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xTrim
472 Posts
It was already hard.... How would you deal now that bunker is (yet again) delayed?? OH AND BY THE WAY, woker harass is gonna last a little longer... -.- See, the whole thing about nerfing terran openers is stupid... Now everything is delayed... i can even see cannon rushes being the norm vs terran... bah master terran here | ||
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
The ramp change is so that Blink stalkers can't blink up a ramp, but even more importantly, warpins cannot happen high up on a ramp above a FF. This makes 4 gate much weaker and pushes towards Robo play. Blink is a change for two things. It won't really change PvZ as Blink Stalker timing pushes are waiting for +2 far after blink is done, so the strongest timings will be left untouched. What it does do, however, is make FE's on Tal'darim and other ramped natural maps much safer to blink stalker openings (something used to great effect by Naniwa and MC in many of their PvT's). It also has a profound effect on PvP, where blink-stalker was a very viable opening. Combined with the immortal buff, Robo play looks like its going to be king in the PvP matchup. Blink timings won't be nearly as dangerous vP now. | ||
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:44 rmAmnesiac wrote: promising changes? by that you mean nerfing terran to an extent that it really is beyond unplayable at standard level of play just because it has the highest skill cap and korean terrans can dominate with 300 apm and impeccalbe micro? yea, that's really good for overall balance. gj blizzard. fucking ridiculous. Rofl what the hell? We get Khaydarin removed, and we're just sorta like "QQ, no more instant storm-warpins!" You get your friggin barracks delayed by FIVE FRIGGIN SECONDS, and you can't instantly decimate a whole worker line in 5 seconds (by the way, you can still drop MM which if undefended ALWAYS do damage to something.) where you still have a BARELY nerfed 1/1/1 (Immortal buff), and have no changes to ghost (how MC loses pretty much every non-cheese PvT he loses), and you say "oops terran not viable anymore GG". When's the last time 5 seconds would have made a significant difference? I can give you one ONE example of all the games I've seen. Jinro vs. Idra 6 pool game on Jungle Basin. That is ONE game. Yes, you get all your buildings pushed back approximately 15 seconds, but it is not "oh GG Terran unplayable". Terran were winning a ton before blueflame and before 1/1/1, and without 3 rax, there is no problem here. Also, even more important, remember that this is PTR, none of these changes are finalized yet, so stop with your Doom and gloom "terran unplayable" BS. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:43 xTrim wrote: bah... Proxy gateways vs t are now unstoppable... It was already hard.... How would you deal now that bunker is (yet again) delayed?? OH AND BY THE WAY, woker harass is gonna last a little longer... -.- See, the whole thing about nerfing terran openers is stupid... Now everything is delayed... i can even see cannon rushes being the norm vs terran... bah master terran here You wanna know the last time I've seen a T lose to a proxy gate? MC vs. Rain. 5 seconds wouldn't have made a crap of difference, Rain played it TERRIBLY, getting a maurauder with no Conc shell instead of like 5 more marines. Also, oh snap 5 extra seconds of scouting and zapping won't ruin your whole build order. I don't think nerfing terran opening this early is good neccessarily, BUT, unless another fix becomes apparent (this one does minimal to your lategame while maybe giving Protoss 1 extra warpin or zerg 5/6 more double zerglings), 1/1/1, double bunker (MVP v Nestea), 3 rax (MC v Noblesse), and 2 rax (MKP v Z) give Terran soo much flexibility and strength early game. You either get 5 seconds here or a marine nerf next week... Your choice. Also, throwing around your rank like that means nothing... That's no better than me going "I'm a diamond Protoss and I tell you little bronze scrubs (my brothers in this example), that Ravens are OP." Something most know isn't true, but how do they have any idea otherwise? You're statement of rank is nothing more than bullying and wielding "power". I'd like to see a well'reasoned response though, as I don't play Terran and might not understand everythign clearly | ||
