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On August 25 2011 19:57 blooblooblahblah wrote:
I'm not sure you fully understood the implications of the ramp vision change, the immortal change and the blink change in PvP. Otherwise, decent breakdown.
If you would read the posts at all that were made before you maybe you would understand.
The reason to nerf vision range is because you could still pull of a agressive 4 gate over a defensive protoss that is FF his ramp.You could warp in things behind the FF and get instant vision up the ramp to warp in more on top of it,or you could blink a stalker behind the FF and get vision.Either way its another 4 gate nerf to pvp imo.
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protoss balls will be even easier to a move around now :D.
Nerd immortal range down to 4, and introduce a buff to general player skill over time. Much more interesting dynamics that way.
I play toss.. but.. when people flame me on ladder, from now on theres no real comeback now..
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Overseer: Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50.
Implications and reasoning: Yay! 1: Detection is cheaper. I have seen SO many protoss try out new styles as of late, one of the more popular being blinkstalker/DT, where the stalkers only job is to snipe the overseer. 2: For zergs to get a fast scout, they must first morph lair, and THEN morph overlord speed. Now, there is the option of delaying ovie speed slightly and morph a nearby overlord to an overseer for a cheaper cost and a faster scout.
P likes to open early air against Z to secure third and to get map control. It's so beneficial to open air, as it forces Z to spend money on spores, evo, extra queens and so forth. It's almost impossible to have it not pay for itself now, unless:
Now upon scouting the gas timings indicating a SG opener, Z might be able to commit into Spire and just go contest air with corruptors, as detection gets that much cheaper, any DT surprise wouldn't catch Z off guard, and and if it is DTs, one could just simply spend the gas on Mutas, as the Blink research time nerf for TC play widens the window of opportunity.
If Z gets a timing window to work for this type of build, the metagame might change dramatically. It would become impossible to secure a third for P with air only, the colossus would be out of the picture for obvious reasons, and it would be easy to get a whole mapcontrol with speedlings on the ground.
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Overall I like the patch notes, still I'm waiting for EMP to require research.
I'm not fully convinced that PvP will just be Robo vs. Robo, I can see some fine and viable Phoenix builds evolving - especially with Blink research time reduced.
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On August 25 2011 20:06 Imalengrat wrote:
This is going to be interesting. I wonder if all these will get past the PTR. I think BFH if were nerfed I think the price might need to be lower with it. Just because 150 gas is a lot if it isn't as good as it once was. Shall be interesting.
Why make it cost less, make hellions cost more! How does a vehicle which shoots napalm from its back in which the driver is smoking not cost any gas!
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Fungal is still strong PvZ:
Unchanged
probes before 2 fungals now 2 fungals.
zealot before 5 fungals now 5 fungals.
stalker before 4 fungals now 4 fungals.
sentry before 3 fungals now 3 fungals.
DT before 4 fungals now 4 fungals.
HT before 3 fungals now 3 fungals.
Changed
Void before 6 fungals now 7 fungals.
Colossus before 6 fungals now 7 fungals.
Phoenix before 4 fungals now 5 fungals.
Carrier before 10 fungals now 12 fungals.
Immortal before 7 fungals now 8 fungals.
Archon before 10 fungals now 12 fungals.
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Really hate the hellion nerf, it just feels like everytime terran find a way to use mech (siege tanks, thors, hellions), it gets smashed into the ground by Blizzard, like they only want terrans to go marine/tank and marine/marauder. Hellions weren't even overpowered aside from arguably TvT, which doesn't really matter, just means the TvT meta-game shifts. They were just usable in TvZ and TvP, and now their only use is (once again) getting out a couple of hellions early on against zerg and "hoping your BFH drop does good damage". Oh, btw, what people "hope" will change with this change is that you won't suddenly lose 30 workers if you miscontrol during a hellion drop, well, you still will, sorry. This just means they are simply no longer viable units in your main army. Oh well, guess it's back to hating all terran matchups as they're back to turtling only
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As a Zerg player, Immortals and Ravens suddenly scare the hell out of me. Immortal timing pushes were already something to be super scared of if you went roaches... Them being able to hide behind stalkers/zealots/ffs and decimate roaches is just lethal.
As for the raven, I don't think this game would have Zerg/Toss players if you were to tell BW players that Terran got a reaver mixed with a defiler that could fly and detect cloaked units.
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Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
This is not a nerf to the contaminate ability, at least not entirely. Where before you had to spend 50/100 for 1 Overseer with 75 energy contaminates, now you can spend 100/100 for 2 overseers with 125 energy contaminates each. That means that the spell is more gas efficient and less mineral efficient but with a longer initial downtime.
Here is an example: If you had a build where you wanted 4 overseers to contaminate harass then that would have cost you 200/400 and you would get 8 casts per 150 energy. And now, if you spend the same gas, it is 400/400 but you get 8 overseers and therefore 8 casts per 125 energy. So you gain more casts per minute per gas.
I don't know if this makes sense or is worth mentioning. Hopefully this helps somebody.
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Contaminate 75->125 energy is because of the halved Gas cost. It would make Mass overseer strategies to viable.
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I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!!
