOE. No successful protoss air strategy can allow the opponent to get a large ground or air army before transitioning into colossus. So stargate plays are either transitional or they're all-in; it's not a viable "end game goal" tech tree because it has no AOE.
Starcraft 2 is all about AOE damage.
Awesome post. I wouldn't say that SC2 is all about AoE damage, but against some enemy compositions you need it to be cost effective, for example against Terran bio once medivacs are out, since Protoss can't win in a direct (big) engagement without AoE support, unless ridiculously ahead in upgrades or supply (or both).
On August 29 2011 03:47 darklight54321 wrote: He was kinda being an idiot in his thing about unnofical stats relating to the very highest level of play.
It's admitted that balance is different between levels of play. Imba in pro levels is related to actual abilities and dps of units, while imba in pre diamond is closely related to the "Less micro more imba". The magic area of diamond to med masters is the area where these two concepts collide, hence why you hear much more "this is imba" from that range and intelligent arguments presented to support their arguments, cause honestly, some things are imba in that range when taken on a case by case basis.
If you can't balance everyone, balance to the highest point. Balancing to the highest point makes small differences in the overall scheme of things. Balancing to the lowest or the medium can cause a huge issue in the other skill levels.
This is so good post, untill the last section where conclusion is pretty amazingly false.
At no point this game should have gone to point, where balance is compensated by players need to be better. This is the worst thing that has happend and is affecting this game. At highest level of play being able to multitask, micro and macro same time is so far ahead of normal level of play, that those players are compensating the lack of balance by being faster and better, as such making races looks like balanced. Every time we see for example huge blink micro, we should ask is that something that normal player can do, if not is the game balanced without such skill. Or we see guy doing 3 drops simultaneously, or making almost perfect injections while fighting with main army and rebuilding, the question should be the same.
This raises the question, is it truly so that game should be balanced by top pros, or should game actually be balanced by something in between. Where the lack of skills compensation wouldnt be such huge deciding factor. After that balance would be achieved, all the skills taht players would be able to gather, would be their weapons to be better than their competitors. Instead of normal playing being huge amount of balance compensation and trying to get upper hand, by puttin enemy to situation where balance lacks for that race and theirs is more powerful.
By this I dont mean race v same race matches, cause there balance is always neglecting each others and even players need to overcome race weaknesses and real race problems, both are at even ground. I talk about stuff that makes playing certain race without huge expertiese, micro and macro, at level where no matter what race is played those would be "same" (not same same, but hope you get the point). If player can at top of that play superb micro or do insane 3 drops at time, then they should and must be better than their enemies, currently it just isnt so and guys who play worse are able to win at situations, where they should not, at least as long as we base discussion to races and not players skill.
I hesitate to quote such a large post that is mostly babble in the way it's presented, but I will.
Your argument is one i've heard before, The idea that having that high level of skill negates the imbalance of certain situations because they can do stuff that most people couldn't do. I feel like this has some merit, but not enough for the current balance issue to change. For two reasons.
Reason 1, The economical reason. By keeping the game balancing at the highest standard they keep the game competitive. Bigger competition means more viewers more people who get into the game and more people who will buy blizzard goods. If you took the Esports out of blizzard, blizzard would be a shell of a company. By not balancing to the Esports level, they would essentially ruin the competition part of the game.
Reason 2, the actual balance reason. The very same reason that you say allows for slight imbalances in pro games is your own argument. If professional are evenly matched even with those minor balance issues (as i'll address those things that are not obvious like BFH or Infestors or KA HT when combined with warp mechanic) Then what would it be if those minor balance issues were "fixed". The old Collosi Deathball A move problem. If they had nerfed the deathball when zerg could counter it (as they have learned how to now) then it would have reverberated into the pro level. Any minor nerf could potentially make a core unit in the toss army useless, making what is right now the weakest race on the pro scene even weaker. This whole idea is the basis for my original conclusion. When you balance to the highest level, the minor balance issues are just that, minor. While they may be a bit imba in some situations in some matchups at certain skill levels, it does not make a huge difference in the overall scheme of the game. Something that's imba in diamond/masters may not be imba in the other leagues. Something that's imba in bronze/gold may not be imba in other leagues. But for the most part, things that are imba in the proffessional scene are generally imba in the majority of leagues. BFH is one example. Even the worst terran can make use of BFHs simply because of the cost to defend it through teching or spines or suicidal lings.
When you make the argument of the professional having the ability to handle slightly op mechanics, you also need to remember that the one whose doing the slightly op mechanic is also professional, and that same bonus to defend goes to offense.
On August 30 2011 00:58 Morphling_ wrote: Damage decreased by 16%. It will deal roughly a third of what storm deals over the same duration. Is it all about the root?
Pretty much. Remember that fungal and feedback have the same range, meaning infestors do not have a real counter. If you keep templar in the back of your army, infestors can just fungal the front and run back, if you move templar to the front they get sniped in seconds. Also you can't use templar to prevent mass parasite because its cast before you can feedback.
On August 30 2011 07:13 galivet wrote: You can't pull back units affected by concussive shells or fungal growth. Generally any short-range units that you put into a fight as protoss are committed to the death.
Conveniently forgetting about forcefield. Your statement now becomes: Any short range ground unit in the game is always commited to death when it fights. Do you really think that is true?
Storm is situationally good. Because it does not stack with itself, it's pretty useless against high HP units such as roaches, thors, and ultras. Even marauders with sufficient medivac healing can laugh it off unless you have colossus in the battle as well (especially because with stim it's easy to run out from under storm, usually kiting backwards so the zealots eat more storm damage than the marauders).
Whoa this is ridiculous. You claim that Storm, which does more than twice as much as fungal, can be "laughed off". Its "useless" against high hp units. So fungal is even more useless against them right? Then the second part of the statement is contradictory. First you imply its easy to laugh off the damage, then comment on how its easy to get out of the damage. Which one is it?
If you tank the storm, you are taking massive damage. If you move out of the storm, you are not attacking while you are moving, and Toss is free to restorm the new spot.
Colossus are generally better than templar for AOE damage for several reasons. First, colossus damage stacks. With ~5 colossus, every attack melts a row of marauders -- no medivac can heal fast enough to mitigate the damage. There is no way to achieve that effect with storm, regardless of the number of templar. Second, colossus AOE does not damage friendly units. Third, colosus can walk on top of your army; unlike templar you will never end up with a colossus unable to attack because it's trapped behind your other forces. Fourth, colossus AOE is direct damage, not a damage-over-time spell where the damage done depends on how long the enemy units stupidly stand still beneath it.
Colossus are the superior protoss AOE, probably the best AOE in the game.
When i started responding I thought you were the same guy I had been talking with before but I see that you are not. So I don't know about your stance on fungal, but every problem you have with HT can be directly applied to Infestors. Medivacs will be able to heal fungal fast enough, way faster than they can heal storm. Infestors can also be stuck behind the army and not be able to cast.
Also again the ignorance about "they can just run out". By the time any unit besides stimmed bio can actually make it out of the storm, assuming fighter pilot reflexes, it will tick for at least 2 seconds, which is 40 damage (fungal level damage). During that time, the unit could not attack, and can be immediately stormed again.
Your thoughts on Colossi are pretty accurate, but constantly forgetting that they are way more expensive than templar are, and expecting them to be equal units. Lots and lots and lots of pros favor templar over colossi these days, which sort of goes against your thoughts.
Storm is good because it's an AOE ability and AOE is good. But Storm is probably the worst AOE ability in the game. So protoss get the best and the worst. This is why protoss strategy considers the templar to be a transition or back-up unit: If you start gateway heavy, you use templar as a stop-gap caster to bridge your way to colossus. If you go robo-heavy from the start, templar are your fallback once too many vikings or corruptors get out...but ultimately you're just scraping by until you can manage to start building colossus again.
I strongly disagree that Storm is the worst, especially in a world with hunter seeker missle.
Stargate plays are only useful so long as you can leverage void rays and phoenix to keep the enemy's unit count low and thus avoid needing AOE. No successful protoss air strategy can allow the opponent to get a large ground or air army before transitioning into colossus. So stargate plays are either transitional or they're all-in; it's not a viable "end game goal" tech tree because it has no AOE.
Sort of like... Hellions. Or Roaches. Or Mutalisks. Or Banshees.
Nobody uses those right?
(again assuming you are talking that stargate isn't viable, im not sure what your thoughts are on that though)
Starcraft 2 is all about AOE damage.
If that is true, why do many protoss think that the race that only has a single aoe ability, with the lowest damage of any aoe in the game, is generally beating "the aoe race"?
Personally, I don't think snipe is that great against Ultralisks at all. It takes 10+ snipes or something ridiculous like that. And during that time, you can't micro anything else.
For you two arguing about storm/fungal the argument is pointless. IN a PvZ match up, infestors are stronger, no doubt. In a PvT vs ZvT match up they both have their strong spots and can be equally powerful. The infestor is the most versatile spell caster, no questions. High Templar are "disposable" in that their main purpose in modern play is the morph. The High Templar support army is dead in professional gaming except in a few specific cases. KA did some of this, but more so that people no longer got screwed cause they knew what to do when facing HTs. Zealot/archon is now the main gateway army late game.
Face it, the Storm days are mostly over except as a transitionary move. Some pros dont even bother to research it anymore, using only a few unmorphed HTs to feedback or not even having unmorphed HTs.
In another argument, fungal is far more effective in late game for zerg, when there are disposable lings, fungals dont hurt their own units. When you kite a storm, you either force the zealot into the storm or force a quick withdrawal. Only storm chain allows for storm play against modern terran, and as i stated before. ARchons are considered a more valuable asset now.
You are acting like High templar don't have other amazing abilities, a move that decimates casters (including the big bad infestor), as well as the ability to turn into an attacking unit (Infestor is the only unit in the game that requires energy to have an impact on a battle).
As for walking around with 12+ HTs, maybe they should? The obvious drawback of the HT which is not present in the Infestor is the movespeed issue, but you can always shuttle them around in a Warp Prism (I have seen HuK and others do it, and its only going to get better after the patch).
I don't really feel like getting into a whole balance debate; that was not my main point. But I stand by my comment about infestors. Spellcasters should be support units that enhance your army and shouldn't be massed. However when you can mind control key enemy units and also create dozens of 0 cost cannon fodder units that have more dps than a stalker (+bonus) then you pretty much can have an army out of infestors alone. The other thing which you implied is that infestors are much more likely to survive in battle - they are fairly fast even off creep, they can borrow and fungal stops the pursuit. HTs are simply not as flexible and are more likely to die. If you make too many HTs than the rest of your army will be shit.
Feedback is a really nice ability but for a variety of reasons (speed of HT, very micro intensive) it is better on paper than in practice. Even at the pro level from what I've seen. Warp prism buff might remedy this somewhat. I hope it does.
Is there a reason why it's important to keep VRs alive but not important to keep archons and immortals alive? They are all roughly the same cost. Pulling back a low shield archon will give you essentially an entirely fresh one after shields recharge, and likewise the Immortal will regain powerful tanking ability due to the passive. To play devil's advocate for a moment, you could argue that it is more important to keep those 2 alive than it is a void ray.
They morph archons because archons are good. Some players won't research storm, because against some army types you don't want it. Generally though, if you are facing bio or heavy ling play then I feel it would be a mistake not to get storm. Implying that storm is a weak ability seems very silly to me.
Acceleration buff is pretty critical given that a primary complaint of how the mothership operates is that it is incredibly lacking in mobility. A mothership is still an extremely powerful and versatile unit.
All units can be pulled back when hurt. Void ray is different in that, like most flying units, it can be used to harass and can function independently of your main army. The charge mechanic adds another level to it. I do hope though that with the WP buff, immortals and archons will be dropped more in the future.
Re archons, maybe I'm thinking about BW too much but in BW it was almost always worth it to research storm. Yes, archons were made too but unless you were about to die to mutas right now, you always kept a couple of HTs around for storm.
I still don't see the MS becoming part of standard play. Even with the buff it will still be one of the slowest units in the game.
If Stargate is a relatively weak strategy, then instead of pointing to 2 low level pros playing a non-serious game (tyler wanted to let haypro win to keep his seed), could you address why the player who is widely considered the best protoss in the world has been opening stargate against zerg nearly every game for months?
I already said that zergs have a relatively weak anti-air in the early game. Stargate tech is sufficient to exploit certain timing windows but will not really win you games.
On August 30 2011 05:22 Morphling_ wrote: (Infestor is the only unit in the game that requires energy to have an impact on a battle).
Ravens.
Ravens detect. The point about infestors stand.
In addition, for the whole "Oh my god high templars are super weak" argument: In the current metagame, high templars are maybe not the best AoE unit but that does hardly make them weak. Ever tried chain storming a roach ball off creep? They move so incredibly slow that even though they are "beefy tank units that can just shrug the damage off", they get softened up so much that a standard gateway army - that is supposedly weak against roaches - will laugh all over them. Do you realise how much apm it actually takes to NP every HT inside a protoss ball WHILE fungaling them to secure vs blinkstalker and without getting a single feedback in the process ruining your "mass NP"?
And with respects to stargate play, I hugely disgaree with your point on that as well. Void rays are simply amazing. The only way to costefficiently combat a big pack of void rays is with hydralisks - a unit that zerg is hesitant to get, because IF they get them and the protoss gets colossi around the same time, they are in such a bad spot. Corruptors get annihilated by void rays - so much so that its not even funny. You almost need double the amount of corruptors to fight void rays, which is both more expensive and more supply heavy. Add in 2 or 3 carriers that the corruptors must focusfire first - and keep in mind the carriers will be in the back of the army - the void rays will be almost fully charged by the time the carriers are dead, ripping the corruptors apart. As a side bonus, carriers are insanely strong vs hydralisks. Stargate heavy play is awesome but tricky to pull off. Much like mass mutalisk play or mass banshee / viking play.
In addition, for the whole "Oh my god high templars are super weak" argument: In the current metagame, high templars are maybe not the best AoE unit but that does hardly make them weak. Ever tried chain storming a roach ball off creep? They move so incredibly slow that even though they are "beefy tank units that can just shrug the damage off", they get softened up so much that a standard gateway army - that is supposedly weak against roaches - will laugh all over them. Do you realise how much apm it actually takes to NP every HT inside a protoss ball WHILE fungaling them to secure vs blinkstalker and without getting a single feedback in the process ruining your "mass NP"?
And with respects to stargate play, I hugely disgaree with your point on that as well. Void rays are simply amazing. The only way to costefficiently combat a big pack of void rays is with hydralisks - a unit that zerg is hesitant to get, because IF they get them and the protoss gets colossi around the same time, they are in such a bad spot. Corruptors get annihilated by void rays - so much so that its not even funny. You almost need double the amount of corruptors to fight void rays, which is both more expensive and more supply heavy. Add in 2 or 3 carriers that the corruptors must focusfire first - and keep in mind the carriers will be in the back of the army - the void rays will be almost fully charged by the time the carriers are dead, ripping the corruptors apart. As a side bonus, carriers are insanely strong vs hydralisks. Stargate heavy play is awesome but tricky to pull off. Much like mass mutalisk play or mass banshee / viking play.
Actually, I have tried that. They burrow and outheal storm, it's pretty funny. Templar are simply not any good at all against Zerg. They were good when Zerg used mutalisks and zerglings but not now. They do nothing to roaches or brood lords, and they don't function well as an infestor counter. They're horrifically easy to snipe and you have to spend 100 APM keeping them split up or the Zerg can just erase them all with a few fungals.
It's pretty easy to mass parasite Protoss when infestors move faster than templar and all their spells have the same range as feedback, just stop them out of range and tell them to cast their spells, it's impossible for the Protoss to feedback them before they cast.
As for corruptors - so what? Who uses corruptors? Lots of colossus is easy to counter, just make 15 infestors and NP/fungal spam the ball to death. You'll lose a few to colossus shots but you're zerg, you always have way more resources than the opponent. Protoss is all about killing the Zerg before they get a critical mass of infestors because you cannot do anything about this unit if they have a bunch of them. Late game Protoss is completely hopeless vs Zerg as Zerg will make brood lords and fungal completely demolishes the two counter units, namely blink stalkers and void rays.
Ever tried microing void rays and adding just one or two carriers to the mix? Fungal demolishes void ray balls, but if you spread them out fungals are suddenly a terrible choice - but you still must spam them or you get raped by the void rays, who incidentally deal bonus damage to infestors. Sure, a big clumped up ball of protoss units get killed by fungal - surprise. Try micro
Also, burrowed roaches might outheal a storm, but they wont outheal the stalker ball firing away at them at the same time.
Hellions with BFH can still 2 shot zerglings.. I didn't understand the part where zerglings are better off with the new patch!?? They still die to 2 shots.. and this is not splash this is AOE.. so damage is dealt uniformly ...
I dont know if people have noticed this but here it is. The storm has been nerfed almost to death and people produce very few HT for storm but instead for archon. It not like before where there used to be a large amount of HTs. Now most Protoss will have max 3 HTs for storm cos cannot be afforded and its not cost effective. But here is the catch >> Terran actually produce a lot of ghost now days. We see Terrans have an average of 6 ghost or more in their armies now far more outwaying the HTs. So the game has turned from a HT "storm party" to a Ghost "EMP carnaval".
I hope Blizz identify it and changes it a bit whether one gets a nerf or the other gets a buff. But there is a distinct window open of disbalance here.
I love how protoss have no idea about the level of micro a T needs. TLO played random for a long time at pro level and I've seen him say T is the most micro intensive race by far (not harder - just more micro). I seriously think most pros would agree (maybe except for super biased pros like Idra)
Just because you have to do a greater volume of micro as terran doesn't mean that the micro is more difficult than what protoss need to do.
What does terran have to do against protoss?
Fly a dropship at the protoss main, drop off some bio, stim and shift-click some buildings (or a-move at a mineral line). If necessary select the bio, click them into the dropship, then fly it away.
Cloak ghosts, run in and EMP the deathball. Run ghosts away. Stim and at-move in at the bioball with medivacs following, then start stutter-stepping backwards (or forwards if the ball tries to retreat). Shift-click Target-fire vikings on colossus. Back vikings out if main army is cut off by forcefields due to bad EMP.
Ya, you have to do multiple things, but none of them require any real finesse or precision and the timings are pretty lose. There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to place 6 perfect forcefields in less than two seconds or die right here." There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to individually target 5 ghosts for feedback while keeping my templar spread or my whole army will be EMP'd". No TvP equivalent to "I need to fly this warp prism just alongside the kiting bio, drop templar, storm, move prism forward, drop templar, storm, move prism forward..."
Protoss have fewer individual things that benefit from micro, but all of those things have to micro'd with great precision, finesse, and timing or they're completely ineffective or even counter-productive (e.g. bad FF protecting the bio from charging zealots; bad storm killing your own zealots).
Just stop+f1(hold) click all around your base with the minimap. Just get used to it, it takes about 3 seconds to do and it works wonders against banelings too
Oh and by the way, protoss' new composition zealot+archons and HT vs zerg is simply deadly, especially when they add voidrays in the late game (I'm talking about after a Forge fe + single VR, so they already have a SG) Don't give me that HT and VR are underpowered T_T
Personally I think everyone fretting over PvZ or PvP (with regards to the blink change) is insane.
PvT is the matchup I think it will affect the most. Currently blink stalkers (or blink+obs) is the safest, most reliable way to punish a terran going gasless expansion. Usually the early attacks from blink come at a very specific timing when a gasless-expanding terran will not have marauders out yet, etc. With 30 (or 20 if ur fully chronoing) seconds more to prepare, I'm pretty certain we're going to see many terrans taking gasless expansions a lot more often as it will be that much more safe.
On August 30 2011 16:54 Thraundil wrote: carriers are insanely strong vs hydralisks. Stargate heavy play is awesome but tricky to pull off. Much like mass mutalisk play or mass banshee / viking play.
Strong vs hydras? Have you ever tried using carriers vs 3/3 hydras? Any smart Zerg player would target interceptors before the actual carrier. They dps so hard that you don't lose many hydras at all.
I lol when toss players go mass stargate because they think no Zerg will mass hydras. And I would like to see someone legitimately go carrier tech and then switch to robo without dying.
Just because you have to do a greater volume of micro as terran doesn't mean that the micro is more difficult than what protoss need to do.
What does terran have to do against protoss?
Fly a dropship at the protoss main, drop off some bio, stim and shift-click some buildings (or a-move at a mineral line). If necessary select the bio, click them into the dropship, then fly it away.
Cloak ghosts, run in and EMP the deathball. Run ghosts away. Stim and at-move in at the bioball with medivacs following, then start stutter-stepping backwards (or forwards if the ball tries to retreat). Shift-click Target-fire vikings on colossus. Back vikings out if main army is cut off by forcefields due to bad EMP.
Ya, you have to do multiple things, but none of them require any real finesse or precision and the timings are pretty lose. There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to place 6 perfect forcefields in less than two seconds or die right here." There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to individually target 5 ghosts for feedback while keeping my templar spread or my whole army will be EMP'd". No TvP equivalent to "I need to fly this warp prism just alongside the kiting bio, drop templar, storm, move prism forward, drop templar, storm, move prism forward..."
Protoss have fewer individual things that benefit from micro, but all of those things have to micro'd with great precision, finesse, and timing or they're completely ineffective or even counter-productive (e.g. bad FF protecting the bio from charging zealots; bad storm killing your own zealots).
I dont mean to insult you but you dont have a clue and your post shows it. All that viking focusing, bioball-stutter and emp firing is the easy part, trust me. I will try to describe the complexity but I doubt you'll understand it until you try playing T at a "medium" level. The hard part TvP can be described as having a "living" concave of bio dodging splash from collossus and storm while moving squads of marauders to snipe colossus from sides and kiting smaller bioballs against speedlots. And yes then there's the drops and vikings and whatnot that you have to manage simultaneously.
I'm not saying P has an easy time to defend against early bio pushes or drops - I play toss at a low diamond level and I have a hard time defending stim timings as well but I know you cant compare deathball micro to bioball micro.
On August 31 2011 00:43 -orb- wrote: Personally I think everyone fretting over PvZ or PvP (with regards to the blink change) is insane.
PvT is the matchup I think it will affect the most. Currently blink stalkers (or blink+obs) is the safest, most reliable way to punish a terran going gasless expansion. Usually the early attacks from blink come at a very specific timing when a gasless-expanding terran will not have marauders out yet, etc. With 30 (or 20 if ur fully chronoing) seconds more to prepare, I'm pretty certain we're going to see many terrans taking gasless expansions a lot more often as it will be that much more safe.
I'm more worried about PvT for an entirely different reason. I have always advocated going blink before charge when playing a macro game in order to defend better vs multi-prong attacks when taking a third base. With the new patch, there will be a 30 second window where I would've had charge done in the current patch but not in the new one. The delay on blink might force everyone to go charge first to be safe.
On August 30 2011 16:54 Thraundil wrote: carriers are insanely strong vs hydralisks. Stargate heavy play is awesome but tricky to pull off. Much like mass mutalisk play or mass banshee / viking play.
Strong vs hydras? Have you ever tried using carriers vs 3/3 hydras? Any smart Zerg player would target interceptors before the actual carrier. They dps so hard that you don't lose many hydras at all.
I lol when toss players go mass stargate because they think no Zerg will mass hydras. And I would like to see someone legitimately go carrier tech and then switch to robo without dying.
Usually when I mess about on my high diamond protoss smurf account and go double stargate off 2 bases, and get void rays, carriers and lots of speedzealots. Void rays counter every unit once charged, and if these 3/3 hydras that you're talking about focus interceptors, they will then be faced with charged void rays, and carriers that can restock their weapons. And hydralisks need an efficient meatshield to defend vs zealots, no matter what unit you choose it either cuts back on your hydra count, or gets countered by the zealots themselves.
I am not saying stargate is overpowered, but I am saying that the claim that "stargate tech is the worst and its totally useless" is the same as saying "mass mutalisks can never work in ZvP, ever". Both unit setups are mega bad if you countered.
On August 31 2011 05:46 Revelatus wrote: I like the prism change, but we still don't have anything that is worth dropping until late game, when they probably have a strong economy anyways.
Lately there has been evidence to the contrary with several skilled players making effective use of zealot drops to pin opponents' armies, snipe tech structures, and force mistakes. Seems like a decent way to dump excess minerals during the period of the game when you aren't building colossus for whatever reason.
On August 31 2011 00:43 -orb- wrote: Personally I think everyone fretting over PvZ or PvP (with regards to the blink change) is insane.
PvT is the matchup I think it will affect the most. Currently blink stalkers (or blink+obs) is the safest, most reliable way to punish a terran going gasless expansion. Usually the early attacks from blink come at a very specific timing when a gasless-expanding terran will not have marauders out yet, etc. With 30 (or 20 if ur fully chronoing) seconds more to prepare, I'm pretty certain we're going to see many terrans taking gasless expansions a lot more often as it will be that much more safe.
Agreed. I think this is almost exclusively to address powerful blink-stalker openings on Tal'Darim etc. It's incredibly easy to win as a Protoss player on this map vs a gasless expand.
On August 31 2011 00:32 galivet wrote: Just because you have to do a greater volume of micro as terran doesn't mean that the micro is more difficult than what protoss need to do.
What does terran have to do against protoss?
Fly a dropship at the protoss main, drop off some bio, stim and shift-click some buildings (or a-move at a mineral line). If necessary select the bio, click them into the dropship, then fly it away.
Cloak ghosts, run in and EMP the deathball. Run ghosts away. Stim and at-move in at the bioball with medivacs following, then start stutter-stepping backwards (or forwards if the ball tries to retreat). Shift-click Target-fire vikings on colossus. Back vikings out if main army is cut off by forcefields due to bad EMP.
Ya, you have to do multiple things, but none of them require any real finesse or precision and the timings are pretty lose. There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to place 6 perfect forcefields in less than two seconds or die right here." There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to individually target 5 ghosts for feedback while keeping my templar spread or my whole army will be EMP'd". No TvP equivalent to "I need to fly this warp prism just alongside the kiting bio, drop templar, storm, move prism forward, drop templar, storm, move prism forward..."
Protoss have fewer individual things that benefit from micro, but all of those things have to micro'd with great precision, finesse, and timing or they're completely ineffective or even counter-productive (e.g. bad FF protecting the bio from charging zealots; bad storm killing your own zealots).
Hahaha, I love when people do this. It's not just Protoss (I see Zergs and Terrans doing it too, but it often times seems to be Protoss), but I just think it's really funny when they post silly things like this where they pull out their thesaurus to sound smart while talking about their race and then they use their actual vocab when talking about other races.
First off, if you get your whole army and all your spellcasters EMPed by cloaked Ghosts, here are some tips:
Spread out your casters
Get a single Observer and place it a little bit ahead of your army
If you see a group of cloaked Ghosts moving towards your army, attack them with your Stalkers/Colossi/Zealot OR for you Protoss with super-gosu-awesome micro, take a single High Templar and feedback the Ghosts.
25/75 shouldn't be "too expensive" as a response to cloak, as Terrans are investing either 150/150 or 200/200 into cloak depending on Ghosts or Banshees respectively
If that still seems like you are being forced to produce more observers then you'd like, think of it like this: Terran gets cloak tech, if Protoss doesn't respond to cloak tech, Protoss loses. Alternatively: Protoss gets cloak tech, if Terran doesn't respond to cloak tech, Terran loses. That's just how StarCraft 2 works when it comes to cloak tech (whether it's Burrow, Ghosts, or Dark Templar), of course the only one that can consistently be cloaked AND attack is the Dark Templar...
As far as drop micro not being difficult, go watch sixjaxMajOr against EGAxslav on Xel'Naga Caverns I believe a couple MLGs ago. MajOr is constantly dropping in two places while poking at the front with his main army and Axslav's decision making and poor multitasking can't stand a chance against MajOr's ridiculously good decision making and great multitasking. At the end of the day, MajOr won, but he had to micro his ass off to get that win (it's actually really great play by him that's exciting to watch, especially since even the casters can't keep up with his fantastic dropship micro.
I don't want to make this sound Terran favored, as really late game TvP is a crazy Microfest that I think is pretty balanced, but in a big engagement, as a Terran you need to be able to EMP in the right places to negate your opponent's spellcasters while at the same time, stim, stutterstep, and control your entire army perfectly or else it will die to whatever you miss with your EMPs or else your somewhat fragile bioball dies to the Protoss army.
Protoss, at the same time, must also land feedbacks, storm, a-move the bulk of their army, and drop Forcefields, which, if your sentries are spread out you have the ability to drop a good amount of them. Granted, forcefields are pretty difficult to use, but I've played games where even without them I have died to a Protoss ball. If you really have trouble using Forcefields I'd be fine with Sentries being given to Terran in the next patch ^^
On August 31 2011 00:32 galivet wrote: Just because you have to do a greater volume of micro as terran doesn't mean that the micro is more difficult than what protoss need to do.
What does terran have to do against protoss?
Fly a dropship at the protoss main, drop off some bio, stim and shift-click some buildings (or a-move at a mineral line). If necessary select the bio, click them into the dropship, then fly it away.
Cloak ghosts, run in and EMP the deathball. Run ghosts away. Stim and at-move in at the bioball with medivacs following, then start stutter-stepping backwards (or forwards if the ball tries to retreat). Shift-click Target-fire vikings on colossus. Back vikings out if main army is cut off by forcefields due to bad EMP.
Ya, you have to do multiple things, but none of them require any real finesse or precision and the timings are pretty lose. There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to place 6 perfect forcefields in less than two seconds or die right here." There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to individually target 5 ghosts for feedback while keeping my templar spread or my whole army will be EMP'd". No TvP equivalent to "I need to fly this warp prism just alongside the kiting bio, drop templar, storm, move prism forward, drop templar, storm, move prism forward..."
Protoss have fewer individual things that benefit from micro, but all of those things have to micro'd with great precision, finesse, and timing or they're completely ineffective or even counter-productive (e.g. bad FF protecting the bio from charging zealots; bad storm killing your own zealots).
Hahaha, I love when people do this. It's not just Protoss (I see Zergs and Terrans doing it too, but it often times seems to be Protoss), but I just think it's really funny when they post silly things like this where they pull out their thesaurus to sound smart while talking about their race and then they use their actual vocab when talking about other races.
First off, if you get your whole army and all your spellcasters EMPed by cloaked Ghosts, here are some tips:
Spread out your casters
Get a single Observer and place it a little bit ahead of your army
If you see a group of cloaked Ghosts moving towards your army, attack them with your Stalkers/Colossi/Zealot OR for you Protoss with super-gosu-awesome micro, take a single High Templar and feedback the Ghosts.
25/75 shouldn't be "too expensive" as a response to cloak, as Terrans are investing either 150/150 or 200/200 into cloak depending on Ghosts or Banshees respectively
If that still seems like you are being forced to produce more observers then you'd like, think of it like this: Terran gets cloak tech, if Protoss doesn't respond to cloak tech, Protoss loses. Alternatively: Protoss gets cloak tech, if Terran doesn't respond to cloak tech, Terran loses. That's just how StarCraft 2 works when it comes to cloak tech (whether it's Burrow, Ghosts, or Dark Templar), of course the only one that can consistently be cloaked AND attack is the Dark Templar...
As far as drop micro not being difficult, go watch sixjaxMajOr against EGAxslav on Xel'Naga Caverns I believe a couple MLGs ago. MajOr is constantly dropping in two places while poking at the front with his main army and Axslav's decision making and poor multitasking can't stand a chance against MajOr's ridiculously good decision making and great multitasking. At the end of the day, MajOr won, but he had to micro his ass off to get that win (it's actually really great play by him that's exciting to watch, especially since even the casters can't keep up with his fantastic dropship micro.
I don't want to make this sound Terran favored, as really late game TvP is a crazy Microfest that I think is pretty balanced, but in a big engagement, as a Terran you need to be able to EMP in the right places to negate your opponent's spellcasters while at the same time, stim, stutterstep, and control your entire army perfectly or else it will die to whatever you miss with your EMPs or else your somewhat fragile bioball dies to the Protoss army.
Protoss, at the same time, must also land feedbacks, storm, a-move the bulk of their army, and drop Forcefields, which, if your sentries are spread out you have the ability to drop a good amount of them. Granted, forcefields are pretty difficult to use, but I've played games where even without them I have died to a Protoss ball. If you really have trouble using Forcefields I'd be fine with Sentries being given to Terran in the next patch ^^
well that not really micro, but multi tasking, the reason it is done, is because it is rewarding.
Good luck trying to multi task smaller groups of protoss units in an even state of the game as protoss.
Micro = use individual units to their fullest potential This is what is every single protoss unit is about, because they have the worst dps, needs to be microed perfectly to be cost effectiv.
i don't consider stutter step micro at all, it something every race is using has nothing to do with the individual units.
On August 31 2011 00:32 galivet wrote: Just because you have to do a greater volume of micro as terran doesn't mean that the micro is more difficult than what protoss need to do.
What does terran have to do against protoss?
Fly a dropship at the protoss main, drop off some bio, stim and shift-click some buildings (or a-move at a mineral line). If necessary select the bio, click them into the dropship, then fly it away.
Cloak ghosts, run in and EMP the deathball. Run ghosts away. Stim and at-move in at the bioball with medivacs following, then start stutter-stepping backwards (or forwards if the ball tries to retreat). Shift-click Target-fire vikings on colossus. Back vikings out if main army is cut off by forcefields due to bad EMP.
Ya, you have to do multiple things, but none of them require any real finesse or precision and the timings are pretty lose. There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to place 6 perfect forcefields in less than two seconds or die right here." There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to individually target 5 ghosts for feedback while keeping my templar spread or my whole army will be EMP'd". No TvP equivalent to "I need to fly this warp prism just alongside the kiting bio, drop templar, storm, move prism forward, drop templar, storm, move prism forward..."
Protoss have fewer individual things that benefit from micro, but all of those things have to micro'd with great precision, finesse, and timing or they're completely ineffective or even counter-productive (e.g. bad FF protecting the bio from charging zealots; bad storm killing your own zealots).
Hahaha, I love when people do this. It's not just Protoss (I see Zergs and Terrans doing it too, but it often times seems to be Protoss), but I just think it's really funny when they post silly things like this where they pull out their thesaurus to sound smart while talking about their race and then they use their actual vocab when talking about other races.
First off, if you get your whole army and all your spellcasters EMPed by cloaked Ghosts, here are some tips:
Spread out your casters
Get a single Observer and place it a little bit ahead of your army
If you see a group of cloaked Ghosts moving towards your army, attack them with your Stalkers/Colossi/Zealot OR for you Protoss with super-gosu-awesome micro, take a single High Templar and feedback the Ghosts.
25/75 shouldn't be "too expensive" as a response to cloak, as Terrans are investing either 150/150 or 200/200 into cloak depending on Ghosts or Banshees respectively
If that still seems like you are being forced to produce more observers then you'd like, think of it like this: Terran gets cloak tech, if Protoss doesn't respond to cloak tech, Protoss loses. Alternatively: Protoss gets cloak tech, if Terran doesn't respond to cloak tech, Terran loses. That's just how StarCraft 2 works when it comes to cloak tech (whether it's Burrow, Ghosts, or Dark Templar), of course the only one that can consistently be cloaked AND attack is the Dark Templar...
As far as drop micro not being difficult, go watch sixjaxMajOr against EGAxslav on Xel'Naga Caverns I believe a couple MLGs ago. MajOr is constantly dropping in two places while poking at the front with his main army and Axslav's decision making and poor multitasking can't stand a chance against MajOr's ridiculously good decision making and great multitasking. At the end of the day, MajOr won, but he had to micro his ass off to get that win (it's actually really great play by him that's exciting to watch, especially since even the casters can't keep up with his fantastic dropship micro.
I don't want to make this sound Terran favored, as really late game TvP is a crazy Microfest that I think is pretty balanced, but in a big engagement, as a Terran you need to be able to EMP in the right places to negate your opponent's spellcasters while at the same time, stim, stutterstep, and control your entire army perfectly or else it will die to whatever you miss with your EMPs or else your somewhat fragile bioball dies to the Protoss army.
Protoss, at the same time, must also land feedbacks, storm, a-move the bulk of their army, and drop Forcefields, which, if your sentries are spread out you have the ability to drop a good amount of them. Granted, forcefields are pretty difficult to use, but I've played games where even without them I have died to a Protoss ball. If you really have trouble using Forcefields I'd be fine with Sentries being given to Terran in the next patch ^^
well that not really micro, but multi tasking, the reason it is done, is because it is rewarding.
Good luck trying to multi task smaller groups of protoss units in an even state of the game as protoss.
Micro = use individual units to their fullest potential This is what is every single protoss unit is about, because they have the worst dps, needs to be microed perfectly to be cost effectiv.
i don't consider stutter step micro at all, it something every race is using has nothing to do with the individual units.
By your own logic, I don't consider using Blink or Storms as micro, so really Protoss just A-moves their units. You are an idiot.
Ultralisk: Build time decreased from 70 to 55. Implications and reasoning: Hooray! Ultralisks are more easily accesable now. The brood lord is so much better in terms of accesability and army compatibility at the current metagame that I actually see terrans start to add vikings blindly past the 16-17 minutes in the ZvT's I play - simply because they know it will be brood lords. Now by making ultralisks a bit more appealing, we might see terrans be more reluctant to do this. What still worries me, however, is that ghosts are fairly strong vs both brood lords and ultralisks alike.
Hurray zerg can get a completly useless unit even earlier YIPIEE
On August 31 2011 00:32 galivet wrote: Just because you have to do a greater volume of micro as terran doesn't mean that the micro is more difficult than what protoss need to do.
What does terran have to do against protoss?
Fly a dropship at the protoss main, drop off some bio, stim and shift-click some buildings (or a-move at a mineral line). If necessary select the bio, click them into the dropship, then fly it away.
Cloak ghosts, run in and EMP the deathball. Run ghosts away. Stim and at-move in at the bioball with medivacs following, then start stutter-stepping backwards (or forwards if the ball tries to retreat). Shift-click Target-fire vikings on colossus. Back vikings out if main army is cut off by forcefields due to bad EMP.
Ya, you have to do multiple things, but none of them require any real finesse or precision and the timings are pretty lose. There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to place 6 perfect forcefields in less than two seconds or die right here." There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to individually target 5 ghosts for feedback while keeping my templar spread or my whole army will be EMP'd". No TvP equivalent to "I need to fly this warp prism just alongside the kiting bio, drop templar, storm, move prism forward, drop templar, storm, move prism forward..."
Protoss have fewer individual things that benefit from micro, but all of those things have to micro'd with great precision, finesse, and timing or they're completely ineffective or even counter-productive (e.g. bad FF protecting the bio from charging zealots; bad storm killing your own zealots).
Hahaha, I love when people do this. It's not just Protoss (I see Zergs and Terrans doing it too, but it often times seems to be Protoss), but I just think it's really funny when they post silly things like this where they pull out their thesaurus to sound smart while talking about their race and then they use their actual vocab when talking about other races.
First off, if you get your whole army and all your spellcasters EMPed by cloaked Ghosts, here are some tips:
Spread out your casters
Get a single Observer and place it a little bit ahead of your army
If you see a group of cloaked Ghosts moving towards your army, attack them with your Stalkers/Colossi/Zealot OR for you Protoss with super-gosu-awesome micro, take a single High Templar and feedback the Ghosts.
25/75 shouldn't be "too expensive" as a response to cloak, as Terrans are investing either 150/150 or 200/200 into cloak depending on Ghosts or Banshees respectively
If that still seems like you are being forced to produce more observers then you'd like, think of it like this: Terran gets cloak tech, if Protoss doesn't respond to cloak tech, Protoss loses. Alternatively: Protoss gets cloak tech, if Terran doesn't respond to cloak tech, Terran loses. That's just how StarCraft 2 works when it comes to cloak tech (whether it's Burrow, Ghosts, or Dark Templar), of course the only one that can consistently be cloaked AND attack is the Dark Templar...
As far as drop micro not being difficult, go watch sixjaxMajOr against EGAxslav on Xel'Naga Caverns I believe a couple MLGs ago. MajOr is constantly dropping in two places while poking at the front with his main army and Axslav's decision making and poor multitasking can't stand a chance against MajOr's ridiculously good decision making and great multitasking. At the end of the day, MajOr won, but he had to micro his ass off to get that win (it's actually really great play by him that's exciting to watch, especially since even the casters can't keep up with his fantastic dropship micro.
I don't want to make this sound Terran favored, as really late game TvP is a crazy Microfest that I think is pretty balanced, but in a big engagement, as a Terran you need to be able to EMP in the right places to negate your opponent's spellcasters while at the same time, stim, stutterstep, and control your entire army perfectly or else it will die to whatever you miss with your EMPs or else your somewhat fragile bioball dies to the Protoss army.
Protoss, at the same time, must also land feedbacks, storm, a-move the bulk of their army, and drop Forcefields, which, if your sentries are spread out you have the ability to drop a good amount of them. Granted, forcefields are pretty difficult to use, but I've played games where even without them I have died to a Protoss ball. If you really have trouble using Forcefields I'd be fine with Sentries being given to Terran in the next patch ^^
well that not really micro, but multi tasking, the reason it is done, is because it is rewarding.
Good luck trying to multi task smaller groups of protoss units in an even state of the game as protoss.
Micro = use individual units to their fullest potential This is what is every single protoss unit is about, because they have the worst dps, needs to be microed perfectly to be cost effectiv.
i don't consider stutter step micro at all, it something every race is using has nothing to do with the individual units.
By your own logic, I don't consider using Blink or Storms as micro, so really Protoss just A-moves their units. You are an idiot.
User was warned for this post
Its a shame he got warned for this. Its perfectly correct. The guy is a moron. He has some decent points but stutter step not being micro is not one of them, how about splitting is that micro?
I hope i dont get warned for this, but i really dont know
Also, when have you seen a zerg stutter step? You can do it, i guess with roaches, but really? Its not something you see every single game like with T
A bug fix and a buff are the same thing. Its a change. Doesnt matter what the intention is. This still make NP much stronger. Not sure what the point of your post is.
On August 25 2011 18:56 MartynX wrote: The sight up the ramp is to stop warping/blinking over force fields that are blocking the ramp.
Now that is excellent. I didnt even think of this implication
That was probably why it was implemented, if you looked in the patch notes thread everyone was talking about it as a big change to pvp
hsm change will change tvt, I guarantee it. Now that it's faster than vikings, every time you shoot a hsm, it WILL pay for itself. How are you going to figure out which viking is being targeted by hsm when you have 30 vikings late game? you can eyeball it and split off maybe 4~5 vikings but those will definitely take significant damage. And what happens, if say 4 hsm gets thrown at you? are you going to find each viking in a pack of 30 and split them? No, it's not possible. You just take it
Protoss, at the same time, must also land feedbacks, storm, a-move the bulk of their army, and drop Forcefields, which, if your sentries are spread out you have the ability to drop a good amount of them. Granted, forcefields are pretty difficult to use, but I've played games where even without them I have died to a Protoss ball.
There's more then just that, I like the "a-move the bulk of their army"...
Individual colossus have to be microed back when they are at low health. Blink stalkers have to focus vikings down if possible and if there are no vikings, be all in range to take down the bio army without getting murdered by marauders. Phoenixes have to be microed to get in range to quickly take down vikings, medivacs, and ghosts without getting splattered by marine fires.
It is actually rather hard to take down multiple ghosts with feedbacks (if Terran uses Scans + EMPs).
Splitting/stutter stepping/focus-firing and a shitload of multitasking = Terran
Really surprised that there's been so little discussion of the affect of the patch on ZvZ. Initial thoughts are: Mutas are a bit more viable. It'll take 5 fungals to kill a muta ball (4 perfect fungals won't do it since the mutas will regenerate). If people get better at splitting mutas that might be enough to bring them back. Banes take 2 Fungals to kill. Infestors take 3 Fungals to kill. That doesn't seem important, but it'll be a greater drain on infestor energy which will reduce the total effect of fungal on everything.
Ultralisks, which seem like they should be a great counter to infestors, build quicker which might just make them viable.
ATM Zerg matches aren't progressing beyond mass roach + infestor. I really hope the changes are enough to get it evolving again.
On August 25 2011 20:47 Grubbegrabbn wrote: Good writeup!
The BF Hellion damage change vs light (8+6+10=24 changed to 8+6+5=19) implies: vs Marine (45hp): Need 3 hits instead of 2 vs Marine with shield (55hp): 3 hits (no change)
With this change, a marine with combat shield+stim can stim once and still need 3 Hellion hits before dying but right now you can only take 2 hits.
Hm I wonder what this means for TvT that seem to have shifted to Hellions instead of marines...?
It just increases the critical mass of hellions and make marines better at smaller-medium sizes.
I'm still bummed about the BFH nerf. How many times are we going to get 3 hits on a mineral line? I want to see what happens to drone/probe/scv kills after this patch. probably gonna go wwaaayyyy down.
I just wanted to quick point out a small mistake in the OP.
[B]On August 25 2011 18:54 Thraundil wrote: General
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. Implications and reasoning: I am not entirely sure why this change is being made. It will make it even harder to gain any scouting information in the early game by poking up the ramp with a cheap unit, and the early stages of the game are already by far the most fragile where scouting info is oh so important. In addition, agressive pushes up the ramp of a defender will be severly weakened by this, as e.g. a stalker will now be able to shoot a hydralisk standing on the low ground without the hydralisk being able to shoot back via a ramp spotter; only an air unit can provide the vision now.
The bold part is not totally correct. You gain high ground vision at the same point that you did before. The only difference is that you cannot see units that are ON the ramp anymore from the low ground.
On August 25 2011 20:47 Grubbegrabbn wrote: Good writeup!
The BF Hellion damage change vs light (8+6+10=24 changed to 8+6+5=19) implies: vs Marine (45hp): Need 3 hits instead of 2 vs Marine with shield (55hp): 3 hits (no change)
With this change, a marine with combat shield+stim can stim once and still need 3 Hellion hits before dying but right now you can only take 2 hits.
Hm I wonder what this means for TvT that seem to have shifted to Hellions instead of marines...?
It just increases the critical mass of hellions and make marines better at smaller-medium sizes.
agreed, it just means that the bio opening play is still viable as long as they switch tech fast enough.
On August 31 2011 00:32 galivet wrote: Just because you have to do a greater volume of micro as terran doesn't mean that the micro is more difficult than what protoss need to do.
What does terran have to do against protoss?
Fly a dropship at the protoss main, drop off some bio, stim and shift-click some buildings (or a-move at a mineral line). If necessary select the bio, click them into the dropship, then fly it away.
Cloak ghosts, run in and EMP the deathball. Run ghosts away. Stim and at-move in at the bioball with medivacs following, then start stutter-stepping backwards (or forwards if the ball tries to retreat). Shift-click Target-fire vikings on colossus. Back vikings out if main army is cut off by forcefields due to bad EMP.
Ya, you have to do multiple things, but none of them require any real finesse or precision and the timings are pretty lose. There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to place 6 perfect forcefields in less than two seconds or die right here." There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to individually target 5 ghosts for feedback while keeping my templar spread or my whole army will be EMP'd". No TvP equivalent to "I need to fly this warp prism just alongside the kiting bio, drop templar, storm, move prism forward, drop templar, storm, move prism forward..."
Protoss have fewer individual things that benefit from micro, but all of those things have to micro'd with great precision, finesse, and timing or they're completely ineffective or even counter-productive (e.g. bad FF protecting the bio from charging zealots; bad storm killing your own zealots).
Hahaha, I love when people do this. It's not just Protoss (I see Zergs and Terrans doing it too, but it often times seems to be Protoss), but I just think it's really funny when they post silly things like this where they pull out their thesaurus to sound smart while talking about their race and then they use their actual vocab when talking about other races.
First off, if you get your whole army and all your spellcasters EMPed by cloaked Ghosts, here are some tips:
Spread out your casters
Get a single Observer and place it a little bit ahead of your army
If you see a group of cloaked Ghosts moving towards your army, attack them with your Stalkers/Colossi/Zealot OR for you Protoss with super-gosu-awesome micro, take a single High Templar and feedback the Ghosts.
25/75 shouldn't be "too expensive" as a response to cloak, as Terrans are investing either 150/150 or 200/200 into cloak depending on Ghosts or Banshees respectively
If that still seems like you are being forced to produce more observers then you'd like, think of it like this: Terran gets cloak tech, if Protoss doesn't respond to cloak tech, Protoss loses. Alternatively: Protoss gets cloak tech, if Terran doesn't respond to cloak tech, Terran loses. That's just how StarCraft 2 works when it comes to cloak tech (whether it's Burrow, Ghosts, or Dark Templar), of course the only one that can consistently be cloaked AND attack is the Dark Templar...
As far as drop micro not being difficult, go watch sixjaxMajOr against EGAxslav on Xel'Naga Caverns I believe a couple MLGs ago. MajOr is constantly dropping in two places while poking at the front with his main army and Axslav's decision making and poor multitasking can't stand a chance against MajOr's ridiculously good decision making and great multitasking. At the end of the day, MajOr won, but he had to micro his ass off to get that win (it's actually really great play by him that's exciting to watch, especially since even the casters can't keep up with his fantastic dropship micro.
I don't want to make this sound Terran favored, as really late game TvP is a crazy Microfest that I think is pretty balanced, but in a big engagement, as a Terran you need to be able to EMP in the right places to negate your opponent's spellcasters while at the same time, stim, stutterstep, and control your entire army perfectly or else it will die to whatever you miss with your EMPs or else your somewhat fragile bioball dies to the Protoss army.
Protoss, at the same time, must also land feedbacks, storm, a-move the bulk of their army, and drop Forcefields, which, if your sentries are spread out you have the ability to drop a good amount of them. Granted, forcefields are pretty difficult to use, but I've played games where even without them I have died to a Protoss ball. If you really have trouble using Forcefields I'd be fine with Sentries being given to Terran in the next patch ^^
well that not really micro, but multi tasking, the reason it is done, is because it is rewarding.
Good luck trying to multi task smaller groups of protoss units in an even state of the game as protoss.
Micro = use individual units to their fullest potential This is what is every single protoss unit is about, because they have the worst dps, needs to be microed perfectly to be cost effectiv.
i don't consider stutter step micro at all, it something every race is using has nothing to do with the individual units.
By your own logic, I don't consider using Blink or Storms as micro, so really Protoss just A-moves their units. You are an idiot.
User was warned for this post
Its a shame he got warned for this. Its perfectly correct. The guy is a moron. He has some decent points but stutter step not being micro is not one of them, how about splitting is that micro?
I hope i dont get warned for this, but i really dont know
Also, when have you seen a zerg stutter step? You can do it, i guess with roaches, but really? Its not something you see every single game like with T
I deserve the warning, I was in a rush and thought what the guy wrote was really stupid, so I flamed him. I don't take back the meaning of what I said, but I could have phrased it in a more civil way.
Protoss, at the same time, must also land feedbacks, storm, a-move the bulk of their army, and drop Forcefields, which, if your sentries are spread out you have the ability to drop a good amount of them. Granted, forcefields are pretty difficult to use, but I've played games where even without them I have died to a Protoss ball.
There's more then just that, I like the "a-move the bulk of their army"...
Individual colossus have to be microed back when they are at low health. Blink stalkers have to focus vikings down if possible and if there are no vikings, be all in range to take down the bio army without getting murdered by marauders. Phoenixes have to be microed to get in range to quickly take down vikings, medivacs, and ghosts without getting splattered by marine fires.
It is actually rather hard to take down multiple ghosts with feedbacks (if Terran uses Scans + EMPs).
Splitting/stutter stepping/focus-firing and a shitload of multitasking = Terran
Most Protoss armies nowadays are primarily Zealot/Archon/Colossi (with other units like High Templar or Sentries for support) which doesn't require much micro at all. Yes you have to move your colossi back as they start to get low HP and engage well, but it isn't horribly micro intensive. Most of the micro comes in with the High Templar and Sentries, and while it is hard to Feedback Ghosts when the Terran plays well, it is also hard to EMP/Snipe High Templar when the Protoss spread and plays well.
Personally I find late game TvP to be pretty balanced, that's all I'm trying to say, but saying that Terran doesn't require any micro is just downright silly.
EDIT: Also, Multitasking is micro, it's ridiculous to say that it's not and if you honestly try to say that sixjaxMajOr's ridiculous multitasking doesn't show he has great micro, then there's no reason to even bother debating anything with you.
On August 31 2011 11:14 BBWsuperstar wrote: I'm still bummed about the BFH nerf. How many times are we going to get 3 hits on a mineral line? I want to see what happens to drone/probe/scv kills after this patch. probably gonna go wwaaayyyy down.
...that's the point. They're waaaaaaaaaay too cost effective.
On August 31 2011 00:32 galivet wrote: Just because you have to do a greater volume of micro as terran doesn't mean that the micro is more difficult than what protoss need to do.
What does terran have to do against protoss?
Fly a dropship at the protoss main, drop off some bio, stim and shift-click some buildings (or a-move at a mineral line). If necessary select the bio, click them into the dropship, then fly it away.
Cloak ghosts, run in and EMP the deathball. Run ghosts away. Stim and at-move in at the bioball with medivacs following, then start stutter-stepping backwards (or forwards if the ball tries to retreat). Shift-click Target-fire vikings on colossus. Back vikings out if main army is cut off by forcefields due to bad EMP.
Ya, you have to do multiple things, but none of them require any real finesse or precision and the timings are pretty lose. There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to place 6 perfect forcefields in less than two seconds or die right here." There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to individually target 5 ghosts for feedback while keeping my templar spread or my whole army will be EMP'd". No TvP equivalent to "I need to fly this warp prism just alongside the kiting bio, drop templar, storm, move prism forward, drop templar, storm, move prism forward..."
Protoss have fewer individual things that benefit from micro, but all of those things have to micro'd with great precision, finesse, and timing or they're completely ineffective or even counter-productive (e.g. bad FF protecting the bio from charging zealots; bad storm killing your own zealots).
Hahaha, I love when people do this. It's not just Protoss (I see Zergs and Terrans doing it too, but it often times seems to be Protoss), but I just think it's really funny when they post silly things like this where they pull out their thesaurus to sound smart while talking about their race and then they use their actual vocab when talking about other races.
First off, if you get your whole army and all your spellcasters EMPed by cloaked Ghosts, here are some tips:
Spread out your casters
Get a single Observer and place it a little bit ahead of your army
If you see a group of cloaked Ghosts moving towards your army, attack them with your Stalkers/Colossi/Zealot OR for you Protoss with super-gosu-awesome micro, take a single High Templar and feedback the Ghosts.
25/75 shouldn't be "too expensive" as a response to cloak, as Terrans are investing either 150/150 or 200/200 into cloak depending on Ghosts or Banshees respectively
If that still seems like you are being forced to produce more observers then you'd like, think of it like this: Terran gets cloak tech, if Protoss doesn't respond to cloak tech, Protoss loses. Alternatively: Protoss gets cloak tech, if Terran doesn't respond to cloak tech, Terran loses. That's just how StarCraft 2 works when it comes to cloak tech (whether it's Burrow, Ghosts, or Dark Templar), of course the only one that can consistently be cloaked AND attack is the Dark Templar...
As far as drop micro not being difficult, go watch sixjaxMajOr against EGAxslav on Xel'Naga Caverns I believe a couple MLGs ago. MajOr is constantly dropping in two places while poking at the front with his main army and Axslav's decision making and poor multitasking can't stand a chance against MajOr's ridiculously good decision making and great multitasking. At the end of the day, MajOr won, but he had to micro his ass off to get that win (it's actually really great play by him that's exciting to watch, especially since even the casters can't keep up with his fantastic dropship micro.
I don't want to make this sound Terran favored, as really late game TvP is a crazy Microfest that I think is pretty balanced, but in a big engagement, as a Terran you need to be able to EMP in the right places to negate your opponent's spellcasters while at the same time, stim, stutterstep, and control your entire army perfectly or else it will die to whatever you miss with your EMPs or else your somewhat fragile bioball dies to the Protoss army.
Protoss, at the same time, must also land feedbacks, storm, a-move the bulk of their army, and drop Forcefields, which, if your sentries are spread out you have the ability to drop a good amount of them. Granted, forcefields are pretty difficult to use, but I've played games where even without them I have died to a Protoss ball. If you really have trouble using Forcefields I'd be fine with Sentries being given to Terran in the next patch ^^
well that not really micro, but multi tasking, the reason it is done, is because it is rewarding.
Good luck trying to multi task smaller groups of protoss units in an even state of the game as protoss.
Micro = use individual units to their fullest potential This is what is every single protoss unit is about, because they have the worst dps, needs to be microed perfectly to be cost effectiv.
i don't consider stutter step micro at all, it something every race is using has nothing to do with the individual units.
By your own logic, I don't consider using Blink or Storms as micro, so really Protoss just A-moves their units. You are an idiot.
User was warned for this post
TL WIKI: Micro is the ability to control your units individually, in order to make up for pathing or otherwise imperfect AI. For example, controlling only two Marines to kill a Lurker, or being able to kill multiple Scourges with Mutalisks is considered "Micro". The general theory of micro is to keep as many units alive as possible. For example it is better to have four half-dead Dragoons after a battle, rather than to have two Dragoons at full health and two dead ones.
no a-moving a ball of units back and forth is hardly micro (may be in the most basic understanding, if you compare it to not moving at all during the fight, everyone can do that)
using individual units to maximum effciency is micro, that why it is considered a skill. like hero not losing a single unit in mlg because of individual micro.
Basic example: Zealot / Stalker - totally different movement speed, makes zealots often stuck you have to individual move your army so your zealot will always reach the target properly, or else they will do no damage at all are you having the same issues Marine Marauder? no because they are perfectly in sync. both in range and movement speed Same issue with Immortal / Stalker , Sentry / Zealot
another example: - using individual small groups of units (i.e. stimming) to snipe important units, now that is micro. - using marines splitting them individually, against banelings / zerglings , that is micro that takes skill cause it alot harder then to just stutter step
On August 31 2011 10:12 Squigly wrote: Its a shame he got warned for this. Its perfectly correct. The guy is a moron. He has some decent points but stutter step not being micro is not one of them, how about splitting is that micro?