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:53 ImmortalTofu wrote: Rofl what the hell? We get Khaydarin removed, and we're just sorta like "QQ, no more instant storm-warpins!" You get your friggin barracks delayed by FIVE FRIGGIN SECONDS, and you can't instantly decimate a whole worker line in 5 seconds (by the way, you can still drop MM which if undefended ALWAYS do damage to something.) where you still have a BARELY nerfed 1/1/1 (Immortal buff), and have no changes to ghost (how MC loses pretty much every non-cheese PvT he loses), and you say "oops terran not viable anymore GG". When's the last time 5 seconds would have made a significant difference? I can give you one ONE example of all the games I've seen. Jinro vs. Idra 6 pool game on Jungle Basin. That is ONE game. Yes, you get all your buildings pushed back approximately 15 seconds, but it is not "oh GG Terran unplayable". Terran were winning a ton before blueflame and before 1/1/1, and without 3 rax, there is no problem here. Also, even more important, remember that this is PTR, none of these changes are finalized yet, so stop with your Doom and gloom "terran unplayable" BS. learn to play random and get some actualy perspective on skill levels required to play this game at a standard masters level, where terran have been almost indefinitely underepresented for the past 8 months. the way to solve that is to nerf racks build time and overall terran play, buff ultras and neural parasite (where late game is already broken in zergs favour), nerf mech, and buff an laready strong protoss unit and another one which functions best under the 1 a deathball syndrom. yes that's the way to make a good and balanved game. unsurprisingly making a decent e-sport and a game nejoyable for the masses aren't totally mutuall exlcusive but retared patches like these aren't the way to go about it. | ||
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:58 xTrim wrote: 5 seconds makes a lot of difference... a lot indeed... especially if needed for a bunker defense against cheese Your barracks is now the same buildtime as our gateway, and you can fullwalloff with no cost to you. You now have 3 marines instead of two against a 6 pool if you wall, and you can repair your barracks/depots as they get hit. Against two gate, its even easier, zealots get little surface area, and you can still repair. Toss holds off 6P fine, why can't you guys with a ranged unit and a high-survivability walloff? Like I said, I'd like to see a match where that 5 seconds would matter... Otherwise, you're just saying "I'm masters you're diamond I'm right" | ||
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:00 rmAmnesiac wrote: learn to play random and get some actualy perspective on skill levels required to play this game at a standard masters level, where terran have been almost indefinitely underepresented for the past 8 months. the way to solve that is to nerf racks build time and overall terran play, buff ultras and neural parasite (where late game is already broken in zergs favour), nerf mech, and buff an laready strong protoss unit and another one which functions best under the 1 a deathball syndrom. yes that's the way to make a good and balanved game. unsurprisingly making a decent e-sport and a game nejoyable for the masses aren't totally mutuall exlcusive but retared patches like these aren't the way to go about it. And the game is perfectly balanced, that is why MC can lose to PuMa after Puma is on one base vs, MC 1 base DOUBLE WORKERS, after pulling half his SCV's to reinforce his push and PvT has a FORTY percent win rate in Korea, where the skill is the best and the farthest ahead? Also why Terran has the higher win-rate vs. zerg too correct? Oh, and Terran also has 5/8 entries in ro8 of GSL August. More than the other two races COMBINED! Terran is not inherently broken, the thing is, you seem to think that 5 seconds and two negligible buffs are going to make a huge difference. Let me ask you, do you have a problem with Mass immortal in TvP? Do you have a problem with mass Ultra in TvZ? Or rather, do the pros? Not that I know of, so show me. Show me a game where mass Immo won a game, or where mass ultra won a game, and I'll understand better. Immortals btw? Strong? yeah they can beat 4 roaches BARELY which they are supposed to HARD COUNTER which costs barely more than them. At numbers higher than that it becomes an immortal massacre. Also, again, not finalized jeez. | ||
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:00 rmAmnesiac wrote: learn to play random and get some actualy perspective on skill levels required to play this game at a standard masters level, where terran have been almost indefinitely underepresented for the past 8 months. the way to solve that is to nerf racks build time and overall terran play, buff ultras and neural parasite (where late game is already broken in zergs favour), nerf mech, and buff an laready strong protoss unit and another one which functions best under the 1 a deathball syndrom. yes that's the way to make a good and balanved game. unsurprisingly making a decent e-sport and a game nejoyable for the masses aren't totally mutuall exlcusive but retared patches like these aren't the way to go about it. The problem here is I have statistics and pro games, and you have nada. I can't accept your masters arguments while I have KR GM arguments unless you can show me otherwise, I'm sorry. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen? the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure... i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info | ||
