|
On August 26 2011 03:14 galivet wrote:
I don't really get why protoss players are so excited about these changes.
Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go.
Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push. Blizzard keeps producing changes that railroad protoss players into turtling without harassment capabilities. The warp prism buff doesn't matter for harassment as I wrote above because even with more shields on it, observers and colossus are necessary to survive, while the warp prism is just a "hey, might be fun for a gimmick".
P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf).
I think people are really excited about two things. One, easier deflection of 1/1/1 and better efficiency against early roach play when going robo.
2. Better toss harrassment, something that's been lacking for forever (I'm not sure this will fix it, but it will definitely make it safer investment wise).
Also, that 1 marine shot makes vikings and VR last 1 fungal longer, meaning that if they have no other AA (as zergs often don't) protecting your bl's will require much more energy against well spread VR/Vikings. That's the main reason for the nerf AFAIK.
As far as DT's go, I agree, its not optimal, but! Blink stalker pushes shouldn't be changed, as most standard (and strongest) ones wait for +2 , NOT for blink to finish, therefore, it really shouldn't change much.
I do agree with you tho, I feel these changes are a bit overhyped...
|
On August 26 2011 03:15 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:13 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote:
learn to play terran build orders then...
just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12... sorry but ur argument is fail
Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not.
And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL
|
On August 26 2011 03:18 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:15 xTrim wrote:On August 26 2011 03:13 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote:
learn to play terran build orders then...
just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12... sorry but ur argument is fail Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not. And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL
i never said it was unplayable.. im saying that cheese has been greatly greatly buffed vs t
for instance, what terran player was not expecting like a crazy dude for that SINGLE MARINE TO POP AND SAVE THE DAY???
|
On August 26 2011 03:15 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:13 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote:
learn to play terran build orders then...
just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. Again, show me a game where the 5 seconds would have mattered on some non-retarded map. you realise over a course of a game 5 seconds on every single racks built adds up to quite a lot? i guess not. try to engage your brain. Stop being snotty. It won't have much of a difference. Once the rax is up there is no difference. Sure, when you drop a bunch of rax because you just expanded it delays your next wave by 5 seconds, but that is almost (99 games out of 100) not a game ending delay. Once the rax are up it plays 100% the same as before. The way I see it this change will only effect two situations. Aggressive rax timings and defending cheese.
|
On August 26 2011 03:18 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:15 xTrim wrote:On August 26 2011 03:13 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote:
learn to play terran build orders then...
just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12... sorry but ur argument is fail And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL
and by your own admission, your gold level terran play qualifies you to make that assumption?
|
You're points are very good, good thread.. hope blizzard makes use of this as a community response.
|
On August 26 2011 03:28 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:18 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:15 xTrim wrote:On August 26 2011 03:13 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote:
learn to play terran build orders then...
just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12... sorry but ur argument is fail Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not. And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL i never said it was unplayable.. im saying that cheese has been greatly greatly buffed vs t for instance, what terran player was not expecting like a crazy dude for that SINGLE MARINE TO POP AND SAVE THE DAY???
I think.... maybe you're overreacting... What other race starts their first "tech" structure as early as terran? (12 supply) You'll be fine against cheese. Just need to scout a bit earlier than before, if at all.
-random masters
|
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
|
Yes, the fact that the infestors are able to cast their spell immediately as they pop, even if you're there to kill them they can still cast it before they die because of the no casting time is hard to deal with as protoss.
|
On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
|
On August 26 2011 03:33 Aletheia27 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:28 xTrim wrote:On August 26 2011 03:18 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:15 xTrim wrote:On August 26 2011 03:13 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote:
learn to play terran build orders then...
just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. then you are talking about race specifics... what race expands at 14 with 300 resources?? or what race can have its first unit producing heavily harassed by some nasty workers? terran builds rax on 12 our 13 (gas first) because it has resources to do it... basically thats it.. when you are queuing ur 12th scv, there are 150 minerals left... so what do u do with them/? make a rax... simple as that... theres no chronoboosting, so ur not saving that extra 50 minerals to use efficiently the CB time (as a toss would) like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12... sorry but ur argument is fail Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not. And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL i never said it was unplayable.. im saying that cheese has been greatly greatly buffed vs t for instance, what terran player was not expecting like a crazy dude for that SINGLE MARINE TO POP AND SAVE THE DAY??? I think.... maybe you're overreacting... What other race starts their first "tech" structure as early as terran? (12 supply) You'll be fine against cheese. Just need to scout a bit earlier than before, if at all. -random masters
then you are talking about race specifics...
what race expands at 14 with 300 resources?? or what race can have its first unit producing heavily harassed by some nasty workers?
terran builds rax on 12 our 13 (gas first) because it has resources to do it... basically thats it.. when you are queuing ur 12th scv, there are 150 minerals left... so what do u do with them/? make a rax...
simple as that... theres no chronoboosting, so ur not saving that extra 50 minerals to use efficiently the CB time (as a toss would)
|
On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about.
Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
|
On August 26 2011 03:40 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:33 Aletheia27 wrote:On August 26 2011 03:28 xTrim wrote:On August 26 2011 03:18 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:15 xTrim wrote:On August 26 2011 03:13 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:07 xTrim wrote:
learn to play terran build orders then...
just tell me when is it viable to full wall off in a standard rax-gas build??? by delaying the orbital? for what? blind countering something that could never even happen?
the fast full wallin is only viable in gasless builds.. otherwise you get ur oribtal way late and may also cut scv.. not sure...
i agree, IF and ONLY IF scouted something nasty you should make a full wall... but in that regard im saying that perhaps 80% of the time even if you really WANT to get a complete wall the scouting worker will be already inside your base... either a toss throwing shenaningans or just getting lots and lots of scoutng info I play some Terran sometimes, and you can start a Supply depot rax walloff, and once you scout with the supply depot SCV (Like every other race does, at about 9/10) and see the cheese you can throw down another supply depot). If nothing's happenings, simply float away your rax as you build your TechLab/Reactor. As for proxy gates IN your base with a probe, its as simple as scouting around your base and killing the pylon with scv's. They lose more econ then you. then you are talking about race specifics... what race expands at 14 with 300 resources?? or what race can have its first unit producing heavily harassed by some nasty workers? terran builds rax on 12 our 13 (gas first) because it has resources to do it... basically thats it.. when you are queuing ur 12th scv, there are 150 minerals left... so what do u do with them/? make a rax... simple as that... theres no chronoboosting, so ur not saving that extra 50 minerals to use efficiently the CB time (as a toss would) like every other race does?? like PROTOSS does.... supply gets done at 11 (12 if you consider the 12th scv building) and the only time i've seen a zerg scouting very early was for 6 pool to prevent the second supply... the overlord scouts close air, then the drone scouts around 12... sorry but ur argument is fail Scouting at 11 is early enough that you can scout a 6 pool on a 2P map, and on a 3/4P map, his super early drone scout should be enough to tip you off that something is coming. Zerg also scouts at 9 depending on the map, if its big or not. And you know, I agree with you, I don't like the change, but its not a "oops terran unplayable" change at ALL i never said it was unplayable.. im saying that cheese has been greatly greatly buffed vs t for instance, what terran player was not expecting like a crazy dude for that SINGLE MARINE TO POP AND SAVE THE DAY??? I think.... maybe you're overreacting... What other race starts their first "tech" structure as early as terran? (12 supply) You'll be fine against cheese. Just need to scout a bit earlier than before, if at all. -random masters then you are talking about race specifics... what race expands at 14 with 300 resources?? or what race can have its first unit producing heavily harassed by some nasty workers? terran builds rax on 12 our 13 (gas first) because it has resources to do it... basically thats it.. when you are queuing ur 12th scv, there are 150 minerals left... so what do u do with them/? make a rax... simple as that... theres no chronoboosting, so ur not saving that extra 50 minerals to use efficiently the CB time (as a toss would)
Not saying this is a solve-all, in fact I don't think it would be at all, and I could just be completely off base, but sending a scout earlier would change the timings a bit correct, so that you wouldn't have to do things in that specific order and get you earlier information about cheese? Just wondering if that would help things at all...
|
On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter!
not unplayable no (i exagerrated) but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
|
On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play.
Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race?
I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
|
I searched the thread for the word banelings and it only came up once so..... (cant believe this has yet to be said) fungal growth no longer 1 shots banelings.
|
On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level??
terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
|
I've done this before and I know that so many people selfishly look at their own race and disregard the other races' problems some of them with even a little bit of insult added...
I think that is very disrespectful and an indication of a low level of understanding of the game.
So im asking the moderators of this website to clean their domain from people who generalize and insult a portion of community... otherwise I'd dare to say this site has a weak administration.
|
I don't really get why protoss players are so excited about these changes.
Because you're not thinking clearly.
Immortals and warp prisms were both buffed! But you build them out of the same production building, which is still the same production building that produces observers and colossus. So...it's now slightly easier to micro 2-base immortal busts? Gimmick builds that involve warp prisms are slightly easier to pull off? These little buffs didn't suddenly make immortals and warp prisms more valuable than colossus and observers; I know where my robo build time is still going to go.
This is, frankly, stupid. A major part of the problem with Protoss right now is that they are really, really inflexible. Only some of their units are viable in most situations, and all of their units are expensive. They are hugely reliant on T3, and their harass options suck at most stages of the game.They have a few effective general strats which T and Z have fairly well figured out right now, and most Toss are trying to innovate, but the problem is that they just don't have that many good units. As you say, even though the Robo tree gets you 4 units, currently only 2 are fully viable. Immortals have a very narrow timing window of not sucking, and then they are viable against only specific builds. Warp Prisms can be effective, but due to their fragility strats built around them can fall apart with the slightest misclick.