I hope i dont get warned for this, but i really dont know
Also, when have you seen a zerg stutter step? You can do it, i guess with roaches, but really? Its not something you see every single game like with T
Zerg players actually stutter-step a fair bit when doing roach play. A couple of pros have even done stutter-step micro with zerglings to get extra hits or a better surround on retreating marines. Stutter-step is micro, but it's about the simplest and most common kind, which is why people aren't too impressed when Terran players bring it up as an example of complex play. Really impressive marine micro tends to be about good splitting, as demonstrated by pros such as Polt and MarineKing.
A lot of changes in this patch. I still think Zerg needs some spell to deal with energy units (like EMP/Feedback). Maybe some oversear spell to drain energy?
On August 31 2011 10:12 Jumbled wrote: A couple of pros have even done stutter-step micro with zerglings to get extra hits or a better surround on retreating marines.
You can stutter-step a zealot to kill 4 (slow)lings.
Will vision up ramp nerf the 7 roach rush a bit too? There's usally a zealot or supply depots just on top of the ramp so if you walk all 7 of them up the ramp, a few in the back won'tl be able to attack anymore, or will they keep vision because the roaches in the front have vision?
Why would you complain about zerg being unable to "scout" without ramp vision? Its to give the homefield advantage to defenders in early rushes... also zerg just got a buff to overseers which imho are the second best way to scout.
On August 31 2011 22:32 Zandar wrote: Will vision up ramp nerf the 7 roach rush a bit too? There's usally a zealot or supply depots just on top of the ramp so if you walk all 7 of them up the ramp, a few in the back won'tl be able to attack anymore, or will they keep vision because the roaches in the front have vision?
The ones who manage to get past halfway up the ramp will provide vision for those left behind.
On August 30 2011 17:15 Xequecal wrote: Actually, I have tried that. They burrow and outheal storm, it's pretty funny. Templar are simply not any good at all against Zerg. They were good when Zerg used mutalisks and zerglings but not now. They do nothing to roaches or brood lords, and they don't function well as an infestor counter. They're horrifically easy to snipe and you have to spend 100 APM keeping them split up or the Zerg can just erase them all with a few fungals.
Please, spare us the ridiculous hyperbole. Roaches do not outheal storm, even after upgraded regen. While roaches are burrowed they move so slow that a pre-schooler can land every storm on them, and you WILL be able to kill them if you have the energ and they dont pop out. All good zergs still use lings, lots of lings.
Maxing on roaches against toss isn't good, and lings are the natural complement to mass infestors. Do you know what destiny does when toss gets High temps? Switches to roaches, because a single storm can talk out half his army. He mentions time and time again that HT are the correct response to mass infestor, despite you thinking they are worthless.
HT are only easy to snipe if you position them poorly, and storms on the infestor ball will be just as devastating as fungals on the HTs (albeit, chain fungal is easier than hitting several storms).
It's pretty easy to mass parasite Protoss when infestors move faster than templar and all their spells have the same range as feedback, just stop them out of range and tell them to cast their spells, it's impossible for the Protoss to feedback them before they cast.
Again, leaving your templar out in front of your army where infestors can reach them is pretty silly. Having any units at all between the infestor and the HT will discourage this kind of play.
[As for corruptors - so what? Who uses corruptors? Lots of colossus is easy to counter, just make 15 infestors and NP/fungal spam the ball to death. You'll lose a few to colossus shots but you're zerg, you always have way more resources than the opponent. Protoss is all about killing the Zerg before they get a critical mass of infestors because you cannot do anything about this unit if they have a bunch of them. Late game Protoss is completely hopeless vs Zerg as Zerg will make brood lords and fungal completely demolishes the two counter units, namely blink stalkers and void rays.
Yet again, If your colossi are getting mass neuraled, you are having positioning problems. Neural range = colossi attack range, so there is no reason to have your colossi out in front of your army. If you make the infestors get within stalker attack range to land NP on colossi, then this kind of thing might not happen.
All of this said... Infestors are likely the best unit in the game and deserve this nerf. But don't act like HTs are garbage.
On August 31 2011 18:13 TmzZ666 wrote: A lot of changes in this patch. I still think Zerg needs some spell to deal with energy units (like EMP/Feedback). Maybe some oversear spell to drain energy?
What do You guys think about this?
You have to be VERY careful when balancing a spellcaster that has 0 food cost.
Already I can envision maxed army situations where the Zerg morphs 30 Overseers and just goops the hell out of the enemy base, and then attacks.
imo the most significant changes with 1.4 will be as follows:
- immortals much better, mainly because they can automatically engage faster, freeing up your APM that you would have to spend faffing around with your stalker concave.
- blue flame finally got a deserved nerf (if you don't think it deserved a nerf then you're a looney toon)
the other changes are nice balance tweaks but very minor changes.
So wait, protoss is complaining that their unit that has the most armor and strongest shield (due to passive ability) shouldn't be in the front lines? Isn't that the POINT of the immortal?
On August 31 2011 00:32 galivet wrote: Just because you have to do a greater volume of micro as terran doesn't mean that the micro is more difficult than what protoss need to do.
What does terran have to do against protoss?
Fly a dropship at the protoss main, drop off some bio, stim and shift-click some buildings (or a-move at a mineral line). If necessary select the bio, click them into the dropship, then fly it away.
Cloak ghosts, run in and EMP the deathball. Run ghosts away. Stim and at-move in at the bioball with medivacs following, then start stutter-stepping backwards (or forwards if the ball tries to retreat). Shift-click Target-fire vikings on colossus. Back vikings out if main army is cut off by forcefields due to bad EMP.
Ya, you have to do multiple things, but none of them require any real finesse or precision and the timings are pretty lose. There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to place 6 perfect forcefields in less than two seconds or die right here." There's no TvP equivalent to "I need to individually target 5 ghosts for feedback while keeping my templar spread or my whole army will be EMP'd". No TvP equivalent to "I need to fly this warp prism just alongside the kiting bio, drop templar, storm, move prism forward, drop templar, storm, move prism forward..."
Protoss have fewer individual things that benefit from micro, but all of those things have to micro'd with great precision, finesse, and timing or they're completely ineffective or even counter-productive (e.g. bad FF protecting the bio from charging zealots; bad storm killing your own zealots).
Hahaha, I love when people do this. It's not just Protoss (I see Zergs and Terrans doing it too, but it often times seems to be Protoss), but I just think it's really funny when they post silly things like this where they pull out their thesaurus to sound smart while talking about their race and then they use their actual vocab when talking about other races.
First off, if you get your whole army and all your spellcasters EMPed by cloaked Ghosts, here are some tips:
Spread out your casters
Get a single Observer and place it a little bit ahead of your army
If you see a group of cloaked Ghosts moving towards your army, attack them with your Stalkers/Colossi/Zealot OR for you Protoss with super-gosu-awesome micro, take a single High Templar and feedback the Ghosts.
25/75 shouldn't be "too expensive" as a response to cloak, as Terrans are investing either 150/150 or 200/200 into cloak depending on Ghosts or Banshees respectively
If that still seems like you are being forced to produce more observers then you'd like, think of it like this: Terran gets cloak tech, if Protoss doesn't respond to cloak tech, Protoss loses. Alternatively: Protoss gets cloak tech, if Terran doesn't respond to cloak tech, Terran loses. That's just how StarCraft 2 works when it comes to cloak tech (whether it's Burrow, Ghosts, or Dark Templar), of course the only one that can consistently be cloaked AND attack is the Dark Templar...
As far as drop micro not being difficult, go watch sixjaxMajOr against EGAxslav on Xel'Naga Caverns I believe a couple MLGs ago. MajOr is constantly dropping in two places while poking at the front with his main army and Axslav's decision making and poor multitasking can't stand a chance against MajOr's ridiculously good decision making and great multitasking. At the end of the day, MajOr won, but he had to micro his ass off to get that win (it's actually really great play by him that's exciting to watch, especially since even the casters can't keep up with his fantastic dropship micro.
I don't want to make this sound Terran favored, as really late game TvP is a crazy Microfest that I think is pretty balanced, but in a big engagement, as a Terran you need to be able to EMP in the right places to negate your opponent's spellcasters while at the same time, stim, stutterstep, and control your entire army perfectly or else it will die to whatever you miss with your EMPs or else your somewhat fragile bioball dies to the Protoss army.
Protoss, at the same time, must also land feedbacks, storm, a-move the bulk of their army, and drop Forcefields, which, if your sentries are spread out you have the ability to drop a good amount of them. Granted, forcefields are pretty difficult to use, but I've played games where even without them I have died to a Protoss ball. If you really have trouble using Forcefields I'd be fine with Sentries being given to Terran in the next patch ^^
well that not really micro, but multi tasking, the reason it is done, is because it is rewarding.
Good luck trying to multi task smaller groups of protoss units in an even state of the game as protoss.
Micro = use individual units to their fullest potential This is what is every single protoss unit is about, because they have the worst dps, needs to be microed perfectly to be cost effectiv.
i don't consider stutter step micro at all, it something every race is using has nothing to do with the individual units.
By your own logic, I don't consider using Blink or Storms as micro, so really Protoss just A-moves their units. You are an idiot.
TL WIKI: Micro is the ability to control your units individually, in order to make up for pathing or otherwise imperfect AI. For example, controlling only two Marines to kill a Lurker, or being able to kill multiple Scourges with Mutalisks is considered "Micro". The general theory of micro is to keep as many units alive as possible. For example it is better to have four half-dead Dragoons after a battle, rather than to have two Dragoons at full health and two dead ones.
no a-moving a ball of units back and forth is hardly micro (may be in the most basic understanding, if you compare it to not moving at all during the fight, everyone can do that)
using individual units to maximum effciency is micro, that why it is considered a skill. like hero not losing a single unit in mlg because of individual micro.
Basic example: Zealot / Stalker - totally different movement speed, makes zealots often stuck you have to individual move your army so your zealot will always reach the target properly, or else they will do no damage at all are you having the same issues Marine Marauder? no because they are perfectly in sync. both in range and movement speed Same issue with Immortal / Stalker , Sentry / Zealot
another example: - using individual small groups of units (i.e. stimming) to snipe important units, now that is micro. - using marines splitting them individually, against banelings / zerglings , that is micro that takes skill cause it alot harder then to just stutter step
What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever. Not having your Zealots stuck behind your Stalkers isn't micro at all, that's just common sense and good army positioning. However, from that cute little excerpt you probably have memorized, that sounds like drop ship control/multitasking IS micro, whereas your silly example of Zealots and Stalkers is just common sense and if you don't do it you have poor army control. Plus, of those examples you mentioned, controlling a small group of Marauders to try to snipe Colossi is something that most high level Terrans do in big engagements.
Also, since when have Marines and Marauders had the same range? I mean personally when I'm fighting Colossus balls I usually put my Marauders in the front despite the greater range just because they can take a few more Colossi shots instead of having my Marines in the front where they all melt, but that's actually a decision I choose to make (does that count as micro??)
On September 01 2011 00:19 Schamus wrote: So wait, protoss is complaining that their unit that has the most armor and strongest shield (due to passive ability) shouldn't be in the front lines? Isn't that the POINT of the immortal?
You rather want them alive to deal their sick bonus damage than to soak up some damage with hardened shields. They only have 1 base armour by the way.
On September 01 2011 00:19 Schamus wrote: So wait, protoss is complaining that their unit that has the most armor and strongest shield (due to passive ability) shouldn't be in the front lines? Isn't that the POINT of the immortal?
You rather want them alive to deal their sick bonus damage than to soak up some damage with hardened shields. They only have 1 base armour by the way.
usually you want to put 1 immortal in front if you are attacking into your opponent (think a sieged terran) that way all the tanks first shots are wasted on the immortal shield) other than that i think it is wise to keep the immortals alive because they are a good clean up unit at the end of the battle, especially if they most of there shield left
On September 01 2011 00:19 Schamus wrote: So wait, protoss is complaining that their unit that has the most armor and strongest shield (due to passive ability) shouldn't be in the front lines? Isn't that the POINT of the immortal?
Also, they're slower and more cumbersome than Stalkers so the Stalkers always engage first and then the Immortals get stuck behind and can't attack. I would prefer to have the Immortals be used in the battle at all than not at all.
On September 01 2011 00:19 Schamus wrote: So wait, protoss is complaining that their unit that has the most armor and strongest shield (due to passive ability) shouldn't be in the front lines? Isn't that the POINT of the immortal?
yes, it depends on the enemy composition, if you enemy goes mass roach, you can't just let your immortals to the front, beeing fastly focus fired. you actually sacrifice other units (like stalkers) to prolong the Immortals Protoss is all about keeping high tech units alive, to deal damage to become cost effective.
of course if you engage tanks , it is a different story, but just because Immortals are tanks doesn't mean they are always best at the front, where everything can hit them.
On September 01 2011 00:19 Schamus wrote: So wait, protoss is complaining that their unit that has the most armor and strongest shield (due to passive ability) shouldn't be in the front lines? Isn't that the POINT of the immortal?
yes, it depends on the enemy composition, if you enemy goes mass roach, you can't just let your immortals to the front, beeing fastly focus fired. you actually sacrifice other units (like stalkers) to prolong the Immortals Protoss is all about keeping high tech units alive, to deal damage to become cost effective.
of course if you engage tanks , it is a different story, but just because Immortals are tanks doesn't mean they are always best at the front, where everything can hit them.
They have 1 armor? so i mean i guess that does mean they have the "most" because no P unit has a base armor of 2... but zealots/stalkers/sentries/collosi all have 1 armor as well.
Furthermore i think the consensus (at least from Dustin Browder's pov) is that the immortals burst dmg vs armored units is its most appealing feature, so enabling it to engage faster and be less of a big fat target that cant retreat easily when damaged (due to the immo previously having to be placed in front of the stalker concave )
So to address your question, while the original designed purpose of the immortal may have centered around the hardened shield, in practice the high burst dmg vs armored targets is the POINT (or most appealing feature) of the immortal.
On August 31 2011 23:20 Morphling_ wrote: Please, spare us the ridiculous hyperbole. Roaches do not outheal storm, even after upgraded regen. While roaches are burrowed they move so slow that a pre-schooler can land every storm on them, and you WILL be able to kill them if you have the energ and they dont pop out. All good zergs still use lings, lots of lings.
Maxing on roaches against toss isn't good, and lings are the natural complement to mass infestors. Do you know what destiny does when toss gets High temps? Switches to roaches, because a single storm can talk out half his army. He mentions time and time again that HT are the correct response to mass infestor, despite you thinking they are worthless.
HT are only easy to snipe if you position them poorly, and storms on the infestor ball will be just as devastating as fungals on the HTs (albeit, chain fungal is easier than hitting several storms).
I think you should think this post through a bit more. You say that a "pre-schooler" can kill roaches with storm, then say a top player switches TO roaches when the Protoss gets HTs because they don't die to storm.
It takes like five storms to kill a burrowed roach, that assumes there's no stacking of storm, no delay between storms, and that the roach eats 100% of the storm duration. Storm does not work against roaches at all. HTs are dubious against infestors, and do not do anything against brood lords. The only common zerg strat that storm is good against right now is mass banelings in overlords, because with relatively slow overlords they can't attack and force you to waste energy on storms, then quickly retreat to heal, burrowing under FFs if necessary.
Again, leaving your templar out in front of your army where infestors can reach them is pretty silly. Having any units at all between the infestor and the HT will discourage this kind of play.
Then they can just spam fungal at the front and retreat, never getting in feedback range. Will they execute this perfectly? Probably not, and will lose a few infestors, but it's zerg. They have more resources than you, you have to kill a lot more of their stuff than they have to kill of yours.
Yet again, If your colossi are getting mass neuraled, you are having positioning problems. Neural range = colossi attack range, so there is no reason to have your colossi out in front of your army. If you make the infestors get within stalker attack range to land NP on colossi, then this kind of thing might not happen.
All of this said... Infestors are likely the best unit in the game and deserve this nerf. But don't act like HTs are garbage.
So HTs are the best counter to infestors, but now colossi can also beat them? Which one is it? Stalkers get summarily annihilated if you blink or move them forward to shoot down infestors. You RELY on the low range of roaches so you can FF their army and half of it won't be able to shoot back at you. If you move your stalkers up to shoot NPing Infestors in the back row they will get slaughtered in seconds, that's if they even can move due to mass fungal anyways.
On August 25 2011 20:04 Kornholi0 wrote: Well Personally I am glad hellions got nerfed THANKS KOREANS! I think instead of making ultralisk take less time, they should run faster (about the same speed as lings) that way you can be like BW and actually have effective strong units that are fast instead of relying on the meatshield. Problem with a meatshield is that you need other units to DPS for you... If you only have lings they get in the way of ultralisk -.- Oh well maybe HoTS we get hydralisk that are much faster or at least stronger (bulkier in health would be nice).
On August 25 2011 20:04 Kornholi0 wrote: Well Personally I am glad hellions got nerfed THANKS KOREANS! I think instead of making ultralisk take less time, they should run faster (about the same speed as lings) that way you can be like BW and actually have effective strong units that are fast instead of relying on the meatshield. Problem with a meatshield is that you need other units to DPS for you... If you only have lings they get in the way of ultralisk -.- Oh well maybe HoTS we get hydralisk that are much faster or at least stronger (bulkier in health would be nice).
The Hydra's role is a slow DPS/Support unit, not a tanky unit. They need to be used with other units like Roaches or Ultralisks to tank damage from other units while they shred everything. If they became faster and bulkier, then there would be no reason to do anything other than mass Hydralisks, and that wouldn't be fun. Also, a speed upgrade would also mess up a lot of stuff balance-wise. Hydralisks aren't that mobile, so to use them you need to use special strategies and they can't make up the bulk of your army.
For example, you can use Nydus Worms to do a strong push at a Protoss's front and reinforce with new Hydralisks instead of walking them across the map. Or, you can do Hydra drops, which can absolutely devastate a Protoss or Terran base by killing workers, pylons, or add-ons super fast. Whenever I see a Zerg doing strategies like that, they always seem to be really effective, but I don't see Zergs do it often enough. Hydras are super strong units, you just can't mass them and expect to win ONLY massing Hydralisks, it would be ridiculous if you could in any situation.
Your idea about having Ultralisks that move as fast as Lings is downright insane. Maybe a bit faster or an added bonus on creep, but having them move too fast is crazy. They might not be the best unit in the game, but they're still pretty big and pretty hard to deal with.
On August 31 2011 23:20 Morphling_ wrote: Please, spare us the ridiculous hyperbole. Roaches do not outheal storm, even after upgraded regen. While roaches are burrowed they move so slow that a pre-schooler can land every storm on them, and you WILL be able to kill them if you have the energ and they dont pop out. All good zergs still use lings, lots of lings.
Maxing on roaches against toss isn't good, and lings are the natural complement to mass infestors. Do you know what destiny does when toss gets High temps? Switches to roaches, because a single storm can talk out half his army. He mentions time and time again that HT are the correct response to mass infestor, despite you thinking they are worthless.
HT are only easy to snipe if you position them poorly, and storms on the infestor ball will be just as devastating as fungals on the HTs (albeit, chain fungal is easier than hitting several storms).
I think you should think this post through a bit more. You say that a "pre-schooler" can kill roaches with storm, then say a top player switches TO roaches when the Protoss gets HTs because they don't die to storm.
It takes like five storms to kill a burrowed roach, that assumes there's no stacking of storm, no delay between storms, and that the roach eats 100% of the storm duration. Storm does not work against roaches at all. HTs are dubious against infestors, and do not do anything against brood lords. The only common zerg strat that storm is good against right now is mass banelings in overlords, because with relatively slow overlords they can't attack and force you to waste energy on storms, then quickly retreat to heal, burrowing under FFs if necessary.
Storm kills roaches and everything, it just so happens that Storm kills Zerglings better then just about any other unit in the game, however. So staying on Zergling against High Templar is just a bad idea. And how are HTs "dubious against infestors?" Feedback is so good and usually Infestors only have 90 Hitpoints which means that a single Feedback will kill them. And even if they land a Fungal, you'll still be able to get off a couple of Feedbacks and kill a good number of Infestors and a single fungal won't kill your HTs (plus you could always choose to spread out your HTs so they can't get hit by a single Fungal.
Also, you said that High Templar are horrible against Broodlords, but I've actually seen pros use storm on clumps of Broodlords over and over until the Broodlords health is so low that coupled with Blink Stalkers to snipe, they easily took out the massive, doom, Broodlord army.
And what do you mean they're only good against Banelings in overlords? I mean, I guess they're alright against Baneling drops, but unless they're going slow Overlords with drop they'll be able to outrun your High Templar. Plus, if you're storming overlords, did you know that Overlords have 55 more hit points then Roaches? Your whole argument is awful. High Templar are super strong. Storm is really good against everything. And if Destiny says that High Templar is the appropriate response to Ling/Infestor, he probably has more experience on the matter than you or anybody on this forum so we should go with what he says.
Does anybody else see a rise in PvP air builds after this patch hits?
My reasoning: Air as a midgame strategy has always been incredibly strong in PvP, probably the strongest in the game actually. However, PvP being the cheesefest it is, it's been nearly impossible to open in such a way that doesn't immediately lead to dying. However, now that both 4gate and blink stalkers rushes have received sizeable nerfs, It looks like builds such as 3gate robo will be basically 100% safe against anything the opposing toss can throw at it. However, there is one thing that is extremely strong against robo-centric builds: air.
Unfortunately, this could simply lead to another one of the the RPS setups that we've come to know and love in PvP, in this case changing it to Air > Robo > Rush > Air. Still, a rise in air builds would be a very welcome change to a matchup that rarely heads past 10 minutes as is.
Personally I think infestors are still a bit too strong. Damage against armor is fine but light damage is still too high imo. Gland upgrade is not that bad. I think zerg need fast rdy to use units. That is their style. However, another change I think people should think about is mana cost of infested terran and duration of neutral parasite(or range). But all the other changes I agree with, blue flame hellions are basically the fastest way to lose a game. Ultras needed to be better same with immortals. Blink stalker will only really affect PvP. PvZ I tihnk most people wait for the +2 attack timing anyways.
On August 31 2011 22:32 Zandar wrote: Will vision up ramp nerf the 7 roach rush a bit too? There's usally a zealot or supply depots just on top of the ramp so if you walk all 7 of them up the ramp, a few in the back won'tl be able to attack anymore, or will they keep vision because the roaches in the front have vision?
Anyone who doesn't bring an overlord for high-ground vision with their roach rush probably shouldn't be winning games with roach rushes.
I noted that now, Infestor neural parasite cannot target MASSIVE units! It is in the official patch notes. WTF is NP for now? No colossus, thor, battlecruiser, ultra capturing!
Looking at the Neural Parasite nerf, I feel like the Zerg now has no answer to T3 air from Terran or Protoss and our own Armies have become significantly weaker now that we can't prevent the "Heavy Support" from tearing apart our T2 units.
Our splash damage spell has been nerfed as well making infestors now a lot less attractive then they are now.
The question is how to re-arrange our army composition to better deal with Colossus death balls (maybe if they build void rays?) and Terran Mech. I'm just going to pretend as if people don't build motherships or battlecruisers or carriers.
The thor and the colossus may very well become the bane of our existence (along with t3 air).
Perhaps this is another hoo-rah for ling, bling, muta style again?
Updated my original post which contains loads of zerg bias, but I quite frankly feel I am in my right mind here.
NP nerf will completely destroy zerg synergy and zerg vs T / P metagame that has been going about for the last months. Thor, Battlecruiser, Colossus, Archon, Carrier, Mothership. Okay granted, battlecruisers are not the best option since they get ripped by corruptors, but every other unit I just listed, zerg now will have no real answer to other than throwing money at them. And with protoss and terran learning to harass better, pressure better, and macro better themselves, the big zerg advantage in that regard has been fading away. Infestors has been making up for it, but now... Well. I sure am looking forward to seeing what blizzard gives us to compensate for this, because zerg and protoss are currently competing for the spot as the weakest race, and this gigantic hammernerf seems utterly senseless.
Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. Implications and reasoning: Now this one is interesting. HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, but I cant help feel like the raven spells serve the same purpose. Turret; do damage. PDD: avoid damage. Seeker: do splash damage. Tanks already serve as splash on the ground, and thors as splash in the air. I am not sure if HSM will see more use after this, to be honest - its a very large investment for a spell that you might have included in your army by other means, anyway.
HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, yes. But imo HSM is the mst unserused spell all over the game. If ppl wanna see more HSM they should delete the HSM-research...
The long and gasheacy tech, the long and gasheavy buildtime for raven, plus the fragility of ravens make it kinda useless to go for it. You will never ever see more then 2 ravens on the field in the same game.
So why the hell they dont remove that tech, noone will cry "omg, this buff is op, now terran will go mass raven -> GG". And srsly, if you say so you should stop SC2.
On September 09 2011 19:56 Thraundil wrote: Updated my original post which contains loads of zerg bias, but I quite frankly feel I am in my right mind here.
NP nerf will completely destroy zerg synergy and zerg vs T / P metagame that has been going about for the last months. Thor, Battlecruiser, Colossus, Archon, Carrier, Mothership. Okay granted, battlecruisers are not the best option since they get ripped by corruptors, but every other unit I just listed, zerg now will have no real answer to other than throwing money at them. And with protoss and terran learning to harass better, pressure better, and macro better themselves, the big zerg advantage in that regard has been fading away. Infestors has been making up for it, but now... Well. I sure am looking forward to seeing what blizzard gives us to compensate for this, because zerg and protoss are currently competing for the spot as the weakest race, and this gigantic hammernerf seems utterly senseless.
I dont't think so. I feel like zerg was always too long on infestor tech. Infestor are the almighty counter to everything. It was used as a anti air unit, anti T3 unit, anti ground unit, anti massive unit, anti caster unit, as a harass unit. So it's really ok if Z now has to build corruptors again to counter colossus.... .
Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. Implications and reasoning: Now this one is interesting. HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, but I cant help feel like the raven spells serve the same purpose. Turret; do damage. PDD: avoid damage. Seeker: do splash damage. Tanks already serve as splash on the ground, and thors as splash in the air. I am not sure if HSM will see more use after this, to be honest - its a very large investment for a spell that you might have included in your army by other means, anyway.
HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, yes. But imo HSM is the mst unserused spell all over the game. If ppl wanna see more HSM they should delete the HSM-research...
The long and gasheacy tech, the long and gasheavy buildtime for raven, plus the fragility of ravens make it kinda useless to go for it. You will never ever see more then 2 ravens on the field in the same game.
So why the hell they dont remove that tech, noone will cry "omg, this buff is op, now terran will go mass raven -> GG". And srsly, if you say so you should stop SC2.
How about crying "1/1/1 is already the most powerful timing push in the game, why on earth would you buff it?" The most popular strategy for attempting to hold it right now involves a lot of slow zealots, a seeker missile would be game ending.
No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself.
On September 09 2011 19:56 Thraundil wrote: Updated my original post which contains loads of zerg bias, but I quite frankly feel I am in my right mind here.
NP nerf will completely destroy zerg synergy and zerg vs T / P metagame that has been going about for the last months. Thor, Battlecruiser, Colossus, Archon, Carrier, Mothership. Okay granted, battlecruisers are not the best option since they get ripped by corruptors, but every other unit I just listed, zerg now will have no real answer to other than throwing money at them. And with protoss and terran learning to harass better, pressure better, and macro better themselves, the big zerg advantage in that regard has been fading away. Infestors has been making up for it, but now... Well. I sure am looking forward to seeing what blizzard gives us to compensate for this, because zerg and protoss are currently competing for the spot as the weakest race, and this gigantic hammernerf seems utterly senseless.
I dont't think so. I feel like zerg was always too long on infestor tech. Infestor are the almighty counter to everything. It was used as a anti air unit, anti T3 unit, anti ground unit, anti massive unit, anti caster unit, as a harass unit. So it's really ok if Z now has to build corruptors again to counter colossus.... .
You make it sound as if you're talking of marines! And Corruptors don't counter Colossus btw, they have way too few range to hit them without getting utterly raped by Stalkers. The only counter to > 4 Colossus armies is either NPs or Brood Lords. The np change is completely ridiculous and 3 bases Toss will once again become nearly unstoppable for a Zerg.
On September 09 2011 19:56 Thraundil wrote: Updated my original post which contains loads of zerg bias, but I quite frankly feel I am in my right mind here.
NP nerf will completely destroy zerg synergy and zerg vs T / P metagame that has been going about for the last months. Thor, Battlecruiser, Colossus, Archon, Carrier, Mothership. Okay granted, battlecruisers are not the best option since they get ripped by corruptors, but every other unit I just listed, zerg now will have no real answer to other than throwing money at them. And with protoss and terran learning to harass better, pressure better, and macro better themselves, the big zerg advantage in that regard has been fading away. Infestors has been making up for it, but now... Well. I sure am looking forward to seeing what blizzard gives us to compensate for this, because zerg and protoss are currently competing for the spot as the weakest race, and this gigantic hammernerf seems utterly senseless.
I dont't think so. I feel like zerg was always too long on infestor tech. Infestor are the almighty counter to everything. It was used as a anti air unit, anti T3 unit, anti ground unit, anti massive unit, anti caster unit, as a harass unit. So it's really ok if Z now has to build corruptors again to counter colossus.... .
I would be fine with losing some of the infestors strength IF zerg has an alternative for anti-air. Corruptor is the only dedicated anti-air unit in the game, yet it is also by far the worst anti-air unit in the game. Remember the colossus / void ray / sentry / stalker death balls? Zerg would scout colossi and build corruptors, which get utterly crushed by void rays. Unupgraded, 2 corruptors (cost 300/200/4) barely defeats a single void ray (cost 250/150/3) without corruption (I here assume that in a big battle, spamming corruption might not be priority number 1).. Add multiple void rays, add stalker support underneath, and add to the fact that critical numbers of colossi wreck ground forces completely, especially with forcefield support. But I dont need to state all this - I think we all remember seeing these games where maxed zerg armies would clash into 150 supply protoss armies, the zerg would lose everything and the protoss would lose maybe a colossus and a few stalkers. If we return to the state of the game where corruptors are the only answer to colossi, we will simply see the return of colossi/voidray balls of death.
I agree with you on the "time on infestor tech" part. But this stems again from the lack of another option. Without infestors zerg HAS no anti-air. At least not an effective one. I would be fine with this change if for example corruptors damage was changed from +bonus to massive only, and into +bonus to armored (so it would also deal its bonus damage to void rays). Maybe a range buff also, so stalkers would not simply lolpwn them when they fly in to shoot. But as it stands right now in the patch notes... The future is bleak. Mass chain fungals might work on low levels, but as soon as protoss learns to spread their air forces out, and keeping in mind colossi and fungal have similar ranges, I dont see it working except with masses and masses of infestors - and that is where blinkstalkers come in to counteract that as well.
Clearly, now that they're trying to make HSM usable, they have to find another ability to nerf to take it's place in the "Never Researched" category.
In seriousness though, I don't understand why they're nerfing Neural. It's obnoxious to lose a high tech unit to it, but that was sort of the point of the ability. It seems like this is just a sweeping change by Blizzard. On one hand, this could be good, since it means they're actually using the PTR to test stuff out. But I can't imagine this going to live in it's current state; it'd hit Infestors way too hard. If they don't like the idea of mass Infestors taking over the core of a Mech or Protoss army, why not change it to have either a shorter duration or act merely as a suppression for the duration, instead of a full take over on massive?
On September 09 2011 19:56 Thraundil wrote: Updated my original post which contains loads of zerg bias, but I quite frankly feel I am in my right mind here.
NP nerf will completely destroy zerg synergy and zerg vs T / P metagame that has been going about for the last months. Thor, Battlecruiser, Colossus, Archon, Carrier, Mothership. Okay granted, battlecruisers are not the best option since they get ripped by corruptors, but every other unit I just listed, zerg now will have no real answer to other than throwing money at them. And with protoss and terran learning to harass better, pressure better, and macro better themselves, the big zerg advantage in that regard has been fading away. Infestors has been making up for it, but now... Well. I sure am looking forward to seeing what blizzard gives us to compensate for this, because zerg and protoss are currently competing for the spot as the weakest race, and this gigantic hammernerf seems utterly senseless.
I dont't think so. I feel like zerg was always too long on infestor tech. Infestor are the almighty counter to everything. It was used as a anti air unit, anti T3 unit, anti ground unit, anti massive unit, anti caster unit, as a harass unit. So it's really ok if Z now has to build corruptors again to counter colossus.... .
You make it sound as if you're talking of marines! And Corruptors don't counter Colossus btw, they have way too few range to hit them without getting utterly raped by Stalkers. The only counter to > 4 Colossus armies is either NPs or Brood Lords. The np change is completely ridiculous and 3 bases Toss will once again become nearly unstoppable for a Zerg.
Blizzard is heading the wrong way here.
Fungal + baneling drops fell out of favor because mass infestor is so much easier to execute and is more effective, but it still seems quite viable to me.
You make it sound as if you're talking of marines! And Corruptors don't counter Colossus btw, they have way too few range to hit them without getting utterly raped by Stalkers. The only counter to > 4 Colossus armies is either NPs or Brood Lords. The np change is completely ridiculous and 3 bases Toss will once again become nearly unstoppable for a Zerg.
Blizzard is heading the wrong way here.
The T has to build Vikings which get also raped hard by Stalkers. It's all about finding best way to engage by forcing oponent into a bad position
I would be fine with losing some of the infestors strength IF zerg has an alternative for anti-air. Corruptor is the only dedicated anti-air unit in the game, yet it is also by far the worst anti-air unit in the game. Remember the colossus / void ray / sentry / stalker death balls? Zerg would scout colossi and build corruptors, which get utterly crushed by void rays. Unupgraded, 2 corruptors (cost 300/200/4) barely defeats a single void ray (cost 250/150/3). Add multiple void rays, add stalker support underneath, and add to the fact that critical numbers of colossi wreck ground forces completely, especially with forcefield support. But I dont need to state all this - I think we all remember seeing these games where maxed zerg armies would clash into 150 supply protoss armies, the zerg would lose everything and the protoss would lose maybe a colossus and a few stalkers. If we return to the state of the game where corruptors are the only answer to colossi, we will simply see the return of colossi/voidray balls of death.
I agree with you on the "time on infestor tech" part. But this stems again from the lack of another option. Without infestors zerg HAS no anti-air. At least not an effective one. I would be fine with this change if for example corruptors damage was changed from +bonus to massive only, and into +bonus to armored (so it would also deal its bonus damage to void rays). But as it stands right now in the patch notes... The future is bleak. Mass chain fungals might work on low levels, but as soon as protoss learns to spread their air forces out, and keeping in mind colossi and fungal have similar ranges, I dont see it working except with masses and masses of infestors - and that is where blinkstalkers come in to counteract that as well.
I agree that it was hard to counter the "death ball". It was like trying to counter a T 1-1-1 as P .... . The point is that Z doesn't lose infestor unit. They can sill use them but in combination with other units. Fungal stalker -> focus colossus. Get Sentries out of position -> no FFS. It takes years until a death ball with all units is up on 2 base. It was a bit funny when Z is using ling infestor and winning with mass fungal. And on the other side P has to build every kind of unit and control them properly to survive.
But yes. I'm feeling like there were always a missing unit in the Z arsenal. But an almighty unit as infestor is not a solution.
In extension of my above post, here are some swift data on corruptor vs void ray. All is focusfire.
Corruptor: 200 hp 2 standard armor - armored unit. 14 dmg, 20 vs massive. Range 6 speed 1.9
Void ray: 100 shields, 150 hp. 0 standard armor - armored unit. 6 dmg, 10 vs armored. Range 6 speed 0.6. (8 dmg, 16 vs armored at full power).
2 corruptors vs 1 void ray, 0/0 on both:
Without corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 20 hp left. With corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 103 hp left.
3 corruptors vs 2 void rays, 0/0 on both (this is 450/300/6 worth of corruptors vs 500/300/6 worth of void rays):
Without corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 50 shields and full hp. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 100 hp.
6 corruptors vs 4 void rays, 0/0 on both:
Without corruption: Void rays win, 2 survive one with 68 hp other full. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 90 shields and full hp.
12 corruptors vs 8 void rays, +1 attack on both:
Without corruption: void rays win. 3 survive, with full hp and one taking ~50 shield damage. With corruption: void rays win, 2 survive, one taking 48 life damage.
As you can see, disregarding upgrades, with equal resources and supply invested void rays beat corruptors in a bad way - and the more void rays there is the worst it gets. This means that just to handle the supporting void rays, zerg needs at least double the amount of corruptors as void rays - this is not only more resources, but also more supply. Then there also need to be more corruptors left over to deal with the actual colossi. Oh, and if the corruptors fire on the void rays first, the entire ground force of the zerg will disintegrate. Its a loss/loss situation to answer colossi with corruptors if the protoss adds void rays to the mix.
The T has to build Vikings which get also raped hard by Stalkers. It's all about finding best way to engage by forcing oponent into a bad position
True. But corruptor is range 6, viking is range 9. And vikings do alot more anti-air damage than corruptors for a cheapter cost. For example 2 microed vikings kill a void ray while both surviving - even though the void ray costs more.
Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. Implications and reasoning: Now this one is interesting. HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, but I cant help feel like the raven spells serve the same purpose. Turret; do damage. PDD: avoid damage. Seeker: do splash damage. Tanks already serve as splash on the ground, and thors as splash in the air. I am not sure if HSM will see more use after this, to be honest - its a very large investment for a spell that you might have included in your army by other means, anyway.
HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, yes. But imo HSM is the mst unserused spell all over the game. If ppl wanna see more HSM they should delete the HSM-research...
The long and gasheacy tech, the long and gasheavy buildtime for raven, plus the fragility of ravens make it kinda useless to go for it. You will never ever see more then 2 ravens on the field in the same game.
So why the hell they dont remove that tech, noone will cry "omg, this buff is op, now terran will go mass raven -> GG". And srsly, if you say so you should stop SC2.
How about crying "1/1/1 is already the most powerful timing push in the game, why on earth would you buff it?" The most popular strategy for attempting to hold it right now involves a lot of slow zealots, a seeker missile would be game ending.
No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself.
Lol, you cant scout a 1-1-1 until terran is moving out. So you go blind for mass zealots just to hold a possible 1-1-1? A well timed 1-1-1 hits when the raven hit the 100 energy for his PDD, HSM would need 125 Energy. The push would be delayed by a half minute. Wanna see the protoss who cant hold off a delayed 1-1-1 without a PDD, and a HSM on Zealots, which can be microed away easily.
What about "No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself."
Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. Implications and reasoning: Now this one is interesting. HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, but I cant help feel like the raven spells serve the same purpose. Turret; do damage. PDD: avoid damage. Seeker: do splash damage. Tanks already serve as splash on the ground, and thors as splash in the air. I am not sure if HSM will see more use after this, to be honest - its a very large investment for a spell that you might have included in your army by other means, anyway.
HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, yes. But imo HSM is the mst unserused spell all over the game. If ppl wanna see more HSM they should delete the HSM-research...
The long and gasheacy tech, the long and gasheavy buildtime for raven, plus the fragility of ravens make it kinda useless to go for it. You will never ever see more then 2 ravens on the field in the same game.
So why the hell they dont remove that tech, noone will cry "omg, this buff is op, now terran will go mass raven -> GG". And srsly, if you say so you should stop SC2.
How about crying "1/1/1 is already the most powerful timing push in the game, why on earth would you buff it?" The most popular strategy for attempting to hold it right now involves a lot of slow zealots, a seeker missile would be game ending.
No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself.
Lol, you cant scout a 1-1-1 until terran is moving out. So you go blind for mass zealots just to hold a possible 1-1-1? A well timed 1-1-1 hits when the raven hit the 100 energy for his PDD, HSM would need 125 Energy. The push would be delayed by a half minute. Wanna see the protoss who cant hold off a delayed 1-1-1 without a PDD, and a HSM on Zealots, which can be microed away easily.
What about "No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself."
Many protoss go for robotics facility due to the risk of cloaked banshee. An observer will spot the 1/1/1 in progress. Delaying the push by half a minute will give the protoss maybe 3 or 4 more units. A HSM flies faster than zealots run - it will connect. I think YOU are the one who havent considered multiple facets of the change, and I would personally like to see hard evidence before ruling this out. HSM needs research time. Consider raven harass against a workerline if HSM was not an investment - keeping in mind workers cannot outrun HSM.
Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. Implications and reasoning: Now this one is interesting. HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, but I cant help feel like the raven spells serve the same purpose. Turret; do damage. PDD: avoid damage. Seeker: do splash damage. Tanks already serve as splash on the ground, and thors as splash in the air. I am not sure if HSM will see more use after this, to be honest - its a very large investment for a spell that you might have included in your army by other means, anyway.
HSM is the most underused spell out of the raven, yes. But imo HSM is the mst unserused spell all over the game. If ppl wanna see more HSM they should delete the HSM-research...
The long and gasheacy tech, the long and gasheavy buildtime for raven, plus the fragility of ravens make it kinda useless to go for it. You will never ever see more then 2 ravens on the field in the same game.
So why the hell they dont remove that tech, noone will cry "omg, this buff is op, now terran will go mass raven -> GG". And srsly, if you say so you should stop SC2.
How about crying "1/1/1 is already the most powerful timing push in the game, why on earth would you buff it?" The most popular strategy for attempting to hold it right now involves a lot of slow zealots, a seeker missile would be game ending.
No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself.
Lol, you cant scout a 1-1-1 until terran is moving out. So you go blind for mass zealots just to hold a possible 1-1-1? A well timed 1-1-1 hits when the raven hit the 100 energy for his PDD, HSM would need 125 Energy. The push would be delayed by a minute. Wanna see the protoss who cant hold off a 1minute delayed 1-1-1 without a PDD, and a HSM on Zealots, which can be microed away easily.
What about "No need to make such general statements about other people when you haven't considered multiple facets of a change yourself."
1. Your observer reaches the Terran before they push out, usually giving you time to warp in 1-2 rounds of units: if you see it is a 1/1/1, then you make zealots (and chronoboost Immortals). 2. Not all 1/1/1 builds incorporate a Raven, and those that do usually get a Banshee first. The Terran could swap the order and hit at the same timing with a Seeker Missile, or alternatively delay the push by half a minute - it would still be deadly. 3. After the patch Seeker Missiles will be much faster than Zealots, so I wouldn't say they can be microed "easily".
Zerg will make corru/infest instead of a lame mass infest. Void rays are not that good vs infest since you can fungal (with the bonus) forever OR fungal + infested.
NP 3 colossus 3/3 can end the game before the infest get sniped.
On September 09 2011 21:12 Thraundil wrote: In extension of my above post, here are some swift data on corruptor vs void ray. All is focusfire.
Corruptor: 200 hp 2 standard armor - armored unit. 14 dmg, 20 vs massive. Range 6 speed 1.9
Void ray: 100 shields, 150 hp. 0 standard armor - armored unit. 6 dmg, 10 vs armored. Range 6 speed 0.6. (8 dmg, 16 vs armored at full power).
2 corruptors vs 1 void ray, 0/0 on both:
Without corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 20 hp left. With corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 103 hp left.
3 corruptors vs 2 void rays, 0/0 on both (this is 450/300/6 worth of corruptors vs 500/300/6 worth of void rays):
Without corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 50 shields and full hp. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 100 hp.
6 corruptors vs 4 void rays, 0/0 on both:
Without corruption: Void rays win, 2 survive one with 68 hp other full. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 90 shields and full hp.
12 corruptors vs 8 void rays, +1 attack on both:
Without corruption: void rays win. 3 survive, with full hp and one taking ~50 shield damage. With corruption: void rays win, 2 survive, one taking 48 life damage.
As you can see, disregarding upgrades, with equal resources and supply invested void rays beat corruptors in a bad way - and the more void rays there is the worst it gets. This means that just to handle the supporting void rays, zerg needs at least double the amount of corruptors as void rays - this is not only more resources, but also more supply. Then there also need to be more corruptors left over to deal with the actual colossi. Oh, and if the corruptors fire on the void rays first, the entire ground force of the zerg will disintegrate. Its a loss/loss situation to answer colossi with corruptors if the protoss adds void rays to the mix.
The T has to build Vikings which get also raped hard by Stalkers. It's all about finding best way to engage by forcing oponent into a bad position
True. But corruptor is range 6, viking is range 9. And vikings do alot more anti-air damage than corruptors for a cheapter cost. For example 2 microed vikings kill a void ray while both surviving - even though the void ray costs more.
Your calculations seem to be correct. But as always, the game doesn't depend on unit vs unit stats. All i want to say is that there are more good strategies (besides almighty infestor + random unit) to counter the death ball which require micro and good gaming sense. Like mana in an interview said: P has to use all kind of units to survive in the current state. I think SC2 will now be a bit more interesting and versatile. I'm looking forward to baneling drops again or use of nydus. And i'm saying this as P because i have to micro properly which i can't when my army is fungaled by 15 infestors.
The NP change in my opinion is like the US government worrying about a college football playoff in the midst of 9% employment. The mass infestor style is not what Blizzard is understandably looking for in the matchup, but they nerfed literally the only unit that gives Zerg a fighting chance in the matchup. Once P gets to a critical mass of colossus, the only prayer Z had was to NP a couple of colossus and hope they live (the infestors) long enough to get a couple shots off.
The problem is that Z has no good way of handling colossus now. None. Blizzard clearly wants corrupters to be the answer, but in that case the corrupter needs a serious buff, either in range or speed or both. Taking away Z's only answer and not giving them another is a terrible, terrible idea. The deathball is going to roll, roll, roll, and Z's are going to get steamrolled in the months it will take for Blizzard to realize how shortsighted this change is.
On September 09 2011 21:12 Thraundil wrote: In extension of my above post, here are some swift data on corruptor vs void ray. All is focusfire.
Corruptor: 200 hp 2 standard armor - armored unit. 14 dmg, 20 vs massive. Range 6 speed 1.9
Void ray: 100 shields, 150 hp. 0 standard armor - armored unit. 6 dmg, 10 vs armored. Range 6 speed 0.6. (8 dmg, 16 vs armored at full power).
2 corruptors vs 1 void ray, 0/0 on both:
Without corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 20 hp left. With corruption: Corruptors win. 1 survive with 103 hp left.
3 corruptors vs 2 void rays, 0/0 on both (this is 450/300/6 worth of corruptors vs 500/300/6 worth of void rays):
Without corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 50 shields and full hp. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 100 hp.
6 corruptors vs 4 void rays, 0/0 on both:
Without corruption: Void rays win, 2 survive one with 68 hp other full. With corruption: Void rays win, 1 survive with 90 shields and full hp.
12 corruptors vs 8 void rays, +1 attack on both:
Without corruption: void rays win. 3 survive, with full hp and one taking ~50 shield damage. With corruption: void rays win, 2 survive, one taking 48 life damage.
As you can see, disregarding upgrades, with equal resources and supply invested void rays beat corruptors in a bad way - and the more void rays there is the worst it gets. This means that just to handle the supporting void rays, zerg needs at least double the amount of corruptors as void rays - this is not only more resources, but also more supply. Then there also need to be more corruptors left over to deal with the actual colossi. Oh, and if the corruptors fire on the void rays first, the entire ground force of the zerg will disintegrate. Its a loss/loss situation to answer colossi with corruptors if the protoss adds void rays to the mix.
The T has to build Vikings which get also raped hard by Stalkers. It's all about finding best way to engage by forcing oponent into a bad position
True. But corruptor is range 6, viking is range 9. And vikings do alot more anti-air damage than corruptors for a cheapter cost. For example 2 microed vikings kill a void ray while both surviving - even though the void ray costs more.
But if they are getting colossus AND void ray then they won't have enough gas to match your corruptor investment, 4 colossus means 6 less void rays so if you go pure roach corruptor you will have significantly more corruptors than he will have void rays, as roaches are more cost efficient than both colossus and stalkers
Your calculations seem to be correct. But as always, the game doesn't depend on unit vs unit stats. All i want to say is that there are more good strategies (besides almighty infestor + random unit) to counter the death ball which require micro and good gaming sense. Like mana in an interview said: P has to use all kind of units to survive in the current state. I think SC2 will now be a bit more interesting and versatile. I'm looking forward to baneling drops again or use of nydus. And i'm saying this as P because i have to micro properly which i can't when my army is fungaled by 15 infestors.
True, its not unit vs unit stats. I posted the above in the hopes that someone from blizzard will read this and realise what they are, in fact, doing. I agree with your micro part, though. Fungal seem to be the zerg forcefield; it takes micro out of the equation and makes the engagements sort of "stand still and shoot and hope you dont die". I too would like some change here - I dislike the infestor style. But its the only thing that works at the moment. There simply is no other good way to survive the midgame pushes.
But if they are getting colossus AND void ray then they won't have enough gas to match your corruptor investment, 4 colossus means 6 less void rays so if you go pure roach corruptor you will have significantly more corruptors than he will have void rays.
Oh that was my primary tactic before the infestor buff where people started to realise infestors where actually awesome. I got stomped unless I majorly outmacroed my opponent - and even then, it was close. Why? In the exact moment the protoss moves out, I must have the perfect number of corruptors. Make too many, and your roach count will suffer and die to stalker/sentry. Make too few, and well, yeah, your roach count will die to the colossi. This was very hard to predict, I remember, and I often lost simply for making 5 corruptors too many.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Arrian wrote: The NP change in my opinion is like the US government worrying about a college football playoff in the midst of 9% employment. The mass infestor style is not what Blizzard is understandably looking for in the matchup, but they nerfed literally the only unit that gives Zerg a fighting chance in the matchup. Once P gets to a critical mass of colossus, the only prayer Z had was to NP a couple of colossus and hope they live (the infestors) long enough to get a couple shots off.
The problem is that Z has no good way of handling colossus now. None. Blizzard clearly wants corrupters to be the answer, but in that case the corrupter needs a serious buff, either in range or speed or both. Taking away Z's only answer and not giving them another is a terrible, terrible idea. The deathball is going to roll, roll, roll, and Z's are going to get steamrolled in the months it will take for Blizzard to realize how shortsighted this change is.
Fungal growth still works. The colossi are in the back. You can easily just spam your 9 range fungal at the front of the army until everything dies. If he moves his colossi forward, they become easy to snipe.
Currently infestors are anti-everything units in ZvP that have no counter. Templar do not work, as feedback has the same range as fungal and NP so it is impossible to prevent the infestors from casting their spells. You cannot make lots of small, cheap units, because fungal massacres that, and NP counters the strategy of making large, expensive units.
Given Zerg's large resource advantage by design infestors are just too strong. Protoss was willing to pay 150 gas for a single storm when amulet existed, Zerg can abuse sacrificing 150 gas infestors for a single fungal even more effectively.
On September 09 2011 21:43 Arrian wrote: The NP change in my opinion is like the US government worrying about a college football playoff in the midst of 9% employment. The mass infestor style is not what Blizzard is understandably looking for in the matchup, but they nerfed literally the only unit that gives Zerg a fighting chance in the matchup. Once P gets to a critical mass of colossus, the only prayer Z had was to NP a couple of colossus and hope they live (the infestors) long enough to get a couple shots off.
The problem is that Z has no good way of handling colossus now. None. Blizzard clearly wants corrupters to be the answer, but in that case the corrupter needs a serious buff, either in range or speed or both. Taking away Z's only answer and not giving them another is a terrible, terrible idea. The deathball is going to roll, roll, roll, and Z's are going to get steamrolled in the months it will take for Blizzard to realize how shortsighted this change is.
Fungal growth still works. The colossi are in the back. You can easily just spam your 9 range fungal at the front of the army until everything dies. If he moves his colossi forward, they become easy to snipe.
Currently infestors are anti-everything units in ZvP that have no counter. Templar do not work, as feedback has the same range as fungal and NP so it is impossible to prevent the infestors from casting their spells. You cannot make lots of small, cheap units, because fungal massacres that, and NP counters the strategy of making large, expensive units.
Given Zerg's large resource advantage by design infestors are just too strong. Protoss was willing to pay 150 gas for a single storm when amulet existed, Zerg can abuse sacrificing 150 gas infestors for a single fungal even more effectively.
I'm not arguing that the infestor didnt need a nerf, I'm arguing that Blizzard should have buffed something else to help handle the colossus deathball. Remember, Colossi have range 9 too when upgraded, so sniping the slow infestor, whether by colossus, blink stalkers, or otherwise works without much problem if they're caught out of position (as they require considerable babysitting this isn't too difficult).
Yes, infestors are too powerful in the matchup though I doubt this was really the solution to the problem. The problem is that colossus are still too powerful in numbers 4>, and Zerg has no answer minus the infestor. Remember hydra/roach/corrupter, the clunky, expensive composition that P's found out they could exploit and destroy? That's Zerg's next best answer. FFs make blings impossible to use, infestors are now slow, expensive, and they can only injure stalkers meaningfully. Roaches, hydras, zerglings, and mutas get eaten up by the death ball...so really, what did zerg have but the infestor? Zergs began to build a ridiculous number of infestors not because they were enormously good (though they were before the nerfs) but because they literally have no other options. That's why I call this change short sighted, because no suitable alternative was provided to Zerg players. They just have to deal with it and go back to compositions that get habitually rolled by the death ball.
On September 09 2011 22:23 Arrian wrote: I'm not arguing that the infestor didnt need a nerf, I'm arguing that Blizzard should have buffed something else to help handle the colossus deathball. Remember, Colossi have range 9 too when upgraded, so sniping the slow infestor, whether by colossus, blink stalkers, or otherwise works without much problem if they're caught out of position (as they require considerable babysitting this isn't too difficult).
Yes, infestors are too powerful in the matchup though I doubt this was really the solution to the problem. The problem is that colossus are still too powerful in numbers 4>, and Zerg has no answer minus the infestor. Remember hydra/roach/corrupter, the clunky, expensive composition that P's found out they could exploit and destroy? That's Zerg's next best answer. FFs make blings impossible to use, infestors are now slow, expensive, and they can only injure stalkers meaningfully. Roaches, hydras, zerglings, and mutas get eaten up by the death ball...so really, what did zerg have but the infestor? Zergs began to build a ridiculous number of infestors not because they were enormously good (though they were before the nerfs) but because they literally have no other options. That's why I call this change short sighted, because no suitable alternative was provided to Zerg players. They just have to deal with it and go back to compositions that get habitually rolled by the death ball.
What happens in the late game is Zerg masses so many infestors that sniping them becomes irrelevant. Sure, you can burn down 6-8 of them instantly with your colossi. So what? He has 20 more that still NP everything you have before you can get off a third volley. Templar are similarly useless. He has 30 infestors and only needs 4-5 of them to live to mass fungal your entire army to death while it sits there helpless. You can succeed in exploding large numbers of them with feedback and it just doesn't matter.
Infestors are still great as a support unit. Against colossi, you can use your roaches to tank while fungal spamming his support units. You don't have to get in range of the colossi. At that point it's your AE damage against his and while his AE damage is better, you have a lot more resources to make a lot more units.
On September 09 2011 22:10 Xequecal wrote: Currently infestors are anti-everything units in ZvP that have no counter. Templar do not work, as feedback has the same range as fungal and NP so it is impossible to prevent the infestors from casting their spells. You cannot make lots of small, cheap units, because fungal massacres that, and NP counters the strategy of making large, expensive units.
You know this is total bollocks right? High Templar are not only a counter to Infestors they're a highly effective one. Zerg players aren't robots, they're not going to manage to catch your Templar right on the edge of the fungal range even 50% of the time. Destiny, one of the best Infestor users there is still gets his Festors massacred by Templar a lot. Have you seen Idra use infestors? He doesn't keep them on their maximum rage at all times, in fact he keeps them right next to his army, easily close enough to get Feedbacks off. These are not scrubs, they're some of the worlds top players, and yet they still get their Infestors feedbacked, if it's possible for them to get hit you should be able to hit your opponents with it as well.
Infestors cover the massive gaps the Zerg arsenal has at the moment. I can't see this change going too well, maybe if they made the effort to make Hydralisks a viable unit? We're going back to the bad old days of having to have perfect rations of corruptors to fight Colossus deathballs and I don't think anyone wants that,
You know this is total bollocks right? High Templar are not only a counter to Infestors they're a highly effective one. Zerg players aren't robots, they're not going to manage to catch your Templar right on the edge of the fungal range even 50% of the time. Destiny, one of the best Infestor users there is still gets his Festors massacred by Templar a lot.
Infestors cover the massive gaps the Zerg arsenal has at the moment. I can't see this change going too well, maybe if they made the effort to make Hydralisks a viable unit? We're going back to the bad old days of having to have perfect rations of corruptors to fight Colossus deathballs and I don't think anyone wants that,
No, they're not going to manage to catch your templar like that. That's not the point. If an infestor casts fungal and then immediately dies, it's already paid for itself. Since fungal/feedback have the same range, you absolutely cannot prevent fungals from going off with feedback. Remember amulet? Protoss was perfectly willing to blow 150 gas on sacrificial templar that would storm once and then immediately die. Zerg is the race with the most resources, this is even more effective for them.
I honestly think im more worried about meching terrans than np'ing collosus. Since i go the ling bane drop infestor style in zvp, usually if they go collo they don't live long enough to do damage because all the support units vanish from the banes and then the collo are free pickings.
On September 09 2011 22:37 Xequecal wrote: No, they're not going to manage to catch your templar like that. That's not the point. If an infestor casts fungal and then immediately dies, it's already paid for itself. Since fungal/feedback have the same range, you absolutely cannot prevent fungals from going off with feedback. Remember amulet? Protoss was perfectly willing to blow 150 gas on sacrificial templar that would storm once and then immediately die. Zerg is the race with the most resources, this is even more effective for them.
You are vastly overexaggerating the damage Fungal Growth does. It's negligable, an Infestor that gets a single Fungal off has definitely NOT paid for itself, you can't even kill workers with a single fungal. Don't exaggerate, if your point is good enough then you don't need to say stuff like "He'll still have 20 Infestors left" No-one gets that many infestors except Destiny, and he loses a lot of them to feedbacks, snipes, EMp, etc every single game.