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:05 ImmortalTofu wrote: And the game is perfectly balanced, that is why MC can lose to PuMa after Puma is on one base vs, MC 1 base DOUBLE WORKERS, after pulling half his SCV's to reinforce his push and PvT has a FORTY percent win rate in Korea, where the skill is the best and the farthest ahead? Also why Terran has the higher win-rate vs. zerg too correct? Oh, and Terran also has 5/8 entries in ro8 of GSL August. More than the other two races COMBINED! Terran is not inherently broken, the thing is, you seem to think that 5 seconds and two negligible buffs are going to make a huge difference. Let me ask you, do you have a problem with Mass immortal in TvP? Do you have a problem with mass Ultra in TvZ? Or rather, do the pros? Not that I know of, so show me. Show me a game where mass Immo won a game, or where mass ultra won a game, and I'll understand better. Immortals btw? Strong? yeah they can beat 4 roaches BARELY which they are supposed to HARD COUNTER which costs barely more than them. At numbers higher than that it becomes an immortal massacre. Also, again, not finalized jeez. hurray your only answer is pro level terrans are dominating so therefore terrans on all levels by definition should dominate. you realise how retarded that comment is? no i'm not a pro level kroean terran who plays this game 10 hours a day. as a result should i have inferior chances to win because of it? and no you don't understand terran because you have clearly never played it beyond a bronze level. hence why i said learn to play random, get some perspective. | ||
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Jacobs Ladder
United States1705 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:58 xTrim wrote: 5 seconds makes a lot of difference... a lot indeed... especially if needed for a bunker defense against cheese Pull workers and stall like every other race? | ||
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:07 rmAmnesiac wrote: hurray your only answer is pro level terrans are dominating so therefore terrans on all levels by definition should dominate. you realise how retarded that comment is? no i'm not a pro level kroean terran who plays this game 10 hours a day. as a result should i have inferior chances to win because of it? and no you don't understand terran because you have clearly never played it beyond a bronze level. hence why i said learn to play random, get some perspective. Not at all. I play Terran at Gold level btw (which isnt' saying anything). What I'm really saying si that the game should be balanced around the pros because they're the ones with the best understanding of the game. Should the rules of Football be changed because amateurs can't tackle a really strong play runner? No! | ||
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote: learn to play terran build orders then... just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen? the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure... i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. Again, show me a game where the 5 seconds would have mattered on some non-retarded map. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go. Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP. Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push. Blizzard keeps producing changes that railroad protoss players into turtling without harassment capabilities. The warp prism buff doesn't matter for harassment as I wrote above because even with more shields on it, observers and colossus are necessary to survive, while the warp prism is just a "hey, might be fun for a gimmick". P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf). | ||
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:10 ImmortalTofu wrote: Not at all. I play Terran at Gold level btw (which isnt' saying anything). What I'm really saying si that the game should be balanced around the pros because they're the ones with the best understanding of the game. Should the rules of Football be changed because amateurs can't tackle a really strong play runner? No! so that's fair on the 99.9% of players playing this game how? why are making a good e-sport and good game for the masses so totally mutually exclusive? | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
Games about to get a lot more interesting | ||
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rmAmnesiac
United Kingdom185 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:13 ImmortalTofu wrote: I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. Again, show me a game where the 5 seconds would have mattered on some non-retarded map. you realise over a course of a game 5 seconds on every single racks built adds up to quite a lot? i guess not. try to engage your brain. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:13 ImmortalTofu wrote: I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12... sorry but ur argument is fail | ||
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