This addresses that issue. As was seen with both Roaches and Archons, range buffs are hugely beneficial to a Unit's overall effectiveness. Especially if, as with Immortals, they are both slow as hell and do insane dps once they get in range. Immortal+Zealot will hard-counter every single Roach-Ling all-in. Just park your Immortals behind your Zealots, watch the Lings get mauled as they try to get through the Zealots, while your Immortal sits safely in the back, sniping Roaches who can't hit back. An Immortal will also be much, much more useful in defending against 1/1/1 builds.
Fungal growth does one less marine shot's worth damage. Right, because that's the aspect of infestors that makes them so useful in ZvP.
Uh....you do realize that FG used to have like twice as long a root effect right? And they cut it in half and bumped the dps accordingly, at which point it became insanely powerful?
The DPS FG did to armored was 100% the problem. I mean, the Root effect is nice and all, but that has always been there, and in fact used to be better. All that has changed to make them better is higher dps. Now it is still fairly high, but not quite as crazy. That definitely helps.
Meanwhile, protoss ability to apply early- and mid-game pressure in PvZ has once more diminished. If zerg scouts your archives, it's now less expensive for him to prepare a defense against DTs and he has even longer to drone before needing to product attacking units in preparation for a potential blink stalker push.
How is it diminished? All of the stronger Blink rushes are built around hitting when +2 finishes, which is long after blink will finish pre or post patch. And nobody defends their base against DTs with Overseers anyway, they get like one spore crawler and let their queens do the rest.
P.S. I don't really care about mirror-matches; PvP is one match-up that is always guaranteed to be balanced and that a protoss will always win. "Balance" changes for PvP accomplish nothing meaningful aside from generating unanticipated backlash in PvZ and PvT (e.g. the warp gate nerf).
This is idiotic. Unless you are playing for money, which you are not because you clearly don't know what you're talking about, something being "balanced" doesn't mean shit if it isn't fun, and current PvP is a total coinflip, which is unfun. The Immortal buff and the vision changes put an end to 4-gate, the blink timing delay means it will hit to late to stop a robo from getting enough Immortals to hold it off, meaning that PvP early and midgame will stabilize around robo. However, in the lategame, Guardian shield now works vs. Colossi fire and stacks with Immortal shiels, which combined with their improved range means they can actually get close enough to snipe Colossi, meaning 1-base Colossi wars are likely over.
This is a good thing. A matchup built around coinflip BO wins which if it gets past that point turns into 1-base blink all-ins or Colossi wars 90% of the time, is stupid. Changing that is a good thing.
|
On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:48 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:45 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:41 ImmortalTofu wrote:On August 26 2011 03:38 rmAmnesiac wrote:On August 26 2011 03:35 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Amnesiac, all I want is 1 or two games where 5 seconds would have lost Terran the game. That's ALL I'm asking for. Masters/Diamond/Gold, it makes no difference, only the pros understand the game at the highest level possible atm, and the highest level is what matters when balancing...
xTrim, I was referring to Amnesiac (sorry for the mistake) when I said you thought T was unplayable.
I agree, the change is kinda bogus, and it makes T more susceptible to cheese, but I've always thought them the most cheese-proof race anyway... I don't know, I dont' think the change should go through, but I don't think its as big of a deal as some make it out to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding. i never said it would lose games i said it would make a difference sometimes significant, sometimes not, like all these changes. and that i think they are totally unfair on all terran bar korean pros. believe it or not, that's not actually the majority of people playing this race yet that's all blizzard cares about. Ok that makes more sense thank you. No I agree its not the greatest change, but you say it will make T unplayable... I see nothing to support that though, will maybe a combined 20 seconds in the fist 10 minutes of the game really end Terran's life? Ghosts and Medivac drops, the core of your latergame haven't been touched, and a drop 20 seconds later doesnt matter, its really timing as in where their army is that does matter! not unplayable no but for a race which already requires a higher level of skill to play at the same level at masters for example, it makes it a damn site unattractive race to play. Hm... ok that is much better reasoned. APM is irrelevant to skill, but i WOULD like to point out sjow. The guy has 100 apm, less than half most pros, and still does well in every event he enters... Now again, APM doesn't really matter, and you're talking about masters not pro, but I see SOME level of connection here, and I say that it doesn't require THAT much more skill... Are you suggesting that Protoss players and Zerg players suck and win because of their race? I'm just asking, I don't actually play terran at any reasonable level, so I don't really know. How does it take more skill at masters/dia level?? terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?
Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented?
Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp
I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker)
Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