Basically this change means the ONLY counter to Colossi Zerg have is the Corruptor and I think it's been well documented how bad the corruptor is. Remember early in the year where a Zerg would get a few too many Corruptors and get romemd by Blink Stalkers, or too few and Colossi would absolutely ruin Roaches by the dozen? Do we want to go back to that? Shouldn't Zerg get a more effective counter before we start taking away one of the few units they have that can actually turn the tables of a huge battle?
Roaches are not food efficient, Hydras are terrible, Ultras are even worse, there's not exactly much for the Zerg to fall back on to fight off a Protoss force with superior firepower. We'll go back to a 200 food protoss army being insta win.
I fully support the Neural Parasite change. Fact is, a 150 gas tier 2 unit is basically able to hardcounter more expensive tier 3 units... Combined with the fact that Zerg expand the easiest and will usually have a higher gas income than Terran or Protoss players allowing for greater infestor numbers than the tier 3 units. Fact was, you could not rely on a high tech army as Protoss anymore since you would just have it stolen and work against you. The Zergs that are whining about this change are saying "What can we possibly do against now without Neural parasite?"
That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units.
Do not discount the Ultra build time either guys... a 20 second buff is a LOT. You'll be able to field Ultras much more quickly now and I think that has to become part of the Zerg metagame. You can still go Ling/Infestor early game to be able to hold off a bunch of different kinds of pushes, but instead of continuing to build infestors, the zerg should now try and make a wave of Ultras to punch through. Ultralisks have a lot of potential, and with the buff I think they might become quite playable.
NP nerf is just ridicolous. Seems like Blizzard despiratly wants zerg to be the worst race in the game. Blabla infestor is strong and if i dont counter it i will get punished for that.
Its the same with the Colossus. If i dont get NP (byebye) or Corruptor i get raped really badly. Roaches CANNOT tank aoe damage of colossus. I dont know what you guys are talkin about but thats just not possible. Sorry but thats ridicolous.
So Terrans started to realize they have a unit called GHOST. and after exactly ONE YEAR they started using it (funday monday does not count -.-) BUt Protoss player? As idra said they are retarded lol x). I just help you out here a little bit. Protoss has a unit called hightemplar. And with a single click you can kill an infestor. Seems great right? but the only thing toss player are able to is : HERP DERP infestoorzz imBa herp derp. I dont wanna talk about the BLueflame icon and the mass use of hellions after that. SERIOUSLY?
Same in ZvP. Ever tried to NP a tank? no matter if on open field or from cliff ... Since Tanks do absurd amount of damage to armoured units BOOOM infestor no more. So now that after one year of being the worst race in the game Zerg got a chance with the infestor to play on the same level. but one month past and Protoss player started complaining and IMMEDIATLY infestors gets nerfed. 1. FUngal nerf 2. Speed nerf 3. Herp Derp infestorz op nerf
So now what am i going to do against t1 gateway units + a few colossi? Roach Hydra Ling Baneling-drop INfestor Corruptor? maybe some mutas cause void rays rape corruptor?
Hey but wait there is hope. We can get the most useless unit called Ultralisk now faster.
BLIZZARD. FIX THE DAMN Ultra before putting it into the game. those ultras dont move better than dragoons ffs.
TIme to switch to toss again cause death ball is unstoppable again. in 2 months toss will complain about emp being to strong ... so emp will only drain energy then not shields anymore. Mark my words
So for what can i use Neural parasite now? Zealots? sentries? LOL Archons and Colossi were the only unit worth being np'ed but now its not possible anymore.
Dont talk about my mistakes there. Im german. And im angry and upset. Peace out
And to Crazedmike, nope, you cant stop a good 2 base colo push without neural parasite as ling/infestor. It just removes the viability of doing it altogether. And do you think you can get ultras up in time to react to it? Think again.
You would survive by going banelingdrops, but then P just doesnt push and you sunk a whole lot of gas into something you wont get too much use of right away. P gets a third, and you are so far behind in economy just to stop a push that he didnt need to go through with.
That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me.
Please stop saying thise. The Infestor does not counter 'everything' a Protoss does. It gives the Zerg a fighting chance should the Protoss micro his units poorly, it's the only thing stopping Zerg from getting rolled by deathballs 24/7.
Do not discount the Ultra build time either guys... a 20 second buff is a LOT. You'll be able to field Ultras much more quickly now and I think that has to become part of the Zerg metagame.
Ultras are terrible units, building faster doesn't change the fact they're terrible units. It's like making Carriers build 15s faster and me saying "Don't worry about those pesky infestors, you can use Carriers now!" ignoring all the flaws of why people don't use it in the first place.
You don't seem to understand why NP is integral and neccessary for Zerg to survive late game max food armies unfortunately.
I fully support the Neural Parasite change. Fact is, a 150 gas tier 2 unit is basically able to hardcounter more expensive tier 3 units... Combined with the fact that Zerg expand the easiest and will usually have a higher gas income than Terran or Protoss players allowing for greater infestor numbers than the tier 3 units. Fact was, you could not rely on a high tech army as Protoss anymore since you would just have it stolen and work against you. The Zergs that are whining about this change are saying "What can we possibly do against now without Neural parasite?"
So your complaining about how a t2 unit kills a more expensive t3 unit ARE YOU KIDDING ME Marine 50/0 against Muta 100/100 ..... period. not necessary to say anything about it Go open up your unit test map and try.
On September 09 2011 22:48 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units.
I doubt most people will even research Neural Parasite if it gets nerfed like this. Maybe against mass Immortal, but not much else. Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to. The reason PvZ is hard right now is not because of Fungal doing 30% more dmg to armored, it's Zerg play having evolved while Protoss play remained the same. People used to Roach all-in against FFE because they felt too behind, now Protoss feels behind. People used to lose their 3rds to Stargate play, now that play rarely gets Protoss ahead.
Zerg was struggling for such a long time, much longer than Protoss, I think a huge nerf like this is not justified. Almost everything Zerg has sucks against Colossus, which we saw for almost a year.
On September 09 2011 22:44 Zahki wrote: You are vastly overexaggerating the damage Fungal Growth does. It's negligable, an Infestor that gets a single Fungal off has definitely NOT paid for itself, you can't even kill workers with a single fungal. Don't exaggerate, if your point is good enough then you don't need to say stuff like "He'll still have 20 Infestors left" No-one gets that many infestors except Destiny, and he loses a lot of them to feedbacks, snipes, EMp, etc every single game.
Basically this change means the ONLY counter to Colossi Zerg have is the Corruptor and I think it's been well documented how bad the corruptor is. Remember early in the year where a Zerg would get a few too many Corruptors and get romemd by Blink Stalkers, or too few and Colossi would absolutely ruin Roaches by the dozen? Do we want to go back to that? Shouldn't Zerg get a more effective counter before we start taking away one of the few units they have that can actually turn the tables of a huge battle?
Roaches are not food efficient, Hydras are terrible, Ultras are even worse, there's not exactly much for the Zerg to fall back on to fight off a Protoss force with superior firepower. We'll go back to a 200 food protoss army being insta win.
Uhm, I'm not exaggerating. Fungal growth generally does more damage than psi storm. It really does. Right now it does 36/47 damage compared to storm's 80, but it has a significantly larger radius to catch more units and you can't move out of it.
Infestors are still perfectly viable as a support unit in ZvP. Their colossi are in the back, you can still fungal the front of their army without getting roasted. That deals a huge amount of DPS, and massacres sentries extremely effectively, allowing your roaches to break them before they get slaughtered. Yes their AE damage output is still superior but you have a better economy than they do. If you trade all your roaches for all their stalkers/sentries you are winning the game, even if their colossi aren't touched.
I don't get the comments that claim that infestors were too powerful in a PvZ matchup. What's going on at the top level of play? There are now Zerg players, not an overwhelming amount. Not more than there should be. But the top six at competitions are no longer being dominated by Terran and sometimes Protoss. I'd say that alone is indicative of balance at the top level of play.
What goes on at the bottom end of play? Not much change, as to get infestors out at a good time and use them efficiently requires the decent use of more than 4 hotkeys. If you've mastered that basic level of mechanics, you're probably not in Bronze, Silver or Gold.
So at the mid range (Plat, Diamond, Low Masters) there has been some shifting about due to more infestor play. I'm pretty sure that most of the posters on TL are in this range and from the looks of it, most of us think that the the nerf goes too far.
So what exactly was Blizzard targeting here? Hopefully the change doesn't come in.
On September 09 2011 23:06 ForevaADrone wrote: I don't get the comments that claim that infestors were too powerful in a PvZ matchup. What's going on at the top level of play? There are now Zerg players, not an overwhelming amount. Not more than there should be. But the top six at competitions are no longer being dominated by Terran and sometimes Protoss. I'd say that alone is indicative of balance at the top level of play.
What goes on at the bottom end of play? Not much change, as to get infestors out at a good time and use them efficiently requires the decent use of more than 4 hotkeys. If you've mastered that basic level of mechanics, you're probably not in Bronze, Silver or Gold.
So at the mid range (Plat, Diamond, Low Masters) there has been some shifting about due to more infestor play. I'm pretty sure that most of the posters on TL are in this range and from the looks of it, most of us think that the the nerf goes too far.
So what exactly was Blizzard targeting here? Hopefully the change doesn't come in.
What, seriously? The top level of play is completely and utterly dominated by Terran. It always has been. Terran has never, ever gone below 45% win rate against Z or P ever in the history of this game. Right now GSL code S is 20 Terrans, 7 Zerg, 5 Protoss. Protoss has never dominated anything.
The target with this change is in ZvP if the Zerg reaches about 20 infestors you just straight up lose. There is nothing you can do, the game is over. That relegates the matchup to stupid 2-base timing attacks or taking a fast third and desperately trying to deny the Zerg fourth because if they get a fourth base the game is over.
On September 09 2011 23:02 Xequecal wrote: Uhm, I'm not exaggerating. Fungal growth generally does more damage than psi storm. It really does. Right now it does 36/47 damage compared to storm's 80, but it has a significantly larger radius to catch more units and you can't move out of it.
Significantly larger radius = 0.5? Your numbers are from before the patch as well, remember Fungal is getting nerfed as well. It's DPS is terrible. You don't seem to know much about Zerg or how they work. You only seem to be viewing things from a Protoss perspective without any understanding of how bad the Zerg ground army actually is when going head to head with a Stalker/Colossus deathball. Fungal won't make 1 iota of difference, trust me. It's going to be just like earlier in the year when it was nigh impossible to stop, because Zerg don't have access to any units that can do it.
The target with this change is in ZvP if the Zerg reaches about 20 infestors you just straight up lose. There is nothing you can do, the game is over. That relegates the matchup to stupid 2-base timing attacks or taking a fast third and desperately trying to deny the Zerg fourth because if they get a fourth base the game is over.
And yet you're championing a change that will mean if Protoss reach 200 food the game is over?
On September 09 2011 23:02 Xequecal wrote: Uhm, I'm not exaggerating. Fungal growth generally does more damage than psi storm. It really does. Right now it does 36/47 damage compared to storm's 80, but it has a significantly larger radius to catch more units and you can't move out of it.
Significantly larger radius = 0.5? Your numbers are from before the patch as well, remember Fungal is getting nerfed as well. It's DPS is terrible. You don't seem to know much about Zerg or how they work. You only seem to be viewing things from a Protoss perspective without any understanding of how bad the Zerg ground army actually is when going head to head with a Stalker/Colossus deathball. Fungal won't make 1 iota of difference, trust me. It's going to be just like earlier in the year when it was nigh impossible to stop, because Zerg don't have access to any units that can do it.
Yes, significantly larger. You do know how to find the area of a circle, I hope. In fact fungal covers close to double the area, psi storm's circle has an area of 7.06, fungal growth's circle has an area of 12.56. So yes, it is quite a bit more damaging than psi storm. Even the nerfed version does more damage than psistorm at least to armored. Close to double the area affected and not being able to move away results in that easily. Claiming fungal DPS is terrible is just laughable, you're making yourself look stupid.
The only thing I'm worried about in ZvP with the NP change is the mid-game zealot/archon/sentry composition. The solution is to do mad kiting with your roaches, but if the map doesn't allow it or he managed to accumulate some sentries and get good FFs out, I feel Zerg is gonna have a really hard time.
Not being able to NP Thors in ZvT mech is gonna really be a pain, though, even with hellion nerf.
On September 09 2011 21:30 Hane wrote: I think it's a good change for NP.
Zerg will make corru/infest instead of a lame mass infest. Void rays are not that good vs infest since you can fungal (with the bonus) forever OR fungal + infested.
NP 3 colossus 3/3 can end the game before the infest get sniped.
..and 3 colossus with 3/3 can end the game the other way around if they DON'T get NP:d and now NP is off the table. Just the fact that stealing those 3 units for a few seconds is game-changing says a lot about how powerful they are. A few swipes and whole armies just melt away. Yes I know zerg has corruptors but I think though has been said about them in this thread already.
It will sure be "exiting" if we can get back to having ppl turtling until maxed and A-moving deathballs again like cruncher did to idra etc. Nothing against cruncher though, playing to win is to be expected and I'm just using it as an example. Don't hate the player hate the gaaame!
The huge difference is that you can move out of storms but not out of fungal. If caught off guard by fungal your army remains in a ball and the zerg gets a wide arc on you, storm doesn't provide positional benefits like that. Also whoever said roaches werent efficient must be mad, 75/25 for a ranged 140hp unit that deals decent damage?
On September 09 2011 23:23 Xequecal wrote:Claiming fungal DPS is terrible is just laughable, you're making yourself look stupid.
Storm does more DPS than fungal, fact. Yet you're trying to make it appear worse. Your bias is really clouding your argument. High Templar are a strong counter to Infestors, Zerg have no counter to Stalker/Colossus play after this change goes through. All this change means is that the matchup is going to swing over in favour of Protoss by a huge amount, just like early in the year.
Also whoever said roaches werent efficient must be mad, 75/25 for a ranged 140hp unit that deals decent damage?
FOOD inefficient. Meaning that having 200 food of Roaches is worse than having 200 food of almost any other unit. If your army is comprised primarily of roaches you'll have a hard time winning batlles with equal food values because most units will beat them at equal food values. And lets face it if your army isn't comprised mostly of roaches, what else is there?
On September 09 2011 23:29 ForevaADrone wrote: Xequecal, sorry that you're bad at this game. I think a good Protoss would sing "I've got 99 problems but a HT ain't one".
HTs are shit. Play Protoss for awhile, you will realize this. They are shit units. They're not as bad as Hydralisks but it's pretty close. Yes I know they are used in PvT but the fact that you're forced to use them is a big reason why Terran dominates Protoss so hard. They move slow as hell, are expensive, have an effective build time of over a minute and a half before they can do bloody anything, and are hilariously easy to counter.
On September 09 2011 22:55 Zahki wrote: Please stop saying thise. The Infestor does not counter 'everything' a Protoss does. It gives the Zerg a fighting chance should the Protoss micro his units poorly, it's the only thing stopping Zerg from getting rolled by deathballs 24/7.
I disagree, you don't need to mismicro in order to get mass NPed as Protoss. As someone else posted, if they get something like 20 infestors the game is over, there is very little you can do. Besides, I think if you're worried about the Void Ray + Colossus death ball, I still think mass NP can still be extremely effective as you can still neural the voids and have them focus fire the colossi or themselves, giving your corrupters the ability to clean up the rest (or infested terrans if you so choose).
Ultras are terrible units, building faster doesn't change the fact they're terrible units. It's like making Carriers build 15s faster and me saying "Don't worry about those pesky infestors, you can use Carriers now!" ignoring all the flaws of why people don't use it in the first place.
You don't seem to understand why NP is integral and neccessary for Zerg to survive late game max food armies unfortunately.
I'm not saying you rush to ultras to try and fight a 2 base timing, but think back to the days where Spanishiwa was becoming popular and he used Ultras a LOT and very effectively against the Protoss. There are problems with the unit, I agree... but there are so many Ultralisk based armies that haven't even been experimented with yet... Nevermind the potential for some kind of ultralisk timing push... A 20 second decrease is HUGE... And if I was getting that for my beloved Carrier I would be jumping for joy and seeing if there was a way to exploit it, instead of immediately shutting down the notion by saying "Well carriers are bad units herp derp... A useless buff."
Ultras can have a place in the Zerg arsenal... They are retardedly effective with good Nydus Worm usage, and the fact that Overseers are cheaper now will only help make Nydus worms better as you are effectively able to have double the amount of changelings running around spotting stuff.
On September 09 2011 22:55 Coopa826 wrote:
So your complaining about how a t2 unit kills a more expensive t3 unit ARE YOU KIDDING ME Marine 50/0 against Muta 100/100 ..... period. not necessary to say anything about it Go open up your unit test map and try.
Yes, I went into the unit tester... That 1 marine died to that one Mutalisk. I'm not saying that lower tier units aren't able to counter higher tier ones... But it's usually a matter of number/cost. A single marine will die to a mutalisk, but 12 Marines will be able to engage 8 Mutalisks.... The point I was trying to make was that a single infestor was basically able to moot a unit that had greater gas and time cost than it's own... And the fact that everyone is saying "Oh the infestor is the only thing keeping me alive!" SAYS something in itself... The unit is too powerful. Hell, Idra doesn't seem to like Infestors but even HE has started using them.
Point is, the one unit is just too strong against pretty well everything, and that needed to change. I hope Blizzard will keep this change. Granted, I am a Protoss player so of course I am happy to hear this news, and no matter what you say I will not change my opinion so I'll agree to disagree... But many Zergs are saying that with Infestors it rewards the Zerg if they catch the Protoss out of position... This is not actually the reality, the reality is that Protoss has to rely on catching the Zerg out of position in order to deal with Infestors, because if the armies are both in position Protoss dies.
I fully support the Neural Parasite change. Fact is, a 150 gas tier 2 unit is basically able to hardcounter more expensive tier 3 units... Combined with the fact that Zerg expand the easiest and will usually have a higher gas income than Terran or Protoss players allowing for greater infestor numbers than the tier 3 units. Fact was, you could not rely on a high tech army as Protoss anymore since you would just have it stolen and work against you. The Zergs that are whining about this change are saying "What can we possibly do against now without Neural parasite?"
So your complaining about how a t2 unit kills a more expensive t3 unit ARE YOU KIDDING ME Marine 50/0 against Muta 100/100 ..... period. not necessary to say anything about it Go open up your unit test map and try.
doesnt 1 muta beat 1 marine ?
anyway marines are sopose to be the counter to mutas, they are the only effective unit against mutas and yea they do a good job at it
On September 09 2011 23:29 Zahki wrote: Storm does more DPS than fungal, fact. Yet you're trying to make it appear worse. Your bias is really clouding your argument. High Templar are a strong counter to Infestors, Zerg have no counter to Stalker/Colossus play after this change goes through. All this change means is that the matchup is going to swing over in favour of Protoss by a huge amount, just like early in the year.
I've explained, repeatedly now, why fungal does more damage than storm. Please come up with a response better than, "lol no."
Fungal is a perfectly viable counter to stalker/colossus play after this change. Stalkers still get massacred by fungal, sentries get massacred even worse. The colossi in the rear can't shoot infestors fungaling the stalkers. I admit it does create problems at lower skill levels because the Zerg is forced to micro while Protoss can just 1a, but at high level there is no problem.
On September 09 2011 23:34 Xequecal wrote: HTs are shit. Play Protoss for awhile, you will realize this. They are shit units. They're not as bad as Hydralisks but it's pretty close. Yes I know they are used in PvT but the fact that you're forced to use them is a big reason why Terran dominates Protoss so hard. They move slow as hell, are expensive, have an effective build time of over a minute and a half before they can do bloody anything, and are hilariously easy to counter.
Oh geez, I dunno what to say. Get better? High Templar are fantastic units against Zerg, storm can rip Roach armies to shreds, we all know Feedback kills infestors with ease and they can merge to form Archons, which do amazing damage to all Zerg units. They're slow and require a bit of care and micro, but HTs are really excellent casters and mesh well with Sentries which can pin enemy forces in place while your storms go to town. Sounds like the problem is you can't handle infestor play yet and have translated that into they're too strong. They're not, you just need to use your units better.
I've explained, repeatedly now, why fungal does more damage than storm. Please come up with a response better than, "lol no."
80 damage compared to 47 against armored. Easy to figure out, even taking into account fungals slighly larger radius Storm will do more damage overall even if it hits 1 or 2 less units. You can easily use forcefield to prevent retreats and force enemy armies to take the full damage. I think you're just learning Protoss at the moment, there are really excellent ways to use HTs, you'll find out as you improve.
On September 09 2011 23:23 Xequecal wrote:Claiming fungal DPS is terrible is just laughable, you're making yourself look stupid.
Storm does more DPS than fungal, fact. Yet you're trying to make it appear worse. Your bias is really clouding your argument. High Templar are a strong counter to Infestors, Zerg have no counter to Stalker/Colossus play after this change goes through. All this change means is that the matchup is going to swing over in favour of Protoss by a huge amount, just like early in the year.
I really can't understand all the zerg tears. Not like you guys seriously used NP to be able to compete with the protoss ball either. Fungal/roach still kill stalkers oh so easy and broodlords roflstomp everything in the ground. That's all zergs did and they still will.
The zerg deathball has been better than protoss since zergs realized infestors are pretty damn good (that was when they buffed it, which wasn't really needed). And if your micro fails hard you can remax in less than a minute via larva stockpiled. With roach/corruptor, even infestors ready to fungal.
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
I agree - then again, the upgrade cost for terran is generally pretty screwed up and random. I mean, 100/100 for stim is ridiculously underpriced. People would probably even get it for 200/200 (this is what charge costs) and more . 150/150 for a not so overwhelming damage upgrade does seem pretty meh in comparison - I like that Blizz tries to change the luck-based hellion wars in TvT, but this change really reduces the viability of the upgrade....making it cheaper would probably be a good idea.
On August 26 2011 00:26 SaJa wrote: Nothing for carrier ? Ok nvm ~~
don't beat the dead horse - let the poor carriers rest in peace
Don't forget 50/50 concussive shells.
Best value for minerals and gas in the whole game.
they may as well take NP out of the game now, who would use it over fungal if you cant do it on massive units? what would you want to neural? a stalker?
The only thing i can think of where it would still be preferable to neural would be roach infestor vs stalker/immortal (neural immortals)
I just want to give my point of view on the neural change...
I've seen many zerg state that now NP will never get researched. In fact, I think this is wrong since now, with the new patch, we will probably see a lot more immortals that are not massive (remember that range buff on roaches....the same will happend).
also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine. This way, early game terran would be nerfed since they would be afraid of dt's. Therefore, they would be obligated to make an engineering bay and some turrets which would set them on the same level economically vs toss. Also, they would need to save energy and don't fully spam it into mules in case their turrets are sufficient enough.
Against zerg, zerg wouldnt really need to adapt since they are already getting 3-4 queens as a standard on bases and they always get evo chamber for spores. This way, it would also help protoss to prevent mass expanding from zerg. Now, people would complain about mobile detection. Well, zerg already got a huge buff on the cost of their overseers so they can't complain there and for terran...well they never really use the raven except for the 1-1-1...It would be a good time to start using it
HTs are shit. Play Protoss for awhile, you will realize this. They are shit units. They're not as bad as Hydralisks but it's pretty close. Yes I know they are used in PvT but the fact that you're forced to use them is a big reason why Terran dominates Protoss so hard. They move slow as hell, are expensive, have an effective build time of over a minute and a half before they can do bloody anything, and are hilariously easy to counter.
Just confirms my suspicion that you have no idea what you are talking about. HT - the spellcaster with two fucking decent spells and when it runs out of energy turns into a roflstomping mega beast.
On September 09 2011 23:37 Zahki wrote: Oh geez, I dunno what to say. Get better? High Templar are fantastic units against Zerg, storm can rip Roach armies to shreds, we all know Feedback kills infestors with ease and they can merge to form Archons, which do amazing damage to all Zerg units. They're slow and require a bit of care and micro, but HTs are really excellent casters and mesh well with Sentries which can pin enemy forces in place while your storms go to town. Sounds like the problem is you can't handle infestor play yet and have translated that into they're too strong. They're not, you just need to use your units better.
Lol, storm against roaches? Storm is useless against roaches. Completely and utterly. It takes three storms to kill a roach if they never move. It takes FIVE if they burrow. Roaches against HTs is so lopsided it's hilarious. They can just attack, force you to storm, then pull back and burrow to heal and now your HTs have no energy. What are you going to do, FF to trap them? Oh right they can go under that and they move faster than HTs even while burrowed so your AE unit can't even keep up if you want to try and chase them.
Ok yeah you can merge them to archons but I never said archons were bad. HTs are bad, archons aren't.
Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that.
80 damage compared to 47 against armored. Easy to figure out, even taking into account fungals slighly larger radius Storm will do more damage overall even if it hits 1 or 2 less units. You can easily use forcefield to prevent retreats and force enemy armies to take the full damage. I think you're just learning Protoss at the moment, there are really excellent ways to use HTs, you'll find out as you improve.
Fungal has an AoE that's 78% larger than that of storm. That's not "slightly larger." That's a whole lot larger. It does 58.75% of the damage while hitting 178% of the area. This fact ALONE suggests it does more damage (47 * 1.78 * 0.5875 = 83.66) even if the stormed units never move for some reason.
On September 09 2011 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that.
Maybe Infestors are too strong but Zerg has nothing else. If you watched ZvP in the last year you know this. Corruptors suck, Hydras suck, Roaches suck without Infestor support and Ultras... maybe they will be viable in this patch, can't say.
On September 09 2011 23:37 Zahki wrote: Oh geez, I dunno what to say. Get better? High Templar are fantastic units against Zerg, storm can rip Roach armies to shreds, we all know Feedback kills infestors with ease and they can merge to form Archons, which do amazing damage to all Zerg units. They're slow and require a bit of care and micro, but HTs are really excellent casters and mesh well with Sentries which can pin enemy forces in place while your storms go to town. Sounds like the problem is you can't handle infestor play yet and have translated that into they're too strong. They're not, you just need to use your units better.
Lol, storm against roaches? Storm is useless against roaches. Completely and utterly. It takes three storms to kill a roach if they never move. It takes FIVE if they burrow. Roaches against HTs is so lopsided it's hilarious. They can just attack, force you to storm, then pull back and burrow to heal and now your HTs have no energy. What are you going to do, FF to trap them? Oh right they can go under that and they move faster than HTs even while burrowed so your AE unit can't even keep up if you want to try and chase them.
Ok yeah you can merge them to archons but I never said archons were bad. HTs are bad, archons aren't.
Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that.
you know what's funny
roaches are called the counter to ht's (till broods/ultras, that's the only other counter)
when in reality, they don't counter high templars at all. they're just the only unit that doesnt get 1-2 shotted by storm so you HAVE to go roaches. which is why you used to see a lot of high templar immortal.
and storms are still good vs roaches. you make them sound useless, that's simply not true lol.
infestors are getting nerfed cool, w/e. I think neural should be revoked and infested terran should be nerfed though.
protosses are going to go back to "sup i can make stalker collossi and I can do it every game and win 90% of the time since there's no actual counter to collossi till brood/ultra." (if youre building corruptors to counter collossi, then you're losing the game.)
im not really sure why neural is in the game now though, i mean what's worth neuraling? tanks and immortals? is THAT even worth it? would a protoss even bother to blink a few stalkers forward to snipe an infestor neuraling an immortal? idk.
On September 09 2011 23:39 Salteador Neo wrote: broodlords roflstomp everything in the ground.
And if your micro fails hard you can remax in less than a minute via larva stockpiled.
The problem is not so much in the very late game as Zerg T3 units can deal with the protoss deathball yes, but to be able to support Ultra's/Broodlords/stockpile larva you need to get to that point first and thats the metagame change im not looking forward to.
This change opens a couple of funny timings for Protoss where they have 3/4 Collosus and Zerg can't have t3 units out at that time. Which (unless a full surround is possible) leaves zerg with no units to touch the collosi. No zerg wants to make corruptors against an even supply protoss army as you'll either loose all your corruptors before the collosi die, or your ground army melts leaving you with awesome compositions like 10 corruptors vs a protoss gateway army.
I personally used NP to secure my way into the late game, but with the patch ill be sweating in the midgame to survive in order to have a shot at taking the deathball out later with higher tech units.
On September 09 2011 23:34 Xequecal wrote: HTs are shit. Play Protoss for awhile, you will realize this. They are shit units. They're not as bad as Hydralisks but it's pretty close. Yes I know they are used in PvT but the fact that you're forced to use them is a big reason why Terran dominates Protoss so hard. They move slow as hell, are expensive, have an effective build time of over a minute and a half before they can do bloody anything, and are hilariously easy to counter.
Oh geez, I dunno what to say. Get better? High Templar are fantastic units against Zerg, storm can rip Roach armies to shreds, we all know Feedback kills infestors with ease and they can merge to form Archons, which do amazing damage to all Zerg units. They're slow and require a bit of care and micro, but HTs are really excellent casters and mesh well with Sentries which can pin enemy forces in place while your storms go to town. Sounds like the problem is you can't handle infestor play yet and have translated that into they're too strong. They're not, you just need to use your units better.
I've explained, repeatedly now, why fungal does more damage than storm. Please come up with a response better than, "lol no."
80 damage compared to 47 against armored. Easy to figure out, even taking into account fungals slighly larger radius Storm will do more damage overall even if it hits 1 or 2 less units. You can easily use forcefield to prevent retreats and force enemy armies to take the full damage. I think you're just learning Protoss at the moment, there are really excellent ways to use HTs, you'll find out as you improve.
You do not know what you are talking about. Learn maths first, then post comments including maths, otherwise you just sound stupid to anyone who knows how to count.
The area difference means that12.56/7.06 = 1.78 times more units are affected. If you want to normalise the total damage, it is 80 * x for storm vs 47 * 1.78 * x = 83.66 * x for fungal. That means it already does more total damage against armoured units than storm does. It does not take into account the stun mechanic and the fact that storm can be partially avoided if you move your units, effectively dealing much less than 80 dmg per unit.
The fact is that PvZ is dominated by Z because of Infestor and Blizzard and most of the rest of the SC2 scene seems to agree that it is too strong, but you just want to QQ.
On September 09 2011 23:43 pure_protoss wrote: also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine. This way, early game terran would be nerfed since they would be afraid of dt's. Therefore, they would be obligated to make an engineering bay and some turrets which would set them on the same level economically vs toss. Also, they would need to save energy and don't fully spam it into mules in case their turrets are sufficient enough
This is incredibly broken. Just think about PvP for a second. It takes 105 seconds to get a robotics facility + observer, compared to 100 for a dark shrine. You could do 1 gate core shrine and still easily beat a 4 gate with DTs that would be out before you get hit, and your DTs would also be out before observer against any robo opening that's safe against a 4 gate. Fast DTs would be the ONLY tech option in Protoss mirror.
On September 09 2011 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that.
Maybe Infestors are too strong but Zerg has nothing else. If you watched ZvP in the last year you know this. Corruptors suck, Hydras suck, Roaches suck without Infestor support and Ultras... maybe they will be viable in this patch, can't say.
Infested T is still really strong vs P macro style, bling drops are really good, corrupters are pretty good. You can still FG blink stalkers and colossus in place.
PvZ is currently a lot like ZvP was roach/hydra which had a tiny window to do anything. This patch more than anything put infestors in the support role and stops Zerg from winning unless P hits a timing window and can macro vs zerg.
All you zerg complaining about this nerf have it wrong. You forget about banelings. Baneling drops crush robo play. You will see this more often now. I think this diversifies PVZ play greatyl and creates more skill-based play. You will see two mid-game routes:
1) Zerg goes ling/bling/infestor. Then toss needs to go charge / archon. bling does nothing to archon. Toss needs to have robo tech switch ready to turn on ASAP as zerg will start to make roaches. 2) Zerg goes roach/corruptor. Then toss goes heavy robo with col and immo. Get col to force corrupters, then heavy immo.
This is my view of the change. So now it's more fair and strategic. You have to depend on scouting to prepare the correct tech paths. Before, with NP, toss would just get neuraled any tech route and auto-loss against a good zerg.
On September 10 2011 00:02 Rigorous wrote: All you zerg complaining about this nerf have it wrong. You forget about banelings. Baneling drops crush robo play. You will see this more often now. I think this diversifies PVZ play greatyl and creates more skill-based play. You will see two mid-game routes:
1) Zerg goes ling/bling/infestor. Then toss needs to go charge / archon. bling does nothing to archon. Toss needs to have robo tech switch ready to turn on ASAP as zerg will start to make roaches. 2) Zerg goes roach/corruptor. Then toss goes heavy robo with col and immo. Get col to force corrupters, then heavy immo.
This is my view of the change. So now it's more fair and strategic. You have to depend on scouting to prepare the correct tech paths. Before, with NP, toss would just get neuraled any tech route and auto-loss against a good zerg.
Void rays deal with banelings in overlords pretty well. Infestors are still going to be the go-to unit, for their high DPS and providing anti-air units to an army that usually does not possess it. It's just going to be less lopsided.
On September 09 2011 23:39 Salteador Neo wrote: broodlords roflstomp everything in the ground.
And if your micro fails hard you can remax in less than a minute via larva stockpiled.
The problem is not so much in the very late game as Zerg T3 units can deal with the protoss deathball yes, but to be able to support Ultra's/Broodlords/stockpile larva you need to get to that point first and thats the metagame change im not looking forward to.
This change opens a couple of funny timings for Protoss where they have 3/4 Collosus and Zerg can't have t3 units out at that time. Which (unless a full surround is possible) leaves zerg with no units to touch the collosi. No zerg wants to make corruptors against an even supply protoss army as you'll either loose all your corruptors before the collosi die, or your ground army melts leaving you with awesome compositions like 10 corruptors vs a protoss gateway army.
I personally used NP to secure my way into the late game, but with the patch ill be sweating in the midgame to survive in order to have a shot at taking the deathball out later with higher tech units.
Well I understand you like the current metagame as Zerg because you like to win games It's pretty much: 1 base protoss is unplayable, so Zerg can take the third as an answer to the FE with no risk and drone up hardcore, then keep trading evenly thanks to infestors all game while having map control and denying the third to the P.
Honestly if there's no map presence during the game, protoss can't take expos AND it has no real harrassment capabilities other than DTs... The protoss ball of units must be stronger to have a game. Otherwise it's just starvation.
I don't think it will break ZvP, but I think it's going a bit overboard to nerf two abilities at once, especially considering that Protoss hasn't been struggling for nearly as long as Zerg was and the fact that they aren't touching the Ghost.
I mean come on, Zerg play today in ZvP is way evolved from how it was 5 months ago. Can you say the same about Protoss play?
This infestor change is going to make playing against deathballs really hard again. Yes there are a lot o other viable options like baneling drops, ultra/baneling/infestor, standard roach/corruptor armies but most of these builds require that zerg does no big mistakes and protoss makes some positional mistake at least. But all of this was before ultra time decrease and fungal buff. I'm not comfortable with these changes to say the least but lets see how we can adopt these changes.
On September 10 2011 00:13 hugman wrote: I don't think it will break ZvP, but I think it's going a bit overboard to nerf two abilities at once, especially considering that Protoss hasn't been struggling for nearly as long as Zerg was and the fact that they aren't touching the Ghost.
I mean come on, Zerg play today in ZvP is way evolved from how it was 5 months ago. Can you say the same about Protoss play?
Two things to take into account, Zerg had a lot of help "evolving". You could even say that their path was guided by an intelligent creator. P early game was nerfed to help PvP, this means Z can play more greedily. P late game was nerfed with the infestor buff. Zergs new style isn't because they're more innovative, its because they were given more tools.
On top of that, PvZ has changed with our new tools. You see a lot more HT play (you never used to HT vZ) to both counter Infestors and utilize new Archons.
ZvP will be harder but managable, but honestly ZvT how on earth are you going to beat early thor helion pushes without stocking roaches for ages beforehand, and how are you going to beat ghost mech in the late game, its already nearly impossible, not being able to NP the thors will make it even harder.
On September 10 2011 00:23 Iksf wrote: ZvP will be harder but managable, but honestly ZvT how on earth are you going to beat early thor helion pushes without stocking roaches for ages beforehand, and how are you going to beat ghost mech in the late game, its already nearly impossible, not being able to NP the thors will make it even harder.
Thor rushes are underutilized in all match ups, I'm really scared of them becoming more standard because of how much potential the unit has. That said, the fact that its not a standard push means responses haven't been as explored in depth. There could be a timing that kills it before it comes, hopefully.
On September 09 2011 22:48 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units.
I doubt most people will even research Neural Parasite if it gets nerfed like this. Maybe against mass Immortal, but not much else. Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to. The reason PvZ is hard right now is not because of Fungal doing 30% more dmg to armored, it's Zerg play having evolved while Protoss play remained the same. People used to Roach all-in against FFE because they felt too behind, now Protoss feels behind. People used to lose their 3rds to Stargate play, now that play rarely gets Protoss ahead.
Zerg was struggling for such a long time, much longer than Protoss, I think a huge nerf like this is not justified. Almost everything Zerg has sucks against Colossus, which we saw for almost a year.
On September 09 2011 22:48 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units.
I doubt most people will even research Neural Parasite if it gets nerfed like this. Maybe against mass Immortal, but not much else. Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to. The reason PvZ is hard right now is not because of Fungal doing 30% more dmg to armored, it's Zerg play having evolved while Protoss play remained the same. People used to Roach all-in against FFE because they felt too behind, now Protoss feels behind. People used to lose their 3rds to Stargate play, now that play rarely gets Protoss ahead.
Zerg was struggling for such a long time, much longer than Protoss, I think a huge nerf like this is not justified. Almost everything Zerg has sucks against Colossus, which we saw for almost a year.
keep in mind it's been trending more and more heavily towards Z since May.
Zerg as a race. Look at the ZvT graph. Anyway.. we'll see how this shakes out. Even if ZvP becomes fine I don't think it's a good type of nerf (making the ability useless) and the balance in the matchup will still be so precarious. Everything hinges on the Infestor, it's not a well designed matchup atm.
On September 09 2011 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that.
Maybe Infestors are too strong but Zerg has nothing else. If you watched ZvP in the last year you know this. Corruptors suck, Hydras suck, Roaches suck without Infestor support and Ultras... maybe they will be viable in this patch, can't say.
You have no idea what you're talking about... Coca beat Naniwa on Shakuras Plateau with very little (if any) Infestor usage, and opting to go for the old-school Roach Hydra Corrupter mix.
I disagree with your thinking that it'll go back to FF colo battles because to be honest Baneling drops are still rediculis's effective just watch cocca from the last mlg.
But god damm. NP not hitting massives anymore? that's probably the biggest game changer they've done sense beta if it goes though.
On September 09 2011 23:44 Xequecal wrote:Infestors are absolutely too strong. I've got plenty of evidence on my side. You have none. Blizzard apparently thinks they're too strong, that's a big one. Also Zerg is generally dominating Protoss in GSL via infestor usage pretty much exactly how I've laid it out, there's also that.
Maybe Infestors are too strong but Zerg has nothing else. If you watched ZvP in the last year you know this. Corruptors suck, Hydras suck, Roaches suck without Infestor support and Ultras... maybe they will be viable in this patch, can't say.
You have no idea what you're talking about... Coca beat Naniwa on Shakuras Plateau with very little (if any) Infestor usage, and opting to go for the old-school Roach Hydra Corrupter mix.
Oh no, you saw one game where it worked so my point is moot. Naniwa invested a ton in stargate stuff that never did anything, he let CoCa get away with a super greedy 3rd that he could've punished, he got TC + started blink when he wasn't safe to do so = more wasted resources, he got his 3rd Colossus sniped as it spawned etc. He did tons of mistakes, that doesn't make the composition CoCa had good against a max Protoss.
Also Nani in his mind would have been compensating for the fact infestors could enter play at any time, not having to worry about them at all would let him hard counter CoCa better
On September 09 2011 22:48 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:That's exactly the point... A single unit is basically able to counter everything a Protoss does and that is the inherent problem. It Neural will still find uses... Believe me. Fungal growth is still a very powerful spell even with a nerf. You can use neural parasite to control Void Rays, Tanks, Templar, Ghosts, Immortals... All very powerful and key units, but ones that are not nearly as expensive both in gas and time as those meaty massive units.
I doubt most people will even research Neural Parasite if it gets nerfed like this. Maybe against mass Immortal, but not much else. Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to. The reason PvZ is hard right now is not because of Fungal doing 30% more dmg to armored, it's Zerg play having evolved while Protoss play remained the same. People used to Roach all-in against FFE because they felt too behind, now Protoss feels behind. People used to lose their 3rds to Stargate play, now that play rarely gets Protoss ahead.
Zerg was struggling for such a long time, much longer than Protoss, I think a huge nerf like this is not justified. Almost everything Zerg has sucks against Colossus, which we saw for almost a year.
keep in mind it's been trending more and more heavily towards Z since May.
Zerg as a race. Look at the ZvT graph. Anyway.. we'll see how this shakes out. Even if ZvP becomes fine I don't think it's a good type of nerf (making the ability useless) and the balance in the matchup will still be so precarious. Everything hinges on the Infestor, it's not a well designed matchup atm.
ZvT has more or less been evening out since April. PvT has not. Z still has options like baneling drops, timing attacks, the ultra buff (yes I know the unit is not great but it has its uses, especially with what, a 25% decrease in build time?). Just have to see how it plays out like you said before.
On September 09 2011 22:59 hugman wrote: Maybe Protoss players should try to evolve the metagame more just like Zergs were forced to.
For the 1000th time, very little of the "new ZvP meta" is because Zergs did anything. It comes from balance changes. Zergs aren't smarter than protoss, they got help.
If Zergs can't neural huge units, would anyone actually opt to neural any non-massive units instead of just fungaling? I would imagine in some situations that taking an HT, ghost, banshee, overseer or raven might be helpful, but it almost invalidates the whole point of the spell. Probably 90%+ of the pro games I see, neural is used only against massive units. Will be interesting to see how things evolve if it goes through.
The only time I've seen neural "abused", so to speak, was when a Protoss player didn't punish the Zerg for expanding and massing 8-10 Infestors. Massing that many, with enough magic to be able to actually neural, forces you to be a bit defensive.
Oh well, we'll see what happens and trust that Blizzard and the pros know what they're doing!
The only time I've seen neural "abused", so to speak, was when a Protoss player didn't punish the Zerg for expanding and massing 8-10 Infestors. Massing that many, with enough magic to be able to actually neural, forces you to be a bit defensive
massing 8 infestors with enough magic? if you get promoted to silver your allowed to talk here again
I find it incredibly amusing that TvP is a broken matchup, and Blizzard's reaction is to nerf Zerg.
Honestly there are options in ZvP other than infestor (neural isn't the be-all end-all strategy). The real metagame shift we're going to see because of the NP nerf is going to be ZvT, where every terran is going to go 2factory Hellions into mass thor/tank/hellion that hits before BLs.
The infestor has 3 spells which are very useful depending on game situation, so you could never be wrong with going mass infestors. anti air, support dps, energy dump -> IT anti mass units, anti cloak, support dps -> fungal anti T3 units -> NP
I thought they would make massive immun to the snare (NOT the dmg), but NP change is a surprise.
I don't want to blance-theorycraft, time and the pros will tell. Think about the thor energy change, that was removed pretty fast.
On September 09 2011 23:43 pure_protoss wrote: also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine.
Against zerg, zerg wouldnt really need to adapt since they are already getting 3-4 queens as a standard on bases and they always get evo chamber for spores. This way, it would also help protoss to prevent mass expanding from zerg. Now, people would complain about mobile detection. Well, zerg already got a huge buff on the cost of their overseers so they can't complain there
Actually it will make a huge difference for zerg since on crossmap spawns on larger maps they will have to blindly make evo chambers and spores which will hinder droning, delay expanding and significantly hurt zerg economy. If you've watched pro matches you have probably seen how (even with the current state) every DT rush is just narrowly defended if it's defended at all.
On September 10 2011 01:02 Coopa826 wrote: LOL at the graphs ZvP 52%-48% totally broken ... nerf NP NOW!! we cant allow zerg to be as good as the other races. FIX THAT IMMEDIATLY!!!!
Do you not realize the part where it's trended completely to Z since the graph ended and PvZ is at like...35% in Korea at the highest levels right now? Or maybe you're just here to troll.
Although the change negatively affects ZvP (I feel like this is to a) encourage Ultra use and b) encourage mothership use (?!)), I'm really concerned about ZvT.
ZvT is already a tough match up now vs. Terran mech. BFH + slow pushing tank line + 3-4 thors wrecks almost everything Zerg has. Without NP being able to take Thors (who do bonus damage vs. armored), I honestly don't know what to do against a mid-game thor/tank/BFH/SCV push. How is it not an auto-win??
On September 09 2011 23:43 pure_protoss wrote: also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine. This way, early game terran would be nerfed since they would be afraid of dt's. Therefore, they would be obligated to make an engineering bay and some turrets which would set them on the same level economically vs toss. Also, they would need to save energy and don't fully spam it into mules in case their turrets are sufficient enough
This is incredibly broken. Just think about PvP for a second. It takes 105 seconds to get a robotics facility + observer, compared to 100 for a dark shrine. You could do 1 gate core shrine and still easily beat a 4 gate with DTs that would be out before you get hit, and your DTs would also be out before observer against any robo opening that's safe against a 4 gate. Fast DTs would be the ONLY tech option in Protoss mirror.
well...in fact it would be great because it would break the 4 gate meta game that would disappear (however it would still be a reasonable build against anything else than dt's). Beside that, if the observer was not able to get out in time, we would see a lot more forge play which also means more fast expand play that would be insanely refreshing in PvP. Also, since dt shrine does not require a twilight in this case, we could simply nerf the build time of the DS by 20 seconds lets say and then an observer would still get out in time and we would still be able to force engineering bay and evo chamber in both pvt and pvz!
Infestors can't NP massive units??? Well hell, what other units would an infestor WANT to NP? Sure, maybe seige tank and void ray, but now what does Zerg do about Colossi, Archons, Thors??? Very questionable. We'll have to see how this plays out.
On September 09 2011 23:43 pure_protoss wrote: also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine.
Against zerg, zerg wouldnt really need to adapt since they are already getting 3-4 queens as a standard on bases and they always get evo chamber for spores. This way, it would also help protoss to prevent mass expanding from zerg. Now, people would complain about mobile detection. Well, zerg already got a huge buff on the cost of their overseers so they can't complain there
Actually it will make a huge difference for zerg since on crossmap spawns on larger maps they will have to blindly make evo chambers and spores which will hinder droning, delay expanding and significantly hurt zerg economy. If you've watched pro matches you have probably seen how (even with the current state) every DT rush is just narrowly defended if it's defended at all.
well this is exactly my point, right now I believe the problem of zerg is not the infestors and stuff... yes infestors are too strong however I believe this is only because zerg can bank so much ressources and then spend it on 20 infestors way too easily. The problem with zerg is that you can expand way too easily and defend it way too easily. Crippling the droning would also be a good thing since droning is way too easy and fast as it is right now. And even then, it would not be that crippled since you would need only what? let's say 5 drones to defend your bases (1 in evo (that is generally already made prior to the patch) and 4 in 4 spore crawlers (2 at each base)).
On September 10 2011 02:14 TheTurk wrote: Infestors can't NP massive units??? Well hell, what other units would an infestor WANT to NP? Sure, maybe seige tank and void ray, but now what does Zerg do about Colossi, Archons, Thors??? Very questionable. We'll have to see how this plays out.
Templars, Ghosts, Raven. I think David Kim wants NP to have the same power as Hunter Seeker missile.
This is so absurd- Zerg already only has one offensive caster, as opposed to the two of the other race, and it's getting nerfed into oblivion.
Even the slightest bit of HT or ghost control can completely destroy all the energy on an infestor ball- it's not even remotely hard. The only reason we're getting nerfed so hard is because so many idiot Terran/Protoss's keep stubbornly going bio-balls or gateway/colossus forces instead of investing a small amount of resources into the tech that can hardcounter infestors. We're getting nerfed because they're too stupid to use their hard counter. This would be like banelings getting nerfed because Terrans only go mass marine versus them.
I don't get blizzard -__- Hellions are clearly OP, it got a very small nerf. Infestor is on the border of OPnes, NERF NP TO OBLIVION QUICK!!! Also, I don't get what we are suppose to NP now, maybe we'll have to make like 30 infestors to NP all the blink stalker army of the toss?
On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote: What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.-
That is the important point.
Lets see what the HT does: it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more.
Ghost: cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless.
Infestor: It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent.
Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines. Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine.
On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote: What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.-
That is the important point.
Lets see what the HT does: it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more.
Ghost: cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless.
Infestor: It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent.
Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines. Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine.
but its not like they are removing the energy upgrade for infestors, they are removing one of its skills entirely.
Ok, before all the protoss keep trying to compare the HT nerf to infestors/ghosts. The reason HT lost amulets was due to warp gate mechanic. Assuming no current production it takes the following amount of time before a caster has 75 energy.
Infestor: 50s - production time Ghost: 40s - production time High Templar - 5s (warp in time) + (25/0.5625) = 5s+44.4s = 49.4s
So from the moment you start building a caster to the moment it has 75 energy it is almost the same time (ghosts are slightly faster - maybe to compensate for tech lab required, dunno)
Also note that most zerg agree that infestors needed some nerfs but zerg needs some form of AA buff.
And just for the fun of it for the poster above me (by the time I wrote this 2 above me).
Let's see what a collosus does:
Huge range Sees up clifs Moves up and down clifs Scales awesome with upgrades
and it's main disadvantage is that it forces AA units from the enemy.
On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote: What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.-
That is the important point.
Lets see what the HT does: it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more.
Ghost: cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless.
Infestor: It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent.
Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines. Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine.
The main difference between the Protoss and Zerg nerfs are that ZERG HAVE NOTHING ELSE. Infestors are and hopefully will remain the keystone to ZvP play. True, HTs are pretty useless when they first come out. Good thing that Protoss are often the attackers, because you can move out when you have the energy. No matter what any idiot Protoss players say, yes, it is EASY to feedback infestors.
Infestors are not this magical unit that we can keep at the .5 range variable where we can fungal your units and not get hit back. They're big, slow, clunky, and there's often lots of them. They are easy to feedback.
Storm is not nearly as useless as Protoss players like to complain. Storm completely negates zerglings and muta balls, for the most part. They also do heavy, heavy damage to hydras and fare well versus Roaches, the only unit we can get against HTs without autolosing.
And I WISH I could combine two low-energy infestors into a massive, psionic tank that does heavy AOE damage versus biological (AKA Zerg) And now we can't even neural these Archons.
Yes, infestor drops are incredibly powerful. They're also about 400/600 loaded into one overlord. A bigger problem is the much cheaper and more versatile marine drop. Complain about those. If you guys loaded your HTs into warp prisms and dropped our expos, we would lose all of our drones immediately. And 4 HTs cost less than 4 infestors. Then you can morph into archons or something, I dunno.
Point is, HTs are fine and infestors may be slightly overpowered, but they're the glue holding ZvP together for Zerg. We need them.
On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote: What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.-
That is the important point.
Lets see what the HT does: it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more.
Ghost: cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless.
Infestor: It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent.
Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines. Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine.
I disagree with this analysis. Infestor fungal nerf is necessary, I'll grant that. I'm personally worried about the neural parasite. Against the Protoss death ball, the NP was the only manageable solution short of going corruptors (which is feasible, as Zerg's are probably going Broodlords too). However the window for a roach infestor army to roach infestor corruptor brood lord is a large one, and protoss can easily have the mid game stalker collosi composition to just decimate this phase. Hydras have already been proven ineffective against the composition, and just suck gas from the other units.
My big issue is the comparison of casters across the board. Infestors play a different role in the game phase. Ghosts and HT's are never an exclusive mid game transition. Infestors, have evolved into a crucial role in the Zerg midgame that really has little to replace it. HTs warp in with 1 spell that can nullify an Infestor, and subsquently has the ability to morph onto an archon which the infestor just lost a lot of usefullness against. Ghosts start off with a snipe, and can have the energy upgrade to also nullify the usefulness of an infestor with EMPs.
tldr: I'm unwilling to concede any caster v caster commentary in a balance discussion as they're all independent units with completely different roles. Like comparing zealot to marine to zergling. They all play differently.
On September 10 2011 02:51 nShade wrote: What does it take fora a zerg, to admit that infestors really are too good? -.-
That is the important point.
Lets see what the HT does: it gets warped in and can do nothing but dealing single damage to an energy unit - if it has energy. After sometime it can storm. A HT without energy can be morphed into an archon or simply die because it can't do anything more.
Ghost: cloak, snipe and EMP are very good abilitys but nuke? For what do you need nukes? As long as your opponent isn't doing sth completly wrong nukes are more or less useless.
Infestor: It can burrow and move while burrowed, which you can compare to cloak. It can take out massive groups of small (and medium) hp units. It can negate movement of units. Infested terrans of two infestor can take out a whole fucking expansion in no time - not only probes or scvs but even the base. IT have insane dps. And with NP Infestor can even take out much stronger units and make them attack your opponent.
Now one of these powerful abilities gets nerfed (the fungal change is no real nerf to me, maybe a little but hell its just like 5 hp...) -> zerg whines. Come on, to remove HTs amulett was a much bigger change and protoss dealt with it quite fine.
I disagree with this analysis. Infestor fungal nerf is necessary, I'll grant that. I'm personally worried about the neural parasite. Against the Protoss death ball, the NP was the only manageable solution short of going corruptors (which is feasible, as Zerg's are probably going Broodlords too). However the window for a roach infestor army to roach infestor corruptor brood lord is a large one, and protoss can easily have the mid game stalker collosi composition to just decimate this phase. Hydras have already been proven ineffective against the composition, and just suck gas from the other units.
My big issue is the comparison of casters across the board. Infestors play a different role in the game phase. Ghosts and HT's are never an exclusive mid game transition. Infestors, have evolved into a crucial role in the Zerg midgame that really has little to replace it. HTs warp in with 1 spell that can nullify an Infestor, and subsquently has the ability to morph onto an archon which the infestor just lost a lot of usefullness against. Ghosts start off with a snipe, and can have the energy upgrade to also nullify the usefulness of an infestor with EMPs.
tldr: I'm unwilling to concede any caster v caster commentary in a balance discussion as they're all independent units with completely different roles. Like comparing zealot to marine to zergling. They all play differently.
pretty much, and thats why people stay on "roach tech" so long. They've been punished for gas hogging with hydras and other mid tier units that get them roflstomped.
Zerg is a gimmick race, that gimmick being needing infestors in mass to survive.
The NP nerf doesn't make too much sense because it takes away the main purpose of the spell. I'd rather have infested terrans be nerfed (from 8 damage to 6 damage) instead.
P > Z (The winrates are a bit better for zerg now, but the neural + fungal nerf in combination with the protoss buffs should skew the MU slightly into P's favor) T > Z (ultralisk build time might help Z, but I think it's not enough) T > P (Immortal range upgrade might help a bit, but not that much I think)
The NP nerf makes no sense. It poses the risk of unhinging a delicate match up. NP is crucial in defending Zealot Archon in a sensible manner. I.e. not 5 base zerg to 2 base toss.
The real thing they should be looking at is the infested terran used against protoss expansions. They are missing the mark. Mech was used against zerg some 6 months ago with decent success. it was only when NP started being used against thors did the build go out of style.
The new Neural change is going to completely change the ZvT and ZvP games. Being able to neural parasite thors and use them against the terran when they are meching is absolutely crucial.
In ZvP, you can no longer neural colosi, which seems to be a nerf to zerg to improve the quality of ZvP matches, but, ZvT is already in favor of Terran, and this makes the matchup even worse for zerg. Blizzard may feel comfortabke nerfing Zerg in ZvT because of the Blue Flame nerf and Barracks build time increase (delaying 2rax). It'll be interesting to see if this goes through, but I highly doubt it.
On August 26 2011 08:07 Cryptos wrote: lol of course terran got nerfed again because protoss and zerg are to lazy to explore new builds
LOL ofcourse you play terran & like to pretend you would be better than others if only X =O
I'll be willing to bet I know which race 90% of the racists in here play ;-)
Everyone is like bufukinhu my race needs a buff, bla bla bla your race needs a nerf. How about some perspective, analysis and a little less "I want to win more without practising BTW all of you guys suck balls". If all you care about is winning, switch to the race you think is OP. Yeah right then if you lost it would be your fault and we cannot have that. Can we?
In ZvP, fungal still works incredibly well vs deathballs. Void rays are still targets for neural. Void rays do incredible damage to colossus.
Or just continue to fungal the voids while sack corrupters or baneling bombs in order to take out colossus. In Korean PvZ I have not seen a lot of neural, yet infestors still reign supreme in the matchup. Throw out 16 infested terrans on an expo or 4x fungals and there are no more workers.
Jeez....infestors are still a great unit.
Also, as a last note. Against competent zerg players you cannot feedback infestors in any type of cost effective manner. Fungal, pull back, fungal pull back, fungal pull back. You may say blnk forward and snipe the infestors!
But that army has been pulled back to sit there babysitting infestors.
Then suddenly the HTs and sentries are dead and the rest of the army is still at half health! Charge in roaches, blings, lings! Whichever you prefer. They all work.
well...in fact it would be great because it would break the 4 gate meta game that would disappear (however it would still be a reasonable build against anything else than dt's). Beside that, if the observer was not able to get out in time, we would see a lot more forge play which also means more fast expand play that would be insanely refreshing in PvP. Also, since dt shrine does not require a twilight in this case, we could simply nerf the build time of the DS by 20 seconds lets say and then an observer would still get out in time and we would still be able to force engineering bay and evo chamber in both pvt and pvz!
Seriously? *facepalm* Colossi should come out of gateway without robo and instantly with 9 range ... that would break the 4gate as well .
well...in fact it would be great because it would break the 4 gate meta game that would disappear (however it would still be a reasonable build against anything else than dt's). Beside that, if the observer was not able to get out in time, we would see a lot more forge play which also means more fast expand play that would be insanely refreshing in PvP. Also, since dt shrine does not require a twilight in this case, we could simply nerf the build time of the DS by 20 seconds lets say and then an observer would still get out in time and we would still be able to force engineering bay and evo chamber in both pvt and pvz!