Do the math! :D
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I like the sound of the changes overall, being an avid warp prism user and starting to try more late game motherships, I'm loving those changes. Blink is understandable but annoying, and the immortal change I'm fine with personally (from a PvP stand-point)
I don't really understand the barracks build time change, I don't play TvZ so I can't really comment on that. Overseer change is definitely good, I was thinking either cheapen the overseer or move overlord speed to hatch tech, this works great - along with the contaminate change for obvious reasons
Every thing else I'm fine with basically, see how it works out when we get to play it
As for vision range up ramps, I'm not sure I exactly understand how this works -
+ Show Spoiler [Picture of ramp] +
Lets say the red line is the limit of vision from the bottom of the ramp as it is, and if you go beyond that line, you can see the high ground as you normally would. Does this change mean that now that line is moved down the ramp towards the yellow line?
So for example, a forcefield at the bottom of the ramp means that someone cannot warp in or blink above the forcefield anymore, because the yellow line is in place instead of the red?
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I am really excited about many of the changes here. The Blue Flame upgrade was something I was becoming increasingly annoyed about. I think this is a good change, as it still gives a healthy damage bonus which makes them still very useful units, but it doesn't make the use of light ground units completely useless in army vs army scenarios like it was becoming.
I'm personally happiest about the Immortal range buff... This was something that was absolutely needed... Especially since Marauders have a range of 6. Going Immortals was pretty much always useless as they would never get in range to attack the unit they want to attack (since if they move up the marines just drop the Immortal like it's nothing).
Infestor nerf was absolutely needed and I think pretty well everyone agreed on that... They were just a little too powerful.
Warp Prism buff also has many implications as well, as you are no longer flying in the "paper plane" to try and do a drop.
All in all, as a Protoss I am extremely happy with these changes.
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Wow huge buff to the overseer. Great for Zergs I guess.
Zerg early game scouting heavily depends on running up the enemy ramp to see what's there. It's vital to be able to do that and the vision decrease will change the zerg early game somewhat i think. This will force zergs to make more than just 2 or 4 initial lings and then just power drone for 5 min because you'll need more lings to scout up the ramp now (less vision means they will get killed more easily right?). Smart move if this was the intention because I always found it odd that Zerg could survive the first 6 min with like only 2 lings in some cases.
I don't mind the infestor nerf but find it an odd choice. In my opinion the point of FG is more to keep the units immobile, especially in big engagements against Toss. In fact I miss the days where fungals lasted 8 seconds, nevermind the old dps buff, I want those blink Stalkers to sit tight for as long as possible. The damage is important but less so than the trapping effect in my opinion. Of course the dps buff was great for mineral line harras.
Ultralisk buff is a bit unreasonable and i'm a Zerg. Every time I get 5 or 6 Ultra's I usually dominate the engagments (I'm only Platinum btw). They are so strong it's ridiculous sometimes. This will make Ultras ALOT more common, I can't wait to see the community's reaction to this if it makes it into the game.
Hurray for Toss changes though because I think they favorably impact units that are not used enough and also help us non-tosses against a very (maybe too much) strong tactic of Blink.
To be honest I don't think the changes to Terran are going to change anything although they make BFH less appealing, I don't think it's game changing for anyone since BFH still 3 shot workers.
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On August 25 2011 20:09 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 19:57 blooblooblahblah wrote:
I'm not sure you fully understood the implications of the ramp vision change, the immortal change and the blink change in PvP. Otherwise, decent breakdown. If you would read the posts at all that were made before you maybe you would understand. The reason to nerf vision range is because you could still pull of a agressive 4 gate over a defensive protoss that is FF his ramp.You could warp in things behind the FF and get instant vision up the ramp to warp in more on top of it,or you could blink a stalker behind the FF and get vision.Either way its another 4 gate nerf to pvp imo.
I know tht? I dont get it. Did i say something wrong?
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I was sure the BFH problem was gonna be solved by a health nerf to the BFH, not a damage nerf ... oh well
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On August 25 2011 20:13 choopakabra wrote:
Fungal is still strong PvZ:
Unchanged
probes before 2 fungals now 2 fungals.
zealot before 5 fungals now 5 fungals.
stalker before 4 fungals now 4 fungals.
sentry before 3 fungals now 3 fungals.
DT before 4 fungals now 4 fungals.
HT before 3 fungals now 3 fungals.
Changed
Void before 6 fungals now 7 fungals.
Colossus before 6 fungals now 7 fungals.
Phoenix before 4 fungals now 5 fungals.
Carrier before 10 fungals now 12 fungals.
Immortal before 7 fungals now 8 fungals.
Archon before 10 fungals now 12 fungals.
Thank you for the info. In any case I never really used FG to do damage to the big units anyways. Fungals for me have always been about keeping the army in place and as far as I know they still do that. Mind you one more fungal needed for killing Phoenixes is somewhat of a big deal in some cases.
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Good writeup!
The BF Hellion damage change vs light (8+6+10=24 changed to 8+6+5=19) implies:
vs Marine (45hp): Need 3 hits instead of 2
vs Marine with shield (55hp): 3 hits (no change)
With this change, a marine with combat shield+stim can stim once and still need 3 Hellion hits before dying but right now you can only take 2 hits.
Hm I wonder what this means for TvT that seem to have shifted to Hellions instead of marines...?
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I think the ramp vision change has been made for 2v2 , a p-z team could on "small" or "medium" sized maps 6-7p and cannon rush shared ramps , it was an unstopable push with lings spotting halfway up the ramp and cannons slowlypushing from bellow the ramp into ur mains.... or it might be to make it easier for P vs. roach rush. 
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When will this patch come?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LfPMu.jpg)