Seriously? *facepalm* Colossi should come out of gateway without robo and instantly with 9 range ... that would break the 4gate as well .
well im facepalming against your comment loll! you must be a low league player for trolling against me like that...I am just proposing something new that would change the metagame without being insanely op and you are flaming me for no reason!
In ZvP, fungal still works incredibly well vs deathballs. Void rays are still targets for neural. Void rays do incredible damage to colossus.
Or just continue to fungal the voids while sack corrupters or baneling bombs in order to take out colossus. In Korean PvZ I have not seen a lot of neural, yet infestors still reign supreme in the matchup. Throw out 16 infested terrans on an expo or 4x fungals and there are no more workers.
Jeez....infestors are still a great unit.
Also, as a last note. Against competent zerg players you cannot feedback infestors in any type of cost effective manner. Fungal, pull back, fungal pull back, fungal pull back. You may say blnk forward and snipe the infestors!
But that army has been pulled back to sit there babysitting infestors.
Then suddenly the HTs and sentries are dead and the rest of the army is still at half health! Charge in roaches, blings, lings! Whichever you prefer. They all work.
You only gave an example of an incompetent retarded protoss. Heres the otherway round .... a protossplayer who does not believe that 2 ht should counter 10 infestors and a decent zerg player.
Feedback x10 all infestors uselss in an instant. 1 storm all lings dead (srly you can run out of an storm with lings. the moment a ling leaves the aoe another one swarms in) ever played late game against a zerg army without infestors -> LOL
well im facepalming against your comment loll! you must be a low league player for trolling against me like that...I am just proposing something new that would change the metagame without being insanely op and you are flaming me for no reason!
No dude your DT thing does not work at all. example PvZ. Zerg can never get a third hatchery and has to plant all of his bases with at least 2 spores and 3 spines. Terrans have no real scouting ability until raven and thats too long. PvP would be retarded as fuck becuase its not even rock paper scissors anymore. its flipcoin
Every TvP would have ravens no matter what Every ZvP would be 0-2 in a bo3 Every PvP would be flipcoin
No matter what any idiot Protoss players say, yes, it is EASY to feedback infestors.
Infestors are not this magical unit that we can keep at the .5 range variable where we can fungal your units and not get hit back. They're big, slow, clunky, and there's often lots of them. They are easy to feedback.
, the only unit we can get against HTs without autolosing.
And I WISH I could combine two low-energy infestors into a massive, psionic tank that does heavy AOE damage versus biological (AKA Zerg) And now we can't even neural these Archons.
Then you can morph into archons or something, I dunno.
Point is, HTs are fine and infestors may be slightly overpowered, but they're the glue holding ZvP together for Zerg. We need them.[/QUOTE] Hts are slower; they are not easy to feedback (unless ur in the bronze league, and can't micro). A competent zerg can fungal, np, or drop infested terrans. You can burrow, ghosts can cloak, hts can morph into archons. Pretty sure roaches, broodlords, ultras, mutas (if you spread), nydus play, etc counter hts.
You guys have burrow, we don't (compensation for morphing). Neural nerf was unnecessary, but ht drops are terrible because you have to wait to storm. Infestors have 3 abilities +burrow, hts have 3, one morphs into an archon.
And for cost, its not heavy damage, its 37 with a fairly slow attack rate. You shouldn't be throwing zerglings, a tier one unit, at tier 3.5 archons.
You forget zerg are a macro race and units are slightly less efficient. A storm drop can never be as effective as an infested terran drop, as hts cant target buildings. The last part is correct, you don't know. We also have the ability to morph into archons because hts are almost useless vs anything in equal cost before they get enough energy for storm. You can move out of a storm, and zerglings are pretty efficient if they rund around the storm. If you lose all your zerglings to few storms, it's your fault; I 2v2 with zerg buddies all the time. Just split them, its not hard. Don't 1a, grab a third, moveshift a, repeat *2. You say we can ht drop with ease, but you don't realize infestors can start with enough energy for fungal. You can make 4 immediately. To do a storm drop, you have to scout an unprepared opponent and then wait 44.4 seconds for the hts to get energy.
On September 10 2011 04:10 Lasbike wrote: WHAT??! NP can't be used against Clossis & Archons & Thors ?
This is ridiculous -.-
To be honest, I don't care about what they did to NP i just wish they would call it what it is. They removed almost all its utility from the game, meaning it should simply be removed from the game.
Its now nothing more than a gimmicky victory cigar.
On September 10 2011 04:35 RobCorso wrote: No matter what any idiot Protoss players say, yes, it is EASY to feedback infestors.
Infestors are not this magical unit that we can keep at the .5 range variable where we can fungal your units and not get hit back. They're big, slow, clunky, and there's often lots of them. They are easy to feedback.
, the only unit we can get against HTs without autolosing.
And I WISH I could combine two low-energy infestors into a massive, psionic tank that does heavy AOE damage versus biological (AKA Zerg) And now we can't even neural these Archons.
Then you can morph into archons or something, I dunno.
Point is, HTs are fine and infestors may be slightly overpowered, but they're the glue holding ZvP together for Zerg. We need them.
Hts are slower; they are not easy to feedback (unless ur in the bronze league, and can't micro). A competent zerg can fungal, np, or drop infested terrans. You can burrow, ghosts can cloak, hts can morph into archons. Pretty sure roaches, broodlords, ultras, mutas (if you spread), nydus play, etc counter hts.
You guys have burrow, we don't (compensation for morphing). Neural nerf was unnecessary, but ht drops are terrible because you have to wait to storm. Infestors have 3 abilities +burrow, hts have 3, one morphs into an archon.
And for cost, its not heavy damage, its 37 with a fairly slow attack rate. You shouldn't be throwing zerglings, a tier one unit, at tier 3.5 archons.
You forget zerg are a macro race and units are slightly less efficient. A storm drop can never be as effective as an infested terran drop, as hts cant target buildings. The last part is correct, you don't know. We also have the ability to morph into archons because hts are almost useless vs anything in equal cost before they get enough energy for storm. You can move out of a storm, and zerglings are pretty efficient if they rund around the storm. If you lose all your zerglings to few storms, it's your fault; I 2v2 with zerg buddies all the time. Just split them, its not hard. Don't 1a, grab a third, moveshift a, repeat *2. You say we can ht drop with ease, but you don't realize infestors can start with enough energy for fungal. You can make 4 immediately. To do a storm drop, you have to scout an unprepared opponent and then wait 44.4 seconds for the hts to get energy.
k bro
kkk bro
Just get HTs versus infestors. You probably are the type of protoss that moves their whole army in one control group, which leaves all your HTs in a clumped ball behind your main army, then infestors unburrow and fungal them.
You say we can ht drop with ease, but you don't realize infestors can start with enough energy for fungal. You can make 4 immediately. To do a storm drop, you have to scout an unprepared opponent and then wait 44.4 seconds for the hts to get energy.
44.4s + 5s warp in time = 49.4s between starting to build an HT and having storm ready 50s - between starting to build an infestor and having fungal ready.
On September 10 2011 04:35 RobCorso wrote: No matter what any idiot Protoss players say, yes, it is EASY to feedback infestors.
Infestors are not this magical unit that we can keep at the .5 range variable where we can fungal your units and not get hit back. They're big, slow, clunky, and there's often lots of them. They are easy to feedback.
, the only unit we can get against HTs without autolosing.
And I WISH I could combine two low-energy infestors into a massive, psionic tank that does heavy AOE damage versus biological (AKA Zerg) And now we can't even neural these Archons.
Then you can morph into archons or something, I dunno.
Point is, HTs are fine and infestors may be slightly overpowered, but they're the glue holding ZvP together for Zerg. We need them.
Hts are slower; they are not easy to feedback (unless ur in the bronze league, and can't micro). A competent zerg can fungal, np, or drop infested terrans. You can burrow, ghosts can cloak, hts can morph into archons. Pretty sure roaches, broodlords, ultras, mutas (if you spread), nydus play, etc counter hts.
You guys have burrow, we don't (compensation for morphing). Neural nerf was unnecessary, but ht drops are terrible because you have to wait to storm. Infestors have 3 abilities +burrow, hts have 3, one morphs into an archon.
And for cost, its not heavy damage, its 37 with a fairly slow attack rate. You shouldn't be throwing zerglings, a tier one unit, at tier 3.5 archons.
You forget zerg are a macro race and units are slightly less efficient. A storm drop can never be as effective as an infested terran drop, as hts cant target buildings. The last part is correct, you don't know. We also have the ability to morph into archons because hts are almost useless vs anything in equal cost before they get enough energy for storm. You can move out of a storm, and zerglings are pretty efficient if they rund around the storm. If you lose all your zerglings to few storms, it's your fault; I 2v2 with zerg buddies all the time. Just split them, its not hard. Don't 1a, grab a third, moveshift a, repeat *2. You say we can ht drop with ease, but you don't realize infestors can start with enough energy for fungal. You can make 4 immediately. To do a storm drop, you have to scout an unprepared opponent and then wait 44.4 seconds for the hts to get energy.
k bro
kkk bro
Just get HTs versus infestors. You probably are the type of protoss that moves their whole army in one control group, which leaves all your HTs in a clumped ball behind your main army, then infestors unburrow and fungal them.
Then HURP DURP HTS UNDERPOWERED
Never listen to a Protoss about balancing.
You can have like 6 infestors before the first HT hits the field. And of course if Protoss rushes to tech he's vulnerable to mass roach allins. Herp derp.
The racism against Protoss is so BW. Never take seriously oppinions on balance from some kid who hates a race.
You can have like 6 infestors before the first HT hits the field. And of course if Protoss rushes to tech he's vulnerable to mass roach allins. Herp derp.
The racism against Protoss is so BW. Never take seriously oppinions on balance from some kid who hates a race.
Again, caster vs caster isn't exactly the right way to look at this. Sure, Zerg can have 6 infestors before Protoss has HT, but that's not the end of the game. Usually, when a toss finally gets around to HT (unless Zealot archon) it's a tier 3 tech switch after colossus (which are out with Infestors). Ie, HT in some progressions come out right when a Zerg could be transitioning to his tier 3 (and even then, it's usually before).
I don't look at Protoss and go, "Huh, you have a Colossus, where's my Ultra?" Same with Terran's Thors. The development towards each unit type (caster, tier 3 tank, etc.) is just vastly different for each race.
On September 10 2011 02:14 TheTurk wrote: Infestors can't NP massive units??? Well hell, what other units would an infestor WANT to NP? Sure, maybe seige tank and void ray, but now what does Zerg do about Colossi, Archons, Thors??? Very questionable. We'll have to see how this plays out.
Um, roaches beat all of those units. Lol @ acting like the infestor is useless now that you can't neural parasite a colossus, except no one even used to do that until very recently and still won, and no one in Korea ZvP does it but zergs are dominating protoss. Nowadays you just watch Destiny's stream, watch him turtle on three base behind 20 spinecrawlers, mass infestors and broodlords and neural parasite any big hitter capable of taking on that army. Morrow does the same exact thing.
Fungal growth is great against the so-called "stalker/colossi deathball", as are baneling drops, and broodlord + infestor is insanely strong. Being able to take over every high tech unit of your opponent, leaving fungaled stalkers against roaches and/or lings which they are cost-inefficient against without blink---while your own heavy hitters are also killing the stalkers---is ridiculous. If broodlord/infestor is done properly it's almost impossible to break with anything from mass stalkers to carrier. High templar are ridiculously slow and you would have to be an idiot to keep your infestors in range of feedback without broodlords sniping the templar immediately. Last time I checked most good players don't leave their infestors in the middle of the map to be feedbacked, the same way I wouldn't leave my colossi alone. You protect them because they are strong while protected but fragile. Neural parasite also made mech 100% worthless versus zerg.
So many zergs just keep having this mentality that every single nerf will absolutely destroy their race and that they're barely scraping by, and any little change will set them over the edge. It's completely ridiculous and you would think zergs would never win games without neural parasite.
The HSM is a buff for ravens against mutas. The whole point of HSM is to kills huge flocks of mutas when marines and thors weren't enough, just like irradiate in BW. It has the same range for a reason.
The infestor nerf makes no sense, since it doesn't kill anything any slower but massive units like VR and colossi and thors, which is stupid because it was buffed to deal with those kinds of deathballs in the first place. Stalker, gateway, bio, still dies in the same number of hits.
It may be because it takes one more hit to kill ghosts and vikings, but Terran with ghosts and vikings always owned Zerg Infestor/BL. It was only when Terran was caught by surprise or was behind more than 1 base would Infestor/BL actually win a game. Often times, Zerg only use it to close a game they've already won and gotten a 2 base advantage with.
I don't like the overseer change, i would have preferred overlord speed was lowered in cost instead.
So many zergs just keep having this mentality that every single nerf will absolutely destroy their race and that they're barely scraping by, and any little change will set them over the edge. It's completely ridiculous and you would think zergs would never win games without neural parasite.
They wouldn't... Most tournament ZvPs right now are dominated by Zerg's taking a super fast third and winning with mass hatch tech units after holding off P's 2 base timing. The few games Protoss survives, or doesn't do a FFE, and Zerg need NP and infestors or they die in late game against Protoss. We see it every time that Zerg either use infestors or baneling rain, or they don't, and lose.
Baneling rain is great, but is too susceptible to blink stalkers and VR (hm, exactly what deathballs consist of) and is prohibitively expensive (they are more gas heavy per supply than battlecruisers and ultralisks, and need infestor support).
It's annoying when so many Protoss say Zerg is OP or doing fine, but in reality the games right now in teh GSL and other tournaments are decided well before it's an issue. But when it does become an issue, it's very relevant.
On September 10 2011 06:23 Belial88 wrote: The HSM is a buff for ravens against mutas. The whole point of HSM is to kills huge flocks of mutas when marines and thors weren't enough, just like irradiate in BW. It has the same range for a reason.
The infestor nerf makes no sense, since it doesn't kill anything any slower but massive units like VR and colossi and thors, which is stupid because it was buffed to deal with those kinds of deathballs in the first place. Stalker, gateway, bio, still dies in the same number of hits.
It may be because it takes one more hit to kill ghosts and vikings, but Terran with ghosts and vikings always owned Zerg Infestor/BL. It was only when Terran was caught by surprise or was behind more than 1 base would Infestor/BL actually win a game. Often times, Zerg only use it to close a game they've already won and gotten a 2 base advantage with.
I don't like the overseer change, i would have preferred overlord speed was lowered in cost instead.
So many zergs just keep having this mentality that every single nerf will absolutely destroy their race and that they're barely scraping by, and any little change will set them over the edge. It's completely ridiculous and you would think zergs would never win games without neural parasite.
They wouldn't... Most tournament ZvPs right now are dominated by Zerg's taking a super fast third and winning with mass hatch tech units after holding off P's 2 base timing. The few games Protoss survives, or doesn't do a FFE, and Zerg need NP and infestors or they die in late game against Protoss. We see it every time that Zerg either use infestors or baneling rain, or they don't, and lose.
Baneling rain is great, but is too susceptible to blink stalkers and VR (hm, exactly what deathballs consist of) and is prohibitively expensive (they are more gas heavy per supply than battlecruisers and ultralisks, and need infestor support).
It's annoying when so many Protoss say Zerg is OP or doing fine, but in reality the games right now in teh GSL and other tournaments are decided well before it's an issue. But when it does become an issue, it's very relevant.
I have literally never seen a single ZvP game ever in the GSL that was decided by neural parasite in the late game. No one masses voidray anymore, it's just not very good, neural parasite still affects voidrays, and fungal still locks stalkers in place for the same amount of time for baneling drops to hit an ddeal damage. Prohibitively expensive? Sorry, since when was zerg supposed to be cost-efficient when it's the race that can be up a base and 70 to 45 workers in the mid-game without anything happening? You want to be cost-efficient with a much better econ as well? Baneling drops + infestors are pretty cost-equal in big engagements, what else do you want?
Also, please show me the extreme period of time where zerg was supposedly doing horrible against protoss even before the infestor buff. The way you hear people talks it's as if protoss was almost unbeatable late game for a year, except the stats don't back this up at all.
On September 09 2011 23:43 pure_protoss wrote: also, I think they should remove the need for a twilight council to make a dark shrine.
Against zerg, zerg wouldnt really need to adapt since they are already getting 3-4 queens as a standard on bases and they always get evo chamber for spores. This way, it would also help protoss to prevent mass expanding from zerg. Now, people would complain about mobile detection. Well, zerg already got a huge buff on the cost of their overseers so they can't complain there
Actually it will make a huge difference for zerg since on crossmap spawns on larger maps they will have to blindly make evo chambers and spores which will hinder droning, delay expanding and significantly hurt zerg economy. If you've watched pro matches you have probably seen how (even with the current state) every DT rush is just narrowly defended if it's defended at all.
well this is exactly my point, right now I believe the problem of zerg is not the infestors and stuff... yes infestors are too strong however I believe this is only because zerg can bank so much ressources and then spend it on 20 infestors way too easily. The problem with zerg is that you can expand way too easily and defend it way too easily. Crippling the droning would also be a good thing since droning is way too easy and fast as it is right now. And even then, it would not be that crippled since you would need only what? let's say 5 drones to defend your bases (1 in evo (that is generally already made prior to the patch) and 4 in 4 spore crawlers (2 at each base)).
You're missing the big picture. The main problem is that since those DTs can come so fast you must build those defences very early. And since you must do that so early you must cut everywhere - from drones to units. So you basically have to make spines since zerglings get obliterated by DTs. So you must spend 5 drones really quickly for evo, 2 spores, 2 spines (one at each base + you mustn't even mine gas at all). Have you calculated how much that costs? And how far behind you are at that point if he doesn't go DTs? As I mentioned earlier if it's crossmap spawn you have to do that and if he goes anything else instead of DT rush (4gate for example) it would totally crush zerg because they would have neither units nor economy to deal with it. It would be a coinflip scenario, a blind guessing game, 50-50 decision, and that is not what SC2 is about.
Neural Parasite is pretty damn weak late game. Phoenix nullifies it completely lategame. NP is good vs timing pushes of Colossus and Archons.
Fungal is a damage+utility spell anymore. It keeps its utility while reducing its damage. Baneling + Infestor is still good.
Hell Ultras are pretty good vs everything toss except immortals which you can fungal anyway. Lategame Zerg are not much weaker especially as ultra/ling switches are easier but mid game they are a lot weaker as you can no longer use infestors as a core unit.
On September 10 2011 04:35 RobCorso wrote: No matter what any idiot Protoss players say, yes, it is EASY to feedback infestors.
Infestors are not this magical unit that we can keep at the .5 range variable where we can fungal your units and not get hit back. They're big, slow, clunky, and there's often lots of them. They are easy to feedback.
, the only unit we can get against HTs without autolosing.
And I WISH I could combine two low-energy infestors into a massive, psionic tank that does heavy AOE damage versus biological (AKA Zerg) And now we can't even neural these Archons.
Then you can morph into archons or something, I dunno.
Point is, HTs are fine and infestors may be slightly overpowered, but they're the glue holding ZvP together for Zerg. We need them.
Hts are slower; they are not easy to feedback (unless ur in the bronze league, and can't micro). A competent zerg can fungal, np, or drop infested terrans. You can burrow, ghosts can cloak, hts can morph into archons. Pretty sure roaches, broodlords, ultras, mutas (if you spread), nydus play, etc counter hts.
You guys have burrow, we don't (compensation for morphing). Neural nerf was unnecessary, but ht drops are terrible because you have to wait to storm. Infestors have 3 abilities +burrow, hts have 3, one morphs into an archon.
And for cost, its not heavy damage, its 37 with a fairly slow attack rate. You shouldn't be throwing zerglings, a tier one unit, at tier 3.5 archons.
You forget zerg are a macro race and units are slightly less efficient. A storm drop can never be as effective as an infested terran drop, as hts cant target buildings. The last part is correct, you don't know. We also have the ability to morph into archons because hts are almost useless vs anything in equal cost before they get enough energy for storm. You can move out of a storm, and zerglings are pretty efficient if they rund around the storm. If you lose all your zerglings to few storms, it's your fault; I 2v2 with zerg buddies all the time. Just split them, its not hard. Don't 1a, grab a third, moveshift a, repeat *2. You say we can ht drop with ease, but you don't realize infestors can start with enough energy for fungal. You can make 4 immediately. To do a storm drop, you have to scout an unprepared opponent and then wait 44.4 seconds for the hts to get energy.
k bro
kkk bro
Just get HTs versus infestors. You probably are the type of protoss that moves their whole army in one control group, which leaves all your HTs in a clumped ball behind your main army, then infestors unburrow and fungal them.
Then HURP DURP HTS UNDERPOWERED
Never listen to a Protoss about balancing.
You're so incredibly bitter that you seem incapable of being objective. This isn't a Z v P thread, its not about GETTING THE OTHER RACE. Its about actually talking about the patch. Mellow out, please.
Have any pros commented on this change? I'm curious what the Koreans (or at least tip top foreigners) have to say.
When all protoss was going deathball, and zergs had no answer, the infestor FUNGAL GROWTH buff is what took them out of the hole. What makes you think the NP nerf has anything to do with it. Additionally, if you NP a colossus, you basically put a gigantic red bullseye on your infestors, which were already high priority targets.
It seems like whenever there is a small change to Zerg the maturity level of this board takes a shit. I don't know if it's because of IdrA's influence, or what, but you don't see the other races complaining nearly as much as Zergs do.
99% of the games you lose are because you were outplayed. Not because of imbalance.
but you don't see the other races complaining nearly as much as Zergs do.
Made my day, really. We're not talking about imbalance, you are, if you can't understand people complaining about a single unit getting so many nerf in a single patch.. then just go away.
You say we can ht drop with ease, but you don't realize infestors can start with enough energy for fungal. You can make 4 immediately. To do a storm drop, you have to scout an unprepared opponent and then wait 44.4 seconds for the hts to get energy.
44.4s + 5s warp in time = 49.4s between starting to build an HT and having storm ready 50s - between starting to build an infestor and having fungal ready.
I'm sorry, what? You realize that warpgates have cooldown right?
It seems like whenever there is a small change to Zerg the maturity level of this board takes a shit. I don't know if it's because of IdrA's influence, or what, but you don't see the other races complaining nearly as much as Zergs do.
99% of the games you lose are because you were outplayed. Not because of imbalance.
Small change. You know just those two words make me so angry. how can one be so ignorant? Neural Parasite was in the past 1-2 months the ONLY, and i repeat, THE ONLY way of dealing with huge colossi deathballs. 1year of whining blizzard finally changed something and ZvP became a whole new matchup. That counts for zvz and zvt aswell, but i want to concentrate mainly on the ZvP aspect.
ONE YEAR and blizzard came with a new idea an the matchup changed, finally those useless corrupters were replaced and the deathball wasnt too powerful to deal with anymore, but it wasnt to weak so they got roflstomped everytime.
This is is how ZvP will look like in the future. Early game the usual 3gate expand shit and what not and zerg defends. Then mid game Protss techs to Colossi + warpgate, only way of dealing with it is Roach+corrupter+infestor, maybe hydra as well. More colossi means less hydras, more corrupter means less infestor cause of gas. Less infestor means less fungals. Less fungals mean less DPS More Corrupter means huge supply -> less ground army.
and now we find ourselves back in the beta, except roaches have 2supply.
And now that zergs are again forced to go AA against COlossi, the upgrade mechanics will be fucked up again.
Ultra buff my ass. i have to upgrade range at least +1 cause i HAVE TO GO roach hydra. what then? +1 air? that would be good for corruptor against colossus ... and broodlord but broodlings do very little damage. Ultras have no upgrades in the beginning and no matter how short their production time is, they only appear in late game. So, i cannot fight with 0 2 (?) ultras against at least 2 2 protoss units. i cannont upgrade melee blindly because im not sure if toss techswitches or i survive the midgame or whatever. If i transition into ultra i wont need +1 air anymore so this is waisted.
In general: everything that zerg is doing is trying to survive the next period of the game. and in the end we're fucked anyways.
And something else. Zerg had to cry and whine and complain for almost 1 year and nothing happened so zerg had to change their style. Magic box, Banelingbombs, Hydradrops, Queennydus. and nothing worked effectivly. THEN FINALLY BLIZZARD HELPED US. they buffed the infestor Protoss were crying Fast Imba INfestor changed into Slow Imba Infestor Protoss were crying again Slow Imba Infestor changed into SLow useless infestor. Protoss happy :"zerg are whiny bitches, stop crying noobs"
how did your style changed? beta: colossus stalker 1year later: colossus stalker does not work to bad to use High templar -> zerg HAS TO BE NERFED COlossus stalker works again, no nead for hightemplar. Happyface
Is this what its going to be in the end everytime? is it impossible that zerg will one day be on the same level as toss and terraN? Thx blizz for Blueflame Nerf, but 3 redflame hellions kill probes and drones anyway in oneshot, so fuck that techlab at the factory ... just no marine doublereactor factory and fuck that workesr. and hellions are still cheap as fuck so all the gas goes directly into cloaked banshee cause the only counter against hellions are roaches, and as far as i now roaches cant shoot air
GG WP BLIZZARD, gg wp PROTOSS im proud of you
And btw. I stop playing this game if i see another Masterleague Protoss trying to kill 30+ mutas with 2phoenix and a few archons and saying: Muta Op. SERIOUSLY WTF?!?!?!
As a zerg player, I found the neural nerf quite interesting. It definetly will balance out ZvP a bit more, in the sense that it won't just be a mass infestor fiasco. Infestors will still be good in general however, for positioning but now that collosi cant be NP'ed an extremely large collosus deathball must be dealt with BL's and corruptors mainly (since fungal is outranged by collosi w/ thermal lance), this will definetly impact atleast the mid, if not late, game of ZvP, making early collosus a viable choice. Additionally, the implications in ZvT are even larger. Thor blue flame hellion, or just mass mech play will be extremely difficult to deal with. Roaches themselves don't really cut it against mass mech, as once the tanks are seiged it's very difficult to appraoch it. It should be interesting to see if the Ultra patch kicks in here, however, even with the time nerf, the pathing is still quite terrible, and BL's still may be the better option. Yet, now BL to ultra tech switches late game should be more viable, so we shall see what innovations come out of the zerg side once the patch comes out...
I think NP, after the nerf, will still be used in PvZ. After the patch we will see a lot more immortals, and NP is very good against immortals/stalkers compositions.
This nerf i think will help a lot Archons against ling/bling/infestors.
Btw i don't think these changes will make Protoss > Zerg, PvZ atm is more about being able to outmacro (for Z) or to slow-down (for P) the opponent. Zerg (as race) is not better than P for his units but for his ability to produce 8-10 drones at the same time in the early stage of the game. And this patch will not change Protoss early game general weakness.
As a toss i find this "Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units" somehow interesting idea. I cant wait see what the zerg is gonna come up with. I belive this can be a nice change as zerg will not be able to relly fully on NP. Somehow i am tired of seeing NP in every ZvP. I feel that for zerg somehow have gotten used to using it against all forms of agression against toss. I look through all my recordings and i cant find any that has not implemented NP. Seems to me if you go air or ground they still go NP cos its that strong. I would say this is the reason for the change. Its like the old days when toss just went templar/archon (completlly neglecting colosi) against anything cos it was that strong until they nerf it.
On September 10 2011 04:35 RobCorso wrote: No matter what any idiot Protoss players say, yes, it is EASY to feedback infestors.
Infestors are not this magical unit that we can keep at the .5 range variable where we can fungal your units and not get hit back. They're big, slow, clunky, and there's often lots of them. They are easy to feedback.
, the only unit we can get against HTs without autolosing.
And I WISH I could combine two low-energy infestors into a massive, psionic tank that does heavy AOE damage versus biological (AKA Zerg) And now we can't even neural these Archons.
Then you can morph into archons or something, I dunno.
Point is, HTs are fine and infestors may be slightly overpowered, but they're the glue holding ZvP together for Zerg. We need them.
Hts are slower; they are not easy to feedback (unless ur in the bronze league, and can't micro). A competent zerg can fungal, np, or drop infested terrans. You can burrow, ghosts can cloak, hts can morph into archons. Pretty sure roaches, broodlords, ultras, mutas (if you spread), nydus play, etc counter hts.
You guys have burrow, we don't (compensation for morphing). Neural nerf was unnecessary, but ht drops are terrible because you have to wait to storm. Infestors have 3 abilities +burrow, hts have 3, one morphs into an archon.
And for cost, its not heavy damage, its 37 with a fairly slow attack rate. You shouldn't be throwing zerglings, a tier one unit, at tier 3.5 archons.
You forget zerg are a macro race and units are slightly less efficient. A storm drop can never be as effective as an infested terran drop, as hts cant target buildings. The last part is correct, you don't know. We also have the ability to morph into archons because hts are almost useless vs anything in equal cost before they get enough energy for storm. You can move out of a storm, and zerglings are pretty efficient if they rund around the storm. If you lose all your zerglings to few storms, it's your fault; I 2v2 with zerg buddies all the time. Just split them, its not hard. Don't 1a, grab a third, moveshift a, repeat *2. You say we can ht drop with ease, but you don't realize infestors can start with enough energy for fungal. You can make 4 immediately. To do a storm drop, you have to scout an unprepared opponent and then wait 44.4 seconds for the hts to get energy.
k bro
kkk bro
Just get HTs versus infestors. You probably are the type of protoss that moves their whole army in one control group, which leaves all your HTs in a clumped ball behind your main army, then infestors unburrow and fungal them.
Then HURP DURP HTS UNDERPOWERED
Never listen to a Protoss about balancing.
I know MC's not code S anymore, but i'd say hes pretty good. MC uses 1 control group, sometimes none. TLO uses no control groups unless he changed. Complicated control schemes are better for some players and worse for others.
It seems like whenever there is a small change to Zerg the maturity level of this board takes a shit. I don't know if it's because of IdrA's influence, or what, but you don't see the other races complaining nearly as much as Zergs do.
99% of the games you lose are because you were outplayed. Not because of imbalance.
Small change. You know just those two words make me so angry. how can one be so ignorant? Neural Parasite was in the past 1-2 months the ONLY, and i repeat, THE ONLY way of dealing with huge colossi deathballs. 1year of whining blizzard finally changed something and ZvP became a whole new matchup. That counts for zvz and zvt aswell, but i want to concentrate mainly on the ZvP aspect.
ONE YEAR and blizzard came with a new idea an the matchup changed, finally those useless corrupters were replaced and the deathball wasnt too powerful to deal with anymore, but it wasnt to weak so they got roflstomped everytime.
This is is how ZvP will look like in the future. Early game the usual 3gate expand shit and what not and zerg defends. Then mid game Protss techs to Colossi + warpgate, only way of dealing with it is Roach+corrupter+infestor, maybe hydra as well. More colossi means less hydras, more corrupter means less infestor cause of gas. Less infestor means less fungals. Less fungals mean less DPS More Corrupter means huge supply -> less ground army.
and now we find ourselves back in the beta, except roaches have 2supply.
And now that zergs are again forced to go AA against COlossi, the upgrade mechanics will be fucked up again.
Ultra buff my ass. i have to upgrade range at least +1 cause i HAVE TO GO roach hydra. what then? +1 air? that would be good for corruptor against colossus ... and broodlord but broodlings do very little damage. Ultras have no upgrades in the beginning and no matter how short their production time is, they only appear in late game. So, i cannot fight with 0 2 (?) ultras against at least 2 2 protoss units. i cannont upgrade melee blindly because im not sure if toss techswitches or i survive the midgame or whatever. If i transition into ultra i wont need +1 air anymore so this is waisted.
In general: everything that zerg is doing is trying to survive the next period of the game. and in the end we're fucked anyways.
And something else. Zerg had to cry and whine and complain for almost 1 year and nothing happened so zerg had to change their style. Magic box, Banelingbombs, Hydradrops, Queennydus. and nothing worked effectivly. THEN FINALLY BLIZZARD HELPED US. they buffed the infestor Protoss were crying Fast Imba INfestor changed into Slow Imba Infestor Protoss were crying again Slow Imba Infestor changed into SLow useless infestor. Protoss happy :"zerg are whiny bitches, stop crying noobs"
how did your style changed? beta: colossus stalker 1year later: colossus stalker does not work to bad to use High templar -> zerg HAS TO BE NERFED COlossus stalker works again, no nead for hightemplar. Happyface
Is this what its going to be in the end everytime? is it impossible that zerg will one day be on the same level as toss and terraN? Thx blizz for Blueflame Nerf, but 3 redflame hellions kill probes and drones anyway in oneshot, so fuck that techlab at the factory ... just no marine doublereactor factory and fuck that workesr. and hellions are still cheap as fuck so all the gas goes directly into cloaked banshee cause the only counter against hellions are roaches, and as far as i now roaches cant shoot air
GG WP BLIZZARD, gg wp PROTOSS im proud of you
And btw. I stop playing this game if i see another Masterleague Protoss trying to kill 30+ mutas with 2phoenix and a few archons and saying: Muta Op. SERIOUSLY WTF?!?!?!
Oh, my ass. You lose all cred with your first paragraph. Only way of stopping the deathball... maybe 1/5 high masters zerg I face ever use neural parasite. Fungal growth has always been the impact spell since it was buffed... neural is nice, but dont delude yourself into thinking it was used because protoss havent been getting colossus in recent months. Why not? Because you cant, because of the threat of neurals...whether they research it or not. Baneling bombs aren't effective? Go practice man... seriously. The time it took you to write this diatribe could have been time spent learning how to use the tools blizzard gave you. I doubt you've used a neural parasite in the last 2 months anyways. Some of what you say in your post is true but its REALLY difficult for a reader to pick through all the BS and rage to find your point, but one thing is clear: You do not have a deep understanding of starcraft 2.
On September 10 2011 04:10 Lasbike wrote: WHAT??! NP can't be used against Clossis & Archons & Thors ?
This is ridiculous -.-
To be honest, I don't care about what they did to NP i just wish they would call it what it is. They removed almost all its utility from the game, meaning it should simply be removed from the game.
Its now nothing more than a gimmicky victory cigar.
when did this happen? Now Zergs are going to wtfdie to P again. Watch Zerg win rates plummet.
Festor was their only tool for dealing with big weapons, their gimmick nerf being completed, they will now fall away from anything resembling a good win ratio.
the only hope now is to hope that the P army makes some immortals, because then you can NP them and shoot the colossus.
You pay 300m 200g for a Colossus right? And 300m 200g for a Thor?
Given the commitment of resources I think you should be able to use them in a fight, not have them used against you. That's just in principle: 'spent money on x, x killed stuff'.
Now, as I've read from you folks, infestors could be feedback-ed (fedback?) or focus-fired to eliminate the NP when it's in use, so battles will generally work off these mechanics (i.e. some games the infestors will avoid danger and hold onto their quarry; in other games, they will get squished/burned by army or exploded by templar). The way it usually goes with NP is that you 'spent money on x, protected x with y, x killed stuff', so with NP in play you need - for these already very expensive units - other units, and the ability to micro more or less well.
I don't think SC2 is well served piling cost on cost, so that we fight over our 'magic units' exclusively, which is what I see a lot of in VODs of the top players. So many times you'll see a Zerg player mass infestor with ling/bling, and spellcast his way through everything.
Of course I have fallen victim to Protosses with their growing deathball finally rolling over me 5 minutes later, having had those 5 minutes to do my best to respond. And I've also had Terrans protect one or two Thors and stomp through endless of my units and both bases in the early game, or have 6 or more in the midgame with huge amounts of other units to wipe the floor with me.
In both instances it seems that if I spent so much MORE money and effort than my opponent trying not to die and failing so hard, there's something wrong with the game. If this is a game of economy and army management, then the build up of workers and minerals in the early game and the transition into units in the mid game (or whenever I wanted or needed them to play with), should (common sensically) determine your success. Very roughly determine, of course, but still be determinant enough that if I spend 10 times more than you defending your attack, I should at least destroy your attack (without even talking of the units I should have left). BUT THIS ASSUMPTION IS NOT TRUE!
Now, it is true that economy and army are absolute requirements to play against your opponent in this game. But the issue of what you spend your money on and why is not a mechanic of the game itself, because it is a strategy game, and therefore vastly open-ended. Appreciating this point is, I think, a real problem when talking about 'balance', for the reason that your decision making as to how you're going to play this game is structured by what players are doing with the game at the moment (what you call the 'metagame' is just the most developed outcome of this point amongst the best players).
As players we need to stop thinking backwards from the most developed state of the game (i.e. I was killed by a deathball at 20 minutes) to the 'obvious counter' that you COULD have had (or COULD NOT have had depending on 'balance'), and start thinking positively as to how we're playing and why. I've heard Day9 talking like this many times in his casts and I think that if he's a great player and instructor and guide to this game, then I'm learning!
I've read on the forums here that the game is SO well-balanced that only top pros experience any kind of balance issues in their win/loss percentages. But that use of the 'balance' term ignores the fact that they have highly developed ways of playing the game, and relies upon their extremely good intuition. But that same intuition, that 'mastery of the game', regardless of playstyle, build orders and tactics, is a reflection of the development of their ability to succeed relative to others. They may 'be programmers' (two 'm's) but they're still outwitting their opponents in a game of strategy and not computation.
Learning a unit or a unit composition, or a method for safely expanding, is 'good' or 'bad' or 'unusable'; being told that 'you can't do that because of x and y counters' or of 'balancing issues'; or that (for example) 'Mutas are great in ZvZ due to a timing window'... All these encounters structure your actual way of playing this game in a way that is fundamentally based upon feelings. Better or worse ones for sure, but this is very different to talking about 'balance'. Talking about 'balance' means not understanding two of our friends that enable us to reason:
ANALYSIS and DEDUCTION! (stay with me)
You can say in terms of 'balancing' that 'there was nothing I could do!', like a poster above, who writes:
This is is how ZvP will look like in the future. Early game the usual 3gate expand shit and what not and zerg defends. Then mid game Protss techs to Colossi + warpgate, only way of dealing with it is Roach+corrupter+infestor, maybe hydra as well. More colossi means less hydras, more corrupter means less infestor cause of gas. Less infestor means less fungals. Less fungals mean less DPS More Corrupter means huge supply -> less ground army.
and now we find ourselves back in the beta, except roaches have 2supply.
(Coopa826)
You can head nod to all of that, as it's all somewhat in our experience as Zergs and backed up by the negative reinforcement of having lost many times. It is an ANALYSIS - it starts at the endpoint and works its way back (if we assume colossi kill us, then we shouldn't have built many hydras before the armies fight. But if... etc). Now, we don't question the validity of this analysis for generalising issues about the game for a very simple reason - we have not attempted to DEDUCE this game-ending situation. DEDUCTION moves forwards in time from the beginning of the game. We don't consider DEDUCTION because the way the games play out get more familiar to us the more we play and the better we get!
Now, what does a DEDUCTION involve such that we can support the ANALYSIS? It basically involves a 20 minute BUILD ORDER that never changes no matter how you get attacked, and ends with the same resulting army mix that instantly wins. That build order must be the most thorough build order possible, down to the last 5 minerals, and the last pixel on every map.
Another thing about Day9 - he's a maths student and he knows exactly what I'm talking about! Doesn't he always say to you that you should do your analysis from the 'earliest possible point that something went wrong'? That's because the further ahead you go unquestioningly, the more unsafe your reasoning becomes!
Yeah, back to the time where zergs went roach/corrupters against deathball. If you make too many corrupters, you don't have not enough ground army, stalkers kill you. If you make too few corrupters, colossi still live and kill you.
as a protoss player, i dislike the NP change. It was one thing when they made mothership unable to be NPed, and I always wondered why Ultralisks couldn't be NPed. NP was one of the OMFG abilities that when used right made the fans scream and the enemy cringe, BUT IT WASN'T IMBA. Never was NP actually able to change the game unless protoss allowed it. SO what if they NPed your archon or Thors from the second level of Shakura's plateau or similar, it was the zerg counter to Massive Units.
tl;dr
NP has never been imba, never will be imba, and now that it can't np massive units, may as well be removed from the game.
I think that NP can still be helpful in some cases. Like compositions with immo or siege tanks. these two units tend to do a good amount of damage against certain units and can still definitely swing an engagement in the Zerg's favor. The only question is if spending energy on NP will be more helpful than spending energy on fungal. We won't know for sure until everyone gets to play with these changes for a while.
NP has never been imba, never will be imba, and now that it can't np massive units, may as well be removed from the game.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. If this change is followed through, I foresee a future where VERY few Z's will even research the damned spell, so why keep it in the game at all?
Someone today said to me: "Idk why zergs cry about infesters when they do so much with their Infested Terrans, fungals, AND NP all in one unit. It's OP!"
To be honest, I think everyone can agree it is ridiculous that blizzard even put us in this situation. Why does so much of Z's success in the current metagame have to rely on one unit? I would love for this NP nerf to go through or have it removed completely; what we need is a replacement to balance the Zerg arsenal instead of having to rely on one friggin' unit to give us the cost efficiency we need against virtually everything.
On September 10 2011 12:21 SuperYo1000 wrote: how many protoss ARE in code s now?
It is a sad sight that only 5 remain. all that were in code S got booted out, including the bosstoss MC. And all that had a chance to get in failed, including Trickster and JYP, who both had a chance but lost to MKP for the last slot.
Karne, that goes along with my long talked about belief that Blizzard put very poor design into protoss and zerg. It's always understandable, that the main race of the campaign in any game is always the most thought out, but in a game like SC2 having the non campaign races so HORRIBLY designed is unacceptable. Taking balance out of the equation, toss/zerg just have stupid design this time around. Whether its about the protoss warpgate mechanics and how the entire race has to be rebalanced around warpgates, or the zerg which has extremely powerful situational units, but are forced to go to 1-3 units every game 80% of the time despite how powerful each and every unit can be.
On September 10 2011 12:34 darklight54321 wrote: Karne, that goes along with my long talked about belief that Blizzard put very poor design into protoss and zerg. It's always understandable, that the main race of the campaign in any game is always the most thought out, but in a game like SC2 having the non campaign races so HORRIBLY designed is unacceptable. Taking balance out of the equation, toss/zerg just have stupid design this time around. Whether its about the protoss warpgate mechanics and how the entire race has to be rebalanced around warpgates, or the zerg which has extremely powerful situational units, but are forced to go to 1-3 units every game 80% of the time despite how powerful each and every unit can be.
Absolutely agreed, it is sad and I pray the expansions will cure this for both the Zerg and our toss counterparts.
On September 10 2011 12:21 SuperYo1000 wrote: how many protoss ARE in code s now?
It is a sad sight that only 5 remain. all that were in code S got booted out, including the bosstoss MC. And all that had a chance to get in failed, including Trickster and JYP, who both had a chance but lost to MKP for the last slot.
Yea protoss is kind of in a sorry state right now to say the least. As a zerg player, I would like to see infestors get nerfed just slightly, however, the situation seems kind of precarious right now, any major nerf to the infestor and all of a sudden mech makes a giant upswing in ZvT, and collosus balls make a giant upswing in ZvP...however, I still feel as if this patch should make things a lot more interesting. Also add into this the immortal buff, and ZvP is gonna take on a different feeling all together. Personally, I feel as if using immortals after this patch in ZvP is going to be extremely unecessary, when collosus now cannot be NP'ed and therefore are vastly superior to the NP-prone immortals who can do heavy damage to your own army if turned against you, not to mention the fact that immo-stalker will prolly still lose out to infestor-roach combos anyways, however I guess if zerg moves back into mass roach corruptor balls immortals may be useful... roach corruptor has always been a weird build for me though , I feel as if it is very map oriented, b/c if you engage at a bad position you will auto-lose to most toss deathballs, however hopefully the decreased build time on the ultra will help a bit in this (i still feel as if the ultra AI kinda sucks...but I guess fungal is still in play anyways so nbd...)
It seems like whenever there is a small change to Zerg the maturity level of this board takes a shit. I don't know if it's because of IdrA's influence, or what, but you don't see the other races complaining nearly as much as Zergs do.
99% of the games you lose are because you were outplayed. Not because of imbalance.
Small change. You know just those two words make me so angry. how can one be so ignorant? Neural Parasite was in the past 1-2 months the ONLY, and i repeat, THE ONLY way of dealing with huge colossi deathballs. 1year of whining blizzard finally changed something and ZvP became a whole new matchup. That counts for zvz and zvt aswell, but i want to concentrate mainly on the ZvP aspect.
ONE YEAR and blizzard came with a new idea an the matchup changed, finally those useless corrupters were replaced and the deathball wasnt too powerful to deal with anymore, but it wasnt to weak so they got roflstomped everytime.
This is is how ZvP will look like in the future. Early game the usual 3gate expand shit and what not and zerg defends. Then mid game Protss techs to Colossi + warpgate, only way of dealing with it is Roach+corrupter+infestor, maybe hydra as well. More colossi means less hydras, more corrupter means less infestor cause of gas. Less infestor means less fungals. Less fungals mean less DPS More Corrupter means huge supply -> less ground army.
and now we find ourselves back in the beta, except roaches have 2supply.
And now that zergs are again forced to go AA against COlossi, the upgrade mechanics will be fucked up again.
Ultra buff my ass. i have to upgrade range at least +1 cause i HAVE TO GO roach hydra. what then? +1 air? that would be good for corruptor against colossus ... and broodlord but broodlings do very little damage. Ultras have no upgrades in the beginning and no matter how short their production time is, they only appear in late game. So, i cannot fight with 0 2 (?) ultras against at least 2 2 protoss units. i cannont upgrade melee blindly because im not sure if toss techswitches or i survive the midgame or whatever. If i transition into ultra i wont need +1 air anymore so this is waisted.
In general: everything that zerg is doing is trying to survive the next period of the game. and in the end we're fucked anyways.
And something else. Zerg had to cry and whine and complain for almost 1 year and nothing happened so zerg had to change their style. Magic box, Banelingbombs, Hydradrops, Queennydus. and nothing worked effectivly. THEN FINALLY BLIZZARD HELPED US. they buffed the infestor Protoss were crying Fast Imba INfestor changed into Slow Imba Infestor Protoss were crying again Slow Imba Infestor changed into SLow useless infestor. Protoss happy :"zerg are whiny bitches, stop crying noobs"
how did your style changed? beta: colossus stalker 1year later: colossus stalker does not work to bad to use High templar -> zerg HAS TO BE NERFED COlossus stalker works again, no nead for hightemplar. Happyface
Is this what its going to be in the end everytime? is it impossible that zerg will one day be on the same level as toss and terraN? Thx blizz for Blueflame Nerf, but 3 redflame hellions kill probes and drones anyway in oneshot, so fuck that techlab at the factory ... just no marine doublereactor factory and fuck that workesr. and hellions are still cheap as fuck so all the gas goes directly into cloaked banshee cause the only counter against hellions are roaches, and as far as i now roaches cant shoot air
GG WP BLIZZARD, gg wp PROTOSS im proud of you
And btw. I stop playing this game if i see another Masterleague Protoss trying to kill 30+ mutas with 2phoenix and a few archons and saying: Muta Op. SERIOUSLY WTF?!?!?!
Oh, my ass. You lose all cred with your first paragraph. Only way of stopping the deathball... maybe 1/5 high masters zerg I face ever use neural parasite. Fungal growth has always been the impact spell since it was buffed... neural is nice, but dont delude yourself into thinking it was used because protoss havent been getting colossus in recent months. Why not? Because you cant, because of the threat of neurals...whether they research it or not. Baneling bombs aren't effective? Go practice man... seriously. The time it took you to write this diatribe could have been time spent learning how to use the tools blizzard gave you. I doubt you've used a neural parasite in the last 2 months anyways. Some of what you say in your post is true but its REALLY difficult for a reader to pick through all the BS and rage to find your point, but one thing is clear: You do not have a deep understanding of starcraft 2.
While his post is a little bit venting and raving, he does bring up a few good points (actually he mostly rants, but yea Zerg had limited options against colossi). I'm a Master League Zerg (seewutididthar?) and NP is really the only 'reliable' option against colossi - and even then it's not reliable since you will always lose infestors NPing, and you have to have about 1.5x more infestors than colossi, without support (or with your own huge ground army).
Baneling bombs are really good, and in a way, I'm a bit sad that infestors got buffed so fast because baneling rain was becoming more popular. But baneling rain is not consistent at all, as it is ruined by air play (VR/Colossi) and stalker/colossi with heavy stalker play. It takes an inordinate amount of micro to pull off - which, please understand, I'm not crying that Zerg has to outplay Protoss' a-move - that really only works when Protoss doesn't micro correctly (which happens all the time, even at the top level, don't get me wrong).
Baneling bombs are extremely effective, but are costly. Most times, it is cheaper for Zerg to go with Hive tech (or infestors, really) (they cost more gas per supply than BCs, colossi, or ultras), and if Protoss micros, there's nothing Zerg can really do about it. It's not like marine splitting where Zerg can split their banes and use flanks with zerglings to hold marines in place.
On a side note, I wish people would stop saying "mass thor herp derp". No one holds mass thor by making infestors, they hold it with mass muta, mass roach, or ling/roach. You're better off getting BL than infestors w/np against thors.
Neural Parasited units will now retain their weapons upgrades. This will make NP'ed colossi and tanks / thors alot more powerful, and should cause protoss to think twice before upgrading to +3 attack before even starting armor level 1. (Actually saw this in the patch, just completely forgot to include it - cheers for pointing this out).
but np doesnt work on massive units now! +_+ (or did i misunderstand?)
What is zerg supposed to use against archons now then. I don't think NP nerf was needed at all especially with the immortal buff NP would be needed against it I feel. About the whining between races it is true that zerg whined for a consecutive 6 months and some nerfs were thrown out at races but on zerg aswell (roaches, but they were op then). It wasn't before the infestor buff when we got a decent buff to our race, we tried different things though. Protoss whines for two months and gets the change almost directly compared to zerg just because they still are going Stalker + Colossi and don't want to use HT.
My personal view of the design flaw of the game are two units. Colosi and sentry. Thanks to the mechanic on how the work they leave the toss severlly underpowered at the start and therefore the other races get nerfed. This further amplifies the problem when the toss gets the numbers high at later game and can produce some tactical advantages that people tend to call op, Not having the sufficient amount of units at the start and relaying heavelly on sentries just to survive. Then comes the colosi with its abilities of moving through the terrain and range. Add this to sentry and it becomes a powerfull death ball at the end. The design issue imo is in Toss =( not in the other races. It seems that Blizz is tyring to nerf all th other races so that Toss can have a chance. Its the fundamental of their design flaw.
Neural Parasited units will now retain their weapons upgrades. This will make NP'ed colossi and tanks / thors alot more powerful, and should cause protoss to think twice before upgrading to +3 attack before even starting armor level 1. (Actually saw this in the patch, just completely forgot to include it - cheers for pointing this out).
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
On September 10 2011 14:16 genius_man16 wrote: I'm just gonna go mass thor every-game now cuz the only way to stop it was with NP, but now i'm free of that.
Yay free wins vs zerg?
Check out MvP vs DRG at MLG game 2 i think. He beats MvP without Infestors.
Rainbow has shown BC/Ghost just rolls infestor play. You don't need BC's in ZvT because other units do fine. You didnt' see BC's in BW ZvT.
And no good Zerg opens infestors in ZvT, so you must be the only one having trouble with them. Right now the best Zergs all use ling/bane/muta (violet tries to go infestor and he gets roflstomped by Terran, the casters even went as far to say he has no clue how to play the MU) and then transition to BL/Infestor after they win the mid-game with ling/bane/infestor and secure a huge macro lead.
Tank/Viking is too cost efficient against BL/Infestor, it never works unless can afford to throw away such costly units because they are up 2 bases. That's not to mention ghosts, which immediately make infestors worthless.
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
On September 10 2011 14:16 genius_man16 wrote: I'm just gonna go mass thor every-game now cuz the only way to stop it was with NP, but now i'm free of that.
Yay free wins vs zerg?
Yes. This makes the old hellion/thor build TvZ valid again. As now Zs can NP the thors and FG the hellions with enough infestors.
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
Terran and protoss just don't work like that. They are not zerg that can tech switch very easily, they need gaz and time ( T3 for HT , upgrades + ghost academy + build tech lab for GHOST )
You just can't scout an infestor and say "ho cool i'm just gonna make some HT", infestor is : T2 ! As protoss you probably teched to colossi ( to survive to masses of early zerg units ) you can't just say "OK" and rego for a full tech tree.
Protoss and Terran should alaways have less eco than zerg ( mean less gaz too ), if you tech hard you let the zerg teching hard too ( and with better eco ) meaning that he will have a new unit that need another counter ( read "broodlord"/"ultralisk" ) when you will have reached the correct counter to infestor play.
On September 10 2011 14:16 genius_man16 wrote: I'm just gonna go mass thor every-game now cuz the only way to stop it was with NP, but now i'm free of that.
Yay free wins vs zerg?
Yes. This makes the old hellion/thor build TvZ valid again. As now Zs can NP the thors and FG the hellions with enough infestors.
It was always viable, just had to add ghosts , although now 20 supply=3 moar thors soooo...yay?
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
Terran and protoss just don't work like that. They are not zerg that can tech switch very easily, they need gaz and time ( T3 for HT , upgrades + ghost academy + build tech lab for GHOST )
You just can't scout an infestor and say "ho cool i'm just gonna make some HT", infestor is : T2 ! As protoss you probably teched to colossi ( to survive to masses of early zerg units ) you can't just say "OK" and rego for a full tech tree.
Protoss and Terran should alaways have less eco than zerg ( mean less gaz too ), if you tech hard you let the zerg teching hard too ( and with better eco ) meaning that he will have a new unit that need another counter ( read "broodlord"/"ultralisk" ) when you will have reached the correct counter to infestor play.
Excuse me but a protoss going blind colossus to counter "a swarm of zerg units" that he hasnt verified is even there is just plain out bad. That is not how the game is supposed to work, just like zerg cannot go pure ling/infestor without any scouting information whatsoever, as a chargelot/HT/few archon timing push will play balls with it.
Now I want to say for the record I agree with the consensus that infestors are currently too dominant. ZvT can still be played without if you're good with other styles, ZvP can maybe be managed until past 15 minutes, but then it becomes unplayable without infestors. ZvZ will feature a super agressive early game and then a turtle midgame into lategame mass infestor plays. All matchups infestors can be gamechanging if the opponent does not respond correctly. High templars, ghosts and infestors each respond well to the opponents infestors.
Sure, on paper a perfectly controlled infestor ball will outfungal a HT ball - but this is assuming the protoss does not have any other units. Whoever keeps his infestors in front? They will be wrecked by offensive blinks and chargelots / colossi fire. Think a real game scenario here
While I am willing to say that infestors are too strong in ZvP as of right now, I will in no way say that a nerf this severe is validated. ZvT is already quite imbalanced in favor of terran, nerfing a zerg powerunit will only make it worse (and lets not forget; blueflame hellions will still stomp zerglings).
What do I think should be done? Well its quite simple. Part of what makes infestors super strong is the fact that zergs can "turtle up" with gasless units and then all of a sudden pop out 10 combat-ready infestors. If pathogen glands were removed, part of this would be fixed as a timing attack hitting right about when infestors usually come would be quite deadly, thus forcing zerg to think twice before blindly adding mass infestor. Protoss suffered the same fate due to HT instant-storm. If infestors had to be added little by little, I think a lot of the current sorrow over infestors would fade. Maybe a small fungal nerf to go with it as well. But to both nerf fungal growth AND remove neural parasite is taking it a step too far. Chainfungal can still handle poorly microed deathballs of protoss, but a well microed deathball (ie. spread out, not clumped up) will be very powerful now. And thor/BFH/SCV based builds in ZvT will be so hard to deal with - especially if a viking were to clean the field of overlords (the stargate could be validated due to BFH drops to keep the zerg on the defensive and attempt to force mutalisks, which the thor followup would be instant win against).
Infact the only matchup I like the change in is ZvZ. Infestors filled too much. They still will, but slightly less so now than before.
On September 10 2011 23:30 mr_tolkien wrote: I think NP needs a buff if the non massive nerf goes in. No channeling, longer duration, or longer range, pick 1 or 2!
Do you agree?
I feel the range, and time duration on the infestors are already good as it is.
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
Terran and protoss just don't work like that. They are not zerg that can tech switch very easily, they need gaz and time ( T3 for HT , upgrades + ghost academy + build tech lab for GHOST )
You just can't scout an infestor and say "ho cool i'm just gonna make some HT", infestor is : T2 ! As protoss you probably teched to colossi ( to survive to masses of early zerg units ) you can't just say "OK" and rego for a full tech tree.
Protoss and Terran should alaways have less eco than zerg ( mean less gaz too ), if you tech hard you let the zerg teching hard too ( and with better eco ) meaning that he will have a new unit that need another counter ( read "broodlord"/"ultralisk" ) when you will have reached the correct counter to infestor play.
Except that protoss is the absolute best at tech switching, while we need a tech structure for each unit protoss don't need quite as many. Sure terran isnt best at tech switch but ghosts are then reaally good.
On September 10 2011 22:58 Thraundil wrote: While I am willing to say that infestors are too strong in ZvP as of right now, I will in no way say that a nerf this severe is validated. ZvT is already quite imbalanced in favor of terran, nerfing a zerg powerunit will only make it worse (and lets not forget; blueflame hellions will still stomp zerglings).
i think what Blizz is trying to tell you with the new patch is to go like old sc1 style of play. That is > ultra + infest or infest + banes or ultra + banes kinda play...in some cases this is good cos ghost will not play well in some parts.....so u can easelly tech switch between infestor into somthign else rndering ghost a useless unit.... I think they want something close to the old sc style....thats why the ultra buff...
On September 10 2011 23:34 Olsson wrote: Except that protoss is the absolute best at tech switching, while we need a tech structure for each unit protoss don't need quite as many. Sure terran isnt best at tech switch but ghosts are then reaally good.
this is absurde....try and tech switch and you will die a painfull death as Toss...why you think the pros dont tech switch? Instad they add to the composition, they dont tech switch. Cos tech switching is expensive and thats without including researches. Toss strenght is in adding to their composition not tech switching.
On September 10 2011 23:30 mr_tolkien wrote: I think NP needs a buff if the non massive nerf goes in. No channeling, longer duration, or longer range, pick 1 or 2!
Do you agree?
I feel the range, and time duration on the infestors are already good as it is.
Yes, if you can NP proper units. But if you can't anymore, I'm pretty sure removing the channeling at least would ease the pain of the Zergs and make the spell much more interesting.
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
Terran and protoss just don't work like that. They are not zerg that can tech switch very easily, they need gaz and time ( T3 for HT , upgrades + ghost academy + build tech lab for GHOST )
You just can't scout an infestor and say "ho cool i'm just gonna make some HT", infestor is : T2 ! As protoss you probably teched to colossi ( to survive to masses of early zerg units ) you can't just say "OK" and rego for a full tech tree.
Protoss and Terran should alaways have less eco than zerg ( mean less gaz too ), if you tech hard you let the zerg teching hard too ( and with better eco ) meaning that he will have a new unit that need another counter ( read "broodlord"/"ultralisk" ) when you will have reached the correct counter to infestor play.
Except that protoss is the absolute best at tech switching, while we need a tech structure for each unit protoss don't need quite as many. Sure terran isnt best at tech switch but ghosts are then reaally good.
lol wtf. Since when do we not need tech structure for each unit, and since when do our tech structures not cost more or take longer to build. You need a tech lab and ghost academy to tech to ghost, okay. Protoss needs twilight council and templar archives to tech to high templar. overall cost of templar archives compared to tech lab (assuming you dont have one) and ghost academy is
150 200 50
to
150 50 40 50 25 25
look at the huge cost difference and time difference. While i admit you might lose prod for 25 secs if you dont already have a tech lab, ghosts cost less to research and is more effective as well (AOE > single target).
So dont ever bitch about teching, only time you can do that is about BCs, and who uses BCs except in TvT anyway.
Why didnt they chose to nerf Infestors by having FG not freezing Massive units or something like that instead of just removing the major reason why NPs was researched in the 1st place?
Who will think in their rightful mind "Oh, here's a VRay/ Tank, let's research NP!"
This will simply remove NP from the game. And remove at the same time one of the last funny/ flavored things SC2 has in it. (because that NP is spectacular and fun to play/ watch, imagine: No more Mothership NP... WTF!)
I don't really understand the reasoning for the nerfing of NP. IMO, instead of people QQing about how it's "imba", they should be more active in eliminating/making useless infestors.
Take a look at dark swarm from BroodWar. If this was introduced in SC2, there would be an instant shitstorm. It wasn't taken out of BroodWar. Terrans figured out that they had to kill defilers somehow, making sure that the zerg didn't get too many of them. Terrans used science vessels. Why don't SC2 terrans use ghosts (they CAN cloak) to EMP/Snipe infestors?
With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Having said that, I think that the rest of the patch is good. Especially the part about Warp Prisms. Protoss really needs that.
The mothership IMO is a terrible unit. It seems viable only KiWiKaKi style (running around blink stalkers, killing stuff, and then mass recalling to retreat).
On September 11 2011 01:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Currently, fungal slaughters anything NP doesn't, and vice versa. There is no counter to large numbers of infestors, you simply have to win before Zerg can get there. Once they get >15-20 you are dead, period.
Too bad then that Protoss can't run around and kill infestors before they get on the field. They could run stalkers around and blink to kill stuff, but fungal shuts that down pretty hard.
I think that Blizzard should aim towards the defiler/science vessel relationship in BW. That was fun to watch, and was good for gameplay. I'm not saying that the infestor should be replaced with the defiler. But changes need to happen.
On September 11 2011 01:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Currently, fungal slaughters anything NP doesn't, and vice versa. There is no counter to large numbers of infestors, you simply have to win before Zerg can get there. Once they get >15-20 you are dead, period.
^ Yea unless P is stupid and floats them out front or groups them all together, it's horrible when you have to channel NP or chain FG and get 1 FG off and lose 10-20 infestors in the process. There's a reason Zerg make 20 infestors, because having 10 wouldn't be enough. And losing them to much cheaper HT really sucks.
On September 11 2011 01:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Currently, fungal slaughters anything NP doesn't, and vice versa. There is no counter to large numbers of infestors, you simply have to win before Zerg can get there. Once they get >15-20 you are dead, period.
1 HT can feedback 4 infestors.
So 5 HT can take out 20 Infestors.
1-2 Ghosts can take out 10+ Infestors.
this is very poor comment. You just got to realise that infestor not only outranges the HT, but its moves faster, you can get many infestors way bfore Toss can get on HT and how long does it take for a HT to click on each infestor to neutralise it, when u just click with one infestor and half the army is neutralised... Ghost perhaps...But in PvT its no longer a toss storm party instead its a terran emp party now.. Its actually very hard to get the ghost with HT cos presently ghost outnumber HTs as they get produced cheaper, earlier and move faster giving them a higher survival rate...
On September 11 2011 02:20 Belial88 wrote: ^ Yea unless P is stupid and floats them out front or groups them all together, it's horrible when you have to channel NP or chain FG and get 1 FG off and lose 10-20 infestors in the process. There's a reason Zerg make 20 infestors, because having 10 wouldn't be enough. And losing them to much cheaper HT really sucks.
So, if P keeps all their HT's grouped its bad, but if you move all your infestors up for a fungal in a group its not?
On September 11 2011 01:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Currently, fungal slaughters anything NP doesn't, and vice versa. There is no counter to large numbers of infestors, you simply have to win before Zerg can get there. Once they get >15-20 you are dead, period.
1 HT can feedback 4 infestors.
So 5 HT can take out 20 Infestors.
1-2 Ghosts can take out 10+ Infestors.
Infestor and HT spells have the same range, and infestors move faster. It is not possible to stop mass fungal from going off with HTs. They only need to get like 3 fungals off. If you kill 16/20 of the infestors with feedback the remaining 4 will still massacre you. Fungal's AE is massive (80% larger than that of storm) and you can't move out of it.
This makes me so happy, i had totaly given up all hope on next patch untill i read this. Now terran will finally be able to actually stand equaly vs zerg late game, just like zerg have it hard in the start vs terran.
The spell is in general Uberpowerd. I mean when have you EVER seen a bc zerg vs terran? It's because it's so shit to use atm because if you have 4-5of them the zerg can just controll them and the terran army will kill itself. Getting really tired of the infestor BS everygame there my entire army gets fungeld and my thors get's MC'd and finishes the rest of my army. i hope i can start to use BC vs zerg late game. This would make me really happy to see that our more expensive unit can be used atleast 1/5games or something instead of never.
This is compareable to hellion change and will balance the game A LOT.
The only thing about hellion is that i dont understand why the hellion doesnt get a flat damage increase of 5damage instead of just vs light because hellions are a total waste of a unit if you arrent up vs a lot of light units because of there extremly low damage vs armor. I mean i want atleast 8hellions so be able to beat 3maruders -.-
HEY DUDE!! i dont know if you know it .... but there are rumours that terrans have a unit calles GHOST. 2ghosts can make 10+ infestors useless. well but im not sure about it. I never saw it with my own eyes All i saw was toss and terran noobs crying about how imba infestors WERE without using any counter to it.
Its like going mass roach against Colossi deathballs and saying. Fu*k this colossus are unbeatable BLIZZARD NERF PLS, seriously
Just like i have to spread my entire army out when i face a zerg cant you do the same thing with your infestors not to get EMP, no because you are a scrub zerg that just whines and believe the game is 100% balanced when you kill a terran full terran army with a couple of fungels and than refer to it as skill.
If you didnt know EMP doesnt murder the infestors, compared to what fungel does.
On August 26 2011 05:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: I love all the changes except 5 sec more on rax (wtf) and immortal range. Those buggers already ass rape face. DPS of sieged tanks, that can move, hard to kill, and attack faster sans splash.
No thank you on the range =(
Ohhhh and oohhh cheaper overseers is gay IMO. Already hard to clear the overlords around... now cloakshees have no place what so ever in TvZ and they can get them MUCH much easier, without worrying about gas cost.
un fun =(
Did a real thought in your brain occur when you were writing any of this?
On August 26 2011 05:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: I love all the changes except 5 sec more on rax (wtf) and immortal range. Those buggers already ass rape face. DPS of sieged tanks, that can move, hard to kill, and attack faster sans splash.
No thank you on the range =(
Ohhhh and oohhh cheaper overseers is gay IMO. Already hard to clear the overlords around... now cloakshees have no place what so ever in TvZ and they can get them MUCH much easier, without worrying about gas cost.
un fun =(
Did a real thought in your brain occur when you were writing any of this?
He expected to get battlecruisers out of barracks for 50 minerals and no tech requirements :[
But besides that. I wonder how zergs will deal with the thor tank ghost(viking) deathball now. It was always a problem where ghosts effectively took out all infestor energy, and terran mech just stomps on everything else. Pre Patch NP would be good if you could sneak a few NP, and even EMPs dont stop channeling. Other than that, minor buff to toss to make immortals viable. Still believe terran just has too much utility and their spell casting advantage is ridiculous
You guys made your own bed. You're going to qq about the smallest things and have a developer cater to your needs so you can win every game and not put in any effort. The voices in diamond and under are very loud. It's a shame all you people ruined this game. Go back to CoD if you don't want to think.
On August 25 2011 20:14 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Really hate the hellion nerf, it just feels like everytime terran find a way to use mech (siege tanks, thors, hellions), it gets smashed into the ground by Blizzard, like they only want terrans to go marine/tank and marine/marauder. Hellions weren't even overpowered aside from arguably TvT, which doesn't really matter, just means the TvT meta-game shifts. They were just usable in TvZ and TvP, and now their only use is (once again) getting out a couple of hellions early on against zerg and "hoping your BFH drop does good damage". Oh, btw, what people "hope" will change with this change is that you won't suddenly lose 30 workers if you miscontrol during a hellion drop, well, you still will, sorry. This just means they are simply no longer viable units in your main army. Oh well, guess it's back to hating all terran matchups as they're back to turtling only
All I heard here was "wah, wah, wah, wah, durp, herp." First time zerg gets any unit that can win games like every one of your units that ended up being nerfed...and it gets DOUBLE nerfed.
On August 25 2011 20:14 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Really hate the hellion nerf, it just feels like everytime terran find a way to use mech (siege tanks, thors, hellions), it gets smashed into the ground by Blizzard, like they only want terrans to go marine/tank and marine/marauder. Hellions weren't even overpowered aside from arguably TvT, which doesn't really matter, just means the TvT meta-game shifts. They were just usable in TvZ and TvP, and now their only use is (once again) getting out a couple of hellions early on against zerg and "hoping your BFH drop does good damage". Oh, btw, what people "hope" will change with this change is that you won't suddenly lose 30 workers if you miscontrol during a hellion drop, well, you still will, sorry. This just means they are simply no longer viable units in your main army. Oh well, guess it's back to hating all terran matchups as they're back to turtling only
All I heard here was "wah, wah, wah, wah, durp, herp." First time zerg gets any unit that can win games like every one of your units that ended up being nerfed...and it gets DOUBLE nerfed.
Except for the fact that you could double produce them in Tier 2 at a cost of 100 each and that they fried all early zerg units besides queens (roaches dont count, they suck in ZvT and delay tech). Were almost as fast as speed zerglings without upgrades and had an AOE attack. I considered them being too easily thrown away. I can deflect a total of 10 hellions but if three gets in your raid will be worth it.
On September 11 2011 01:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Currently, fungal slaughters anything NP doesn't, and vice versa. There is no counter to large numbers of infestors, you simply have to win before Zerg can get there. Once they get >15-20 you are dead, period.
1 HT can feedback 4 infestors.
So 5 HT can take out 20 Infestors.
1-2 Ghosts can take out 10+ Infestors.
Infestor and HT spells have the same range, and infestors move faster. It is not possible to stop mass fungal from going off with HTs. They only need to get like 3 fungals off. If you kill 16/20 of the infestors with feedback the remaining 4 will still massacre you. Fungal's AE is massive (80% larger than that of storm) and you can't move out of it.
Show me a case where a zerg has 20 infestors, the protoss kills 16 of them and still loses to the remaining 4. You cant? Really?
Also, your "fungal is 80% larger than storm" is bogus.
I did a little test. I made 2 marine balls with combat shield. 68 marines in each. 1 HT killed 24 marines in one cast. 1 infestor killed 34 marines in two casts. Last I checked, 80% more than 24 is 43. This quick study shows that fungal growth cowers more like 40% more area than the storm, and does roughly half the damage. So, against light armor targets of infinite hp of the same size of marines (for the sake of argument here), the math is:
Storm: 80 damage times 24 marines hit for 75 energy = 25,6 damage per energy.
Fungal (currently): 36 damage times 34 marines hit for 75 energy = 16,3 damage per energy. Or vs the same, but armored units: 20,8 damage per energy.
Conclusion: What you are saying you pulled out of your ass. A psionic storm does almost twice the damage of a fungal growth in its area of effect vs light.
Now lets look at the reason you get psionic storm vs the reason you get fungal.
Storm: Primary purpose is to throw on masses of small, light units of low HP, thus dealing massive damage quickly. Sure you can move out of it, but if you're good at storming you will make sure to storm such that if the guy retreats, you gain a tactical advantage, if he pushes forward he runs into your meatgrinder army and if he stands still he dies. Does the HT serve its purpose with storm: Yes.
Fungal: Primary purpose is to a) in small numbers; gain positional advantages, kill small clumps of units that are microed poorly, punish mistakes and add support dps to the zerg army. Example: mass blinkstalker vs mass roach, blinkstalkers can kill so many roaches. But once infestors are out the added dps and the lockdown means the zerg can punish the protoss for staying on one tech for too long. b) in large numbers: roflstomps everything.
I agree that b) is a problem. But I think infestors in moderate numbers are perfectly fine. I think blizzard could find a way better method of making infestors more balanced, because I agree that mass mass mass infestor is ridiculous. But saying that "omg 4 infestors stomp an entire protoss army while HT is completely useless!" is just fucking bullshit. Add to this that energy-low HTs morph into very powerful units (that will soon be immune to NP) whilst energy-low infestors are worse than useless.
On September 11 2011 07:03 Thraundil wrote: Show me a case where a zerg has 20 infestors, the protoss kills 16 of them and still loses to the remaining 4. You cant? Really?
Dude you are missing the point completelly.... Besides the Pros agree that infestor are op so here comes the nerf hammer whether u want it or not... Toss is the worst off race and we have had adapted somehow and we still play on... Now u can do two things...adapt and play or give up and delete the game...
On September 11 2011 07:03 Thraundil wrote: Show me a case where a zerg has 20 infestors, the protoss kills 16 of them and still loses to the remaining 4. You cant? Really?
Dude you are missing the point completelly.... Besides the Pros agree that infestor are op so here comes the nerf hammer whether u want it or not... Toss is the worst off race and we have had adapted somehow and we still play on... Now u can do two things...adapt and play or give up and delete the game...
Read my post again. I specifically point out that even I think that infestors are OP. I do not think "soft removing" neural parasite is the answer. There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong.
What my point (and you quote out of context, by the way) is: That guy saying that high templars are super super super bad while in the same sentence saying that infestors are mega super overpower imba strong is wrong. Infestors are slightly too powerful, high templars are fine (and once ppl will stop bothering to get NP, surprise-storm could be fairly deadly in the late game. Roaches are slow, they will maybe dodge some of the storm but its still insanely high damage for a 150 gas unit).
Infestors need a change, yes. We will adapt. But I, along with almost everybody I know (terran and protoss players too) find that the NP nerf is unrealistically harsh and will make certain timing pushes require 100% pristine reaction, scouting and defense timing from the zerg or it will be a free autoloss.
On September 11 2011 08:14 Thraundil wrote: Roaches are slow, they will maybe dodge some of the storm but its still insanely high damage for a 150 gas unit).
i dont care how slow roaches are....they laugh at storm...thats how good they are vs storm.
On September 11 2011 08:14 Thraundil wrote: Roaches are slow, they will maybe dodge some of the storm but its still insanely high damage for a 150 gas unit).
i dont care how slow roaches are....they laugh at storm...thats how good they are vs storm.
Just like marines rape your colossi and zerglings stomp archons, right? I am wildly generalising here, but unless you put up some actual numbers, claims like this just makes you look stupid. Are storms the best vs roaches? By no means. Are storms utterly negligible? No chance. Sure, roaches can retreat and burrow to heal up. So how about chasing the roaches and killing them before they have the chance? I dare you, post a replay were the zerg and protoss are equal, and the protoss uses storms, and if you were to remove those storms completely from the equation the outcome had been the same. Go ahead, I'll look forward to seeing some hard evidence rather than wild platinum-league QQ.
On September 11 2011 08:14 Thraundil wrote: Roaches are slow, they will maybe dodge some of the storm but its still insanely high damage for a 150 gas unit).
i dont care how slow roaches are....they laugh at storm...thats how good they are vs storm.
Just like marines rape your colossi and zerglings stomp archons, right? I am wildly generalising here, but unless you put up some actual numbers, claims like this just makes you look stupid. Are storms the best vs roaches? By no means. Are storms utterly negligible? No chance. Sure, roaches can retreat and burrow to heal up. So how about chasing the roaches and killing them before they have the chance? I dare you, post a replay were the zerg and protoss are equal, and the protoss uses storms, and if you were to remove those storms completely from the equation the outcome had been the same. Go ahead, I'll look forward to seeing some hard evidence rather than wild platinum-league QQ.
Roaches with speed, which they will have, are faster than stalkers, so they are not slow. Roaches have two choices when stormed.
They can run out of it and take less damage than stalkers would, which is saying something since no one uses storm vs stalkers.
Or they can burrow, and heal 40 health while taking 80 damage worth of storm, meaning that overall they will lose 40 hp. A roach has 145 hp, so that would be more than 3 and a half storms to kill them. And that would only be if they sat and didn't move for more than 14 seconds of constant storm.
Then take into account that these roaches are some of the cheapest units in the game.
Now obviously there are other factors because you will almost never see straight HTs vs roaches in a real game, but those statistics do show that roaches are probably the worst unit in the game to try and storm.
On September 11 2011 08:30 Thraundil wrote: Just like marines rape your colossi and zerglings stomp archons, right? I am wildly generalising here, but unless you put up some actual numbers, claims like this just makes you look stupid. Are storms the best vs roaches? By no means. Are storms utterly negligible? No chance. Sure, roaches can retreat and burrow to heal up. So how about chasing the roaches and killing them before they have the chance? I dare you, post a replay were the zerg and protoss are equal, and the protoss uses storms, and if you were to remove those storms completely from the equation the outcome had been the same. Go ahead, I'll look forward to seeing some hard evidence rather than wild platinum-league QQ.
Fig is correct at what he said above...
Now, I dont need to pull numbers cos if u are a zerg, then u already know that to storm a roach is a joke without counting roaching regen speed. To say this is not true nor not to recognize this is as basic as knowing a zealot can kill a zergling. Forgive me but this does not require math or to be a rocket scientist. Toss has gone throught dramatic changes and still going throught. Since the patch is gonna produce changes, you got to adapt. Use the new units that have buff....surelly the ultra buff must be usefull...but as i said before, combine with some banes or muta or broods and some infestors...If i saw a zerg army mixed with ultras, its something i must admit i am not too confortable with cos i know how strong they are... One thing is for sure...Blizz wants to see people say "omg he has ultras" just like in the old sc1.... Just got to experiment not throw the towel before having a go....
if u still determined about the storm and roaches numbers then make a search for it in TL, i know its in here somewhere...i saw the stats with upgrades and without upgrades..as i recall u need between 4-6 storms to kill a roach and thats provided he doesnt move and stays still....
Since the patch is gonna produce changes, you got to adapt.
The patch is gonna force Zerg into the roaches/corruptor vs Deathball again, and we all know which side it favor + Like said earlier, it leave the zerg with no counter against Thor push, making me very doubtful this will go live
if u still determined about the storm and roaches numbers then make a search for it in TL, i know its in here somewhere...i saw the stats with upgrades and without upgrades..as i recall u need between 4-6 storms to kill a roach and thats provided he doesnt move and stays still....
What the hell, roaches hae 140hp, storm do 80dmg, you need 2 storm to blow up a ball of unmicroed roaches
I really don't understand how Protoss can complain about infestors when they have a unit that can literally 1-hit instant kill them from 9 range. Sure, HTs are slow. Sure, they're expensive. Sure, Fungal Growth has the same range. So what? What kind of army situation would allow the Zerg to easily abuse the microscopic bit of distance they have where they can fungal and can't be feedbacked? It happens, but it does NOT mean that HTs aren't the counter to infestors.
That's like saying vikings aren't the counter to collosi because stalkers only need to blink 3 range in before they can start firing on the Vikings. YES, it is possible to use a unit to kill its hardcounter, but that doesn't mean it's not a hardcounter. Zerglings can still kill hellions.
What do I think should be done? Well its quite simple. Part of what makes infestors super strong is the fact that zergs can "turtle up" with gasless units and then all of a sudden pop out 10 combat-ready infestors. If pathogen glands were removed, part of this would be fixed as a timing attack hitting right about when infestors usually come would be quite deadly, thus forcing zerg to think twice before blindly adding mass infestor. Protoss suffered the same fate due to HT instant-storm. If infestors had to be added little by little, I think a lot of the current sorrow over infestors would fade. Maybe a small fungal nerf to go with it as well. But to both nerf fungal growth AND remove neural parasite is taking it a step too far. Chainfungal can still handle poorly microed deathballs of protoss, but a well microed deathball (ie. spread out, not clumped up) will be very powerful now. And thor/BFH/SCV based builds in ZvT will be so hard to deal with - especially if a viking were to clean the field of overlords (the stargate could be validated due to BFH drops to keep the zerg on the defensive and attempt to force mutalisks, which the thor followup would be instant win against).
If you take away the energy upgrade for infestors ... the should have build time of 2 seconds -> just like High templar.
I think you dont get how that works. start production of infestor -> 50seconds high templar warp in -> directly on the field+50 seconds for storm to be ready
i mean, you can warp in an high templar and immediatly kill drops and infestors and other energy units. If you build an infestor ...................... you can spawn one infested terran. thats imbalanced
I feel that with the changes to neural parasite, I'm gonna feel just as frustrated as I used to while playing against protoss deathballs and terran mech. I feel like I'm gonna be pushed around for about ten to twenty minutes, do some uneven trades. Sneak a few bases and if I'm lucky, I can eek out a win. Guess I'm gonna have to try out either T or P in 1.4
i dont care how slow roaches are....they laugh at storm...thats how good they are vs storm.
Unmicroed Roaches die in 2 storms unmicroed roaches with +1 armour die in 2 storms unmicroed roaches with +2 armour die in 2 storms unmicroed roaches with +3 armour die in 2 storms
Zealots die in 5 fungals =/
If you micro, storms will hit way more targets cause roaches will run through the storm. So a single roach takes less dmg, but the dps remains the same. Burrow just works in theory. If you burrow your roaches and an observer is on the field, you lose about 1second cause of burrowing and unburrowing, and maybe another 2-3 seconds until you realize they still shoot at you + storm still deal dmg
BTW: burrowed roaches die in 3 storms.
So in theory, storms do way better against roaches than colossi do.
On September 11 2011 08:45 angra86 wrote: Does know anyone if the pre-ignighter nerf change tvt back to old marine/tank style?
a lot of people seem to think that, but i think mech will still reign supreme. helions will be slightly worse at killing scvs, but they are already really damn good at it and if they are in there, the scvs are dying regardless of 5 less damage per helion. marine tank by itself would get slaughtered by tank/red flame helion, the bio player is forced to go marauders. this nerf doesnt affect helion vs marauder. the mech army will still be incredibly cost efficient, and the helions will still tank damage in seige wars longer and more cost efficiently than marines. that said, the bio style can still win on a lot of maps unless the mech player plays perfectly. it will get a little bit stronger with this buff, but i think mech will still be standard. its a good thing as well, as mech to air is evolving into the most complex and interesting tvt we have seen yet, and mech vs bio is always incredibly tense and mechanically demanding for both players.
the neural change is fine and was needed. players shouldnt have been punished for making the most powerful units against zerg. infestors were literally good against everything, and frankly still are for the most part. the early colossi timings zergs are whining about in here were usually stopped on the pro level by fungal plus roach focus fire. colossi go down very fast when they cant be microd back. infestors already have the best spell in the game, and an incredible energy dump that can be used in battle and for harass. clearly blizzard designed neural as a situational utility spell, not something that can be spammed and completely destroy a protoss that decided to use the strong units they were given.
On September 11 2011 01:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: With protoss, shouldn't they just kill infestors that NP units? Or simply not make tons of colossus. Blizzard should give the players a chance to figure out how to deal with stuff, instead of trying to "balance the game".
Currently, fungal slaughters anything NP doesn't, and vice versa. There is no counter to large numbers of infestors, you simply have to win before Zerg can get there. Once they get >15-20 you are dead, period.
1 HT can feedback 4 infestors.
So 5 HT can take out 20 Infestors.
1-2 Ghosts can take out 10+ Infestors.
Infestor and HT spells have the same range, and infestors move faster. It is not possible to stop mass fungal from going off with HTs. They only need to get like 3 fungals off. If you kill 16/20 of the infestors with feedback the remaining 4 will still massacre you. Fungal's AE is massive (80% larger than that of storm) and you can't move out of it.
HT are cheaper and come out much faster than infestors. The range is less than 1/2 of FG vs FB, and you have to fg inefficiently to do it. More so, if you force an engagement, Zerg can't just hide his infestors, he has to use them to NP and chain fungal.
If you kill 16/20 infestors with feedback, you will fucking trash Zerg. They spent all that gas on infestors instead of banelings, roaches, hydras, corruptors, broodlords, ultras, or upgrades, and it means suddenly, that army of ling/infestor is now just pure lings... against colossi, storm, and sentries. 4 infestors is not enough to NP effectively (you need about 1.5x infestors as colossi, and it scales poorly going up against higher colossi numbers).
That's like saying Protoss will still be okay if 3/4ths of all their colossi are made useless. Come on, if Zerg could get by with 4 infestors instead of 20, don't you think they would do that, and make more roaches instead?
HT slaughter infestors, it's hilarious when Protoss say HT aren't effective. As long as you don't clump them all and leave them out in the open, Zerg can't fight Protoss head-on without losing a shitton of infestors when HT arrive.
On September 11 2011 10:21 j0ker wrote: the early colossi timings zergs are whining about in here were usually stopped on the pro level by fungal plus roach focus fire. colossi go down very fast when they cant be microd back.
So basically the zerg has infestors+roaches but the protoss was dumb and never built a sentry? Cause I don't see how the roaches even get close to the stalkers not talking colossus.
And the problem from zerg is not in early game, it's that late game 200 vs 200 you have to go corruptors now 100% (you know the only AA unit which can in no way, shape or form attack ground, which loses to void rays and which has 2/3 the range of a viking). Actually now thinking about it maybe Blizz could redesign corruption to make corruptors useful somehow (and not just an extra unit you need for broodlords).
What do I think should be done? Well its quite simple. Part of what makes infestors super strong is the fact that zergs can "turtle up" with gasless units and then all of a sudden pop out 10 combat-ready infestors. If pathogen glands were removed, part of this would be fixed as a timing attack hitting right about when infestors usually come would be quite deadly, thus forcing zerg to think twice before blindly adding mass infestor. Protoss suffered the same fate due to HT instant-storm. If infestors had to be added little by little, I think a lot of the current sorrow over infestors would fade. Maybe a small fungal nerf to go with it as well. But to both nerf fungal growth AND remove neural parasite is taking it a step too far. Chainfungal can still handle poorly microed deathballs of protoss, but a well microed deathball (ie. spread out, not clumped up) will be very powerful now. And thor/BFH/SCV based builds in ZvT will be so hard to deal with - especially if a viking were to clean the field of overlords (the stargate could be validated due to BFH drops to keep the zerg on the defensive and attempt to force mutalisks, which the thor followup would be instant win against).
If you take away the energy upgrade for infestors ... the should have build time of 2 seconds -> just like High templar.
I think you dont get how that works. start production of infestor -> 50seconds high templar warp in -> directly on the field+50 seconds for storm to be ready
i mean, you can warp in an high templar and immediatly kill drops and infestors and other energy units. If you build an infestor ...................... you can spawn one infested terran. thats imbalanced
Well, if you're averaging out spellcaster time, ghosts take a hell of a lot longer to build than HTs...
And if you caught the FXO KOTH today the match where Sarens went thor/hellion/scv 2 base timing was wrecked by just mutas...not an infestor made, coming with 2/0 and 6 thors.
So there is hope, no point in theorycrafting before we have an update, it'll only lead to tears.
On September 11 2011 10:44 Badfatpanda wrote: Well, if you're averaging out spellcaster time, ghosts take a hell of a lot longer to build than HTs...
That's the point. That's why infestors/Ghosts have energy upgrades and HTs do not. All of them take approx. 50s to get 75 energy from the moment you start building them.
comparing units and spells side by side is ridiculous. They are different and have different roles, that's all you can say for sure.
I think nearly everyone will agree that as of now, infestors are good to dominant in all matchups, against most or maybe even all compositions. That's not fun or interesting, so they get a nerf. IMO the np nerf feels wrong, unfortunately... what's left that's worth casting NP on? Tanks, maybe immortals? If the change happens, I hope the research cost AND energy cost of NP is reduced. And maybe even remove channeling? Being able to NP and run or NP multiple units would ensure that the spell is still used, even if it doesn't work on massives.
And if you caught the FXO KOTH today the match where Sarens went thor/hellion/scv 2 base timing was wrecked by just mutas... not an infestor made, coming with 2/0 and 6 thors.
Sooo, what's your point exactly? You're complaining about infestors, and for proof you point out a game in which infestors were not used.
i dont care how slow roaches are....they laugh at storm...thats how good they are vs storm.
Unmicroed Roaches die in 2 storms unmicroed roaches with +1 armour die in 2 storms unmicroed roaches with +2 armour die in 2 storms unmicroed roaches with +3 armour die in 2 storms
Zealots die in 5 fungals =/
If you micro, storms will hit way more targets cause roaches will run through the storm. So a single roach takes less dmg, but the dps remains the same. Burrow just works in theory. If you burrow your roaches and an observer is on the field, you lose about 1second cause of burrowing and unburrowing, and maybe another 2-3 seconds until you realize they still shoot at you + storm still deal dmg
BTW: burrowed roaches die in 3 storms.
So in theory, storms do way better against roaches than colossi do.
Roaches can move away from the storm. Which they always do. FG prevents movement and makes your GW units uselss. And you can chain FG due to the freeze. I would pick FG over Storm any day.
^ chaining FG is also it's weakness, it means Zerg will always lose infestors in battles (the most expensive caster of the 3 races) and highly susceptible to FB/EMP.
z: "onoes, i lost a few infestors in the process of demolishing your army and winning the game" p: "damn ur right, chain fungal is weak, infestors r balanced"
That's like saying Protoss will still be okay if 3/4ths of all their colossi are made useless
actually if you only NP 3/4ths of the colossuses, the remaining quarter can easily be microed to liberate each of the neuraled colossus. I find neural to be an all-or-none spell. I either fungal the entire army and neural every single colossus, or toss can easily micro their way out of it.
Same with terran, you have to control the tanks or else NP is useless.
On September 11 2011 11:45 Belial88 wrote: ^ chaining FG is also it's weakness, it means Zerg will always lose infestors in battles (the most expensive caster of the 3 races) and highly susceptible to FB/EMP.
um... the infestor is definetly not the most expensive spellcaster, the infestor is 100/150, while the ghost is 200/100...
On September 11 2011 11:45 Belial88 wrote: ^ chaining FG is also it's weakness, it means Zerg will always lose infestors in battles (the most expensive caster of the 3 races) and highly susceptible to FB/EMP.
um... the infestor is definetly not the most expensive spellcaster, the infestor is 100/150, while the ghost is 200/100...
Yeah, but that's only a 50 resource difference, and it's in minerals. MULES make the exchange pretty even, and gas is more 'expensive' than minerals.
On September 11 2011 07:03 Thraundil wrote: Show me a case where a zerg has 20 infestors, the protoss kills 16 of them and still loses to the remaining 4. You cant? Really?
This happens in GSL all the time, zerg has 15 infestors, colossi kill 7-8 of them before getting NPed, then colossi + fungal spam from the remaining infestor slaughter entire protoss army and zerg loses almost nothing else.
Also, your "fungal is 80% larger than storm" is bogus.
It's really not, storm has an area of effect of 7.06 (pi * 1.5^2), fungal has an area of effect of 12.56. (pi * 2^2)
On September 11 2011 10:24 Belial88 wrote: HT are cheaper and come out much faster than infestors. The range is less than 1/2 of FG vs FB, and you have to fg inefficiently to do it. More so, if you force an engagement, Zerg can't just hide his infestors, he has to use them to NP and chain fungal.
If you kill 16/20 infestors with feedback, you will fucking trash Zerg. They spent all that gas on infestors instead of banelings, roaches, hydras, corruptors, broodlords, ultras, or upgrades, and it means suddenly, that army of ling/infestor is now just pure lings... against colossi, storm, and sentries. 4 infestors is not enough to NP effectively (you need about 1.5x infestors as colossi, and it scales poorly going up against higher colossi numbers).
No you actually won't, the remaining 4 will fungal spam your army into the ground while it sits there helpless and dies. If you're massing templar in this way you don't have colossus so nothing you have can actually shoot at the infestors while they're killing you.
Remember that Protoss also needs many sentries that also take gas, you can beat just stalker/colossus easily with just pure roach, just split them up and attack from two directions. The Protoss needs sentries to split your army in half, lacking this, you can swarm down even colossi with just pure roaches.
That's like saying Protoss will still be okay if 3/4ths of all their colossi are made useless. Come on, if Zerg could get by with 4 infestors instead of 20, don't you think they would do that, and make more roaches instead?
They make that many because if a few don't die they automatically win as fungal roots everything and mass kills it. If you only make 4 you risk losing them before you can fungal the opponent to death, that's why you mass them.
HT slaughter infestors, it's hilarious when Protoss say HT aren't effective. As long as you don't clump them all and leave them out in the open, Zerg can't fight Protoss head-on without losing a shitton of infestors when HT arrive.
HTs are not effective, they are far too slow especially when you have to fight on creep and trying to feedback caster units whose spells have the same range as yours and that are moving at near double the speed yours are. Storm is not useful against the units Zerg commonly uses (roaches, brood lords) and feedback is nowhere near good enough to stop infestors from mass murdering you. Top Protoss do not even use HTs anymore against Zerg because they are just a waste of gas and a tech path. They still go for Colossus despite NP because they're a hell of a lot better than useless templar. And despite that they're still approaching 30% winrate vs Zerg so the infestor's ability to nullify colossi has to go.
funny how people think 4ht templar counter 20 infestors.
ever thought of getting 20 hightemplar too?
its like build 2 corruptor against 6 colossi and than saying colossi effing op nerf! cause thats exactly what happened here with infestors.
Now the only powerunit of zerg that can decide games is taken away, or at least nerfed really badly, because terrans and protoss are too bad to use their spellcaster properly.
We zergs had to cry almost a year until blizzard helped us. we had to change our style, make new strategies, but still we were weaker. Than infestor upgrade. Than toss and terran cried like little bitches 1 month later infestor nerf HERP DERP
There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong.
Protoss has already used every unit that takes less than 2 minutes to produce, and why the hell would you make infestors to counter archon/chargelot, if not for fungal? The protoss has HTs and the short range of the composition is for more abusable with fungal than NP. On top of that mass roach or roach baneling counters it pretty well.
Come on guys...you really expect for someone to be able to click select 20 times faster than some that click selects 4 times? Try and do it with each arm at the same time and see the difference....XD come on....Its not that they are bad at spells but its pure down how long it takes to click 4 times and how long it takes to click 20 times. Seriously try it XD...i am laughing myself as i do this with the hand atm..this is joke XD
On September 11 2011 20:46 Coopa826 wrote: funny how people think 4ht templar counter 20 infestors.
ever thought of getting 20 hightemplar too?
its like build 2 corruptor against 6 colossi and than saying colossi effing op nerf! cause thats exactly what happened here with infestors.
Now the only powerunit of zerg that can decide games is taken away, or at least nerfed really badly, because terrans and protoss are too bad to use their spellcaster properly.
We zergs had to cry almost a year until blizzard helped us. we had to change our style, make new strategies, but still we were weaker. Than infestor upgrade. Than toss and terran cried like little bitches 1 month later infestor nerf HERP DERP
learn to play you f***ing noobs
It's the same thing with HT and ghosts.
First terrans make max 1-3 ghosts and then they just die to HTs = toss imba. Then terrans learn to make 6-10 ghosts and suddenly HTs cant do shit.
Come on guys...you really expect for someone to be able to click select 20 times faster than some that click selects 4 times? Try and do it with each arm at the same time and see the difference....XD come on....Its not that they are bad at spells but its pure down how long it takes to click 4 times and how long it takes to click 20 times. Seriously try it XD...i am laughing myself as i do this with the hand atm..this is joke XD
So Infestor goes like this: Fungal click ..... wait ..... wait .... wait .... click .... wait .... wait ... click and so on. High templar goes like this: Movecommand/shiftclick feedback clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick rape gg
why dont you learn to use high templar? u never did it before and you expect to handle that spell perfectly by practicing it once?
Herp derp i cant play anything else but stalker colossus herp so pls nerf infestor herp derp same with "colossus stalker protoss player" complaining about mutas being op ......
On September 11 2011 20:46 Coopa826 wrote: funny how people think 4ht templar counter 20 infestors.
ever thought of getting 20 hightemplar too?
its like build 2 corruptor against 6 colossi and than saying colossi effing op nerf! cause thats exactly what happened here with infestors.
Now the only powerunit of zerg that can decide games is taken away, or at least nerfed really badly, because terrans and protoss are too bad to use their spellcaster properly.
We zergs had to cry almost a year until blizzard helped us. we had to change our style, make new strategies, but still we were weaker. Than infestor upgrade. Than toss and terran cried like little bitches 1 month later infestor nerf HERP DERP
learn to play you f***ing noobs
It's the same thing with HT and ghosts.
First terrans make max 1-3 ghosts and then they just die to HTs = toss imba. Then terrans learn to make 6-10 ghosts and suddenly HTs cant do shit.
you can tell me all you want...but here are the facts. ghost comes out aerlier than ht. it comes out with emp. no research needed for emp. cost difference is huge. ghost moves faster and therefore has a higher survival rate. ghost got a larger targeting range. ghost dont target, area effect ghost can cloar and strike.
And finally the win rate of terran over toss is a huge difference. Terran is the longest most successfull unit in sc2 without a doubt. The win rate of terran is over around 60%, toss is about 32% and zerg is about 53%. How many Toss are in GSL? i think about 4, how many terrans and zerg XD?
So to say toss is op by ignoring all the numbers and then call people noob. Are you trying to call MC a noob too? MC who cant stop a 111? Is Toss still op? =)
Come on guys...you really expect for someone to be able to click select 20 times faster than some that click selects 4 times? Try and do it with each arm at the same time and see the difference....XD come on....Its not that they are bad at spells but its pure down how long it takes to click 4 times and how long it takes to click 20 times. Seriously try it XD...i am laughing myself as i do this with the hand atm..this is joke XD
So Infestor goes like this: Fungal click ..... wait ..... wait .... wait .... click .... wait .... wait ... click and so on. High templar goes like this: Movecommand/shiftclick feedback clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick rape gg
why dont you learn to use high templar? u never did it before and you expect to handle that spell perfectly by practicing it once?
Herp derp i cant play anything else but stalker colossus herp so pls nerf infestor herp derp same with "colossus stalker protoss player" complaining about mutas being op ......
frantically mathematically and playing the odds probabilyty the chance the HT gets past 4 clicks before death, falls very fast XD
you give me the 20 infestors and i would love for u to beat me with 4 HTs. Not unless i got for a toilet break XD
i cant believe u r actully saying that someone that click 20 can click afster than someone that does 4...this is helerious stuff i tell ya
There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong.
Protoss has already used every unit that takes less than 2 minutes to produce, and why the hell would you make infestors to counter archon/chargelot, if not for fungal? The protoss has HTs and the short range of the composition is for more abusable with fungal than NP. On top of that mass roach or roach baneling counters it pretty well.
Zealots take a very large number of fungals to kill. In addition, with charge they will often be spread out quite alot as they dart in to engage - if infestors are in front, they will die, and if infestors are in the back fungal is not cost effective vs zealots. And as long as archons can sit in the back and do their damage, they are worth their while. Roaches and archons have similar range, and zealots to tank the damage will make the archons serve the same purpose as the colossi does in the collo/stalker ball. You need NP, a good surround or very good macro to beat this - and with protoss players learning to macro the ladder is not likely. Surrounds can be worked around from the protoss player too, leaving NP or death, I've been using this on my smurf account quite a lot and it completely wrecks zergs unless they go for a large number of infestors with NP - by right the counter to zealot/archon. But remove NP and this will no longer be the case.
I'm not saying this becomes unbeatable, but it will certainly takes its place among the large number of strong timing attack oportunities that P and T will now get vs zerg. All of which require a different response, and all of which can be hidden until the last moment. NP and fungal gave zerg a way to not rely so much on scouting. Much like for example a terran can go marine/tank and be reasonably fine, and a protoss can go gateway heavy with HT support and be reasonably fine, a zerg could go ling/infestor or roach/infestor vs a protoss and be reasonably fine. I quite frankly fear that we will return to the early days of SC2 with this change, where a zerg simply HAS to wait until the very last second to make their army, because every situation will require a specific response. This might be what the race should be (reactive and whatnot), but there are a few too many situations where this will mean for a nice and swift automatic loss that you could only really avoid by guessing correctly.
And to all the protoss derpyherpies who says that infestors are OP because 20 infestors can kill 4 HT.... come on. 1 infestor costs more than 1 HT, and if you're on the ball with your observers you should be able to send HTs in a few at a time, causing large damage with feedbacks or forcing the zerg to spend many fungals to kill a few HTs. Here is what you do: build HTs in a 1:1 ratio with the infestor, then add up with oddles and oodles of chargelot and stalker. Do this, control them well, and you will play out fairly even. Maybe with an edge to zerg, as tournament evidence suggests, but you guys are all making this way worse than it is. 4 infestors kill your entire army? What was that army composed of, 10 stalkers and nothing else? There are so many ways to handle this, but instead of trying to find a way you sit back and cry. It is true infestors needs a nerf from their current state, but I absolutely still disagree on the NP nerf, and to listen to all you protoss crybabies whine that the NP nerf is justified because fungal is OP is ridiculous. Consider that if NP is not even the issue, then why is there a need to remove it? I simply cannot wrap my mind around this decision from blizzard...
On September 11 2011 22:57 Thraundil wrote: And to all the protoss derpyherpies who says that infestors are OP because 20 infestors can kill 4 HT.... come on. 1 infestor costs more than 1 HT, and if you're on the ball with your observers you should be able to send HTs in a few at a time, causing large damage with feedbacks or forcing the zerg to spend many fungals to kill a few HTs. Here is what you do: build HTs in a 1:1 ratio with the infestor, then add up with oddles and oodles of chargelot and stalker. Do this, control them well, and you will play out fairly even. Maybe with an edge to zerg, as tournament evidence suggests, but you guys are all making this way worse than it is. 4 infestors kill your entire army? What was that army composed of, 10 stalkers and nothing else? There are so many ways to handle this, but instead of trying to find a way you sit back and cry. It is true infestors needs a nerf from their current state, but I absolutely still disagree on the NP nerf, and to listen to all you protoss crybabies whine that the NP nerf is justified because fungal is OP is ridiculous. Consider that if NP is not even the issue, then why is there a need to remove it? I simply cannot wrap my mind around this decision from blizzard...
I'm sorry, this doesn't work at all. There's no way you can get close to his infestor count with your HT count. And yes, 4 infestors can kill your entire army. 8 fungals will erase 100 supply of units, I've had it happen countless times. The AE is large and you can't move away, and fungaled units can't take advantage of their range advantage over roaches, allowing the roaches to move in and rape face.
1. Zerg always has (and is designed to always have) more resources than you. 2. You need sentries, which eat up a lot of gas. If you don't have sentries, even if your HTs explode every single infestor he has before they cast a single spell, you're still getting annihilated. Roaches have basically the same durability (15 less HP, but armor applies to all of it and they regen in combat) as a stalker, only 15% less DPS, (against armored, they actually do less DPS against unarmored) and cost half. Zealots do even worse against roaches than stalkers. The primary problem with roaches is larva availability to morph large numbers of them, but if you've made a lot of infestors to his HTs, it no longer becomes a problem. 3. HTs are incredibly slow. I can tell when people don't play Protoss because they constantly suggest strats that ignore this. You cannot send your HTs out alone to try and preemptively land their spells, like you can with ghosts or infestors. They are way, WAY too goddamn slow for this to work. If you try this, the Zerg can best case just move his infestors back out of range and send some roaches to pick them off, worst case sent in 3 sacrificial infestors to fungal/die and erase your entire HT blob. You must move your army with your HTs which exposes it to fungal and NP. It's not like ghosts with EMP that can charge straight at the Protoss army and get the EMP off on the templar before dying, this works because the HTs are too slow to get away. Infestors on creep are faster than stalkers, you cannot get feedback off on infestors against anyone not retarded without your army supporting them, which gives them plenty of opportunity to spam their spells. Especially NP, which you can't prevent with feedback at all.
There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong.
Protoss has already used every unit that takes less than 2 minutes to produce, and why the hell would you make infestors to counter archon/chargelot, if not for fungal? The protoss has HTs and the short range of the composition is for more abusable with fungal than NP. On top of that mass roach or roach baneling counters it pretty well.
Zealots take a very large number of fungals to kill. In addition, with charge they will often be spread out quite alot as they dart in to engage - if infestors are in front, they will die, and if infestors are in the back fungal is not cost effective vs zealots. And as long as archons can sit in the back and do their damage, they are worth their while. Roaches and archons have similar range, and zealots to tank the damage will make the archons serve the same purpose as the colossi does in the collo/stalker ball. You need NP, a good surround or very good macro to beat this - and with protoss players learning to macro the ladder is not likely. Surrounds can be worked around from the protoss player too, leaving NP or death, I've been using this on my smurf account quite a lot and it completely wrecks zergs unless they go for a large number of infestors with NP - by right the counter to zealot/archon. But remove NP and this will no longer be the case.
I'm not saying this becomes unbeatable, but it will certainly takes its place among the large number of strong timing attack oportunities that P and T will now get vs zerg. All of which require a different response, and all of which can be hidden until the last moment. NP and fungal gave zerg a way to not rely so much on scouting. Much like for example a terran can go marine/tank and be reasonably fine, and a protoss can go gateway heavy with HT support and be reasonably fine, a zerg could go ling/infestor or roach/infestor vs a protoss and be reasonably fine. I quite frankly fear that we will return to the early days of SC2 with this change, where a zerg simply HAS to wait until the very last second to make their army, because every situation will require a specific response. This might be what the race should be (reactive and whatnot), but there are a few too many situations where this will mean for a nice and swift automatic loss that you could only really avoid by guessing correctly.
And to all the protoss derpyherpies who says that infestors are OP because 20 infestors can kill 4 HT.... come on. 1 infestor costs more than 1 HT, and if you're on the ball with your observers you should be able to send HTs in a few at a time, causing large damage with feedbacks or forcing the zerg to spend many fungals to kill a few HTs. Here is what you do: build HTs in a 1:1 ratio with the infestor, then add up with oddles and oodles of chargelot and stalker. Do this, control them well, and you will play out fairly even. Maybe with an edge to zerg, as tournament evidence suggests, but you guys are all making this way worse than it is. 4 infestors kill your entire army? What was that army composed of, 10 stalkers and nothing else? There are so many ways to handle this, but instead of trying to find a way you sit back and cry. It is true infestors needs a nerf from their current state, but I absolutely still disagree on the NP nerf, and to listen to all you protoss crybabies whine that the NP nerf is justified because fungal is OP is ridiculous. Consider that if NP is not even the issue, then why is there a need to remove it? I simply cannot wrap my mind around this decision from blizzard...
jeez man... I can come up with a similar set of circumbstances.... At the end the statistic dont lie... we as toss are at the very buttom level of the wining rate. The gap betwene toss and zerg is large and toss and terran well, you know that now..... Blink is getting nerfed. A blink thats very ussefull against a 111. I am getting a buff for a immortal thats gonna make my job not any easier vs 111 cos i can do much much better with blink vs 111 rathr than immortal. And yet do you hear me going bananas over it? No. I am still trying my ass off even when i cant go lower than the bottom. XD Try. Adapt, Change. If you think half a minute later blink is not a big problem or a big deal for toss well vs a 111..... Dont throw the towell before the match starts
There are yet unexplored builds out of protoss, and the removal of neural parasite will make archon/chargelot VERY strong.
Protoss has already used every unit that takes less than 2 minutes to produce, and why the hell would you make infestors to counter archon/chargelot, if not for fungal? The protoss has HTs and the short range of the composition is for more abusable with fungal than NP. On top of that mass roach or roach baneling counters it pretty well.
Zealots take a very large number of fungals to kill. In addition, with charge they will often be spread out quite alot as they dart in to engage - if infestors are in front, they will die, and if infestors are in the back fungal is not cost effective vs zealots. And as long as archons can sit in the back and do their damage, they are worth their while. Roaches and archons have similar range, and zealots to tank the damage will make the archons serve the same purpose as the colossi does in the collo/stalker ball. You need NP, a good surround or very good macro to beat this - and with protoss players learning to macro the ladder is not likely. Surrounds can be worked around from the protoss player too, leaving NP or death, I've been using this on my smurf account quite a lot and it completely wrecks zergs unless they go for a large number of infestors with NP - by right the counter to zealot/archon. But remove NP and this will no longer be the case.
I'm not saying this becomes unbeatable, but it will certainly takes its place among the large number of strong timing attack oportunities that P and T will now get vs zerg. All of which require a different response, and all of which can be hidden until the last moment. NP and fungal gave zerg a way to not rely so much on scouting. Much like for example a terran can go marine/tank and be reasonably fine, and a protoss can go gateway heavy with HT support and be reasonably fine, a zerg could go ling/infestor or roach/infestor vs a protoss and be reasonably fine. I quite frankly fear that we will return to the early days of SC2 with this change, where a zerg simply HAS to wait until the very last second to make their army, because every situation will require a specific response. This might be what the race should be (reactive and whatnot), but there are a few too many situations where this will mean for a nice and swift automatic loss that you could only really avoid by guessing correctly.
And to all the protoss derpyherpies who says that infestors are OP because 20 infestors can kill 4 HT.... come on. 1 infestor costs more than 1 HT, and if you're on the ball with your observers you should be able to send HTs in a few at a time, causing large damage with feedbacks or forcing the zerg to spend many fungals to kill a few HTs. Here is what you do: build HTs in a 1:1 ratio with the infestor, then add up with oddles and oodles of chargelot and stalker. Do this, control them well, and you will play out fairly even. Maybe with an edge to zerg, as tournament evidence suggests, but you guys are all making this way worse than it is. 4 infestors kill your entire army? What was that army composed of, 10 stalkers and nothing else? There are so many ways to handle this, but instead of trying to find a way you sit back and cry. It is true infestors needs a nerf from their current state, but I absolutely still disagree on the NP nerf, and to listen to all you protoss crybabies whine that the NP nerf is justified because fungal is OP is ridiculous. Consider that if NP is not even the issue, then why is there a need to remove it? I simply cannot wrap my mind around this decision from blizzard...
^^This Couldn't say it better myself !! You also have to account for the NP nerf affecting the ZvT matchup. Before a meching terran had to consider the fact that if you made a lot of thors I can neural them and let me tell you thor is a good counter to thor, but now all terran has to do is harass with BFH, siege some tanks for defense and mass thors, once Terran gets a critical mass of thors the zerg is likely dead without neural as nothing in the ground or air can destroy them and broodlords would not kill that many that fast (if you ever get the chance to get a hive), specially if a competent terran starts to focus fire the blords. I know infestors are kind OP right now, even though I've seen toss adapting way better now to the ling/infestor comp by using chargelot/archon so I guess we need to let the game develop a lot more before doing all these changes but the fungal nerf is ok as now you have to kill them with things other than fungal so is a bit more fair. But I fear the days of mass roach/corruptor ZvP are upon us once again and makes my heart cry
I want fungal growth to be nerfed! I absolutely do. I hate how dependant zerg is on one single unit (you guessed it - infestors). They should and will be nerfed with the fungal growth, because its far too powerful in masses as it is.
But you guys HAVE to agree that the neural parasite change is retarded.
In exchange I will agree (as I already said) that high templars are not as strong as they maybe should be. I believe they are made "weak" on purpose since they morph into archons which are a very strong bonus unit. This is blizzards fault. But you absolutely have to agree that "softremoving" neural parasite will send zerg straight to the bottom (where you complain protoss is at the moment) - and you simply cant argue for balance, and then find that OK at the same time. NP is the counter to massive units. Oh no! They serve their purpose - nerf nerf. This is NOT the correct solution.
worst case sent in 3 sacrificial infestors to fungal/die and erase your entire HT blob.
what possible reason is there to EVER keep your HT in a blob... AAAWW QQ I PLAY LIKE A NOOB THEN LOSE QQ
Especially NP, which you can't prevent with feedback at all.
I am boggled how consistently protoss in these threads ignore phoenix as a response to maaasss infestor w NP...and before u say that fungal counters that, learn to do some basic spreading of your units and get back to me. as far as opportunity cost, 1 cronoed stargate gets u 5 phoenix pretty quick, while stargate is pretty much never bad lategame pvz as voids counter zerg t3 basically singlehandedly.
#EDIT I aslo fail to see how protoss player decided that the best formation for a lategame army is a BALL (the formation your units form with ZERO micro) as opposed to and ARC, which accomplishes as good or better surface area while also spreading your units vs fungal... but oh wait, that takes micro beyond 1GfSHIFTclickclickclickclickclick
On September 12 2011 01:21 Thraundil wrote: Guys! Especially you protoss types.
I want fungal growth to be nerfed! I absolutely do. I hate how dependant zerg is on one single unit (you guessed it - infestors). They should and will be nerfed with the fungal growth, because its far too powerful in masses as it is.
But you guys HAVE to agree that the neural parasite change is retarded.
In exchange I will agree (as I already said) that high templars are not as strong as they maybe should be. I believe they are made "weak" on purpose since they morph into archons which are a very strong bonus unit. This is blizzards fault. But you absolutely have to agree that "softremoving" neural parasite will send zerg straight to the bottom (where you complain protoss is at the moment) - and you simply cant argue for balance, and then find that OK at the same time. NP is the counter to massive units. Oh no! They serve their purpose - nerf nerf. This is NOT the correct solution.
i understand and partially agree. The point is that i believe Blizz wants zerg to start adding ultras perhaps in convo with somthing, maybe evne infestors....I believe this is the reason for the buff of ultra and nerf of neutral parasite...one things is for sure...Blizz wnts zerg to use more ultras and be less dependant on infestors...
On September 12 2011 01:42 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: I am boggled how consistently protoss in these threads ignore phoenix as a response to maaasss infestor w NP...and before u say that fungal counters that, learn to do some basic spreading of your units and get back to me. as far as opportunity cost, 1 cronoed stargate gets u 5 phoenix pretty quick, while stargate is pretty much never bad lategame pvz as voids counter zerg t3 basically singlehandedly.
#EDIT I aslo fail to see how protoss player decided that the best formation for a lategame army is a BALL (the formation your units form with ZERO micro) as opposed to and ARC, which accomplishes as good or better surface area while also spreading your units vs fungal... but oh wait, that takes micro beyond 1GfSHIFTclickclickclickclickclick
"Spreading your units" isn't going to work too well if he has 15-20 infestors and you invested in phoenixes instead of HTs or colossi to counter. He can mass shit fungal everywhere, and doesn't need to catch more than 3-4 phoenixes at a time to easily shut them all down. Or he can just spawn 40 infested terrans, your phoenixes will melt in seconds.
Investing in Phoenixes is bad. You MIGHT catch Z completely off-guard and do some decent damage, but you're running a HUGE gamble. If your huge phoenix investment doesn't pay massive dividends, you just lost the game.
Considering Infestors cost more and take longer to build than HT, I don't understand how people can just totally downplay how hard actually GETTING 20 infestors is.
Think about this, if I have 20 infestors and you only have 4 HT, your army should be MASSIVELY bigger than mine. Split your damn army, drop a few storms and macro harder. Send a small pack of fast units like chargelots on a flank to kill infestors. Either he wastes units or fungals taking care of the infestor assassin squads, or he uses them on your army and loses his infestors. Infestors die super fast and easy to ANYTHING. You just have to position your army better and not QQ when you get outmacroed.
On September 12 2011 02:57 Reithan wrote: Investing in Phoenixes is bad. You MIGHT catch Z completely off-guard and do some decent damage, but you're running a HUGE gamble. If your huge phoenix investment doesn't pay massive dividends, you just lost the game.
Considering Infestors cost more and take longer to build than HT, I don't understand how people can just totally downplay how hard actually GETTING 20 infestors is.
Think about this, if I have 20 infestors and you only have 4 HT, your army should be MASSIVELY bigger than mine. Split your damn army, drop a few storms and macro harder. Send a small pack of fast units like chargelots on a flank to kill infestors. Either he wastes units or fungals taking care of the infestor assassin squads, or he uses them on your army and loses his infestors. Infestors die super fast and easy to ANYTHING. You just have to position your army better and not QQ when you get outmacroed.
I never said it was easy. If it was easy, Protoss would be winning 0% of their games, not 30%. The issue with the infestors is it's a huge ticking clock. Every second the game goes allows the Zerg to increase their infestor count until they eventually have enough that nothing you do matters anymore. They result in Protoss having no late game against Zerg whatsoever. Combine that with the fact that they also have no early game, and they completely rely on midgame 2-base timing attacks or taking a really risky fast third and trying to close the game out there. If Zerg saturates a fourth, well it doesn't matter anymore if you have a fourth too, or even a fifth, game is over, you lose.
On September 12 2011 02:57 Reithan wrote: Investing in Phoenixes is bad. You MIGHT catch Z completely off-guard and do some decent damage, but you're running a HUGE gamble. If your huge phoenix investment doesn't pay massive dividends, you just lost the game.
That's not true at all. ZeNEXYong explored using Phoenix to break NP against Nerchio in the TL Open final game. It's a very viable strategy that Protoss have only just barely began to explore and now WHOOP guess we can chuck that strategy out the window since nobody will bother researching NP any more.
On September 12 2011 02:57 Reithan wrote: Investing in Phoenixes is bad. You MIGHT catch Z completely off-guard and do some decent damage, but you're running a HUGE gamble. If your huge phoenix investment doesn't pay massive dividends, you just lost the game.
Considering Infestors cost more and take longer to build than HT, I don't understand how people can just totally downplay how hard actually GETTING 20 infestors is.
Think about this, if I have 20 infestors and you only have 4 HT, your army should be MASSIVELY bigger than mine. Split your damn army, drop a few storms and macro harder. Send a small pack of fast units like chargelots on a flank to kill infestors. Either he wastes units or fungals taking care of the infestor assassin squads, or he uses them on your army and loses his infestors. Infestors die super fast and easy to ANYTHING. You just have to position your army better and not QQ when you get outmacroed.
I must say I agree entirely on the fact of if you invest to heavily in Phoenixes you lose unless you catch the zerg entirely off guard but what you said about flanking is absolutely absurd. For protoss to be able to flank the zerg has to have zero map presence not know at all that 10 zealots are camped right where their army is going. Zealots arent fast units at all (not like zerglings) and the zerg doesnt only have the option of fungaling either the zealots or the army... why not both its not too difficult. I find that the fungal growth nerf was deserved... basically like a storm that doesnt allow you to move... but i disagree aswell with the neural parasite nerf. every Race has some aspect of an army that must be microed better than the other race to win the battle. (in a perfectly even fight). IMO zerg needs the neural parasite to counter mass colosus voidray or some other deadly type combinations that protoss players have. If you aren't able to use infestors or ht's... its pretty simple just dont use em. Many protoss players use high templars effectively but the skill level required to position them correctly is beyond even many masters level players due to the slow movement of the HT's.
I think zerg's should stop QQ'ing about protoss players whining, we're not. Please stop saying that protoss players dont know how to position HT's. How would you guys like getting infestor speed nerfed from 2.25 to 1.875 and their size so much smaller so they can get hit by much more aoe effects??? Then i guess we would start hearing some real whining . I agree that the NP nerf is ridiculous and is not needed but this Fungal growth was very much needed.
This happens in GSL all the time, zerg has 15 infestors, colossi kill 7-8 of them before getting NPed, then colossi + fungal spam from the remaining infestor slaughter entire protoss army and zerg loses almost nothing else.
No, don't make shit up please. There was only 2 series where Zerg had gotten infestors against Colossi, both with DRG, and in both series DRG took a super fast third against Protoss and won because of a huge macro lead with that, not because of infestors. There was a GSTL game where Leenock made infestors vs colossi.. and oh yea, he lost. There was a single other series where Zerg got infestors, and didn't take a fast third (leenock vs alicia), but Alicia never made colossi.
No you actually won't, the remaining 4 will fungal spam your army into the ground while it sits there helpless and dies. If you're massing templar in this way you don't have colossus so nothing you have can actually shoot at the infestors while they're killing you.
With 4 infestors you might have 6 FG. It takes about 12 to kill colosi? And yea, if you don't have colossus, you're going to be in trouble. That's like crying that marines without support get shredded by storm.
Remember that Protoss also needs many sentries that also take gas, you can beat just stalker/colossus easily with just pure roach, just split them up and attack from two directions. The Protoss needs sentries to split your army in half, lacking this, you can swarm down even colossi with just pure roaches.
This is heavily map dependent. It also depends on Protoss' playstyle. Roaches will never kill stalker/colossi unless they have a huge macro advantage, in which case Zerg has already won the game. Similarly, if Protoss gets a macro advantage...
HTs are not effective, they are far too slow especially when you have to fight on creep and trying to feedback caster units whose spells have the same range as yours and that are moving at near double the speed yours are. Storm is not useful against the units Zerg commonly uses (roaches, brood lords) and feedback is nowhere near good enough to stop infestors from mass murdering you. Top Protoss do not even use HTs anymore against Zerg because they are just a waste of gas and a tech path. They still go for Colossus despite NP because they're a hell of a lot better than useless templar. And despite that they're still approaching 30% winrate vs Zerg so the infestor's ability to nullify colossi has to go.
Top protoss always use HT against infestors, you don't make any sense. Maybe I'm just a scrub, but at high Masters my infestors get FB'd all the time, and I assure you micro them with all the dilligence in the world. Storm is perfectly useful against Zerg, particularly the units Zerg has with infestors (lings and banes).
There are lots of replays where White-Ra goes stalker/colossi and adds HT when he sees infestors, and he manages to FB them many times. He uses positioning with observers to snipe a few, as well as splitting them up in his own army when he engages.
Infestors make the game all about positioning. Zerg rely on infestors so much because it's our stalker/marine. It's what our hydralisk is supposed to be. It's a versatile unit. Without the infestor, Zerg has no counter to blink, colossi, or archons, until t3. And Zerg will often die if they try to go to hive too quickly, like before 4 bases. Either Zerg's specialized units need a buff (hydras lose to phoenix, mutas aren't great against robo when there's a bunch of stalkers, baneling rain can be micro'd out of) or the infestor needs to stay the way it is.
On September 10 2011 03:22 Onos wrote: Ok, before all the protoss keep trying to compare the HT nerf to infestors/ghosts. The reason HT lost amulets was due to warp gate mechanic. Assuming no current production it takes the following amount of time before a caster has 75 energy.
Infestor: 50s - production time Ghost: 40s - production time High Templar - 5s (warp in time) + (25/0.5625) = 5s+44.4s = 49.4s
So from the moment you start building a caster to the moment it has 75 energy it is almost the same time (ghosts are slightly faster - maybe to compensate for tech lab required, dunno)
Also note that most zerg agree that infestors needed some nerfs but zerg needs some form of AA buff.
And just for the fun of it for the poster above me (by the time I wrote this 2 above me).
Let's see what a collosus does:
Huge range Sees up clifs Moves up and down clifs Scales awesome with upgrades
and it's main disadvantage is that it forces AA units from the enemy.
Those numbers are unmoving though... HTs are by far the most vulnerable of all the casters... hell the other two casters even go invisible. So you have a unit that is exposed to being killed for 49.4 seconds before casting its primary spell and its more vulnerable than any other units in the game... literally. One of the posts above says something about the difference between KA removal and this NP change is they are removing a spell from the game when KA is just an upgrade... to that I say... with the rationale people use about how long it takes to gather storm energy balancing it out with other casters, blizzard effectively removed the ability to warp an entire unit in with warpgates. I would much rather have KA upgrade in the game and not be able to build templars with warpgates.
On September 12 2011 03:21 CBNMystery wrote:I agree that the NP nerf is ridiculous and is not needed but this Fungal growth was very much needed.
I never said it wasn't FG nerf probably was needed. If anything, they could just revert to the old Fungal, 8 seconds, shitty dps.
But, as noted by a few other people, the majority of Z's units just suck. Either due to cost inefficiency, food inefficiency, size, speed, pathing...one thing or another makes nearly every unit we have really really bad.
The infestor is the only good versatile unit we have and the only answer we have at ALL to some situations. So, yes, until that situation changes you'll probably keep seeing a LOT of infestors, even if they're nerfed.
Maybe if blizz made the ultra less retarded, or the hydra faster, cheaper OR stronger, or if the roach was 1 or 1.5 food instead of 2, or if a million other things, then you'll see infestors become less prevalent...until then, zerg will probably keep massing them, nerf or no nerf. And the NP nerf will hurt zerg a LOT.
Not to mention I don't understand how protoss players are crying out about this so much, as the currently UP race, you'd think you want to see Terran nerfed, or toss buffed, why try to get the other non-terran race kicked, too? If you keep crying for zerg nerf, pretty soon terran will be the only playable race.
the problem is that FG and NP is meant to help you get a small edge, not win the battle completelly without loosing almost no units.... is very similar as before when toss had storm amulate. The storm rained from the sky and toss was able to win almost all battles with little units losts....And rightly so it was nerfed.. This is the exact same thing... Its ok get and edge but when it becomes spam, then there is a problem specially when the spam comes from a unit that comes out earlier than HT...
On September 12 2011 08:50 cbueno wrote: the problem is that FG and NP is meant to help you get a small edge, not win the battle completelly without loosing almost no units.... is very similar as before when toss had storm amulate. The storm rained from the sky and toss was able to win almost all battles with little units losts....And rightly so it was nerfed.. This is the exact same thing... Its ok get and edge but when it becomes spam, then there is a problem specially when the spam comes from a unit that comes out earlier than HT...
That's not true and...that's not true.
First of all where has Blizzard ever stated how FG and NP were "intended" to be used? Please, provide some proof to back that statement up.
Secondly, no, Protoss were not absolutely dominating everybody with their warp-in-storms and in fact most of the community was a bit surprised that Blizzard removed Amulet at all, but Protoss was not generally considered to be OP at all. All I do know is that after the nerf the time it takes to get Ghosts, HT, and Infestors out and ready to cast a spell all became balanced so I guess Blizz did the right thing.
I've personally always felt like Infestors were too strong and filled too many roles, yes they should be nerfed in a few ways I have no problem with that. What I DO have a problem with is that I've also previously said that if Blizzard ever significantly nerfs Infestors they better fix Hydras and Corruptors to balance things out, yet we get nothing in the aftermath. It's a bad joke, if these nerfs make it to patch there is no way I'm gonna keep playing Zerg until they are fixed.
In reading the pro-NP-nerf comments, I can't help but see my own frustration in playing against terran mech or Colossus deathballs.
They're incredibly strong, resilient and powerful compositions that are hard to stop, hard to engage, and dangerous to avoid. Infestor-based Zerg compositions are the same way... but is that a bad thing? Are we supposed to be limited to sending waves and waves of roach/hydra/corruptor to die to his stalker/sentry/colossus and try win using our "ability to remax fast"? Are we supposed to just get slaughtered by the extreme dps of thors supported by the tanking and frying blue flame hellions as a smattering of ravens/banshees pick off even further units without hope of losing them?
They're not easy to hold, they're not supposed to be easy. These power units are supposed to be power units, and hoping infestors get nerfed into unplayability is like hoping the game gets to a point where you can win 75% of your XvZs simply because you actually have power units, and they do not.
If you're one of the ones crying Infestor imba, take a look at how many times you've got to forcefield / colossus your way across the middle of the map in an unstoppable, hopeless push... or meticulously manage your marine/tank/medevac as you claim every square inch of space between their base and yours. Think of those moments and think about how fucking imbalanced they'd feel for the person on the recieving end getting slaughtered by cost efficience and control. Please, please notice the distinct paralells between those two pushes and the use of infestors.
"If there are 20 infestors out on the field and they fungal and NP, you lose"
That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
You guys are comparing the spellcasters of the three different races with each other. IMO, this isn't right. Each caster, although a spellcaster, serves a different purpose. Infestors provide an answer to the massing of massive units. It serves to make T/P think twice about moving around with 5+ Thors/Colossi.
Instead of finding solutions there's a lot of whining. What can T do to nullify infestors? Well, ghosts have EMP and snipe. Both can nullify/kill infestors. However, P gets the short end of the stick on this. All they have are HT, which are notoriously slow. However, I do have to say that if you let ALL your colossi get NP'd, and you don't do anything about it, you have bigger problems than NP itself.
who even uses colo/stalker/sentry deathballs anymore? I can't remember the last time I saw it in GSL, it's difficult to reach without falling way behind, it can be beaten handily by some combination of roach/infestor/banedrop or mutas locking you into your base (oh and it's waaaay too easy to lose your entire sentry squad to a couple of surprise fungals in the early/midgame). PvZ right now seems to be all about some form of gateway attack around 8-12 min, with often some stargate units thrown in. Colossi only seem to get built if the game goes past that, and only sometimes.
NP is kinda bad vs colo anyways, I mean cmon, the infestors are almost always going to die to some combination of thermal lance/blink/feedback.
The real effect of NP not working on massives in PvZ is that archon/zlot will be useable.
On September 12 2011 12:20 PenguinWithNuke wrote: Here's what I'm seeing in this thread:
"If there are 20 infestors out on the field and they fungal and NP, you lose"
That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
You guys are comparing the spellcasters of the three different races with each other. IMO, this isn't right. Each caster, although a spellcaster, serves a different purpose. Infestors provide an answer to the massing of massive units. It serves to make T/P think twice about moving around with 5+ Thors/Colossi.
Instead of finding solutions there's a lot of whining. What can T do to nullify infestors? Well, ghosts have EMP and snipe. Both can nullify/kill infestors. However, P gets the short end of the stick on this. All they have are HT, which are notoriously slow. However, I do have to say that if you let ALL your colossi get NP'd, and you don't do anything about it, you have bigger problems than NP itself.
20 infestors is... not a paltry sum of gas by any means, but not that gas intensive either. In fact, in drawn out ZvP's I can usually get up to that number because I actively seek to save infestors during the big engagements.
20 infestors is... not a paltry sum of gas by any means, but not that gas intensive either. In fact, in drawn out ZvP's I can usually get up to that number because I actively seek to save infestors during the big engagements.
Huh? Infestors are extremely gas intensive. You might as well say 30 mutas is not gas intensive, or 10 colossi are not gas intensive.
I don't think the barracks +5 build time can be justified generally, my orbital command is made straight after my rax with a few seconds of not building an scv
this additional 5 second void will have me awkwardly waiting for my barracks to finish when in the meantime no scv's are being made (approximately 7 seconds just sittin there)
furthermore 5 seconds is a potential 5 energy from the orbital - gone.
This has probably already been mentioned, just wanted to flame a bit. Speaking of flames, i think the bfh nerf is absolutely fine
who even uses colo/stalker/sentry deathballs anymore? I can't remember the last time I saw it in GSL, it's difficult to reach without falling way behind, it can be beaten handily by some combination of roach/infestor/banedrop or mutas locking you into your base (oh and it's waaaay too easy to lose your entire sentry squad to a couple of surprise fungals in the early/midgame). PvZ right now seems to be all about some form of gateway attack around 8-12 min, with often some stargate units thrown in. Colossi only seem to get built if the game goes past that, and only sometimes..
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
On September 12 2011 12:20 PenguinWithNuke wrote: That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
Zergs were designed to be a race that can get a macro-advantage unless the opponent plays a heavy, heavy pressure-style. The thing is, protoss never really had a build that was able to both apply pressure and not be completely all-in. The reason for that was/is that you can't afford to lose your sentries in midgame. If you attack with your sentries, you either win with them, or you lose them which more or less equals losing the game too.
This is why the protoss 3 base turtle style came up. Zerg always had absurd supply-leads, but they failed to capitalize. Mainly because the grotesque QQ of IdrA and others proved to be an obstacle that apparently prevented many zergs from trying out new stuff. I've seen quite a lot of korean games where heavy nydus play and sudden muta-switches were used vs the bunker-deathball-style.
Now with the infestor-buff, zergs are competitive (read: have the advantage) in BOTH of the aforementioned aspects. They still have the macro-advantage: if you go 3 gate expo, zerg drones up on 2 base faster than you. if you go FFE, zerg gets a quick third. I've never, ever seen a game where a competent zerg that a) doesn't get all-in-ed b) ends up with fewer drones than toss in midgame. We toss-players accept that as part of the design-choice of Blizz as to how this match-up will play out. Nevertheless, with strong infestors, our deathball is now ALSO weaker than the zerg-deathball! You say "letting zerg get xyz..." - remember, this is EXACTLY how protoss-players talked to zerg. "If you let protoss get xyz..." - what's the difference? The difference is, that previously zergs were able to literally take the whole map while the toss was restrained/contained on 3 bases. How on earth am I supposed to "not let zerg get xyz..." when zerg has an inherent macro-advantage already by design? Overall, either of two things must happen to re-balance PvZ, which had a worse win-% for toss than PvT in last GSL: a) "Give toss a strong midgame that is not all-in and that can put real pressure on droning zergs." Very unlikely, I have no idea how this could ever work with the given sets of units. You can't buff void rays, phoenixes, DTs, or w/e, so until HotS, where I expect some major design-changes, we are stuck with the current overall PvZ metagame. b) "Give toss the stronger maxed-out deathball:" and this is what we see now. If you put toss at the macro-disadvantage throughout midgame, they really "have" to have the stronger 200/200 ball. Even with the very minor infestor-change I somewhat doubt that it will pan out that way, since infestor/broodlord an remaxing on only roach while toss tries to get the counter to infestor/broodlord will still be incredibly strong. Nevertheless the P-deathball-buff/Z-deathball-nerf is required by the current way PvZ puts restraints on the set of possible protoss strategies.
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
No it isn't, wtf? Infestors are horrible in ZvT, the reason you don't see BC's is the same reason you didn't see them before the infestor buff, the same reason you didn't see them in BW ZvT - Zerg anti-capital is too strong, and siege tanks are better.
Protoss can get HT, or they can simply micro and get rid of NP (Losira vs Genius Xel Naga Fortress, for example, he counters the infestors by expanding immediately and then out-macroing an opening thats' extremely expensive).
It's annoying when people insist Infestors are so great. They are expensive as well, take a fast third, and you can outmacro Zerg spending so much on tech, or just get HT and feedback. Every single pro game where Protoss gets HT to FB infestors, he does so just fine, so no "fg > fb" please, because that's ridiculous when colossi exist to force engagements where infestors have to get close to FG, and you can split the much cheaper caster (which one can kill 4 infestors with).
Mainly because the grotesque QQ of IdrA and others proved to be an obstacle that apparently prevented many zergs from trying out new stuff. I've seen quite a lot of korean games where heavy nydus play and sudden muta-switches were used vs the bunker-deathball-style
Let me guess - you don't play Zerg. Nydus is horrible (drops are better). Muta switches are okay, but they cost a lot of money and require your first army dying, and somehow not getting killed the time you have no army and when mutas pop.
Now with the infestor-buff, zergs are competitive (read: have the advantage) in BOTH of the aforementioned aspects. They still have the macro-advantage: if you go 3 gate expo, zerg drones up on 2 base faster than you. if you go FFE, zerg gets a quick third. I've never, ever seen a game where a competent zerg that a) doesn't get all-in-ed b) ends up with fewer drones than toss in midgame. We toss-players accept that as part of the design-choice of Blizz as to how this match-up will play out. Nevertheless, with strong infestors, our deathball is now ALSO weaker than the zerg-deathball! You say "letting zerg get xyz..." - remember, this is EXACTLY how protoss-players talked to zerg. "If you let protoss get xyz..." - what's the difference? The difference is, that previously zergs were able to literally take the whole map while the toss was restrained/contained on 3 bases. How on earth am I supposed to "not let zerg get xyz..." when zerg has an inherent macro-advantage already by design? Overall, either of two things must happen to re-balance PvZ, which had a worse win-% for toss than PvT in last GSL: a) "Give toss a strong midgame that is not all-in and that can put real pressure on droning zergs." Very unlikely, I have no idea how this could ever work with the given sets of units. You can't buff void rays, phoenixes, DTs, or w/e, so until HotS, where I expect some major design-changes, we are stuck with the current overall PvZ metagame.
Zerg needs to be a base ahead of Protoss to be even. So 2 base vs 2 base is an advantage to Protoss. What's more, chronoboost keeps Protoss worker count pretty even to 2 base Zerg.
Protoss wins games many times going late game with Zerg when they both have 70+ workers, Protoss end game is way better than Zerg's. The issue is that Zerg can get there quicker, but when Protoss gets 4+ bases it's just impossibly hard for Zerg. If you haven't seen any PvZ longer than 20 minutes where P wins, you must not be looking hard, because that's half of all PvZ's longer than 20 minutes.
The difference is that if you include HT to your army, zerg can't do anything. FB is too good and too easy on infestors. The idea that "oh no, you have 10 infestors, there's nothing i can do!" is ridiculous. Zerg has 10 infestors because any less, they would lose, and you can easily FB at least half in an engagement with splitting micro. Pro Protoss do this all the time, white-ra has a lot of games like that, like his 4-1 against Nerchio.
5 gate robo pressure isn't all in, and extremely strong. 3 gate sentry pressure is extremely strong, and not all-in. Protoss just needs to know when to back off, and some Protoss know how to do that perfectly.
b) "Give toss the stronger maxed-out deathball:" and this is what we see now. If you put toss at the macro-disadvantage throughout midgame, they really "have" to have the stronger 200/200 ball. Even with the very minor infestor-change I somewhat doubt that it will pan out that way, since infestor/broodlord an remaxing on only roach while toss tries to get the counter to infestor/broodlord will still be incredibly strong. Nevertheless the P-deathball-buff/Z-deathball-nerf is required by the current way PvZ puts restraints on the set of possible protoss strategies.
The protoss deathball is a way too strong though, that's the problem. And Roach/Infestor/BL is owned by VR/Colossi/HT. It'd be nice if remaxing on roaches did anything against deathballs, but it doesn't.
PvZ is fine right now, Protoss is losing largely because of Zerg knowing how to 'counter' FFE, and because of the popularity of stargate resulting in lots of losses as Zerg got buffed with spore root time.
Read the notes im thrilled for the buffs protoss got. I was very happy with the somewhat nerf to fungal. Then I saw that np couldn't be used on collosus/thors/motherships ect.
Which is interesting to me. On one hand the infestor at this point is extremely cost effective to the point of almost idiocy. Every one makes them and they make alot of them. Its rare that I ever see a game now that they don't get 6+ of them.
They use these to fungal an army then parasite the larger creatures enabling them to basically win with little to no loses. ( I actually feared that thors and coll would be taken out of the game entirely do to the fact that zerg would also benefit from the upgrades that the other player had at that time.) Then push for a very easy win. Its in my mind setting up a glass goblet to get smashed with a hammer.
Now with the nerf I wonder what could they use parasite for. Seige tanks for terran. and immortals for protoss seem to be about the only things that I can think of. The answer then turns into why bother?
Even though Im a protoss player and I hate to see zergs use parasite on me I do not think we should take away the spell. I think it should cost alot more. Make the zerg think about using this spell or fungal.
What I would propose is put the spell up to 125 like the seeker missle but let it keep its ability to control massive. It would encourage the zerg to make more, harder choices. Its not so cheap that you can do it twice, or do it once then fungal and run away ( unless youv managed to store there energy up to max. Even the raven does not have this luxury) . Or reduce the amount of time it has sway on units so that they get off less shots and enabling an army to at least hold its own vrs your spells.
As it stands if they fungal 3 collo or thors youv lost that engagement unless you can snipe the infestors. Which is a very hard thing to do if you keep getting fungaled and stuck in place.
Of course people are just going to claim kill the infestors or its easy to deal with. But for the vast majority of players no its not. There are many changes that need to be made in order to balance the game. But keeping your one great unit will not do this.
At one point as protoss we had a great unit. It was the templar. Now you don't tend to see them very often unless it calls for feed back on your one great unit. Or we have a horde or marine marauders barelling down our drive way.
In all honesty infestors at this point have the best spells in the game. We cannot run or hide or micro from fungal keepimng your spell caster well out of hars way and safe. And you can have an army with parasite and infested. To top it off you can burrow and hide. Terran and protoss do no have these luxeries. Our storms are used to damage an army but they can be microed away from. And a ghost is mostly these days made just to have something to counter your infestors with. As if you dont make them you cannot win. (Unless your tlo but even he uses ghosts some times.
I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote: I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
to put it blontly >> cos terran is op... you dont want to buff the op race XD.. I dont think the community wants terran to win more than 56% of their games XD. 56% is very high...i believe its higher than BISU's win rate..thats how high it is vs the rest. http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png
An Overseer's only real offensive ability is Contaminate, which now needs 125 energy. Changelings are nice but nothing too special to warrant so much gas.
A Raven has multiple offensive abilities, each of which are powerful in their own right.
Don't forget an Overseer also has the 100 minerals cost from the Overlord incorporated into it, as well as losing supply if it dies.
On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote: I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
what are you talking about scan messes up the economy of the terran? All you gotta do is sacrifice a MULE to get a wide radius instant detection on demand. Terrans "sacrifice" only minerals to scan. I say "sacrifice" because the minerals are still actually there if you dont use a MULE, they just come in slower. Protoss and Zerg sacrifice minerals, gas, and production time to get their detection, they also "mess up their economy" by getting their detection. Scan can be evaded if youre lucky enough to get the unit out of the radius in time, but then again scan is an unkillable detector unlike observers and overseers.
whatever you believe about scan vs other detectors, you have to admit that the fact that Terran has scan and that the raven has far more utility than observers and overseers do makes the comparison of ravens to observers/overseers a much more complicated discussion than what youre making it out to be.
Personally, if I was balancing it, I would have made NP not work on air units instead. That lets void rays be an infestor counter and makes the mothership usable.
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
No it isn't, wtf? Infestors are horrible in ZvT, the reason you don't see BC's is the same reason you didn't see them before the infestor buff, the same reason you didn't see them in BW ZvT - Zerg anti-capital is too strong, and siege tanks are PvZ metagame.
Since you're so dense let me spell it out for you. Sky Terran style: Viking/banshee/raven/BC/ghosts (late game 4vs5 base) With just ling/infestors which would have been out 12min into the game, chain-FG the ball to death, NP the BCs and Vikings, let lings clean up the ghosts. Some infestors get sniped/EMP'd and some lings die to banshees & ghosts but are quickly remade. Raven launches some auto-turrets.
Mech: Thor/hellion/ghost/marauder See above. Replace Thors for BCs, no lings lost as on hold command. Move in to clean ball up after FGs clear hellions
On September 12 2011 16:01 liub wrote: I don't think the barracks +5 build time can be justified generally, my orbital command is made straight after my rax with a few seconds of not building an scv
this additional 5 second void will have me awkwardly waiting for my barracks to finish when in the meantime no scv's are being made (approximately 7 seconds just sittin there)
furthermore 5 seconds is a potential 5 energy from the orbital - gone.
This has probably already been mentioned, just wanted to flame a bit. Speaking of flames, i think the bfh nerf is absolutely fine
Looks like someone never played Zerg/Protoss Super early bio rushes are too efficient, whiele there is NOTHING other races can do without hurting their economy by ALOT, simply because how larva works and how protoss need's to wait for cyber core and more money to make units that are twice as much expensive as terran units. Those 5 seconds are more important then you think, for other races.
The Neutral Parasite Change is not good because it will destroy ZvP and ZvT Midgame. Zerg would die against any Colossus or Thor Push Hope it doesnt make it through the PTR
As a zerg player im not that worried about the NP nerf. I think blizzard is adjusting its role of the infestor rather than nerfing it. The infested terran is underused IMO, and the NP will still work vs the immortal which WILL see more use with its range upgrade.
the immortal will still be closer than the collosus and will be easier to land a NP on. With the infestor being at a safer distance the Protoss player will need to micro a bit more to snipe the infestor possibly creating opportunities for roaches to get snipes in as well. Over all i think it will slightly increase the amount of micro used in ZvP and encourage the use of infested terrans which are very awesome IMO.
i think its good that the mothership is safe from NP.
not being able to NP a thor wont be a big deal since infested terrans will help to destroy thors outright. with mech being so slow to replace its going to be ok to blow large amounts of energy on infested terrans.
Infestors may have been too good but the problem is most other units Z has in mid-late game are not good enough. By removing the most common use of NP while nerfing FG damage slightly, I can't help but think Z is going to be in trouble late game again. The FG nerf was completely warranted, but coupling it with a NP nerf might just be too much.
I can see the NP change being a bit too much for Zergs to handle. Chargelot-archon will be simply devastating now, if a 3-basing Protoss gets 7-8 archons I don't see what Zerg can do against that. Also ghostmech, which was already very powerful, may be able to skip ghosts entirely and we all know that fewer types of units = stronger pushes. Pure hellion/tank/thor, with a reactor starport on standby in case you spot a greater spire. Again, I don't see what zergs can do against that (Ultras are still terrible).
On September 13 2011 00:10 Carnagath wrote: I can see the NP change being a bit too much for Zergs to handle. Chargelot-archon will be simply devastating now, if a 3-basing Protoss gets 7-8 archons I don't see what Zerg can do against that. Also ghostmech, which was already very powerful, may be able to skip ghosts entirely and we all know that fewer types of units = stronger pushes. Pure hellion/tank/thor, with a reactor starport on standby in case you spot a greater spire. Again, I don't see what zergs can do against that (Ultras are still terrible).
Mass roach beats any Protoss composition that does not include both sentries and colossus. You can easily beat even stalker/immortal/colossus with nothing but roach as long as you make sure to fight on creep and open the fight by charging forward so all your roaches are in range or attacking from two directions. Stalkers just melt in seconds if they don't have FF to split your army in half, much faster than their colossi can kill your roaches.
The only exception to this might be stalker/immortal but that's easy to beat by just morphing a round of lings to tank the crappy-vs-unarmored damage when you see it move out.
It seems infestors have gone from completely and utterly broken OP to, well, kinda okay. ZvT no NP on Thors is huge. Like really huge. You can now lead your tank push with a thor and not worry about it turning around and shooting you.
Fungal is still good, just not broken. Its the snare not the damage which makes it good. And the damage is still respectable.
As a T i approve. And Ghost mech just became mech.
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
No it isn't, wtf? Infestors are horrible in ZvT, the reason you don't see BC's is the same reason you didn't see them before the infestor buff, the same reason you didn't see them in BW ZvT - Zerg anti-capital is too strong, and siege tanks are PvZ metagame.
Since you're so dense let me spell it out for you. Sky Terran style: Viking/banshee/raven/BC/ghosts (late game 4vs5 base) With just ling/infestors which would have been out 12min into the game, chain-FG the ball to death, NP the BCs and Vikings, let lings clean up the ghosts. Some infestors get sniped/EMP'd and some lings die to banshees & ghosts but are quickly remade. Raven launches some auto-turrets.
Mech: Thor/hellion/ghost/marauder See above. Replace Thors for BCs, no lings lost as on hold command. Move in to clean ball up after FGs clear hellions
Um, you can't actually beat Mech with Infestor Ling, it has to be Infestor/Roach or Infestor/Roach/Broodlord if the game is going on for a while.
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
No it isn't, wtf? Infestors are horrible in ZvT, the reason you don't see BC's is the same reason you didn't see them before the infestor buff, the same reason you didn't see them in BW ZvT - Zerg anti-capital is too strong, and siege tanks are PvZ metagame.
Since you're so dense let me spell it out for you. Sky Terran style: Viking/banshee/raven/BC/ghosts (late game 4vs5 base) With just ling/infestors which would have been out 12min into the game, chain-FG the ball to death, NP the BCs and Vikings, let lings clean up the ghosts. Some infestors get sniped/EMP'd and some lings die to banshees & ghosts but are quickly remade. Raven launches some auto-turrets.
Mech: Thor/hellion/ghost/marauder See above. Replace Thors for BCs, no lings lost as on hold command. Move in to clean ball up after FGs clear hellions
Um, you can't actually beat Mech with Infestor Ling, it has to be Infestor/Roach or Infestor/Roach/Broodlord if the game is going on for a while.
I find it sad that the ones giving "dealwithit tips" are Terran players. What's with all the Q.Q having to make any other comp that does not include mass (>6) Infestors?
IMO I'm getting tired of hearing day[9] say, "And he's putting down the infestation pit and researching the critical upgrade, pathogen glands, so that infestors can utilize that ultra powerful FG right out of the hatch"
On September 12 2011 21:25 Ada wrote: looking for master+ random players for an unbiased opinion!
I feel like I'm pretty unbiased, I play most races a fair bit but mostly lean towards Zerg since they're my first love.
Having said that, I do feel like Infestors have been a bit too strong and I've been pro-nerf for quite some time but only with the condition that Hydralisks and Corruptors get some love so Infestors don't have to fill their shoes so much as Anti-Air and Damage Dealers.
The fact that Blizzard wants to nerf Infestors without buffing anything else substantial pisses me off quite a bit. The Ultra buff will *maybe* help a bit dealing with Protoss deathballs, but does absolutely nothing to help with Mech, I don't see how Zerg is going to be able to deal with Mech without NP.
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
No it isn't, wtf? Infestors are horrible in ZvT, the reason you don't see BC's is the same reason you didn't see them before the infestor buff, the same reason you didn't see them in BW ZvT - Zerg anti-capital is too strong, and siege tanks are PvZ metagame.
Since you're so dense let me spell it out for you. Sky Terran style: Viking/banshee/raven/BC/ghosts (late game 4vs5 base) With just ling/infestors which would have been out 12min into the game, chain-FG the ball to death, NP the BCs and Vikings, let lings clean up the ghosts. Some infestors get sniped/EMP'd and some lings die to banshees & ghosts but are quickly remade. Raven launches some auto-turrets.
Mech: Thor/hellion/ghost/marauder See above. Replace Thors for BCs, no lings lost as on hold command. Move in to clean ball up after FGs clear hellions
If you have a problem with Sky terran as Zerg, you must really hate Carrier, Mothership, Archon, Templar, Colussus ball.
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
No it isn't, wtf? Infestors are horrible in ZvT, the reason you don't see BC's is the same reason you didn't see them before the infestor buff, the same reason you didn't see them in BW ZvT - Zerg anti-capital is too strong, and siege tanks are PvZ metagame.
Since you're so dense let me spell it out for you. Sky Terran style: Viking/banshee/raven/BC/ghosts (late game 4vs5 base) With just ling/infestors which would have been out 12min into the game, chain-FG the ball to death, NP the BCs and Vikings, let lings clean up the ghosts. Some infestors get sniped/EMP'd and some lings die to banshees & ghosts but are quickly remade. Raven launches some auto-turrets.
Mech: Thor/hellion/ghost/marauder See above. Replace Thors for BCs, no lings lost as on hold command. Move in to clean ball up after FGs clear hellions
If you have a problem with Sky terran as Zerg, you must really hate Carrier, Mothership, Archon, Templar, Colussus ball.
Dude you forgot Voids. I guess thats only on 5+ bases
On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote: I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
Terrans have the most ways to detect of any of the races. Blizzard is trying to make it more fair for the other races. Scans (mobile) Ghosts (mobile) buffed Ravens (mobile) buffed Turrets (stationary)
Zerg has 3. Overseer (mobile) buffed Infestor (mobile) buffed/nerfed Spore crawler (can be re-positioned) buffed
Protoss has 2. Observer (mobile) buffed Cannon (stationary)
On September 12 2011 21:20 FooDSoldOne wrote: The Neutral Parasite Change is not good because it will destroy ZvP and ZvT Midgame. Zerg would die against any Colossus or Thor Push Hope it doesnt make it through the PTR
Lol what?
I never upgrade NP mid-game and no one does it vs me in those matchups. This won't change much as most of the people here have whined about.
On September 13 2011 01:32 Eppa! wrote: If you have a problem with Sky terran as Zerg, you must really hate Carrier, Mothership, Archon, Templar, Colussus ball.
Haha no... I play Terran and the above play happened to me way too many times. I've given that up. Too risky IMO, I play 3 reaper, fast expand into mass 3/3 marine drops supported by 6 r-rax vs. Z nowadays.
On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote: I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
Terrans have the most ways to detect of any of the races. Blizzard is trying to make it more fair for the other races. Scans (mobile) Ghosts (mobile) buffed Ravens (mobile) buffed Turrets (stationary)
Zerg has 3. Overseer (mobile) buffed Infestor (mobile) buffed/nerfed Spore crawler (can be re-positioned) buffed
Protoss has 2. Observer (mobile) buffed Cannon (stationary)
Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. Im pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick ass. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4
The main reason T need detection is for DTs. Turrets at 3rd+ non PF bases are kinda useless. Cannon >>>> Turret as they can, you know, shoot DTs.
This isnt a balance whine at all. Scans rock but are expensive. However saying T has unfair detection is flat out silly. And ravens lol. They are so bad apart from for timing pushes. They cost soooo much and take a year to build.
Pretty much T obviously has the worst mobile detection. And its the only one not getting buffed. However with the infester mega nerf, i have no issues
O yea ghosts detection. have fun with that. Its rare that it works effectively and efficiently. Its better to target your own units with hellions and kill DTs with splash lol
On September 12 2011 21:20 FooDSoldOne wrote: The Neutral Parasite Change is not good because it will destroy ZvP and ZvT Midgame. Zerg would die against any Colossus or Thor Push Hope it doesnt make it through the PTR
Lol what?
I never upgrade NP mid-game and no one does it vs me in those matchups. This won't change much as most of the people here have whined about.
From a T perspective its actually huge. No NP on thors makes mech so crazy strong. How are you ever going to engage as i plait the map and get 5 bases up?
As long as i have 1 or 2 reactor SP in reserve and can scout hive tech, im fine.
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
No it isn't, wtf? Infestors are horrible in ZvT, the reason you don't see BC's is the same reason you didn't see them before the infestor buff, the same reason you didn't see them in BW ZvT - Zerg anti-capital is too strong, and siege tanks are PvZ metagame.
Since you're so dense let me spell it out for you. Sky Terran style: Viking/banshee/raven/BC/ghosts (late game 4vs5 base) With just ling/infestors which would have been out 12min into the game, chain-FG the ball to death, NP the BCs and Vikings, let lings clean up the ghosts. Some infestors get sniped/EMP'd and some lings die to banshees & ghosts but are quickly remade. Raven launches some auto-turrets.
Mech: Thor/hellion/ghost/marauder See above. Replace Thors for BCs, no lings lost as on hold command. Move in to clean ball up after FGs clear hellions
Wow, you don't need to be an asshole. If you disagree, just say so. How would you like it if I said "since your such a fucking idiot"....
Sky Terran isn't really viable against Zerg, and it has nothing to do with infestors. Just like how sky terran wasn't viable against Zerg in BW. And people hold off mech with mass muta or mass roach, not with opening infestor. Infestor is useful in endgame against mech, but you could have also just gone BL. Not many Zerg find mech a problem, only those who don't respond correctly
.
I find it sad that the ones giving "dealwithit tips" are Terran players. What's with all the Q.Q having to make any other comp that does not include mass (>6) Infestors?
Zerg doesn't go mass infestor against Terran. None of the top Zergs open infestor against Terran, and any Terran who knows what to do, owns infestors (see any ZvT with MVPViolet).
On September 12 2011 12:20 PenguinWithNuke wrote: That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
Zergs were designed to be a race that can get a macro-advantage unless the opponent plays a heavy, heavy pressure-style. The thing is, protoss never really had a build that was able to both apply pressure and not be completely all-in. The reason for that was/is that you can't afford to lose your sentries in midgame. If you attack with your sentries, you either win with them, or you lose them which more or less equals losing the game too.
This is why the protoss 3 base turtle style came up. Zerg always had absurd supply-leads, but they failed to capitalize. Mainly because the grotesque QQ of IdrA and others proved to be an obstacle that apparently prevented many zergs from trying out new stuff. I've seen quite a lot of korean games where heavy nydus play and sudden muta-switches were used vs the bunker-deathball-style.
Now with the infestor-buff, zergs are competitive (read: have the advantage) in BOTH of the aforementioned aspects. They still have the macro-advantage: if you go 3 gate expo, zerg drones up on 2 base faster than you. if you go FFE, zerg gets a quick third. I've never, ever seen a game where a competent zerg that a) doesn't get all-in-ed b) ends up with fewer drones than toss in midgame. We toss-players accept that as part of the design-choice of Blizz as to how this match-up will play out. Nevertheless, with strong infestors, our deathball is now ALSO weaker than the zerg-deathball! You say "letting zerg get xyz..." - remember, this is EXACTLY how protoss-players talked to zerg. "If you let protoss get xyz..." - what's the difference? The difference is, that previously zergs were able to literally take the whole map while the toss was restrained/contained on 3 bases. How on earth am I supposed to "not let zerg get xyz..." when zerg has an inherent macro-advantage already by design? Overall, either of two things must happen to re-balance PvZ, which had a worse win-% for toss than PvT in last GSL: a) "Give toss a strong midgame that is not all-in and that can put real pressure on droning zergs." Very unlikely, I have no idea how this could ever work with the given sets of units. You can't buff void rays, phoenixes, DTs, or w/e, so until HotS, where I expect some major design-changes, we are stuck with the current overall PvZ metagame. b) "Give toss the stronger maxed-out deathball:" and this is what we see now. If you put toss at the macro-disadvantage throughout midgame, they really "have" to have the stronger 200/200 ball. Even with the very minor infestor-change I somewhat doubt that it will pan out that way, since infestor/broodlord an remaxing on only roach while toss tries to get the counter to infestor/broodlord will still be incredibly strong. Nevertheless the P-deathball-buff/Z-deathball-nerf is required by the current way PvZ puts restraints on the set of possible protoss strategies.
Thanks for clarifying. It seems to me that P needs a harassment unit that can go around and kill stuff, to decrease the amount of infestors that zerg can get.
On September 12 2011 12:20 PenguinWithNuke wrote: That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
Zergs were designed to be a race that can get a macro-advantage unless the opponent plays a heavy, heavy pressure-style. The thing is, protoss never really had a build that was able to both apply pressure and not be completely all-in. The reason for that was/is that you can't afford to lose your sentries in midgame. If you attack with your sentries, you either win with them, or you lose them which more or less equals losing the game too.
This is why the protoss 3 base turtle style came up. Zerg always had absurd supply-leads, but they failed to capitalize. Mainly because the grotesque QQ of IdrA and others proved to be an obstacle that apparently prevented many zergs from trying out new stuff. I've seen quite a lot of korean games where heavy nydus play and sudden muta-switches were used vs the bunker-deathball-style.
Now with the infestor-buff, zergs are competitive (read: have the advantage) in BOTH of the aforementioned aspects. They still have the macro-advantage: if you go 3 gate expo, zerg drones up on 2 base faster than you. if you go FFE, zerg gets a quick third. I've never, ever seen a game where a competent zerg that a) doesn't get all-in-ed b) ends up with fewer drones than toss in midgame. We toss-players accept that as part of the design-choice of Blizz as to how this match-up will play out. Nevertheless, with strong infestors, our deathball is now ALSO weaker than the zerg-deathball! You say "letting zerg get xyz..." - remember, this is EXACTLY how protoss-players talked to zerg. "If you let protoss get xyz..." - what's the difference? The difference is, that previously zergs were able to literally take the whole map while the toss was restrained/contained on 3 bases. How on earth am I supposed to "not let zerg get xyz..." when zerg has an inherent macro-advantage already by design? Overall, either of two things must happen to re-balance PvZ, which had a worse win-% for toss than PvT in last GSL: a) "Give toss a strong midgame that is not all-in and that can put real pressure on droning zergs." Very unlikely, I have no idea how this could ever work with the given sets of units. You can't buff void rays, phoenixes, DTs, or w/e, so until HotS, where I expect some major design-changes, we are stuck with the current overall PvZ metagame. b) "Give toss the stronger maxed-out deathball:" and this is what we see now. If you put toss at the macro-disadvantage throughout midgame, they really "have" to have the stronger 200/200 ball. Even with the very minor infestor-change I somewhat doubt that it will pan out that way, since infestor/broodlord an remaxing on only roach while toss tries to get the counter to infestor/broodlord will still be incredibly strong. Nevertheless the P-deathball-buff/Z-deathball-nerf is required by the current way PvZ puts restraints on the set of possible protoss strategies.
Thanks for clarifying. It seems to me that P needs a harassment unit that can go around and kill stuff, to decrease the amount of infestors that zerg can get.
If only P had some sort of unit that could cloak and kill things with horrifying efficiency, but could also warp in via gateways and go anywhere! Man. I certainly hope they add such an unit.
The neural change will make some thor hellion timings viable again, used to be that neural shut down pretty much any thor based army comp, so any thor timings had to be super sharp and you couldn't retreat even if you'd forced an over-reaction from zerg, as once neural finishes you're dead.
This change will help TvZ a good bit I think, and ZvP will be just as whiny for both sides as it was before, well spread ling bling with a few fungals will still be viable, but not OP, and it will allow/force micro to play a role.
If only P had some sort of unit that could cloak and kill things with horrifying efficiency, but could also warp in via gateways and go anywhere! Man. I certainly hope they add such an unit.
You're asking too much. They could have a fast flying unit that could lift up units to kill them or that could threaten overlords.
On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote: I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
Terrans have the most ways to detect of any of the races. Blizzard is trying to make it more fair for the other races. Scans (mobile) Ghosts (mobile) buffed Ravens (mobile) buffed Turrets (stationary)
Zerg has 3. Overseer (mobile) buffed Infestor (mobile) buffed/nerfed Spore crawler (can be re-positioned) buffed
Protoss has 2. Observer (mobile) buffed Cannon (stationary)
Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. Im pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick ass. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4
The main reason T need detection is for DTs. Turrets at 3rd+ non PF bases are kinda useless. Cannon >>>> Turret as they can, you know, shoot DTs.
This isnt a balance whine at all. Scans rock but are expensive. However saying T has unfair detection is flat out silly. And ravens lol. They are so bad apart from for timing pushes. They cost soooo much and take a year to build.
Pretty much T obviously has the worst mobile detection. And its the only one not getting buffed. However with the infester mega nerf, i have no issues
O yea ghosts detection. have fun with that. Its rare that it works effectively and efficiently. Its better to target your own units with hellions and kill DTs with splash lol
unkillable anywhere detection...ya SOOOOOO un mobile lol
On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote: I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
Terrans have the most ways to detect of any of the races. Blizzard is trying to make it more fair for the other races. Scans (mobile) Ghosts (mobile) buffed Ravens (mobile) buffed Turrets (stationary)
Zerg has 3. Overseer (mobile) buffed Infestor (mobile) buffed/nerfed Spore crawler (can be re-positioned) buffed
Protoss has 2. Observer (mobile) buffed Cannon (stationary)
Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. Im pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick ass. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4
The main reason T need detection is for DTs. Turrets at 3rd+ non PF bases are kinda useless. Cannon >>>> Turret as they can, you know, shoot DTs.
This isnt a balance whine at all. Scans rock but are expensive. However saying T has unfair detection is flat out silly. And ravens lol. They are so bad apart from for timing pushes. They cost soooo much and take a year to build.
Pretty much T obviously has the worst mobile detection. And its the only one not getting buffed. However with the infester mega nerf, i have no issues
O yea ghosts detection. have fun with that. Its rare that it works effectively and efficiently. Its better to target your own units with hellions and kill DTs with splash lol
Mid game T's detection is actually pretty strong, it pretty much is unkillable with PDDs, has a good harass spell with auto-turrets, and has a AoE spell with Hunter missiles (although slow, will pretty much scare off any mass of air units). Compared to Zerg's and Protoss', the Zerg's only having changeling and contaminate, which just got a nerf.
^ You know sacarsm aside, DTs and Phoenix are way too expensive. If Protoss gets DTs or Phoenix even on 2 base, if they end up doing zero damage with them, then it's pretty much impossible for them to win.
Protoss kind of needs a reaper or hellion, a unit to harass with that isn't game breakingly expensive and a total coinflip. Zerg has zerglings at least to harass with.
Why do people keep saying the NP change will affect TvZ? No one deals with mass thor with infestors, they get raped by siege tanks (there's also that 0/3 Mech guide about being 'np proof').
Someone posted that comment that Blizzard (in a service rep's response) did this because of NP being too good on thors, but no good Zerg used NP on thors to win, only as a supplement in end game after they already had BLs.
On September 13 2011 03:40 Belial88 wrote:Zerg doesn't go mass infestor against Terran. None of the top Zergs open infestor against Terran, and any Terran who knows what to do, owns infestors (see any ZvT with MVPViolet).
Mass Infestor? Of course not, but plenty of people open Infestor
This is exactly why NP is being nerfed, where are the stalwarts of the Protoss? Or the dreaded Battlecruiser armadas?
The FEAR of being NP is what keeps late game comps in the T2 bracket. Metagame wise this affects the game's popularity. Why? Because the layman sees nothing new after 20 min with the same units in ZvX they'll stop watching ZvX because it's boring the same set of units dying over and over.
Ingame wise, it is stupid to think that that they NOT develop techniques or technology to protect their massive investments from being mind controlled.
No it isn't, wtf? Infestors are horrible in ZvT, the reason you don't see BC's is the same reason you didn't see them before the infestor buff, the same reason you didn't see them in BW ZvT - Zerg anti-capital is too strong, and siege tanks are PvZ metagame.
Since you're so dense let me spell it out for you. Sky Terran style: Viking/banshee/raven/BC/ghosts (late game 4vs5 base) With just ling/infestors which would have been out 12min into the game, chain-FG the ball to death, NP the BCs and Vikings, let lings clean up the ghosts. Some infestors get sniped/EMP'd and some lings die to banshees & ghosts but are quickly remade. Raven launches some auto-turrets.
Mech: Thor/hellion/ghost/marauder See above. Replace Thors for BCs, no lings lost as on hold command. Move in to clean ball up after FGs clear hellions
Let's see a replay of any of that ridiculous bullshit happening. Seriously If you're just going to say things in such a prick tone you should probably atleast do it well.
On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote: I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 Gas , now overseer 100 to 50 Gas why doesnt they buff Raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 Gas Yeah i know it has abilities that by the Way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the Raven and even then when Raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also iS verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a Raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make Sense to Smart and analitic people .... have a good day
Terrans have the most ways to detect of any of the races. Blizzard iS trying to make it more fair for the other races. Scans (mobile) Ghosts (mobile) buffed Ravens (mobile) buffed Turrets (stationary)
Zerg has 3. Overseer (mobile) buffed Infestor (mobile) buffed/nerfed Spore crawler (can be re-positioned) buffed
Protoss has 2. Observer (mobile) buffed Cannon (stationary)
Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. IM pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick asS. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4
The main ReasoN T need detection iS for DTs. Turrets at 3rd+ non PF bases are kinda useless. Cannon >>>> Turret as they can, you know, shoot DTs.
This isnt a balance whine at all. Scans Rock but are expensive. However saying T has unfair detection iS flat out silly. And ravens lol. They are so Bad apart from for timing pushes. They cost soooo much and take a year to build.
Pretty much T obviously has the worst mobile detection. And its the Only ONE not getting buffed. However with the infester MeGa nerf, i have no issues
O yea ghosts detection. have fun with that. Its rare that it works effectively and efficiently. Its better to Target your own units with hellions and Kill DTs with splash lol
"Cloaked" does not eQual "invisible." I've killed more observers by looking at them and scanning - or emp- than I have with ravens or turrets.
That SaiD, I ♥ ravens. Maybe it's just because I like them so much more than the science vessels of BW, but I think that it's tragic how often a Raven sits unused in the middle of the Terran army.
Scans also aren't that expensive. They only coast a MULE. As much as people hate the idea of Terran being able to call a MULE and instantly have infinite resources... wait, that's not how it works at all...
On September 13 2011 03:40 Belial88 wrote:Zerg doesn't go mass infestor against Terran. None of the top Zergs open infestor against Terran, and any Terran who knows what to do, owns infestors (see any ZvT with MVPViolet).
Mass Infestor? Of course not, but plenty of people open Infestor
Not in ZvT.... if you open infestors in ZvT, Terran will destroy you by dropping your main and third and you won't have mutas to deal with it, and their siege tank/marine timing push will completely own you while you have no way of dealing with their siege tanks.
If Zerg goes infestors ZvT, Terran just grabs a free third and macros up more tanks, or gets ghosts, and drops for the win. You see Destiny win by beating bad Terrans who don't expand or get caught unsieged.
It's just a horrible opening in ZvT. We see in the GSL that Violet and other Zergs who open infestors ZvT get owned by 'mediocre' Terrans, and Rainbow constantly trashes Destiny on ladder, showing how ridiculous infestor openings are by opening 2 base Battlecruiser and throwing PF's all over the map while dropping Destiny so he can't move out of his base to deal with his expo's all over the map.
Let's see a replay of any of that ridiculous bullshit happening. Seriously If you're just going to say things in such a prick tone you should probably atleast do it well.
Don't mind Hanzo, I'm pretty sure he's either trolling or doesn't know what he's talking about.
Personally, I feel the game was in a pretty good state, even as someone who supposedly plays the "weak race." However, some mechanics are simply not fun in the game, such as NP, Fungal, EMP, and Forcefields. Call me biased, but I feel that each of these either completely removes skill in micro from a fight, or makes it null and void. The Neural Parasite and Fungal changes were needed on Zerg, I'm sorry, but the ability to completely remove someone's T3 units from an engagement with your T2 units was a little too strong, not fun to play against, and dare I say it... unbalanced. However, Zerg did get a bit of a shaft with this patch with those changes, as buffs to other units would be nice to compliment heavy nerfs to their strongest, and as many would claim, only 'good' unit. The Thor/Hellion timing and a 3 base Colossus deathball will be a little too strong against Zerg players now, in my opinion, however I'll wait to see the results before calling anything.
The Protoss changes largely benefit in PvP, where 4gate or heavy blink stalkers was the norm and often the matchup was either a coinflip of your build order, or whoever got a proxy pylon closer or warpgates out faster. The matchup wasn't fun to play in, and hopefully the Immortal buff and Vision nerfs will help fix this. The Warp Prism is also an interesting change, perhaps even a bit too much. Certain players have been successful with the unit already, and perhaps some more exploration into builds with it should have been done before deciding it needed buffs. Personally, my problem with the Warp Prism isn't the unit itself, but a lack of drop viable units to carry in it, and many Protoss players will agree with this. The change will encourage it's play more, however, and new branches of playstyle are always a good thing for the game.
To me, the biggest change on the Terran side is the Hellion nerf. Even Terran players should agree that this was necessary, as far as I have heard, BFH even dominated TvT on higher ladders for a while. Hopefully the change will force the upgrade to be an upgrade that is optional, rather than one that is almost required to use the unit due to it's low cost to effectiveness ratio. I'm actually pretty excited to see some +1 hellion timings come out of this change, and the counters to those builds, as that will further evolve ZvT in a direction I don't think any of us can predict, similar to the way the 5 rax reaper build did a few months ago.
my personal verdict on this patch: Zerg got the shaft, units got nerfed that really did need it, but other units did not get buffed in return. Creativity was generated by Zerg players, and Blizzard smacked it down, once again trying to force them into a "Build up, trade armies, and build back up faster than your opponent" playstyle rather than attempting to be cost effective. Maybe we'll see some crazy builds such as a +1/1 Roach OV drop or something, it'd be cool to see. Protoss got changes that will hopefully make the PvP matchup less volatile, and a longer game in general. Terran got a much needed nerf to BFH, that will hopefully encourage some other timings with upgrades rather than just rushing BFH then being free to do whatever because those Hellions didn't cost gas that they can now tech with.
why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses.
On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote: I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
Terrans have the most ways to detect of any of the races. Blizzard is trying to make it more fair for the other races. Scans (mobile) Ghosts (mobile) buffed Ravens (mobile) buffed Turrets (stationary)
Zerg has 3. Overseer (mobile) buffed Infestor (mobile) buffed/nerfed Spore crawler (can be re-positioned) buffed
Protoss has 2. Observer (mobile) buffed Cannon (stationary)
Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. Im pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick ass. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4
The main reason T need detection is for DTs. Turrets at 3rd+ non PF bases are kinda useless. Cannon >>>> Turret as they can, you know, shoot DTs.
This isnt a balance whine at all. Scans rock but are expensive. However saying T has unfair detection is flat out silly. And ravens lol. They are so bad apart from for timing pushes. They cost soooo much and take a year to build.
Pretty much T obviously has the worst mobile detection. And its the only one not getting buffed. However with the infester mega nerf, i have no issues
O yea ghosts detection. have fun with that. Its rare that it works effectively and efficiently. Its better to target your own units with hellions and kill DTs with splash lol
Lol worst mid game detection? Expensive? Are you kidding me?
Scan is not expensive. And dont give me that talking point "MULES cost 270 minerals". They dont. They only mine those minerals faster. If you dont call a MULE those minerals will still come in later.
Protoss and Zerg detection costs 50/75 and 150/50 (overseers cost an extra 100 for the overlord). They also take up production time, meaning its not on demand (like scan) and it takes up production lines that could be used for other units. They can also be killed.
Terran has the best mid game detection in my opinion
I'm sorry but a 20% boost to production speed of Ultras is a massive boost. A massive 40.6 dps v armored w. 13.4 dps splash rad of 1 and can be out on the field in 110s (65 + 55 per unit) and 6 armor with continual upgrades.
I think that's a pretty fair trade off. As one can over produce Ultras, this encourages mixed comps.
EDIT: With this change, it is now possible to continually stream in 4-6 ultras without pause and other units (lings/mutas/etc), assuming 5-6 saturated base scenario.
On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote: I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day
Terrans have the most ways to detect of any of the races. Blizzard is trying to make it more fair for the other races. Scans (mobile) Ghosts (mobile) buffed Ravens (mobile) buffed Turrets (stationary)
Zerg has 3. Overseer (mobile) buffed Infestor (mobile) buffed/nerfed Spore crawler (can be re-positioned) buffed
Protoss has 2. Observer (mobile) buffed Cannon (stationary)
Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. Im pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick ass. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4
The main reason T need detection is for DTs. Turrets at 3rd+ non PF bases are kinda useless. Cannon >>>> Turret as they can, you know, shoot DTs.
This isnt a balance whine at all. Scans rock but are expensive. However saying T has unfair detection is flat out silly. And ravens lol. They are so bad apart from for timing pushes. They cost soooo much and take a year to build.
Pretty much T obviously has the worst mobile detection. And its the only one not getting buffed. However with the infester mega nerf, i have no issues
O yea ghosts detection. have fun with that. Its rare that it works effectively and efficiently. Its better to target your own units with hellions and kill DTs with splash lol
Terrans must be terribly spoiled with all of their good units. Any zerg or protoss player would love to be able to make ravens.
I'm sorry but a 20% boost to production speed of Ultras is a massive boost. A massive 40.6 dps v armored w. 13.4 dps splash rad of 1 and can be out on the field in 110s (65 + 55 per unit) and 6 armor with continual upgrades.
I think that's a pretty fair trade off. As one can over produce Ultras, this encourages mixed comps.
EDIT: With this change, it is now possible to continually stream in 4-6 ultras without pause and other units (lings/mutas/etc), assuming 5-6 saturated base scenario.
There's also hive, so it's actually 100+110=210 seconds. Pretty long time, that's more than a mothership. They are also extremely expensive. All this buff does is make ultras more viable in endgame, it doesn't do anything to address Protoss deathballs, as they will still be made before Zerg can get ultras out.
I actually made a guide advocating ultras against deathballs, and a big part of that was that you can never afford it and get them out in time. If Ultra gas cost is reduced, then maybe, but all this does is make it so it's possible to make ultras in end game as a remax option, not necessarily make an army of them. You still need to hold an initial army with lair tech.
I'm sorry but a 20% boost to production speed of Ultras is a massive boost. A massive 40.6 dps v armored w. 13.4 dps splash rad of 1 and can be out on the field in 110s (65 + 55 per unit) and 6 armor with continual upgrades.
I think that's a pretty fair trade off. As one can over produce Ultras, this encourages mixed comps.
EDIT: With this change, it is now possible to continually stream in 4-6 ultras without pause and other units (lings/mutas/etc), assuming 5-6 saturated base scenario.
There's also hive, so it's actually 100+110=210 seconds. Pretty long time, that's more than a mothership. They are also extremely expensive. All this buff does is make ultras more viable in endgame, it doesn't do anything to address Protoss deathballs, as they will still be made before Zerg can get ultras out.
Well, taking into account the Fleet beacon build time of 60, that works out to the same, 60s (FB) + 160s (Mothership) = 220s.
IANAZ, but given the changes, Blizzard DOES want to see more ultralisk play (after they nerf'd it to hell). We'll see then.
On September 13 2011 10:51 Supamang wrote: Scan is not expensive. And dont give me that talking point "MULES cost 270 minerals". They dont. They only mine those minerals faster. If you dont call a MULE those minerals will still come in later.
Why bother to make extra workers then? One worker should suffice, you'll get all those minerals eventually anyway, right?
The whole set of "XXX costs YYY minerals" statements are underspecified; they don't take into account the time value of money (minerals/gas in this case). 270 minerals now is worth more than 270 minerals 15 minutes from now. A lot more.
If you didn't take things like that into account, zerg buildings cost tons of minerals due to opportunity cost of the drone. Then again, that cost is paid for by 1 larva and 50 mins. So 1 larva + 50 mins = tons and tons of minerals, right? Sounds silly. But it's true, because those minerals are taken over a long period of time.
Analogously, terran can either say that a scan costs 270 minerals (over the lifetime of a MULE), which it does given fixed number of orbital commands, OR a scan every (recharge rate of 50 energy) costs 400 minerals + scv build time spent not mining, invested (orbital command build time) before a scan is desired. Both options are available, and both are possible prices for scans. They are, however, still prices when compared to some default option (muling).
Later on in the game, mules put terrans econ ahead of the other races, due to oversaturation and/or gold bases. Early on, the mules are necessary to compensate for slower worker production rate, the necessary cutting of two scvs while the orbital morphs, and the higher infrastructure cost of terran production structures and depots (scv isn't mining).
So, in the late game, scans are pretty much free. Early on, they are very very expensive.
I'm a bit confused right now. I played on the 1.4 PTR though I was able to control my opponents Colossi. Did they take the nerf back or was it never active on the PTR yet?
Does anyone think the weaker fungal damage vs non armored unit will effect ZvZ? Seems like muta play might get stronger now. maybe muta ling infestor is gonna be the new direction for ZvZ?
On September 13 2011 17:53 hun13 wrote: Does anyone think the weaker fungal damage vs non armored unit will effect ZvZ? Seems like muta play might get stronger now. maybe muta ling infestor is gonna be the new direction for ZvZ?
Fungal won't 1-shot banes, for one thing. Less damage to mutas isn't a huge deal IMO, only those edge cases where your opponent doesn't quite have enough fungals to keep your mutas perma-rooted. It changes the minimum number of fungals to kill a muta from 4 to 5, but given human timing abilities Zs were probably already using 5 (without additional units attacking air) because of overlap. With anti-air in addition to the fungal, the root is the more important part of the spell anyway. Slight buff, I guess, but unit control and timing are much more important if you're going to use/defend against mutas.
^ Going hydras against mutas is like going hydras against Protoss who went stargate (and thus goes straight to colossi). You will lose. Mutas > hydras, actually, in ZvZ, and more and more zergs are figuring that out now after the nestea vs losira finals.
As protoss I'm kind of disappointed with the NP change because it represents yet another buff to the robo tech tree -- the tech tree of a-move powerhouse units (by a-move I mean that robo units don't have any active abilities, not that you don't ever micro them).
I'm tired of robo being the answer to everything for protoss, and I would have preferred to see a templar-centric fix for infestors. But I guess Blizzard can't buff templar without incidentally putting them on more equal footing versus ghosts.
So the way that the NP nerf will effect me is that I'm going to go robo every PvZ...again. Early spire will get run over by an immortal timing and everything else will get run over by a big colossus count. Yawn. The only difference from six months ago is that I'll need to keep my VR on a separate hotkey and avoid clumping them directly above my gateway army.
On September 13 2011 21:16 galivet wrote: As protoss I'm kind of disappointed with the NP change because it represents yet another buff to the robo tech tree -- the tech tree of a-move powerhouse units (by a-move I mean that robo units don't have any active abilities, not that you don't ever micro them).
I'm tired of robo being the answer to everything for protoss, and I would have preferred to see a templar-centric fix for infestors. But I guess Blizzard can't buff templar without incidentally putting them on more equal footing versus ghosts.
So the way that the NP nerf will effect me is that I'm going to go robo every PvZ...again. Early spire will get run over by an immortal timing and everything else will get run over by a big colossus count. Yawn. The only difference from six months ago is that I'll need to keep my VR on a separate hotkey and avoid clumping them directly above my gateway army.
This. Exactly this, thank you, its refreshing to see a protoss actually agree with us
Also @ hydralisk vs mutas: I think we can all agree that hydralisks are utterly useless. They dont work vs ground, they dont work vs air. The only thing they work against is the inbetween - and there are not many of those units in SCII.
On September 13 2011 21:16 galivet wrote: As protoss I'm kind of disappointed with the NP change because it represents yet another buff to the robo tech tree -- the tech tree of a-move powerhouse units (by a-move I mean that robo units don't have any active abilities, not that you don't ever micro them).
I'm tired of robo being the answer to everything for protoss, and I would have preferred to see a templar-centric fix for infestors. But I guess Blizzard can't buff templar without incidentally putting them on more equal footing versus ghosts.
So the way that the NP nerf will effect me is that I'm going to go robo every PvZ...again. Early spire will get run over by an immortal timing and everything else will get run over by a big colossus count. Yawn. The only difference from six months ago is that I'll need to keep my VR on a separate hotkey and avoid clumping them directly above my gateway army.
This. Exactly this, thank you, its refreshing to see a protoss actually agree with us
Also @ hydralisk vs mutas: I think we can all agree that hydralisks are utterly useless. They dont work vs ground, they dont work vs air. The only thing they work against is the inbetween - and there are not many of those units in SCII.
Hydralisks beat a smaller pack of hydralisks
On another note. Someone mentioned that overseers cost an OL. Do they? Do they really? Do you ever make an extra OL so you can make an overseer? They only cost it if you lose it.
They are mobile detection, they take almost no time to make and dont take up a production queue. Also, they are pretty much free now. Oh yeah, and some kinda cool spells. If I could make overseers as T, id pay 150/50 for an overseer any day. Its like a raven on crack for detection purposes.
(I may be wrong but are they faster? Ah just looked it up. Without speed they are a tad slower, but with they are pacy little fuckers.)
The main argument i hear against observers, is that they take up robo time. A robo costs 200/100. Again as a T, once on 3 bases i would always build one of these even if they only gave me observers. Just build a second robo. Fuck it build a 3rd if your on 5 bases. Why not? If you have so little money you cant spend on 5 mining bases, well you are really really good at macroing (or really bad i guess)
Talking about how T scans are expensive, it's easy to argue that the cost of an overseer is 150/50 after patch now if your really worried about Terran detection build another command center in your main, at a cost of 400/0 it really isnt more expensive than like 2 overseers and then you dont have to worry about scans anymore
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, because IMO you can afford to scan anyway and I think the raven is a good unit. Just pointing out that T has that option for more easy to use anywhere detection if it really thinks using scans on its original OCs is such a waste.
On September 13 2011 21:44 BoonSolo wrote: Talking about how T scans are expensive, it's easy to argue that the cost of an overseer is 150/50 after patch now if your really worried about Terran detection build another command center in your main, at a cost of 400/0 it really isnt more expensive than like 2 overseers and then you dont have to worry about scans anymore
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, because IMO you can afford to scan anyway and I think the raven is a good unit. Just pointing out that T has that option for more easy to use anywhere detection if it really thinks using scans on its original OCs is such a waste.
Early game you cant really afford to scan as T has by far the worst worker production. You MULE to keep up. Your saying it like T is on even footing eco and has the MULE to get ahead.
An OC costs 550 not 400.
How can you argue that overseers cost 150/50? They only do if you lose them and have to replace with an overlord. Dont lose them so easily :/ Also DT and Banshees cant shoot up so nothing invisible (ignoring mothershippy shenanigans) can kill them.
1 more OC doesnt mean you dont have to worry about scans also, energy is slow. But yes an OC dedicated to scans would massively help detection wise. The thing is you never know when your going to need to scan in advance. Apart from standard scouting scans.
Its an interesting counter to my just build another robo, but i dont think it really works. 550 is a lot more than 200/100. And it would be ridiculous to not take an expo with that OC.
If you can safely make another OC and you dont expo with, you are probably now behind in bases. Building another robo in no way puts you behind.
On September 13 2011 10:49 mage36 wrote: why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses.
Can we make babies?
Too many people who have only played one race giving absurdly biased opinions.
On September 13 2011 10:49 mage36 wrote: why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses.
Can we make babies?
Too many people who have only played one race giving absurdly biased opinions.
Actually I think that, for those not too seriously into the game, playing random is the best and most relaxing thing when we talk about new patches coming out: they never "nerf your race", and at the very worst you may end up wondering "I really can't understand what should I do now when I play X against Y.. Oh well... I'll see what X players do to me when I, as Y, do that exact thing.. and I'll copy that if it works"!
...then you feel as an enlightened zen sage when people cry about they own race been nerfed
On September 13 2011 10:49 mage36 wrote: why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses.
Can we make babies?
Too many people who have only played one race giving absurdly biased opinions.
There was a huge mothership buff too. a HUUGE one. However people will complain as they still kinda suck.
If you buff something from unusable to really bad, its still not good. HSM sucks. It kinda always will without a huge overhaul. You will only really see it in 15 hour TvT games ala boxer.
Thanks for the insightful input. It was more from a fortune cookie then starcraft related though
Do you know my lucky numbers? XD
EDIT: AAAhhh i quoted the wrong guy. I cba to change it but im sure people know who i meant to quote
On September 13 2011 03:23 Squigly wrote: Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. Im pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick ass. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4
Observers also require that you commit to a tech path and they NEED to be cloaked. Without the speed upgrade (which getting mid game is not something you'd generally do; heck, you never get it), observers are slower than every single unit that can shoot air (same for the overseer).
See? It's easy to say that something sucks and that the other races have it easy.
The fact is, observers are cheap because they don't do anything else than detect and they're low HP because they are cloaked.
On September 13 2011 10:49 mage36 wrote: why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses.
Can we make babies?
Too many people who have only played one race giving absurdly biased opinions.
There was a huge mothership buff too. a HUUGE one. However people will complain as they still kinda suck.
If you buff something from unusable to really bad, its still not good. HSM sucks. It kinda always will without a huge overhaul. You will only really see it in 15 hour TvT games ala boxer.
Thanks for the insightful input. It was more from a fortune cookie then starcraft related though
Do you know my lucky numbers? XD
EDIT: AAAhhh i quoted the wrong guy. I cba to change it but im sure people know who i meant to quote
I don't entirely get the whole NP issue to begin with. There are hardly any good targets that aren't massive and the infestor is so vulnerable while casting it Ive never had a real problem sniping them when they try something cute. I mean tanks and colossi just stomp on them. Plus you've got blink and HT/Ghost abilities that can hose infestors, too. I've been like, perfectly cliff ambushed by NP onto thors and tanks and still got vision and killed them with my bio before i was totally wiped, then went on to beat them up.
If NP really needed a nerf I'd rather see it's range reduced or something along those lines.
On September 13 2011 03:23 Squigly wrote: Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. Im pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick ass. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4
Observers also require that you commit to a tech path and they NEED to be cloaked. Without the speed upgrade (which getting mid game is not something you'd generally do; heck, you never get it), observers are slower than every single unit that can shoot air (same for the overseer).
See? It's easy to say that something sucks and that the other races have it easy.
The fact is, observers are cheap because they don't do anything else than detect and they're low HP because they are cloaked.
I dont get it. You say they need to be cloaked. They are. If they werent then yes they would have issues. I dont think you realise that flying things cant shoot invisible things :/
Also who doesnt get overlord speed? When you do those things move stupid fast.
Everyone gets a robo, and if you dont get OLs, then, i guess youve drone rushed?
The thing i have issues with raven wise is thats its on its own little tech path that noone used in tvp and often tvt. Sure i can swap a tech lab onto it from say a factory, but that has issues of its own. Then there is the cost.
Im not saying its not good, but if you get a raven purely for detection it sucks. Hard. Id personally have all abilities removed, and make it far cheaper.
Why not get the speed upgrade for observers btw? Doest cost all that much. If you going colossi its no tech.
EDIT: "Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly?
On September 13 2011 10:49 mage36 wrote: why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses.
Can we make babies?
Too many people who have only played one race giving absurdly biased opinions.
There was a huge mothership buff too. a HUUGE one. However people will complain as they still kinda suck.
If you buff something from unusable to really bad, its still not good. HSM sucks. It kinda always will without a huge overhaul. You will only really see it in 15 hour TvT games ala boxer.
Thanks for the insightful input. It was more from a fortune cookie then starcraft related though
Do you know my lucky numbers? XD
EDIT: AAAhhh i quoted the wrong guy. I cba to change it but im sure people know who i meant to quote
I don't entirely get the whole NP issue to begin with. There are hardly any good targets that aren't massive and the infestor is so vulnerable while casting it Ive never had a real problem sniping them when they try something cute. I mean tanks and colossi just stomp on them. Plus you've got blink and HT/Ghost abilities that can hose infestors, too. I've been like, perfectly cliff ambushed by NP onto thors and tanks and still got vision and killed them with my bio before i was totally wiped, then went on to beat them up.
If NP really needed a nerf I'd rather see it's range reduced or something along those lines.
For me NP nerf is much more PvZ balance tweak then TvZ. When i do bio/mech it isnt that bad to snipe infestors witch cast NP. But in that case, most zergs just dont use np but cast fungal. But if you go pure mech, then NP start to be spike in yours ass with witch you can (can't :-) ) do shit.
On September 13 2011 21:44 BoonSolo wrote: Talking about how T scans are expensive, it's easy to argue that the cost of an overseer is 150/50 after patch now if your really worried about Terran detection build another command center in your main, at a cost of 400/0 it really isnt more expensive than like 2 overseers and then you dont have to worry about scans anymore
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, because IMO you can afford to scan anyway and I think the raven is a good unit. Just pointing out that T has that option for more easy to use anywhere detection if it really thinks using scans on its original OCs is such a waste.
Early game you cant really afford to scan as T has by far the worst worker production. You MULE to keep up. Your saying it like T is on even footing eco and has the MULE to get ahead.
An OC costs 550 not 400.
How can you argue that overseers cost 150/50? They only do if you lose them and have to replace with an overlord. Dont lose them so easily :/ Also DT and Banshees cant shoot up so nothing invisible (ignoring mothershippy shenanigans) can kill them.
1 more OC doesnt mean you dont have to worry about scans also, energy is slow. But yes an OC dedicated to scans would massively help detection wise. The thing is you never know when your going to need to scan in advance. Apart from standard scouting scans.
Well you say early game T has the worst detection because a scan is expensive,but you can still make turrets and that is all the detection that P and Z have so really early game T detection is superior.
And if an OC costs 550(IE 150 minerals scv building time) using equivalent logic a mule is worth 270 minerals and therefore an extra OC for scans need only use 2 mules to pay for itself. This is obviously flawed logic as it doesn't take into account the time value of minerals mined and the fact those minerals could still be mined in the future. However considering an extra OC it provides some mules and increased scv production I would imagine this goes a long way to offsetting the cost and will provide a lot more scans.
Overseer cost should include the cost of the overlord (or at least part of it) because you cannot afford the possibility of losing it and being supply blocked so it is wise to replace it before ever losing it.
I don't understand your point about banshees and DTs, you can still lose an overseer to blink stalkers/stimmed marines/vikings very easily.
And yes you don't know when your going to need scans, however being able to call on scans as soon as you need them is a luxury only Terran has, as both Z and P both need to prematurely make detection.
I think the benefit of some mules, increase scv production and possible use as a mining base later on go a long way to justify saying the cost of 2 overseers is somewhat equivalent to an extra OC. Really you Terran players have the best detection options at all stages of the game IMO
On September 13 2011 21:44 BoonSolo wrote: Talking about how T scans are expensive, it's easy to argue that the cost of an overseer is 150/50 after patch now if your really worried about Terran detection build another command center in your main, at a cost of 400/0 it really isnt more expensive than like 2 overseers and then you dont have to worry about scans anymore
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, because IMO you can afford to scan anyway and I think the raven is a good unit. Just pointing out that T has that option for more easy to use anywhere detection if it really thinks using scans on its original OCs is such a waste.
Early game you cant really afford to scan as T has by far the worst worker production. You MULE to keep up. Your saying it like T is on even footing eco and has the MULE to get ahead.
An OC costs 550 not 400.
How can you argue that overseers cost 150/50? They only do if you lose them and have to replace with an overlord. Dont lose them so easily :/ Also DT and Banshees cant shoot up so nothing invisible (ignoring mothershippy shenanigans) can kill them.
1 more OC doesnt mean you dont have to worry about scans also, energy is slow. But yes an OC dedicated to scans would massively help detection wise. The thing is you never know when your going to need to scan in advance. Apart from standard scouting scans.
Well you say early game T has the worst detection because a scan is expensive,but you can still make turrets and that is all the detection that P and Z have so really early game T detection is superior.
And if an OC costs 550(IE 150 minerals scv building time) using equivalent logic a mule is worth 270 minerals and therefore an extra OC for scans need only use 2 mules to pay for itself. This is obviously flawed logic as it doesn't take into account the time value of minerals mined and the fact those minerals could still be mined in the future. However considering an extra OC it provides some mules and increased scv production I would imagine this goes a long way to offsetting the cost and will provide a lot more scans.
Overseer cost should include the cost of the overlord (or at least part of it) because you cannot afford the possibility of losing it and being supply blocked so it is wise to replace it before ever losing it.
I don't understand your point about banshees and DTs, you can still lose an overseer to blink stalkers/stimmed marines/vikings very easily.
And yes you don't know when your going to need scans, however being able to call on scans as soon as you need them is a luxury only Terran has, as both Z and P both need to prematurely make detection.
I think the benefit of some mules, increase scv production and possible use as a mining base later on go a long way to justify saying the cost of 2 overseers is somewhat equivalent to an extra OC. Really you Terran players have the best detection options at all stages of the game IMO
Huh? 400 for CC. 150 for OC. I ignored building time as i knew youd whine about it if i didnt
On September 13 2011 21:44 BoonSolo wrote: Talking about how T scans are expensive, it's easy to argue that the cost of an overseer is 150/50 after patch now if your really worried about Terran detection build another command center in your main, at a cost of 400/0 it really isnt more expensive than like 2 overseers and then you dont have to worry about scans anymore
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, because IMO you can afford to scan anyway and I think the raven is a good unit. Just pointing out that T has that option for more easy to use anywhere detection if it really thinks using scans on its original OCs is such a waste.
Early game you cant really afford to scan as T has by far the worst worker production. You MULE to keep up. Your saying it like T is on even footing eco and has the MULE to get ahead.
An OC costs 550 not 400.
How can you argue that overseers cost 150/50? They only do if you lose them and have to replace with an overlord. Dont lose them so easily :/ Also DT and Banshees cant shoot up so nothing invisible (ignoring mothershippy shenanigans) can kill them.
1 more OC doesnt mean you dont have to worry about scans also, energy is slow. But yes an OC dedicated to scans would massively help detection wise. The thing is you never know when your going to need to scan in advance. Apart from standard scouting scans.
Well you say early game T has the worst detection because a scan is expensive,but you can still make turrets and that is all the detection that P and Z have so really early game T detection is superior.
And if an OC costs 550(IE 150 minerals scv building time) using equivalent logic a mule is worth 270 minerals and therefore an extra OC for scans need only use 2 mules to pay for itself. This is obviously flawed logic as it doesn't take into account the time value of minerals mined and the fact those minerals could still be mined in the future. However considering an extra OC it provides some mules and increased scv production I would imagine this goes a long way to offsetting the cost and will provide a lot more scans.
Overseer cost should include the cost of the overlord (or at least part of it) because you cannot afford the possibility of losing it and being supply blocked so it is wise to replace it before ever losing it.
I don't understand your point about banshees and DTs, you can still lose an overseer to blink stalkers/stimmed marines/vikings very easily.
And yes you don't know when your going to need scans, however being able to call on scans as soon as you need them is a luxury only Terran has, as both Z and P both need to prematurely make detection.
I think the benefit of some mules, increase scv production and possible use as a mining base later on go a long way to justify saying the cost of 2 overseers is somewhat equivalent to an extra OC. Really you Terran players have the best detection options at all stages of the game IMO
Huh? 400 for CC. 150 for OC. I ignored building time as i knew youd whine about it if i didnt
Haha oh yeah sorry, ok so maybe you gotta call 3 mules off it.
On September 13 2011 21:44 BoonSolo wrote: Talking about how T scans are expensive, it's easy to argue that the cost of an overseer is 150/50 after patch now if your really worried about Terran detection build another command center in your main, at a cost of 400/0 it really isnt more expensive than like 2 overseers and then you dont have to worry about scans anymore
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, because IMO you can afford to scan anyway and I think the raven is a good unit. Just pointing out that T has that option for more easy to use anywhere detection if it really thinks using scans on its original OCs is such a waste.
Early game you cant really afford to scan as T has by far the worst worker production. You MULE to keep up. Your saying it like T is on even footing eco and has the MULE to get ahead.
An OC costs 550 not 400.
How can you argue that overseers cost 150/50? They only do if you lose them and have to replace with an overlord. Dont lose them so easily :/ Also DT and Banshees cant shoot up so nothing invisible (ignoring mothershippy shenanigans) can kill them.
1 more OC doesnt mean you dont have to worry about scans also, energy is slow. But yes an OC dedicated to scans would massively help detection wise. The thing is you never know when your going to need to scan in advance. Apart from standard scouting scans.
Well you say early game T has the worst detection because a scan is expensive,but you can still make turrets and that is all the detection that P and Z have so really early game T detection is superior.
And if an OC costs 550(IE 150 minerals scv building time) using equivalent logic a mule is worth 270 minerals and therefore an extra OC for scans need only use 2 mules to pay for itself. This is obviously flawed logic as it doesn't take into account the time value of minerals mined and the fact those minerals could still be mined in the future. However considering an extra OC it provides some mules and increased scv production I would imagine this goes a long way to offsetting the cost and will provide a lot more scans.
Overseer cost should include the cost of the overlord (or at least part of it) because you cannot afford the possibility of losing it and being supply blocked so it is wise to replace it before ever losing it.
I don't understand your point about banshees and DTs, you can still lose an overseer to blink stalkers/stimmed marines/vikings very easily.
And yes you don't know when your going to need scans, however being able to call on scans as soon as you need them is a luxury only Terran has, as both Z and P both need to prematurely make detection.
I think the benefit of some mules, increase scv production and possible use as a mining base later on go a long way to justify saying the cost of 2 overseers is somewhat equivalent to an extra OC. Really you Terran players have the best detection options at all stages of the game IMO
Huh? 400 for CC. 150 for OC. I ignored building time as i knew youd whine about it if i didnt
Haha oh yeah sorry, ok so maybe you gotta call 3 mules off it.
Ha np, i forgot stim costs 10hp yesterday in a stim vs shield debate XD
I just don't think it's right that ghosts counter every single units above tier 1 for zergs except corruptors, and possibly hydras (why you'd ever make them I dunno).
On September 14 2011 02:57 aebriol wrote: Thinking about it more and more ...
I think Ultralisks should be immune to snipe.
I just don't think it's right that ghosts counter every single units above tier 1 for zergs except corruptors, and possibly hydras (why you'd ever make them I dunno).
\How do suggest to counter ultras then?
Marines? lol they could hug it to death maybe?
Marauders i assume your about to say. However its the BL ultra tech swich which kills. If youve massed marauders, then the BL with just out right kill you as lings wreck marauders.
Thors? With the NP change actually this may be viable. Atm infestor ultra just owns Thors.
You can fungal banshees to death.
Ghosts are only good with superb micro and tons of them, and cloak. Ill admit making 20 cloaked ghosts, scanning and sniping the overseer as you walk in does seem a little gay. Maybe make overseer immune to snipe.
Personally I don't think snipe is a big deal. It's an extremely awesome spell, maybe even imba awesome (in the same way a lot of things are imbalanced on each race but all kind of even eachother out), but Terran should have a spellcaster for ZvT, and it takes lots of them to be good.
And NP isn't particularly great in ZvT. Siege tanks, as well as ghosts, prevent that. As a Zerg player, I don't think NP change will affect ZvT at all.
Ghosts are only good with superb micro and tons of them, and cloak. Ill admit making 20 cloaked ghosts, scanning and sniping the overseer as you walk in does seem a little gay. Maybe make overseer immune to snipe.
It is kinda gay, but oh well. Ling/Bane actually crushes ghosts, ghosts en masse only work when Terran has a huge macro advantage.
On September 14 2011 06:43 Belial88 wrote: ^ Siege tanks.
Personally I don't think snipe is a big deal. It's an extremely awesome spell, maybe even imba awesome (in the same way a lot of things are imbalanced on each race but all kind of even eachother out), but Terran should have a spellcaster for ZvT, and it takes lots of them to be good.
And NP isn't particularly great in ZvT. Siege tanks, as well as ghosts, prevent that. As a Zerg player, I don't think NP change will affect ZvT at all.
Ghosts are only good with superb micro and tons of them, and cloak. Ill admit making 20 cloaked ghosts, scanning and sniping the overseer as you walk in does seem a little gay. Maybe make overseer immune to snipe.
It is kinda gay, but oh well. Ling/Bane actually crushes ghosts, ghosts en masse only work when Terran has a huge macro advantage.
NP change will make mass mech style very difficult to handle. Hellions mean speedlings are not a good choice - between blue flames (whos change will not affact hellion vs ling) and tank shells, lings will simply be a waste of money and larvae. Blue flamers roaming the map forces tons of static defense as number of bases increase, siege tanks carve roaches to pieces and thors crush air units (especially if turrets are spread across the entire map to give the detection) as well as prove magnificent support fire. A slowpush from 2 bases to secure a third behind it I anticipate will be impossible to stop since the only real way to deal with mech right now is ridiculously fast brood lords (which is impossible vs a competent terran) or mass NP on thors to punch a hole and then sink wave after wave of roaches in to finish the job. Take NP out of the equation and roaches will melt so fast its not even funny - and what are behind our "tank units" to deal the actual damage then?
On September 14 2011 06:43 Belial88 wrote: ^ Siege tanks.
Personally I don't think snipe is a big deal. It's an extremely awesome spell, maybe even imba awesome (in the same way a lot of things are imbalanced on each race but all kind of even eachother out), but Terran should have a spellcaster for ZvT, and it takes lots of them to be good.
And NP isn't particularly great in ZvT. Siege tanks, as well as ghosts, prevent that. As a Zerg player, I don't think NP change will affect ZvT at all.
Ghosts are only good with superb micro and tons of them, and cloak. Ill admit making 20 cloaked ghosts, scanning and sniping the overseer as you walk in does seem a little gay. Maybe make overseer immune to snipe.
It is kinda gay, but oh well. Ling/Bane actually crushes ghosts, ghosts en masse only work when Terran has a huge macro advantage.
Dont tanks get kinda mega rolled by ultras? I really thought they did. If not thats actually a really awesome thing that i never knew. I see ultras so rarely i dont get to test it out as ill usually have quite a lot of thors by then as theyve probably gone spire>muta>BL
Dont tanks get kinda mega rolled by ultras? I really thought they did. If not thats actually a really awesome thing that i never knew. I see ultras so rarely i dont get to test it out as ill usually have quite a lot of thors by then as theyve probably gone spire>muta>BL
It's a number game. If Terran has been slowly upping siege tanks all game, and didn't lose them all in a stupid push and then be denied from expanding to make up for it, then ultras are a bad choice. If you made Broodlords, or lots of mutas, and managed to kill off half his siege tanks, then terran will pretty much in complete mercy of Zerg. From there, he can make marauders to deal with ultras and then get stomped by ling/bane/muta, or he can make marines and hope you don't make ling/bane/muta.
But in general, if terran has lots of siege tanks, you don't want ultras. If you somehow did something to cut his tank count down, then ultras are amazing and will roll Terran unless he has that critical mass of siege tanks.
NP change will make mass mech style very difficult to handle. Hellions mean speedlings are not a good choice - between blue flames (whos change will not affact hellion vs ling) and tank shells, lings will simply be a waste of money and larvae. Blue flamers roaming the map forces tons of static defense as number of bases increase, siege tanks carve roaches to pieces and thors crush air units (especially if turrets are spread across the entire map to give the detection) as well as prove magnificent support fire. A slowpush from 2 bases to secure a third behind it I anticipate will be impossible to stop since the only real way to deal with mech right now is ridiculously fast brood lords (which is impossible vs a competent terran) or mass NP on thors to punch a hole and then sink wave after wave of roaches in to finish the job. Take NP out of the equation and roaches will melt so fast its not even funny - and what are behind our "tank units" to deal the actual damage then?
Mass mech was easily handled before the infestor buff, and no one really used infestors to deal with mass mech. Siege tanks crush infestors, and trying to NP thors while siege tanks are raining down you, you lose. Some terran also have the foresight to go 0 weapons/3 armor to better deal with NP, as well.
The best way to deal with a 2 base deathpush is to either go mass roaches if he went heavier on hellions, or mass mutas, which will crush his push unless he has marines (4 mutas beat 1 thor when magic boxed, and it only gets better with splash). Idra always goes mutas against mech on his stream, and he does very well with it.
Making 3 spines per base to nullify 20 hellions is definitely worth it. It's also a lot about army positioning.
Imo, the hunter-seeker missile speed increase will help fight against packs of mutas. However, I am not entirely sure how fast 0.4 seconds more is in SCII. And the muta is still approx 0.75 seconds faster. Again, I don't know how fast that is.
On September 12 2011 12:20 PenguinWithNuke wrote: That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
Zergs were designed to be a race that can get a macro-advantage unless the opponent plays a heavy, heavy pressure-style. The thing is, protoss never really had a build that was able to both apply pressure and not be completely all-in. The reason for that was/is that you can't afford to lose your sentries in midgame. If you attack with your sentries, you either win with them, or you lose them which more or less equals losing the game too.
This is why the protoss 3 base turtle style came up. Zerg always had absurd supply-leads, but they failed to capitalize. Mainly because the grotesque QQ of IdrA and others proved to be an obstacle that apparently prevented many zergs from trying out new stuff. I've seen quite a lot of korean games where heavy nydus play and sudden muta-switches were used vs the bunker-deathball-style.
Now with the infestor-buff, zergs are competitive (read: have the advantage) in BOTH of the aforementioned aspects. They still have the macro-advantage: if you go 3 gate expo, zerg drones up on 2 base faster than you. if you go FFE, zerg gets a quick third. I've never, ever seen a game where a competent zerg that a) doesn't get all-in-ed b) ends up with fewer drones than toss in midgame. We toss-players accept that as part of the design-choice of Blizz as to how this match-up will play out. Nevertheless, with strong infestors, our deathball is now ALSO weaker than the zerg-deathball! You say "letting zerg get xyz..." - remember, this is EXACTLY how protoss-players talked to zerg. "If you let protoss get xyz..." - what's the difference? The difference is, that previously zergs were able to literally take the whole map while the toss was restrained/contained on 3 bases. How on earth am I supposed to "not let zerg get xyz..." when zerg has an inherent macro-advantage already by design? Overall, either of two things must happen to re-balance PvZ, which had a worse win-% for toss than PvT in last GSL: a) "Give toss a strong midgame that is not all-in and that can put real pressure on droning zergs." Very unlikely, I have no idea how this could ever work with the given sets of units. You can't buff void rays, phoenixes, DTs, or w/e, so until HotS, where I expect some major design-changes, we are stuck with the current overall PvZ metagame. b) "Give toss the stronger maxed-out deathball:" and this is what we see now. If you put toss at the macro-disadvantage throughout midgame, they really "have" to have the stronger 200/200 ball. Even with the very minor infestor-change I somewhat doubt that it will pan out that way, since infestor/broodlord an remaxing on only roach while toss tries to get the counter to infestor/broodlord will still be incredibly strong. Nevertheless the P-deathball-buff/Z-deathball-nerf is required by the current way PvZ puts restraints on the set of possible protoss strategies.
Thanks for clarifying. It seems to me that P needs a harassment unit that can go around and kill stuff, to decrease the amount of infestors that zerg can get.
If only P had some sort of unit that could cloak and kill things with horrifying efficiency, but could also warp in via gateways and go anywhere! Man. I certainly hope they add such an unit.
I was thinking about that, but every zerg uses spores. A spore and a spine kills nullifies DT harass. Phoenix fare better, but I can't remember a pro game with them. Can you link one to me?
On September 12 2011 12:20 PenguinWithNuke wrote: That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
Zergs were designed to be a race that can get a macro-advantage unless the opponent plays a heavy, heavy pressure-style. The thing is, protoss never really had a build that was able to both apply pressure and not be completely all-in. The reason for that was/is that you can't afford to lose your sentries in midgame. If you attack with your sentries, you either win with them, or you lose them which more or less equals losing the game too.
This is why the protoss 3 base turtle style came up. Zerg always had absurd supply-leads, but they failed to capitalize. Mainly because the grotesque QQ of IdrA and others proved to be an obstacle that apparently prevented many zergs from trying out new stuff. I've seen quite a lot of korean games where heavy nydus play and sudden muta-switches were used vs the bunker-deathball-style.
Now with the infestor-buff, zergs are competitive (read: have the advantage) in BOTH of the aforementioned aspects. They still have the macro-advantage: if you go 3 gate expo, zerg drones up on 2 base faster than you. if you go FFE, zerg gets a quick third. I've never, ever seen a game where a competent zerg that a) doesn't get all-in-ed b) ends up with fewer drones than toss in midgame. We toss-players accept that as part of the design-choice of Blizz as to how this match-up will play out. Nevertheless, with strong infestors, our deathball is now ALSO weaker than the zerg-deathball! You say "letting zerg get xyz..." - remember, this is EXACTLY how protoss-players talked to zerg. "If you let protoss get xyz..." - what's the difference? The difference is, that previously zergs were able to literally take the whole map while the toss was restrained/contained on 3 bases. How on earth am I supposed to "not let zerg get xyz..." when zerg has an inherent macro-advantage already by design? Overall, either of two things must happen to re-balance PvZ, which had a worse win-% for toss than PvT in last GSL: a) "Give toss a strong midgame that is not all-in and that can put real pressure on droning zergs." Very unlikely, I have no idea how this could ever work with the given sets of units. You can't buff void rays, phoenixes, DTs, or w/e, so until HotS, where I expect some major design-changes, we are stuck with the current overall PvZ metagame. b) "Give toss the stronger maxed-out deathball:" and this is what we see now. If you put toss at the macro-disadvantage throughout midgame, they really "have" to have the stronger 200/200 ball. Even with the very minor infestor-change I somewhat doubt that it will pan out that way, since infestor/broodlord an remaxing on only roach while toss tries to get the counter to infestor/broodlord will still be incredibly strong. Nevertheless the P-deathball-buff/Z-deathball-nerf is required by the current way PvZ puts restraints on the set of possible protoss strategies.
Thanks for clarifying. It seems to me that P needs a harassment unit that can go around and kill stuff, to decrease the amount of infestors that zerg can get.
If only P had some sort of unit that could cloak and kill things with horrifying efficiency, but could also warp in via gateways and go anywhere! Man. I certainly hope they add such an unit.
Dt's are just very risky to tech too. Late game sure, they're okay, but recently a lot of Zerg pros have realized that you have to have 2-3 Spine Crawlers and a spore crawler at your expansions. Without it, you deserve to lose the base really.
On September 14 2011 02:57 aebriol wrote: Thinking about it more and more ...
I think Ultralisks should be immune to snipe.
I just don't think it's right that ghosts counter every single units above tier 1 for zergs except corruptors, and possibly hydras (why you'd ever make them I dunno).
\How do suggest to counter ultras then?
Marines? lol they could hug it to death maybe?
Marauders i assume your about to say. However its the BL ultra tech swich which kills. If youve massed marauders, then the BL with just out right kill you as lings wreck marauders.
Thors? With the NP change actually this may be viable. Atm infestor ultra just owns Thors.
You can fungal banshees to death.
Ghosts are only good with superb micro and tons of them, and cloak. Ill admit making 20 cloaked ghosts, scanning and sniping the overseer as you walk in does seem a little gay. Maybe make overseer immune to snipe.
The counter to Ultras is simply having stuff. MM counters them, Ghosts counter them, tanklines counter them, massthor counter them, air counters them(banshees and battlecruisers - see MVP vs Dimaga) The only 2 times Ultras are good, is when they are rushed (like the 15min Ling/Infestor/Ultra timing), because your opponent simply doesnt have enough stuff at this time or to remax after a big battle, because zerg remaxes faster, and therefore your opponent simply doesnt have a lot of stuff. I guess the reason for ultras being countered by just having a lot of units is, that they actually don't get a lot of hits on opponents, as it takes time to get close and then they attack spread out units, instead of splashing balls (which are usually moving away, which makes it even harder to hit them). The reason they so well, when your opponent doesnt have a lot of stuff, is just that he is missing firepower. Even if the ultras attack single targets and get stuck and stuff, in the end you need to kill them.
About Ultra/Infestor... Like BL/Infestor it is a composition that you would have to compare to Thor/Ghost or something like this in the amount of time it takes to get there and the amount of gas it costs. Also fungal growth just works with every zerg unit. It's not the ultra that is strong, it's the infestor that makes every zerg unit strong, up to the point were hydras start raping MMM!
^ Huh? Stargate openers have been almost the majority of openings in PvZ in the last 3 months.
A spore + spine doesn't nullify DT harass, I believe it takes 3 DTs to kill the spore (or spine) in time. Protoss definitely does need a cheap harass unit that won't end up losing the game for them if they make it and it doesn't do any damage, and isn't a complete coin toss that wins if the opponent doesn't scout and completely loses if it is scouted or sensed (which is kind of bad game design on Blizz's part on discouraging early game scouting).
On September 14 2011 11:47 Belial88 wrote: ^ Huh? Stargate openers have been almost the majority of openings in PvZ in the last 3 months.
A spore + spine doesn't nullify DT harass, I believe it takes 3 DTs to kill the spore (or spine) in time. Protoss definitely does need a cheap harass unit that won't end up losing the game for them if they make it and it doesn't do any damage, and isn't a complete coin toss that wins if the opponent doesn't scout and completely loses if it is scouted or sensed (which is kind of bad game design on Blizz's part on discouraging early game scouting).
lol? sure 1 base cheese DTs lose the game if the do nothing. Well thats not even true but meh. 2/ base DT/ phoenix are fine. Not sure what your on about with the scouting thing. Surely having such a crazy strong auto win unit if unscouted promotes scouting
On September 12 2011 12:20 PenguinWithNuke wrote: That's probably not the reason why you lose. If you let a zerg do anything like get 20 infestors, it's not the infestors that are killing you. Think about it. They're really expensive units in terms of gas, and die really quickly. You have to research NP. If you allow a zerg to get 20 infestors... well, you have bigger problems than the infestors.
Zergs were designed to be a race that can get a macro-advantage unless the opponent plays a heavy, heavy pressure-style. The thing is, protoss never really had a build that was able to both apply pressure and not be completely all-in. The reason for that was/is that you can't afford to lose your sentries in midgame. If you attack with your sentries, you either win with them, or you lose them which more or less equals losing the game too.
This is why the protoss 3 base turtle style came up. Zerg always had absurd supply-leads, but they failed to capitalize. Mainly because the grotesque QQ of IdrA and others proved to be an obstacle that apparently prevented many zergs from trying out new stuff. I've seen quite a lot of korean games where heavy nydus play and sudden muta-switches were used vs the bunker-deathball-style.
Now with the infestor-buff, zergs are competitive (read: have the advantage) in BOTH of the aforementioned aspects. They still have the macro-advantage: if you go 3 gate expo, zerg drones up on 2 base faster than you. if you go FFE, zerg gets a quick third. I've never, ever seen a game where a competent zerg that a) doesn't get all-in-ed b) ends up with fewer drones than toss in midgame. We toss-players accept that as part of the design-choice of Blizz as to how this match-up will play out. Nevertheless, with strong infestors, our deathball is now ALSO weaker than the zerg-deathball! You say "letting zerg get xyz..." - remember, this is EXACTLY how protoss-players talked to zerg. "If you let protoss get xyz..." - what's the difference? The difference is, that previously zergs were able to literally take the whole map while the toss was restrained/contained on 3 bases. How on earth am I supposed to "not let zerg get xyz..." when zerg has an inherent macro-advantage already by design? Overall, either of two things must happen to re-balance PvZ, which had a worse win-% for toss than PvT in last GSL: a) "Give toss a strong midgame that is not all-in and that can put real pressure on droning zergs." Very unlikely, I have no idea how this could ever work with the given sets of units. You can't buff void rays, phoenixes, DTs, or w/e, so until HotS, where I expect some major design-changes, we are stuck with the current overall PvZ metagame. b) "Give toss the stronger maxed-out deathball:" and this is what we see now. If you put toss at the macro-disadvantage throughout midgame, they really "have" to have the stronger 200/200 ball. Even with the very minor infestor-change I somewhat doubt that it will pan out that way, since infestor/broodlord an remaxing on only roach while toss tries to get the counter to infestor/broodlord will still be incredibly strong. Nevertheless the P-deathball-buff/Z-deathball-nerf is required by the current way PvZ puts restraints on the set of possible protoss strategies.
Thanks for clarifying. It seems to me that P needs a harassment unit that can go around and kill stuff, to decrease the amount of infestors that zerg can get.
If only P had some sort of unit that could cloak and kill things with horrifying efficiency, but could also warp in via gateways and go anywhere! Man. I certainly hope they add such an unit.
Dt's are just very risky to tech too. Late game sure, they're okay, but recently a lot of Zerg pros have realized that you have to have 2-3 Spine Crawlers and a spore crawler at your expansions. Without it, you deserve to lose the base really.
Go and watch macro Protoss players like Sage... They neither are behind in the worker count (chrono Nexi are pretty much as strong as queen+hatch, as zerg has to get all his buildings+OLs from them too) nor do they ever stop with the air+warpin+dt+blink aggression. Deathballs have been solved in the proscene and that's good, because they simply make games boring to watch, waiting till the maxcap is reached... Also talking about "Deathballs". There is no zerg deathball... Ling/Infestor is a highly mobile composition and does not engage in balls and can't attack in narrow chokes. Infestor/broodlord+stuff is the same. It doesn't play like a deathball, that always sticks together. It plays like a Marine/tank army that can spread out and split if there is need to.
I do agree that protoss players have been struggling lately (in the GSL) and I think, that it is not only because of their 1base cheeses and 2base allins (MC won 2 GSL titles with them and is now being beaten up by everyone) have been solved. It is rather a mixture of small balance problems (1-1-1, fungal growth) AND the solid leaders of the protoss race sticking to old styles, while new hopes (Sage, Puzzle, Tassadar...) still have and had to make it through Code A.
Last I want to add, that talking about "how races are designed and supposed to play..." is just bullshit. There were times in this game, when Protoss players claimed that the only way to safely expand vs zerg is by building 4gates. Then they invented 3gate expands. Then they invented FFEs & Nexus first. Then they invented 1gate expand... And all of those builds turned out to be safe openers. Same for zerg. It started with pool-->hatch and turned into hatch-->pool. Then the canon rushes stopped hatch first and speedling expand became standard play and hell yeah, July even started the comback of 1base roach when Ps started to FFE. The game has developed and will still develope for the next years... Players get better and people like MC hold roach/ling allins that were said to be "completly broken against 3gate expand" without forge or canons. (i could go on here forever, talking about archons and speedzealots, the comback of the baneling in ZvP and so on and so...)
On September 13 2011 10:51 Supamang wrote: Scan is not expensive. And dont give me that talking point "MULES cost 270 minerals". They dont. They only mine those minerals faster. If you dont call a MULE those minerals will still come in later.
Why bother to make extra workers then? One worker should suffice, you'll get all those minerals eventually anyway, right?
The whole set of "XXX costs YYY minerals" statements are underspecified; they don't take into account the time value of money (minerals/gas in this case). 270 minerals now is worth more than 270 minerals 15 minutes from now. A lot more.
If you didn't take things like that into account, zerg buildings cost tons of minerals due to opportunity cost of the drone. Then again, that cost is paid for by 1 larva and 50 mins. So 1 larva + 50 mins = tons and tons of minerals, right? Sounds silly. But it's true, because those minerals are taken over a long period of time.
Analogously, terran can either say that a scan costs 270 minerals (over the lifetime of a MULE), which it does given fixed number of orbital commands, OR a scan every (recharge rate of 50 energy) costs 400 minerals + scv build time spent not mining, invested (orbital command build time) before a scan is desired. Both options are available, and both are possible prices for scans. They are, however, still prices when compared to some default option (muling).
Later on in the game, mules put terrans econ ahead of the other races, due to oversaturation and/or gold bases. Early on, the mules are necessary to compensate for slower worker production rate, the necessary cutting of two scvs while the orbital morphs, and the higher infrastructure cost of terran production structures and depots (scv isn't mining).
So, in the late game, scans are pretty much free. Early on, they are very very expensive.
Im not saying getting minerals later rather than now is totally without cost, im saying that Terrans tend to exaggerate the cost of scanning in place of a MULE. They often say "It costs 270 minerals to scan!" which is fallacious. When a Protoss spends the 25/75 on an observer, those are resources they have already mined and will never get back. Same for Zerg, the overseer costs 50/50 that they will never get back. A scan "costs" 270, but not only does that 270 not get expended immediately (a MULE mines 270 over a period of time), those minerals are still there to be mined later, unlike the resources spent on an observer or an overseer.
Terrans who love to mention the idea that "270 minerals now is worth more than 270 minerals later" seem to ignore the fact that the 25/75 and 50/50 for the observer and overseer are also resources that the player gives up NOW. Except, as mentioned before, those resources given up will never be recovered, unlike for MULES.
(ps. it doesnt take 15 minutes to mine 270 minerals)
Yes, scans early game are much more expensive in a relative sense, but the post I quoted was talking about mid game.
Secondly, it doesnt matter that scans early game cost a lot. The fact that Terrans have the option of scanning early game is already a HUGE advantage for detection over the other 2 races. All races have a flying mobile detector (observer, overseer, raven) and a stationary detector (spores, turrets, cannons). Only Terran gets the on-demand detector scan. Sure a MULE is hard to give up early game, but if its the choice between giving up a MULE or losing 10 SCVs to DTs it shouldnt be a hard choice to make. If the guy rushes DTs and hides his Dark Shrine and gets DTs into your base, you can scan in a pinch. If the same happens to Zerg or Protoss, they dont even have that option. All races can build static detection if they suspect cloak play early, but only Terran can scan if they get caught off guard.
Lastly, I like to leave out the whole opportunity cost discussion if I can because it simply gets too arbitrary and complicated if we bring it up. Trying to calculate the opportunity cost of buildings for Zerg would be too annoying to discuss because wed have to calculate the mining time lost for the drone lost + the drone cost itself + opportunity cost of larva spent on a drone instead of something else and whatnot. Its not really helpful to bring all of that up in this discussion
^ Zerg's scouting options are very limited early game, and often times can be completely denied. For example, fast third will always beat FFE, but FFE can win if the zerg doesn't know exactly what's going on.
2 base DT or stargate play will always lose if they fail to do any damage at all, that's the problem with Protoss harass. Usually some damage can be done (largely due to Zerg's issues with early game scouting).
Or P could use DTs like Thors. For their burst damage and as (invisible) walls. I was on the receiving end of it. Good thing I had energy for scan. I'd imagine Zerg would have a huge problem if a few DTs were mixed in.
Idunno, to me DTs were like super reaper/hellions/thors all-in-one. Economy isn't everything. Sparta for many years crushed Athens despite their wealth (hired mercenaries). IANAZ.
On September 14 2011 14:13 Belial88 wrote: ^ why do you say such goofy things? DTs and banshees and mutas and hydras, they are all horrible as combat units because they die way too fast.
Coming from a protoss that's lost his fair share of games to 1-1-1 builds, I don't think you can say banshees aren't at least decent combat units. A better comparison might be a ghost, but ghosts are surprisingly resilient units too.
Compared to stimmed marauders without a medivac, banshees have essentially the same damage against an armored target and double their damage against non-armored enemies. The banshee has 35 more HP after a stim, and only marginally slower movement. On top of that, it is unaffected by terrain or force fields, and has cloaking which can greatly extend its life.
The real reason we don't see banshees as a main army unit is the high tech requirement, and the long build time. In the time it takes to make 1 banshee, 2 marauders could be on the field.
Dark templar don't really die too quickly, especially with a guardian shield and proper positioning and force fields. However, they fall far behind zealots in terms of build time. A warpgate that just made a DT takes 60% longer to cooldown than one that made a zealot. I'd much rather spend 800 minerals for 8 zealots than 625minerals and 625 gas for 5 DTs, even though if they were allowed to just sit and do damage, the 5 DTs would win.
On September 14 2011 17:56 Thraundil wrote: ^ I guess referring to banshees actually doing quite well vs stalkers in smaller numbers. (Just like banshees cream hydralisks in small numbers).
Not sure how you're calling stalkers the 'counter' to banshees. Banshees only to air to ground damage - there's no way you're calling a ground unit the 'counter' to them.
Any case as a Terran player I'm pretty stoked about hunter seeker. Really excited to try out some hunter seeker/bc comps late game ZvT cause now I can actually hunter seeker corrupters. Ultra build time decrease seems kind of annoying but I don't think anyone was really pushing a 15 second window in TvZ when there are no ultras out - their build time was silly large anyway. Neural nerf seems kinda strange, would rather they did something like make fungal 100 energy and let infestors cap out at 250 energy. But then again, they made strike cannon a worthless spell too so w/e.
Immortal pushes look scarier now but they've always been scary anyway. Not sure really what difference 5 to 6 range will make fighting them. Might see some midgame immortal heavy armies but if I scout that I'll just try to go really marine heavy. Immortal heavy midgame means robo time is devoted to them, not collusi. Made a big difference for roaches but you have so many roaches it matters more with them.
Warp prism buff makes me sad - I wish they simply switched the shields and HP, not just add shields. Killing a warp prism that's warping DT's into your base might not happen before the DT's get in so that's annoying, but I think it's another one of their 'HEY LOOK AT ME' changes, rather then anything else. Glad about blink nerf, although I'm not sure there's any timing designed to hit exactly as blink finishes and just move a chrono over to blink and it probably finishes in about the same time as if you were aiming to hit exactly as it finishes.
Blue flame nerf only affects TvT really imo. If I drop 4 red flame hellions, you'll be as screwed as if I dropped 3 blue flame (for the most part). If you could deal with 3 blue flame, you'll surely deal with 4 red flame, and if you couldn't deal with 3 blue flame, you can't deal with 4 red flame. Who knows - might even be better to drop As for vs Zerg I never really counted on 2 hellions to kill a ton of lings. If I wanted to completely nullify lings I'd get like 10 hellions. Then I don't even need blue flame. Or if I got a few, I'd count on holding the naga towers till mutas came out/roaches. I'm just not sure how this will change my gameplay at all really.
Sure at the highest levels things look drastically different but I'm just posting my thoughts off my games.
On September 13 2011 10:51 Supamang wrote: Scan is not expensive. And dont give me that talking point "MULES cost 270 minerals". They dont. They only mine those minerals faster. If you dont call a MULE those minerals will still come in later.
Why bother to make extra workers then? One worker should suffice, you'll get all those minerals eventually anyway, right?
The whole set of "XXX costs YYY minerals" statements are underspecified; they don't take into account the time value of money (minerals/gas in this case). 270 minerals now is worth more than 270 minerals 15 minutes from now. A lot more.
If you didn't take things like that into account, zerg buildings cost tons of minerals due to opportunity cost of the drone. Then again, that cost is paid for by 1 larva and 50 mins. So 1 larva + 50 mins = tons and tons of minerals, right? Sounds silly. But it's true, because those minerals are taken over a long period of time.
Analogously, terran can either say that a scan costs 270 minerals (over the lifetime of a MULE), which it does given fixed number of orbital commands, OR a scan every (recharge rate of 50 energy) costs 400 minerals + scv build time spent not mining, invested (orbital command build time) before a scan is desired. Both options are available, and both are possible prices for scans. They are, however, still prices when compared to some default option (muling).
Later on in the game, mules put terrans econ ahead of the other races, due to oversaturation and/or gold bases. Early on, the mules are necessary to compensate for slower worker production rate, the necessary cutting of two scvs while the orbital morphs, and the higher infrastructure cost of terran production structures and depots (scv isn't mining).
So, in the late game, scans are pretty much free. Early on, they are very very expensive.
Im not saying getting minerals later rather than now is totally without cost, im saying that Terrans tend to exaggerate the cost of scanning in place of a MULE. They often say "It costs 270 minerals to scan!" which is fallacious. When a Protoss spends the 25/75 on an observer, those are resources they have already mined and will never get back. Same for Zerg, the overseer costs 50/50 that they will never get back. A scan "costs" 270, but not only does that 270 not get expended immediately (a MULE mines 270 over a period of time), those minerals are still there to be mined later, unlike the resources spent on an observer or an overseer.
Terrans who love to mention the idea that "270 minerals now is worth more than 270 minerals later" seem to ignore the fact that the 25/75 and 50/50 for the observer and overseer are also resources that the player gives up NOW. Except, as mentioned before, those resources given up will never be recovered, unlike for MULES.
(ps. it doesnt take 15 minutes to mine 270 minerals)
Yes, scans early game are much more expensive in a relative sense, but the post I quoted was talking about mid game.
Secondly, it doesnt matter that scans early game cost a lot. The fact that Terrans have the option of scanning early game is already a HUGE advantage for detection over the other 2 races. All races have a flying mobile detector (observer, overseer, raven) and a stationary detector (spores, turrets, cannons). Only Terran gets the on-demand detector scan. Sure a MULE is hard to give up early game, but if its the choice between giving up a MULE or losing 10 SCVs to DTs it shouldnt be a hard choice to make. If the guy rushes DTs and hides his Dark Shrine and gets DTs into your base, you can scan in a pinch. If the same happens to Zerg or Protoss, they dont even have that option. All races can build static detection if they suspect cloak play early, but only Terran can scan if they get caught off guard.
Lastly, I like to leave out the whole opportunity cost discussion if I can because it simply gets too arbitrary and complicated if we bring it up. Trying to calculate the opportunity cost of buildings for Zerg would be too annoying to discuss because wed have to calculate the mining time lost for the drone lost + the drone cost itself + opportunity cost of larva spent on a drone instead of something else and whatnot. Its not really helpful to bring all of that up in this discussion
I dont think you understand early games MULEs. THey are necessary not a luxury. If you dont use them you are behind.
Its like saying that P also have the option of queing gateway units like T just dont make your gateways warp gates. You have to, otherwise you are behind.
A scan costs a MULE. Thats 270 min over some short period of time. You seem to be trying to argue that you cant say scans cost minerals. They just do. Flat out.
No, he simply states that it's opportunity cost vs actual cost.
Mules are an opportunity cost, if you dont make a mule you dont get additional 270 mins within a certain period of time. But those mins are STILL THERE.
Z/P detection is actual cost AND opportunity cost. Not only do they cost to make (and i argue that obs cost almost the same as mules when gas X 3 = mins and zerg costs more prepatch with gas x 3 = mins) But it's an opportunity cost since almost every non cheese P build is gas heavy and everything post Lair for zerg is gas heavy and that gas could go to those units/upgrades/tech AND in the case of P it delays build time (but since obs is cloaked i'll take that factor out and even say opportunity cost isn't lost since it's such a usable unit). Now lets discuss the building, you can say that since cannons and spores aren't gas heavy, that negates part of the cost. And thats mostly true, but effective cannon/spore placement often costs MORE then a scan would. Two cannons needed for effective placement (one at nexus, one near ramp) and a spore + 2/3 spines for zerg.
So while yes, a scan hurts T econ early game, not only is it more forgiving then other races but it is effectively cheaper to defend then in the other races.
"Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly?
Absolutely they do. There are many times I would love to go straight to blink stalkers, or to DTs, or to stargate play, but the specter of the opponent throwing some cloaked units at me is enough to force me to go Robo. Honestly I think it's downright crazy that you are forced to go early robo just in order to have detection. Cannons are expensive as hell and you can't really realistically afford putting one or two in your mineral line and others around your buildings in case a DT or cloaked banshee shows up. And when something does catch you off guard, that's 200/100 + 25/75 to get detection, plus 65+40 in build time. 105 seconds is more than enough for anything cloaked to kill you or set you seriously behind.
Lair is a tech choice every Zerg must make eventually as a prereq to other tech, and scan is so damned useful that every single Terran always has it and generally never bothers with Ravens.
Two cents on the mule/scan dichotomy: The opportunity cost of the scan would be the discounted sum of minerals collected over the mule's lifetime. The discount factor is important; there is a difference between throwing down a scan when you want to, and when you need to. It may be reasonable to say that a customary scan has a high discount factor i.e. you value the scan information right now more than the minerals foregone, so you discount the minerals heavily over a short period of time, this greatly reduces the opportunity cost of a scan.
Forcing a scan however, carries a much higher cost simply because a mule may have been preferable then. You could say that timely scans are needed to streamline mule call downs (i.e. a scan revealing a dark shrine shouldn't lead to all energy being spent on mules for a while)
Attributing value by lump sum amounts is misleading imo, since flow matters more in sc2. If gathering information now helps direct flow better, then the opportunity cost of gathering information drops drastically.
Z/P detection is actual cost AND opportunity cost. Not only do they cost to make (and i argue that obs cost almost the same as mules when gas X 3 = mins and zerg costs more prepatch with gas x 3 = mins) But it's an opportunity cost since almost every non cheese P build is gas heavy and everything post Lair for zerg is gas heavy and that gas could go to those units/upgrades/tech AND in the case of P it delays build time (but since obs is cloaked i'll take that factor out and even say opportunity cost isn't lost since it's such a usable unit). Now lets discuss the building, you can say that since cannons and spores aren't gas heavy, that negates part of the cost. And thats mostly true, but effective cannon/spore placement often costs MORE then a scan would. Two cannons needed for effective placement (one at nexus, one near ramp) and a spore + 2/3 spines for zerg.
The cost would only be the opportunity cost, you can't add the material (minerals+gas+time) cost twice. You can carry the discounting analogy further, in that the net value of a cannon or spore is the discounted sum of minerals it saves you over its lifetime (balanced against the discounted minerals extra drones could have gathered but remember that in the presence of a cloaked threat the discount factor is v high). This is generally a lot more than a scan. Forcing cannons or spores hurts, but adds value over time, a scan does not do this (but has a more favourable balance with respect to lost mining time).
Absolutely they do. There are many times I would love to go straight to blink stalkers, or to DTs, or to stargate play, but the specter of the opponent throwing some cloaked units at me is enough to force me to go Robo. Honestly I think it's downright crazy that you are forced to go early robo just in order to have detection. Cannons are expensive as hell and you can't really realistically afford putting one or two in your mineral line and others around your buildings in case a DT or cloaked banshee shows up. And when something does catch you off guard, that's 200/100 + 25/75 to get detection, plus 65+40 in build time. 105 seconds is more than enough for anything cloaked to kill you or set you seriously behind.
You need the observer to scout (and the present value of scouting is enormous). If you scout cloaked threats coming via other means, you will have to react, with cannons or a robo. The time can be cut short with chrono boosts. The game being reactionary, how is that crazy?
You need the observer to scout (and the present value of scouting is enormous). If you scout cloaked threats coming via other means, you will have to react, with cannons or a robo. The time can be cut short with chrono boosts. The game being reactionary, how is that crazy?
Terrans are fairly difficult to scout, and terran has such a strong defense in mineral-only units that they have the option to tech heavily from the get-go. If a protoss probe scouts too late and finds 2 depots and a bunker at the top of the ramp, he basically HAS to go robo tech because if the terran goes cloaked banshees, theres no scenario where the protoss doesnt get crushed by the cloaked banshee if he does not have observers out or very close to out by the time they arrive. (Or cannons, but who builds cannons blind vs terran).
Terran has the prime reactive detection in the scan. If terrans suspect foul play they save up their MULE - throw a scan and suddenly are ahead. Zerg has good reactive detection on lair tech, but is the race that generally techs the slowest which is why we see many spore crawlers nowadays. Protoss have hands down the worst reactive detection, and I dont understand why changes are not already being implemented, because we basically have a scenario where terrans wall in, protoss cant scout and is almost forced to go for a quick robotics facility, whilst the terran does whatever the hell he wants because he knows theres a high chance for the protoss to infact go for the robotics tech.
You could use hallucinated phoenix. Observers are used to keep continuous tabs on army composition and movement imo, rather than reactive scouting (though you can do that too of course). Notice that hallucinated phoenix share a lot of similarities with the scan, and are in fact better, since they are mobile and last longer.
On September 15 2011 19:01 chestnutcc wrote: You could use hallucinated phoenix. Observers are used to keep continuous tabs on army composition and movement imo, rather than reactive scouting (though you can do that too of course). Notice that hallucinated phoenix share a lot of similarities with the scan, and are in fact better, since they are mobile and last longer.
I think Protoss has the best scouting options in the game which is logical considering how slow we switch tech and the relative weakness of our T1 and static defenses. However protoss scouting is fairly slow on the field. Cloaked Banshee hits between 7:15-7:45. Hallucinated Phoenix won't reach the terran's base until around 7:30 at the earliest unless you go double cybercore or hallucination before WG. Neither is particularly appealing.
Now, a lot of the issue can easily be solved by being agressive with early stalkers and poking up the ramp to check for marauders but in the case of 2 depots, a bunker with only marines and no expo at 6:00 you have to build a robo. There is no going around it.
On September 15 2011 17:30 Thraundil wrote: Terrans are fairly difficult to scout, and terran has such a strong defense in mineral-only units that they have the option to tech heavily from the get-go. If a protoss probe scouts too late and finds 2 depots and a bunker at the top of the ramp, he basically HAS to go robo tech because if the terran goes cloaked banshees, theres no scenario where the protoss doesnt get crushed by the cloaked banshee if he does not have observers out or very close to out by the time they arrive. (Or cannons, but who builds cannons blind vs terran).
Terran has the prime reactive detection in the scan. If terrans suspect foul play they save up their MULE - throw a scan and suddenly are ahead. Zerg has good reactive detection on lair tech, but is the race that generally techs the slowest which is why we see many spore crawlers nowadays. Protoss have hands down the worst reactive detection, and I dont understand why changes are not already being implemented, because we basically have a scenario where terrans wall in, protoss cant scout and is almost forced to go for a quick robotics facility, whilst the terran does whatever the hell he wants because he knows theres a high chance for the protoss to infact go for the robotics tech.
Exactly. Terran can go any number of tech choices after his wall is up. Protoss has only one possible reaction. Since an observer is such an enormously expensive unit if you include the Robo, this puts the Protoss way behind if he doesn't plan to use Robo tech anyway. And since halluc is researched after cloaked banshees hit, as said above, there is no way around this.
So a walled-in terran knows that robo tech of some sort is coming. Luckily, with the warp prism being built out of the robo, that doesn't automatically mean immortal / colossus, but pre-warp prism buff it pretty much does.
Since cannons aren't mobile like spore crawlers, they are pretty much a no-go for protecting anything but the mineral line.
Also, Protoss lacks alternate means of knocking an enemy out of cloak, such as fungal or EMP - Protoss does not have a comparable spell that can reveal. And of course, no scan.
Lots of people overestimate the value of having a cloaked detector. While it is nice, it is very slow without the speed upgrade, and both the observer and the upgrade force the Protoss down very expensive tech choices. And an observer melts in a second when a Terran notices the ripple and scans.
I would like to see a change in how observers are made - e.g. built out of Nexus after Cyber Core, and increase the cost to something like 50/100. This would give Protoss a lot more freedom of tech.
"Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly?
Absolutely they do. There are many times I would love to go straight to blink stalkers, or to DTs, or to stargate play, but the specter of the opponent throwing some cloaked units at me is enough to force me to go Robo. Honestly I think it's downright crazy that you are forced to go early robo just in order to have detection. Cannons are expensive as hell and you can't really realistically afford putting one or two in your mineral line and others around your buildings in case a DT or cloaked banshee shows up. And when something does catch you off guard, that's 200/100 + 25/75 to get detection, plus 65+40 in build time. 105 seconds is more than enough for anything cloaked to kill you or set you seriously behind.
Lair is a tech choice every Zerg must make eventually as a prereq to other tech, and scan is so damned useful that every single Terran always has it and generally never bothers with Ravens.
I'm a zerg and I support this message
Toss is truly forced to get a robo for observers, which limits their potential builds in the mid game.
I'd be interested to hear how that wasn't the case with toss in BW, if I remember correctly, it was. Obs was still their only detector besides cannons and came out of the robo fac.
Early game cloaked units were much less scary in BW. A wraith couldn't take a dragoon 1v1 nor could it rack up 15 probe kills while cloaked. I think you could also have a cannon finish before a wraith could focus fire it down, at which point, its still burning cloak and not getting probe kills. Also, as far as I know (having not played BW in many many years), wraiths were never really viable in a straight up 1 base push after their worker line harass was done due. When a high damage, high range unit can cloak, it informs most of your strategies. The only thing I've been able to figure out is that you can usually get a 2 phoenix to the T base at around the time a banshee is popping out and try to snipe it and scout for if cloak is researching.
With NeuralParasite nerf, skill is beecoming useless & shuld be trashed. there is no unit worth going NP now. (U can NP immortals, but if u are going for NP because u scout them, u are stupid. )
Wise man said: Gods creations were perfect until Roach+Hydra+Corruptor.
What was the tech time difference in DTs or Lurker (vs Roach Burrow tech) in BW?
On September 16 2011 00:02 Declination wrote: The only thing I've been able to figure out is that you can usually get a 2 phoenix to the T base at around the time a banshee is popping out and try to snipe it and scout for if cloak is researching.
Also - couldn't you hallucinate scout? Or does that delay obs too long in case of them going banshee?
"Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly?
Absolutely they do. There are many times I would love to go straight to blink stalkers, or to DTs, or to stargate play, but the specter of the opponent throwing some cloaked units at me is enough to force me to go Robo. Honestly I think it's downright crazy that you are forced to go early robo just in order to have detection. Cannons are expensive as hell and you can't really realistically afford putting one or two in your mineral line and others around your buildings in case a DT or cloaked banshee shows up. And when something does catch you off guard, that's 200/100 + 25/75 to get detection, plus 65+40 in build time. 105 seconds is more than enough for anything cloaked to kill you or set you seriously behind.
Lair is a tech choice every Zerg must make eventually as a prereq to other tech, and scan is so damned useful that every single Terran always has it and generally never bothers with Ravens.
I'm a zerg and I support this message
Toss is truly forced to get a robo for observers, which limits their potential builds in the mid game.
The lack of Protoss early detection does seem rather unfair, maybe if like, Hallucinated Observers could detect or something that's be cool, wouldn't make any sense but it would be cool.
Zerg don't really suffer from a lack of detection till late game having to rely on Overseers which are super easy to kill off, but at least the lowering of their cost by 50 gas makes it more affordable to replace them when they get picked off.
Zerg just needs some improved form of early scouting and I'd be happy. Give Zergs better early scouting and Protoss some kind of more affordable early mobile detection.
On September 16 2011 00:12 Reithan wrote: What was the tech time difference in DTs or Lurker (vs Roach Burrow tech) in BW?
Also - couldn't you hallucinate scout? Or does that delay obs too long in case of them going banshee?
I'm not sure about the DTs but it seemed like in PvP everyone got a Robo for the reavers anyway. Lurkers you could sort of stall and can't bypass the terrain.
I've found that rushing Robo is kind of touch and go since if you have an obs, you want to scout their base, but the cloaked banshee always seem to hit when the obs is almost to their base and the second obs is not done/not started. I feel like you need to make 2 obs always if you are afraid of cloaked banshees. Phoenixes are so fast and build so fast with chrono that you can get the scout much earlier and see if the are researching cloak.
I've been favoring the real phoenix since at my level (low masters) if they are going for 1-1-1 I can usually pick off the first banshee and keep them in their base for longer and it stands up decently against tank only 1 base pushes. For me, its not so much an issue of seeing the banshees coming but stopping them in such a way that doesn't leave me vulnerable to other tech plays. I'm usually reasonably confident if they are going for mm or some kind of tech by the time I need to throw down a starport, so I just do, since it seems to work out ok.
On September 15 2011 23:55 Reithan wrote: I'd be interested to hear how that wasn't the case with toss in BW, if I remember correctly, it was. Obs was still their only detector besides cannons and came out of the robo fac.
Unfortunately in PvT there wasn't as much potential for Terran to cripple Protoss without detection.
Also, Protoss is considered the weakest of the 3 races in BW, so maybe that isn't such a good thing?
If protoss makes observer he will not be producing Colossus or immortals, he'll be weakier. Observers are so easily sniped that is a bullshit doing 4 observers just to see what tech he is dumping !
Can't anyone see this? Terran has so freely scout with scan plus detection....zerg has most mobile unit that is lings and overlords for spooting (that custs less then scan), but protoss has to expose his army to scout, or stop robo units for observers....this game is a big troll in protoss face !
On September 21 2011 00:51 The_DarkAngelz wrote: Protoss lacks scouting and detection DOT
If protoss makes observer he will not be producing Colossus or immortals, he'll be weakier. Observers are so easily sniped that is a bullshit doing 4 observers just to see what tech he is dumping !
Can't anyone see this? Terran has so freely scout with scan plus detection....zerg has most mobile unit that is lings and overlords for spooting (that custs less then scan), but protoss has to expose his army to scout, or stop robo units for observers....this game is a big troll in protoss face !
Hallucinate a Phoenix next time? I don't think scouting is Protoss's biggest problem right now as a race, and its certainly not behind Terran of all races. There's a reason why pro Terrans almost never Scan, and its not because they don't need to, or want to, scout.
On September 21 2011 00:51 The_DarkAngelz wrote: Protoss lacks scouting and detection DOT
If protoss makes observer he will not be producing Colossus or immortals, he'll be weakier. Observers are so easily sniped that is a bullshit doing 4 observers just to see what tech he is dumping !
Can't anyone see this? Terran has so freely scout with scan plus detection....zerg has most mobile unit that is lings and overlords for spooting (that custs less then scan), but protoss has to expose his army to scout, or stop robo units for observers....this game is a big troll in protoss face !
Hallucinate a Phoenix next time? I don't think scouting is Protoss's biggest problem right now as a race, and its certainly not behind Terran of all races. There's a reason why pro Terrans almost never Scan, and its not because they don't need to, or want to, scout.
Scouting is a HUGE issue for Protoss. Believe it or not.
Pro Terrans rarely scan because they don't need to. There are 1-2 timings PvT where they have to scan if they want to be 100% safe, but mostly they can work sufficiently enough with what info their SCV gets.
On September 15 2011 23:55 Reithan wrote: I'd be interested to hear how that wasn't the case with toss in BW, if I remember correctly, it was. Obs was still their only detector besides cannons and came out of the robo fac.
You didn't straight up die if your enemy rushed cloaked units in BW, wraith =/= banshee. Cannons were adequate in that game for a while.
On September 21 2011 00:51 The_DarkAngelz wrote: Protoss lacks scouting and detection DOT
If protoss makes observer he will not be producing Colossus or immortals, he'll be weakier. Observers are so easily sniped that is a bullshit doing 4 observers just to see what tech he is dumping !
Can't anyone see this? Terran has so freely scout with scan plus detection....zerg has most mobile unit that is lings and overlords for spooting (that custs less then scan), but protoss has to expose his army to scout, or stop robo units for observers....this game is a big troll in protoss face !
Hallucinate a Phoenix next time? I don't think scouting is Protoss's biggest problem right now as a race, and its certainly not behind Terran of all races. There's a reason why pro Terrans almost never Scan, and its not because they don't need to, or want to, scout.
Even if toss uses hallucinate, he has to waste more gas in the upgrade, AND losing sentry mana with is the main key for not losing to other races.
On September 21 2011 04:09 meadbert wrote: I like the idea of hallucinated observers. Given that Fungal and EMP already detect for less energy than hallucination, this seems fair.
noone thought about that...hallucineted observer that detects?? that's imba !!
"Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly?
Absolutely they do. There are many times I would love to go straight to blink stalkers, or to DTs, or to stargate play, but the specter of the opponent throwing some cloaked units at me is enough to force me to go Robo. Honestly I think it's downright crazy that you are forced to go early robo just in order to have detection. Cannons are expensive as hell and you can't really realistically afford putting one or two in your mineral line and others around your buildings in case a DT or cloaked banshee shows up. And when something does catch you off guard, that's 200/100 + 25/75 to get detection, plus 65+40 in build time. 105 seconds is more than enough for anything cloaked to kill you or set you seriously behind.
Lair is a tech choice every Zerg must make eventually as a prereq to other tech, and scan is so damned useful that every single Terran always has it and generally never bothers with Ravens.
I'm a zerg and I support this message
Toss is truly forced to get a robo for observers, which limits their potential builds in the mid game.
The lack of Protoss early detection does seem rather unfair, maybe if like, Hallucinated Observers could detect or something that's be cool, wouldn't make any sense but it would be cool.
Zerg don't really suffer from a lack of detection till late game having to rely on Overseers which are super easy to kill off, but at least the lowering of their cost by 50 gas makes it more affordable to replace them when they get picked off.
Zerg just needs some improved form of early scouting and I'd be happy. Give Zergs better early scouting and Protoss some kind of more affordable early mobile detection.
That's actually a really interesting idea. Allowing Obs to be hallucinated, and detect for their duration.
What i like about it is that is it costs Protoss money and energy to get that out, and isn't as viable means of detection, as the actual obs. Though the trade off is that you can streamline you builds more, with out as much fear of cloaked units.
Though if someone were to commit heavily and carefully enough to cloaked units, they could still be a problem for someone who doesn't get the actual observers. Though that's just the Toss's fault for not scouting enough in that case.
I say all this as a Zerg player. I think its fair. I guess one stipulation i would put on it, would be that Hallucinated Obs shouldn't be cloaked. Though that might just be my bias. Kinda like how changelings can't be stimmed, or have ling speed.
i hate that they at least didnt lower the price of pre-igniter i mean 150/150 mins/gas for 5 damage to just light units....it should be a 100/50 upgrade or something for that. Not to mention if Mech wasn't playable before vs protoss it definitely isn't now because zealots will now live forever as they charge into your tanks killing everything.
Yeah sure mech was never used competitively but now even master league and lower will get completely stomped going mech.
mostly all seem like good, well-thought-out changes. im interested to see how the players take it from here.
the no massive units nerf to NP was insanity and almost functionally equivalent to removing it from the game altogether, so i'm happy to see this adjusted. however, it seems like blizzard is still (ever so slowly) attempting to nudge the mothership towards viability. if this is true, then the mothership really should not be NP-able. it's a no brainer to NP it.
On September 21 2011 05:57 Raiznhell wrote: i hate that they at least didnt lower the price of pre-igniter i mean 150/150 mins/gas for 5 damage to just light units....it should be a 100/50 upgrade or something for that. Not to mention if Mech wasn't playable before vs protoss it definitely isn't now because zealots will now live forever as they charge into your tanks killing everything.
Yeah sure mech was never used competitively but now even master league and lower will get completely stomped going mech.
Maybe you should watch the only game Byun took off Oz last night, or any of Goody's games before saying mech isn't viable now. There are many abilities in the game that cost more than 150/150 and do less for you than blue flames does. Just be happy that you still have it, unlike something like void ray speed or amulet.
Disclaimer: If this has already been mentioned, sorry. I didn't see it in the OP so I assumed it wasn't.
While reading through the 1.4 patch notes on the launcher while installing it I noticed "The range for structures hitting other structures is now consistent with non-structure units." I immediately thought of spine crawlers vs. bunkers and the weird diagonal thing you have to do, and got a friend to help me test it. I found that now, if you have exactly 6 squares between the spine crawler and the bunker, the spine can hit the bunker but the marines can't return fire. No more funny diagonal thing should be necessary. This is a nice little buff against 2raxes in addition to the +5sec on rax
On September 21 2011 05:57 Raiznhell wrote: i hate that they at least didnt lower the price of pre-igniter i mean 150/150 mins/gas for 5 damage to just light units....it should be a 100/50 upgrade or something for that. Not to mention if Mech wasn't playable before vs protoss it definitely isn't now because zealots will now live forever as they charge into your tanks killing everything.
Yeah sure mech was never used competitively but now even master league and lower will get completely stomped going mech.
Maybe you should watch the only game Byun took off Oz last night, or any of Goody's games before saying mech isn't viable now. There are many abilities in the game that cost more than 150/150 and do less for you than blue flames does. Just be happy that you still have it, unlike something like void ray speed or amulet.
Pretty sure that was pre-nerf and then also pretty sure thats a pretty bad example of mech working with 3 tanks ont he low ground happening to win the game cuz the protoss decided to not deal with it.
On September 21 2011 06:01 Doc Daneeka wrote: mostly all seem like good, well-thought-out changes. im interested to see how the players take it from here.
the no massive units nerf to NP was insanity and almost functionally equivalent to removing it from the game altogether, so i'm happy to see this adjusted. however, it seems like blizzard is still (ever so slowly) attempting to nudge the mothership towards viability. if this is true, then the mothership really should not be NP-able. it's a no brainer to NP it.
NP it and then have an invisible infestor. I agree, that i kinda, well, stupid.
EDIT: "Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly?
I would love to not go robo tech within the first 10 minutes against Terran. I would prefer to safely go 6-gate 2-base chargelot/templar/upgrades and not need to find a timing to drop a robo solely for an obs.
I am not whining about toss detection. I love observers. But I am frustrated that if I want to focus on a twilight tech-path, I am forced to detour to robo-tech or I risk auto-losing to banshees (I know I can make cannons...if I am feeling risky, that's what I do.).
tl;dr Everyone gets a robo because we need it for observers. If we didn't, those of us going twilight tech might not go robo...at least not until later in the game.
Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (32)
35%
Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (21)
23%
Yes, it's the best patch ever (17)
19%
Hell no, this is the worst patch ever (11)
12%
I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (10)
11%
91 total votes
Your vote: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4
(Vote): Yes, it's the best patch ever (Vote): Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (Vote): I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (Vote): Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (Vote): Hell no, this is the worst patch ever
I don't know if anyone has seen this, I haven't seen a mention, but they changed the Neural Parasite nerf. It still can target massive units, but it now has a range of 7 instead of 9.
On September 21 2011 09:49 Lelden wrote: I don't know if anyone has seen this, I haven't seen a mention, but they changed the Neural Parasite nerf. It still can target massive units, but it now has a range of 7 instead of 9.
EDIT: "Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly?
I would love to not go robo tech within the first 10 minutes against Terran. I would prefer to safely go 6-gate 2-base chargelot/templar/upgrades and not need to find a timing to drop a robo solely for an obs.
I am not whining about toss detection. I love observers. But I am frustrated that if I want to focus on a twilight tech-path, I am forced to detour to robo-tech or I risk auto-losing to banshees (I know I can make cannons...if I am feeling risky, that's what I do.).
tl;dr Everyone gets a robo because we need it for observers. If we didn't, those of us going twilight tech might not go robo...at least not until later in the game.
Why do you need a robo in PvT. Im not saying you dont but im curious. T only have cloak banshees. If you are going heavy gate you already have a forge. Just plop down a cannon in each min line, and one i dunno somewhere to cover your army.
The Min line cannons double as great drop defense so they pay for themselves anyway. Get a robo when you take your 3rd maybe?
I may be wrong, its very possible. Im just not sure why you need a robo so soon. Maybe there is a timing between observer and halluc that can be exploited? Seems unlikely but a possibility i guess.
Also, ive assume you want a robo purely for observers here. Maybe im missing how much you need immortals with twighlight tech? Didnt think so but again, what the fuck do i know, i play T
On September 21 2011 09:54 drybones wrote: why wouldnt u want a robo warp prisms and immortal buff...
I agree you should want a robo. However, people seem to be saying they NEED one. Noone has yet to tell me why apart from, "We need observers", which i posted above asking why this is true.
What about ghosts the unit that counters 2 races. I also think marines need some kind of nerf like attack speed or some damage nerf. Also i don't know how neural will work now because it was already buffed with range due to being unusable that close :/ It's like they're playing ring around the rosie with changes and i don't like it.
On September 21 2011 09:54 drybones wrote: why wouldnt u want a robo warp prisms and immortal buff...
I agree you should want a robo. However, people seem to be saying they NEED one. Noone has yet to tell me why apart from, "We need observers", which i posted above asking why this is true.
If you get no robo you are basically unable to pressure the terran if they have cloak banshees and you also basically have no way of telling what they are doing unless you went phoenix.
i really like the new immortal range, it helps so much!!! just played a game and with half decent micro i had like 20 kills on 2 immortals and 10 on a third immortal vs a terran player until half way through the game i gave the immortals an accideental move command haha into there army alone but still can't wait to see what the pros can do with them
On September 21 2011 09:54 drybones wrote: why wouldnt u want a robo warp prisms and immortal buff...
I agree you should want a robo. However, people seem to be saying they NEED one. Noone has yet to tell me why apart from, "We need observers", which i posted above asking why this is true.
If you get no robo you are basically unable to pressure the terran if they have cloak banshees and you also basically have no way of telling what they are doing unless you went phoenix.
"Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly?
Absolutely they do. There are many times I would love to go straight to blink stalkers, or to DTs, or to stargate play, but the specter of the opponent throwing some cloaked units at me is enough to force me to go Robo. Honestly I think it's downright crazy that you are forced to go early robo just in order to have detection. Cannons are expensive as hell and you can't really realistically afford putting one or two in your mineral line and others around your buildings in case a DT or cloaked banshee shows up. And when something does catch you off guard, that's 200/100 + 25/75 to get detection, plus 65+40 in build time. 105 seconds is more than enough for anything cloaked to kill you or set you seriously behind.
Lair is a tech choice every Zerg must make eventually as a prereq to other tech, and scan is so damned useful that every single Terran always has it and generally never bothers with Ravens.
I'm a zerg and I support this message
Toss is truly forced to get a robo for observers, which limits their potential builds in the mid game.
Why do you need a robo in PvT. Im not saying you dont but im curious. T only have cloak banshees. If you are going heavy gate you already have a forge. Just plop down a cannon in each min line, and one i dunno somewhere to cover your army.
It takes three cannons to protect a mineral line from banshees. Four if you don't want to put them in the way of mining probes and slow down your income. Just placing one or two lets him snipe probes off at the end or deny the gas.
Overall good changes except for the baneling drop nerf.... i like the reduce cost on overseer.... :D while i would like to c a +1 range for ht feedback the next patch.... it would make tvp so much btr to watch as i feel ghost r currently too strong....
yeah, just like expected, Im now playing against Thor/Hellion all the time from terrans... "Hey, I didn't kill you when you had >5 thors and still don't have Broodlords, because apparently it is minute 15.... gg" Tried to neural... Infestors got stuck behind roaches and when they finally NPed he just killed them...
On September 21 2011 16:08 Big J wrote: yeah, just like expected, Im now playing against Thor/Hellion all the time from terrans... "Hey, I didn't kill you when you had >5 thors and still don't have Broodlords, because apparently it is minute 15.... gg" Tried to neural... Infestors got stuck behind roaches and when they finally NPed he just killed them...
On September 21 2011 16:08 Big J wrote: yeah, just like expected, Im now playing against Thor/Hellion all the time from terrans... "Hey, I didn't kill you when you had >5 thors and still don't have Broodlords, because apparently it is minute 15.... gg" Tried to neural... Infestors got stuck behind roaches and when they finally NPed he just killed them...
You admit that you micro'd poorly and are still whining? Ok...how about you position your units better next time or do some burrow micro to get into position? Thor/helion is quite easy to hard-counter even without infestors, which is why you see most pro terrans go marine/tank.
On September 21 2011 16:08 Big J wrote: yeah, just like expected, Im now playing against Thor/Hellion all the time from terrans... "Hey, I didn't kill you when you had >5 thors and still don't have Broodlords, because apparently it is minute 15.... gg" Tried to neural... Infestors got stuck behind roaches and when they finally NPed he just killed them...
You admit that you micro'd poorly and are still whining? Ok...how about you position your units better next time or do some burrow micro to get into position? Thor/helion is quite easy to hard-counter even without infestors, which is why you see most pro terrans go marine/tank.
you can't burrow micro defensivly vs terran, because he scans anyway... and yeah, ofc they mixed in like 2 or 3 tanks... better positioning is only viable if you go defensively, which you can't against an opponent who sits on his ass and masses up stuff. That's where you NEED broodlords, but if he pushes you NEED roaches, so you're coinflipping if he moves out or not (which isn't really a coinflip for him, because he can keep scouting forever with hellions, if it is wise to attack or not)
I agree that those Mech styles are still pretty bad at all, but you really don't need a brain to play Mech TvZ now, because you either push at a random timing and win if he didn't go mass roach, or you push at 200 supply and win if he did. It means Zerg has to react to Terrans composition, because they don't have anything universal, while for Terran there are still 3 completly universal compositions and he doesn't have to care a lot about anything zerg does until 20mins are over. It's just bullshit how this patch affects a formerly balanced (if not even slightly terran favored) matchup.
btw, it's not poor micro if 7range Thor attack roaches, and you try to close distance to them, but you can't because there are still hellions in the way, which means for the infestors there are still roaches and hellions in the way, adding up to around 2-3 range loss, which means you don't fight 7range thor with 7range neural, because unless you're stupid and send your infestors in heads up, you can't get in range easily...
On September 21 2011 09:47 Conquerer67 wrote: The OP should put this into the OP.
Poll: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4
Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (32)
35%
Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (21)
23%
Yes, it's the best patch ever (17)
19%
Hell no, this is the worst patch ever (11)
12%
I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (10)
11%
91 total votes
Your vote: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4
(Vote): Yes, it's the best patch ever (Vote): Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (Vote): I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (Vote): Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (Vote): Hell no, this is the worst patch ever
An answer similar to "ok patch, but doesn't adress the most problematic issues" is missing for me.
On September 21 2011 09:47 Conquerer67 wrote: The OP should put this into the OP.
Poll: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4
Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (32)
35%
Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (21)
23%
Yes, it's the best patch ever (17)
19%
Hell no, this is the worst patch ever (11)
12%
I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (10)
11%
91 total votes
Your vote: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4
(Vote): Yes, it's the best patch ever (Vote): Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (Vote): I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (Vote): Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (Vote): Hell no, this is the worst patch ever
An answer similar to "ok patch, but doesn't adress the most problematic issues" is missing for me.
jup, or something like: "it does adress the right problems in the wrong ways/not enough..."
On September 21 2011 09:47 Conquerer67 wrote: The OP should put this into the OP.
Poll: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4
Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (32)
35%
Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (21)
23%
Yes, it's the best patch ever (17)
19%
Hell no, this is the worst patch ever (11)
12%
I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (10)
11%
91 total votes
Your vote: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4
(Vote): Yes, it's the best patch ever (Vote): Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (Vote): I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (Vote): Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (Vote): Hell no, this is the worst patch ever
An answer similar to "ok patch, but doesn't adress the most problematic issues" is missing for me.
jup, or something like: "it does adress the right problems in the wrong ways/not enough..."
for me (protoss) the biggest problems are: PvT: ghosts crippling toss left and right; since MMM is > toss gateway units (acknowledged fact) it makes little sense that the ghost has to be the better unit....even on paper (snipe/EMP-range > feedback/storm-range; movement speed; just to name a few).
PvZ: more fundamental issues that I'm not even sure how to adress; basicly it's FFE vs fast third and somehow zerg is always ahead with 20-40 supply in midgame and has complete mapcontrol....maybe revert the zealot-buildtime-nerf to bring back the theoretical threat of double gate zealot pressure? like terrans have double rax marines? dunno; infestor change is very nice and doesn't overdo it "in the other direction" (meaning an overnerf after an overbuff), but the cheesy ling/infestor-stuff aside, the underlying very problematic structure of the matchup overall remains untouched; probably Blizz just doesn't want to do anything too severe before HotS
On September 21 2011 09:47 Conquerer67 wrote: The OP should put this into the OP.
Poll: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4
Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (32)
35%
Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (21)
23%
Yes, it's the best patch ever (17)
19%
Hell no, this is the worst patch ever (11)
12%
I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (10)
11%
91 total votes
Your vote: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4
(Vote): Yes, it's the best patch ever (Vote): Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (Vote): I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (Vote): Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (Vote): Hell no, this is the worst patch ever
An answer similar to "ok patch, but doesn't adress the most problematic issues" is missing for me.
jup, or something like: "it does adress the right problems in the wrong ways/not enough..."
for me (protoss) the biggest problems are: PvT: ghosts crippling toss left and right; since MMM is > toss gateway units (acknowledged fact) it makes little sense that the ghost has to be the better unit....even on paper (snipe/EMP-range > feedback/storm-range; movement speed; just to name a few).
PvZ: more fundamental issues that I'm not even sure how to adress; basicly it's FFE vs fast third and somehow zerg is always ahead with 20-40 supply in midgame and has complete mapcontrol....maybe revert the zealot-buildtime-nerf to bring back the theoretical threat of double gate zealot pressure? like terrans have double rax marines? dunno; infestor change is very nice and doesn't overdo it "in the other direction" (meaning an overnerf after an overbuff), but the cheesy ling/infestor-stuff aside, the underlying very problematic structure of the matchup overall remains untouched; probably Blizz just doesn't want to do anything too severe before HotS
yeah, I agree... (me zerg) Something about the ghost is too strong in TvP imo (I would say the snipe/EMP battle vs feedback is too much in the terran favor right now) PvZ... I don't know, I just don't like the whole flow of the matchup. In my eyes Protoss has troubles when it comes to macro games, mostly because Protoss has to much coinflip tech. Air play: you get instantly ahead/win or you abbandon it in the long run Colossi: you build a deathball and win in 1battle, or you have lost DT: you get instantly ahead/win or you abbandon it in the long run
I think airplay is the key problem here with Zerg having a ground to ground superiority unit like the roach (in terms of costefficientness). Protoss needs someway to combat Zerg without getting crippled... Maybe it's the metagame, but I think Protoss could need a buff in terms of mobile play, without making rushes or turteling stronger... Also I simply don't like the Colossus' design. It's straight up too strong in certain situations and straight up to hard to play in the longrun.
Why do you need a robo in PvT. Im not saying you dont but im curious. T only have cloak banshees. If you are going heavy gate you already have a forge. Just plop down a cannon in each min line, and one i dunno somewhere to cover your army.
It takes three cannons to protect a mineral line from banshees. Four if you don't want to put them in the way of mining probes and slow down your income. Just placing one or two lets him snipe probes off at the end or deny the gas.
Why does it? The cannon doesnt need to be able to shoot the banshee just to detect it. You dont want to fight stalkers with banshees. Its just not cost effective at all, especially if you have researched cloak.
Can you not scout cloak really easily with a halluc? And if so plop down a robo? Seems like you could, but who seriously opens cloak against P apart from an all in?
Notice thses are all questions lol. If you a master+ Protoss and say you get raped by cloak if you dont open robo, then, fair enough. It just seems like you could easily scout it in time.
Halluc takes 80 seconds to research, so say very tops 2 min to scout from when you start research. You can get an observer out in 90 seconds from no robo.
Your early scout should also give you information if it was gas first. Early 2nd gas etc. If they dont show you that banshees will be delayed.
My overall concern in this patch, is that it's clearly intended to help Protoss, but I think it may fall very short of doing so because it doesn't address what's really wrong.
But then later on, when they're planning the Next patch...it will seem like they just nerfed Terran into the ground, but they really only nerfed TvT and TvZ.
And ZvP will seem like Infestors were totally fixed, but still have the FG and IT issues...really by nerfing NP, you're simply 'Forcing' Colossus again as the path to take.
So Im concerned that they won't be willing to patch and nerf the matches again because they Think they fixed it this time around and it would look bad to do it again.
On September 21 2011 16:08 Big J wrote: yeah, just like expected, Im now playing against Thor/Hellion all the time from terrans... "Hey, I didn't kill you when you had >5 thors and still don't have Broodlords, because apparently it is minute 15.... gg" Tried to neural... Infestors got stuck behind roaches and when they finally NPed he just killed them...
You admit that you micro'd poorly and are still whining? Ok...how about you position your units better next time or do some burrow micro to get into position? Thor/helion is quite easy to hard-counter even without infestors, which is why you see most pro terrans go marine/tank.
you can't burrow micro defensivly vs terran, because he scans anyway... and yeah, ofc they mixed in like 2 or 3 tanks... better positioning is only viable if you go defensively, which you can't against an opponent who sits on his ass and masses up stuff. That's where you NEED broodlords, but if he pushes you NEED roaches, so you're coinflipping if he moves out or not (which isn't really a coinflip for him, because he can keep scouting forever with hellions, if it is wise to attack or not)
Ok..I think you're assuming I mean to burrow your entire army or something. "I can't do x because hes able to do y" is a really poor way to think about the game. You see zerg's sneak with single infestors to lob an infested terran at a siege tank to cause friendly fire (that is even more risky than what I'm suggesting).
One burrowed infestor on either side of the terran army (before the engagement) split off from your main army is not a difficult tactic to execute. Send in your army when terran commits on your creep, pop up the two infestors from either side and neural parasite the closest thor's to them, then select your roaches and kite the thors while hitting the helions, burrow to heal up.....there are so many ways to micro against a heavy thor army, you basically shouldn't be doing anything but microing when a terran commits..because the game is basically over if you crush that army (unless you let him freely expand throughout the game).
what you guys think about tvt, any diffrences ? i played 2 tvt today (master lvl) and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines. only vs hellions. in late game it also isnt needed that much (i couldnt find 150//150 to get it) i played 2x vs fast blue flame openings and i was able to defend easily with regular hellion + faster tank (due to 150//150 save) also defending vs (blue flame??) hellion drops was much more easier. so maybe we gonna see more bio play now. (however vs bio blue flame didnt change at all - still 3 shot vs shielded marine)
On September 21 2011 20:53 NoDDiE wrote: what you guys think about tvt, any diffrences ? i played 2 tvt today (master lvl) and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines. only vs hellions. in late game it also isnt needed that much (i couldnt find 150//150 to get it) i played 2x vs fast blue flame openings and i was able to defend easily with regular hellion + faster tank (due to 150//150 save) also defending vs (blue flame??) hellion drops was much more easier. so maybe we gonna see more bio play now. (however vs bio blue flame didnt change at all - still 3 shot vs shielded marine)
It takes 3 shots to kill uncombat-shielded marines now instead of 2 from before, which will significantly affect a lot of TvT openers where most of the volatility in one base vs one base is occuring.
I think we should stay calm for a few days or even weeks because it clearly needs time to see whether its a good patch or not, but i have a question for pvp: Is warping up the ramp behind a ff only hindered or completely impossible now, if the ff is placed correctly?
Protoss gets buffed Terran gets hit with the nerf bat... in a big way
Yet Protoss are still complaining.... Just let Collossi attack air and that will balance out the whole game for them.
There is seriously sooo much complaining, why don't you all just find other ways of winning then coming on here complaining? Terran got nerfed and now they wil just find another way around it, when they do everyone will have a cry again and call for another Terran nerf. I can't believe people are now asking for a ghost nerf... you really have to be kidding me.
I am a hater of the hellion nerf as I liked the "unpredictability" of those units, and the increase of rax build time... Oh please, soon terran will only just be able to turtle on 2 base and not even move at all.
On September 21 2011 20:53 NoDDiE wrote: what you guys think about tvt, any diffrences ? i played 2 tvt today (master lvl) and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines. only vs hellions. in late game it also isnt needed that much (i couldnt find 150//150 to get it) i played 2x vs fast blue flame openings and i was able to defend easily with regular hellion + faster tank (due to 150//150 save) also defending vs (blue flame??) hellion drops was much more easier. so maybe we gonna see more bio play now. (however vs bio blue flame didnt change at all - still 3 shot vs shielded marine)
It takes 3 shots to kill uncombat-shielded marines now instead of 2 from before, which will significantly affect a lot of TvT openers where most of the volatility in one base vs one base is occuring.
i wrote that in part "and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines" :D
On September 21 2011 20:53 NoDDiE wrote: what you guys think about tvt, any diffrences ? i played 2 tvt today (master lvl) and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines. only vs hellions. in late game it also isnt needed that much (i couldnt find 150//150 to get it) i played 2x vs fast blue flame openings and i was able to defend easily with regular hellion + faster tank (due to 150//150 save) also defending vs (blue flame??) hellion drops was much more easier. so maybe we gonna see more bio play now. (however vs bio blue flame didnt change at all - still 3 shot vs shielded marine)
It takes 3 shots to kill uncombat-shielded marines now instead of 2 from before, which will significantly affect a lot of TvT openers where most of the volatility in one base vs one base is occuring.
i wrote that in part "and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines" :D
that's what the patch is about... It should make runnbys less game ending and should make bio more viable in TvT again...
On September 21 2011 20:44 SilverforceX wrote: Marines > gateway units and immortals.
+1 range is going to make SOO much difference.. not.
trolol? Marines vs chargelots and blink stalkers with GS im pretty sure get ass raped.
EDIT: and I assume you dont count HT as gateway? Even though.....
Stim, micro. Rape zealots and especially stalkers.
Yup your right. Definitely. Tbh im not sure why anyone actually makes anything but marines until like the 12 min mark.
FF GS and charge definitly dont do well against pure marines. Storms doesnt do much either. I think marines might also hard counter collossi.
Did your OP actually have a point or were you just whining for the sake of whining. The point is immortals can now shoot from behind stalkers without the AI being stupid.
Immo still cannot shoot from behind stalkers. They both will have 6 range. A stalker is a big unit. They are slow so they will be behind your army and can't shoot over stalkers. The same problem of dancing immortal will still exist.
They need 7 range to shoot beyond stalkers.
Btw, siege tanks have 7 range in normal mode. Marauders have 6, marines have 5. Aww.. it all works out for terran, again.
Banshee and vikings retain their range advantage, but VR had to be nerfed.. why?
Another patch, no nerf to ghost, emp, reactor upgrade.. yet Templars had amulet removed. Seriously, this patch won't change the terran dominance. We shall see in GSL october.
On September 21 2011 22:26 SilverforceX wrote: Immo still cannot shoot from behind stalkers. They both will have 6 range. A stalker is a big unit. They are slow so they will be behind your army and can't shoot over stalkers. The same problem of dancing immortal will still exist.
They need 7 range to shoot beyond stalkers.
Btw, siege tanks have 7 range in normal mode. Marauders have 6, marines have 5. Aww.. it all works out for terran, again.
Banshee and vikings retain their range advantage, but VR had to be nerfed.. why?
Another patch, no nerf to ghost, emp, reactor upgrade.. yet Templars had amulet removed. Seriously, this patch won't change the terran dominance. We shall see in GSL october.
Siege tanks unsieged are the fucking awful.
If only stalkers could move really quickly from one location to another. And zealots could run really fast and have an ai which auto surrounds. Or there was a spell which could cut a bio ball in half. Well since there isnt, looks like P kinda sucks. Oh wait....
Look, if you are just going to whine and dont have any actual input. Why post?
I could sit here and tell you why 3 gate proxy SG is imba. But i wont. Even though its win rate is as good as 1-1-1. Among other things. This isnt the thread for it.
The point is immortals can now shoot from behind stalkers without the AI being stupid.
you are wrong; immortals have the same range now; they have to get in line with stalkers and can't shoot behind stalkers
This is what I call a hard counter
To the OP: I really hope Immos can hold that niche of our defensive unit against terrans. The one unit we can build and hold all that dumb ass bio stim timings/1-1-1s without having to rush to collosi. But Theoretically speaking it shouldn't do this. The range is nice but its still slow, doesn't do great against marines and does no splash aoe damage.
On September 13 2011 10:49 mage36 wrote: why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses.
Can we make babies?
Too many people who have only played one race giving absurdly biased opinions.
There was a huge mothership buff too. a HUUGE one. However people will complain as they still kinda suck.
If you buff something from unusable to really bad, its still not good. HSM sucks. It kinda always will without a huge overhaul. You will only really see it in 15 hour TvT games ala boxer.
Thanks for the insightful input. It was more from a fortune cookie then starcraft related though
Do you know my lucky numbers? XD
EDIT: AAAhhh i quoted the wrong guy. I cba to change it but im sure people know who i meant to quote
I don't entirely get the whole NP issue to begin with. There are hardly any good targets that aren't massive and the infestor is so vulnerable while casting it Ive never had a real problem sniping them when they try something cute. I mean tanks and colossi just stomp on them. Plus you've got blink and HT/Ghost abilities that can hose infestors, too. I've been like, perfectly cliff ambushed by NP onto thors and tanks and still got vision and killed them with my bio before i was totally wiped, then went on to beat them up.
If NP really needed a nerf I'd rather see it's range reduced or something along those lines.
Yup your right. Definitely. Tbh im not sure why anyone actually makes anything but marines until like the 12 min mark.
Because they add some marauders and medivacs to supplement the insane dps/mineral and dps/supply numbers of the stimmed marine and kite you to death. There is a reason protoss needs AoE in the midgame.
Marines are not better than gateway units per se, but to bring in T2 or even T3 tech was not the point he was talking about.
About immortals, you still can't a-move a ball of stalkers+immortals, because immortals are slower and will likely still get stuck behind the stalkers. But now you can control the ball itself as if it were only stalkers.
Didn't play in the PTR, so this has been my first time playing with the new warp prisms and OH MY GOD THEY'RE SO MUCH BETTER. You can immortal drop in PvP, pick off a stalker and get out before losing health on your prism. You can actually pick up dropped units from near a queen now, get away, recharge your shields, and go again. As far as harassing goes without taking hull damage, their twice as good.
I can't believe the ignorance of people who think immortal range won't matter because they're now in line with stalkers. How about not a-moving everything and scooting a bit instead ._.
On September 21 2011 23:37 MeLlamoSatan wrote: For the people who complain about the 6 immo range and 6 stalker range:
Do you guys just a-click? How about we scoot and shoot a little as we move in? You know, that is way more effective...
That is exactly what we needed to do before and we need to do the same after the patch. That's why a lot of people is saying that the buff will change nothing.
But the only thing you hear from no-protoss is "OMG PROTOSS GOT BUFF IMBA IMMORTALS".
On September 21 2011 23:57 EmilA wrote: I can't believe the ignorance of people who think immortal range won't matter because they're now in line with stalkers. How about not a-moving everything and scooting a bit instead ._.
Tell me about it. Immortals never have been an "a-move" type of unit. You always want to focus fire armored unit with your Immortals, and the range buff will have a significant effect on its ability to do so. Look at the Roach range buff and its effect on Roach usability. Now I realize that's not the best comparison due to Roach being more of a core unit and the Immortal more of a support unit, but it's a pretty big buff.
I think the range buff is also going to make people give another hard look at a heavier Immortal-based midgame to secure an earlier 3rd. Contrary to popular opinion a Chargelot/Immortal composition is quite beefy vs both Roach and MMM compositions in the midgame before armies get too large in the lategame.
On September 21 2011 23:57 EmilA wrote: I can't believe the ignorance of people who think immortal range won't matter because they're now in line with stalkers. How about not a-moving everything and scooting a bit instead ._.
Tell me about it. Immortals never have been an "a-move" type of unit. You always want to focus fire armored unit with your Immortals, and the range buff will have a significant effect on its ability to do so. Look at the Roach range buff and its effect on Roach usability. Now I realize that's not the best comparison due to Roach being more of a core unit and the Immortal more of a support unit, but it's a pretty big buff.
well, blizzard always wanted the immortal to be this kind of core unit and there is a comment from them, where they said that they don't like how immortals didn't overtake the Dragoons role and are rather only built due to their AntiArmorRole instead of their beefiness in the frontline. And to be honest, I think Protoss still haven't experimented enough with Immortalstyles due to Colossi being SO popular and easy to play/time.
I am amazed at how much Protoss is still complaining.... it's a joke really. Blizzard, just leave the game as it is now and let the metagame develop. There will always be whingers and sooks.
Remember HotS is still yet to be released, wait tilll all the rage imba threads then......
On September 21 2011 23:57 EmilA wrote: I can't believe the ignorance of people who think immortal range won't matter because they're now in line with stalkers. How about not a-moving everything and scooting a bit instead ._.
Tell me about it. Immortals never have been an "a-move" type of unit. You always want to focus fire armored unit with your Immortals, and the range buff will have a significant effect on its ability to do so. Look at the Roach range buff and its effect on Roach usability. Now I realize that's not the best comparison due to Roach being more of a core unit and the Immortal more of a support unit, but it's a pretty big buff.
well, blizzard always wanted the immortal to be this kind of core unit and there is a comment from them, where they said that they don't like how immortals didn't overtake the Dragoons role and are rather only built due to their AntiArmorRole instead of their beefiness in the frontline. And to be honest, I think Protoss still haven't experimented enough with Immortalstyles due to Colossi being SO popular and easy to play/time.
You know I've heard people refer to some quote from Blizzard about Immortals a few times but I've never seen it. Can you link it? I don't really see how you can make the Immortal a core unit when it comes from a tech structure and has a fairly significant training time. Protoss seems very clearly defined in that gateway units = core and tech structure units = support.
On September 21 2011 23:57 EmilA wrote: I can't believe the ignorance of people who think immortal range won't matter because they're now in line with stalkers. How about not a-moving everything and scooting a bit instead ._.
Tell me about it. Immortals never have been an "a-move" type of unit. You always want to focus fire armored unit with your Immortals, and the range buff will have a significant effect on its ability to do so. Look at the Roach range buff and its effect on Roach usability. Now I realize that's not the best comparison due to Roach being more of a core unit and the Immortal more of a support unit, but it's a pretty big buff.
well, blizzard always wanted the immortal to be this kind of core unit and there is a comment from them, where they said that they don't like how immortals didn't overtake the Dragoons role and are rather only built due to their AntiArmorRole instead of their beefiness in the frontline. And to be honest, I think Protoss still haven't experimented enough with Immortalstyles due to Colossi being SO popular and easy to play/time.
You know I've heard people refer to some quote from Blizzard about Immortals a few times but I've never seen it. Can you link it? I don't really see how you can make the Immortal a core unit when it comes from a tech structure and has a fairly significant training time. Protoss seems very clearly defined in that gateway units = core and tech structure units = support.
well, Immortals used to be spawned from the Gateway which made more sense to me. But, then again to have Colossus as the only attacking unit you could build from a Robo seems a bit silly.
Wow i cant understand how can protoss players still complain about changes in the patch not being enough. Infestor nerf + immortal range buff totally shuts down infestor+roach play (which was a very powerful combo) and forces zerg to make corruptors again vs collosi. And yes immortal range is a significant buff if you dont just A move your army.
On September 22 2011 01:07 syriuszonito wrote: Infestor nerf + immortal range buff totally shuts down infestor+roach play (which was a very powerful combo) and forces zerg to make corruptors again vs collosi.
yeah, totally; I guess we will never see infestors ever again
On September 21 2011 23:57 EmilA wrote: I can't believe the ignorance of people who think immortal range won't matter because they're now in line with stalkers. How about not a-moving everything and scooting a bit instead ._.
Tell me about it. Immortals never have been an "a-move" type of unit. You always want to focus fire armored unit with your Immortals, and the range buff will have a significant effect on its ability to do so. Look at the Roach range buff and its effect on Roach usability. Now I realize that's not the best comparison due to Roach being more of a core unit and the Immortal more of a support unit, but it's a pretty big buff.
well, blizzard always wanted the immortal to be this kind of core unit and there is a comment from them, where they said that they don't like how immortals didn't overtake the Dragoons role and are rather only built due to their AntiArmorRole instead of their beefiness in the frontline. And to be honest, I think Protoss still haven't experimented enough with Immortalstyles due to Colossi being SO popular and easy to play/time.
You know I've heard people refer to some quote from Blizzard about Immortals a few times but I've never seen it. Can you link it? I don't really see how you can make the Immortal a core unit when it comes from a tech structure and has a fairly significant training time. Protoss seems very clearly defined in that gateway units = core and tech structure units = support.
sry, can't find it again. But what Im refering to was basically a blizzard comment on Immortals not working out as core unit like they were intended, Overseers only being used as "glorified scouts" and thus there might be units that get replaced in HotS... It was a huge discussion in the general forum, but as said, I don't know the threads name again and can't find it right now :S
On September 22 2011 00:58 BeeNu wrote: well, Immortals used to be spawned from the Gateway which made more sense to me. But, then again to have Colossus as the only attacking unit you could build from a Robo seems a bit silly.
I think that they changed that, because immortals were way to powerful in warpgate rushes... just imagine something like a zealot/immortal 3-4gate attack :D
On September 22 2011 01:07 syriuszonito wrote: Infestor nerf + immortal range buff totally shuts down infestor+roach play (which was a very powerful combo) and forces zerg to make corruptors again vs collosi.
yeah, totally; I guess we will never see infestors ever again
sigh
Good sir i gently ask you to read my comment once again so you realise that it was not my intention to claim that infestors are gonna be useless now.
"Improved Larva placement when the bottom edge of a hatchery is on a cliff edge to prevent Larva from getting killed."
Really happy about this change. Many times when simcity at nat on maps like Tal'darim 6 or Shattered Temple 6 the larva from the inject would eject from the bottom of the hatch and die. I always got furious watching my larva eject from the hatch and immediately explode afterwards, effectively preventing/losing those larva permanently. Very nice change and fix there.
On September 24 2011 06:52 ondik wrote: hey, did the ramp vision also change forcefielding so that you can't forcefield mid/top of ramp if you don't have vision?
from what i could tell trying it out it does force the sentry to go up the ramp some until it can forcefield. dunno a situation where this is too big of a problem though. It really just helps on the other end more meaning you can forcefield the bottom and units cant warp, blink, or see up
On September 24 2011 06:52 ondik wrote: hey, did the ramp vision also change forcefielding so that you can't forcefield mid/top of ramp if you don't have vision?
from what i could tell trying it out it does force the sentry to go up the ramp some until it can forcefield. dunno a situation where this is too big of a problem though. It really just helps on the other end more meaning you can forcefield the bottom and units cant warp, blink, or see up
i was pushing to terran's natural and needed to cut retreating units in half..but the sentry wouldn't FF, it had to go closer to ramp and then was killed from high ground. Kinda annoying.
On September 23 2011 16:24 GhoSt[shield] wrote: "Improved Larva placement when the bottom edge of a hatchery is on a cliff edge to prevent Larva from getting killed."
Really happy about this change. Many times when simcity at nat on maps like Tal'darim 6 or Shattered Temple 6 the larva from the inject would eject from the bottom of the hatch and die. I always got furious watching my larva eject from the hatch and immediately explode afterwards, effectively preventing/losing those larva permanently. Very nice change and fix there.
What about trying to place a hatch over top of a destroyed one? those damn larva are always in the way. And the fact that larva is always south of your hatch, makes drone run time always a problem. Kinda bs how cc/nexus magically pops scv/probe in the closest distance to mineral patch. Only good hatch placement is on mineral fields on the south part of the map for the stated reasons above. (scs/probes dont spawn from south part of cc/nexus do they? now that i think about it)
On September 24 2011 07:51 Saltydizzle wrote:And the fact that larva is always south of your hatch, makes drone run time always a problem. Kinda bs how cc/nexus magically pops scv/probe in the closest distance to mineral patch. Only good hatch placement is on mineral fields on the south part of the map for the stated reasons above. (scs/probes dont spawn from south part of cc/nexus do they? now that i think about it)
On September 22 2011 02:10 zhengsta wrote: are we still suppose to wait for 16 oc or still do 15 oc?
Wondering this myself. Glanced through the thread but couldn't find anything. Might've just missed it.
I've seen pros do both 15 and 16 so I'm not sure which is better. Does anyone have any maths showing? I'm thinking 15 because if you go 16 you have to wait 12 extra seconds for that first mule.
From my own testing, none is optimal now. You either have to place rax on 11 and then wait for minerals, or you place it on 12 and you have to wait for scv to finish building beffore you can transform to OC.
Or you just place it on 12 and dont make the last scv, which is the worst scenario i think...
If someone has the answer to this i'd appreciate it myself aswell. It seems like all the timings are way off now.
On September 24 2011 07:31 ondik wrote: i was pushing to terran's natural and needed to cut retreating units in half..but the sentry wouldn't FF, it had to go closer to ramp and then was killed from high ground. Kinda annoying.
That makes me so happy you have no idea. FF'ing ramps when pushing someone's natural was always such a ridiculous OP nonsense tactic.
On September 24 2011 07:31 ondik wrote: i was pushing to terran's natural and needed to cut retreating units in half..but the sentry wouldn't FF, it had to go closer to ramp and then was killed from high ground. Kinda annoying.
That makes me so happy you have no idea. FF'ing ramps when pushing someone's natural was always such a ridiculous OP nonsense tactic.
Don't get too happy, you can still block the ramp, you just have to do so at the lowest center point of the ramp. So cutting groups in half is slightly more difficult, but you can still lock someone in their base. It's just a bit harder since you have less time to react since you don't see units until they are near the bottom of the ramp.
On September 24 2011 07:51 Saltydizzle wrote: And the fact that larva is always south of your hatch, makes drone run time always a problem. Kinda bs how cc/nexus magically pops scv/probe in the closest distance to mineral patch. Only good hatch placement is on mineral fields on the south part of the map for the stated reasons above. (scs/probes dont spawn from south part of cc/nexus do they? now that i think about it)
I hate this since warcraft 2. On an high but equal level of play, you would be sure to lose at certain spawn locations. Many years weren't enough to make Blizzard realize what's obvious at the first second of any game... Larvae should always pop on the side of the closest mineral patch (because otherwise, who the hell cares which side they are ? And i don't think anybody clicks on them anyway...)
Oh we were talking about the patch ? Well Protoss started to lose some games so they buffed them, and the contrary for zerg. They're just toying with terrans as these have always been doing well. Yes I'm zerg biased, I did my best to get used to infestors and especially NP, while avoiding overseers... Now I have to adapt myself again, while they're making P's micro and harass easier -_- I'm still waiting for the career buff. You saw it here
EPT
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