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On September 21 2011 16:08 Big J wrote:
yeah, just like expected, Im now playing against Thor/Hellion all the time from terrans...
"Hey, I didn't kill you when you had >5 thors and still don't have Broodlords, because apparently it is minute 15.... gg"
Tried to neural... Infestors got stuck behind roaches and when they finally NPed he just killed them...
mass roach would clean that up right?
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On September 21 2011 16:08 Big J wrote:
yeah, just like expected, Im now playing against Thor/Hellion all the time from terrans...
"Hey, I didn't kill you when you had >5 thors and still don't have Broodlords, because apparently it is minute 15.... gg"
Tried to neural... Infestors got stuck behind roaches and when they finally NPed he just killed them...
You admit that you micro'd poorly and are still whining? Ok...how about you position your units better next time or do some burrow micro to get into position? Thor/helion is quite easy to hard-counter even without infestors, which is why you see most pro terrans go marine/tank.
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On September 21 2011 16:31 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 16:08 Big J wrote:
yeah, just like expected, Im now playing against Thor/Hellion all the time from terrans...
"Hey, I didn't kill you when you had >5 thors and still don't have Broodlords, because apparently it is minute 15.... gg"
Tried to neural... Infestors got stuck behind roaches and when they finally NPed he just killed them... You admit that you micro'd poorly and are still whining? Ok...how about you position your units better next time or do some burrow micro to get into position? Thor/helion is quite easy to hard-counter even without infestors, which is why you see most pro terrans go marine/tank.
you can't burrow micro defensivly vs terran, because he scans anyway...
and yeah, ofc they mixed in like 2 or 3 tanks... better positioning is only viable if you go defensively, which you can't against an opponent who sits on his ass and masses up stuff. That's where you NEED broodlords, but if he pushes you NEED roaches, so you're coinflipping if he moves out or not (which isn't really a coinflip for him, because he can keep scouting forever with hellions, if it is wise to attack or not)
I agree that those Mech styles are still pretty bad at all, but you really don't need a brain to play Mech TvZ now, because you either push at a random timing and win if he didn't go mass roach, or you push at 200 supply and win if he did.
It means Zerg has to react to Terrans composition, because they don't have anything universal, while for Terran there are still 3 completly universal compositions and he doesn't have to care a lot about anything zerg does until 20mins are over.
It's just bullshit how this patch affects a formerly balanced (if not even slightly terran favored) matchup.
btw, it's not poor micro if 7range Thor attack roaches, and you try to close distance to them, but you can't because there are still hellions in the way, which means for the infestors there are still roaches and hellions in the way, adding up to around 2-3 range loss, which means you don't fight 7range thor with 7range neural, because unless you're stupid and send your infestors in heads up, you can't get in range easily...
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On September 21 2011 09:47 Conquerer67 wrote:The OP should put this into the OP. Poll: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (32) 35% Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (21) 23% Yes, it's the best patch ever (17) 19% Hell no, this is the worst patch ever (11) 12% I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (10) 11% 91 total votes Your vote: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4 (Vote): Yes, it's the best patch ever
(Vote): Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall
(Vote): I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame
(Vote): Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba
(Vote): Hell no, this is the worst patch ever
An answer similar to "ok patch, but doesn't adress the most problematic issues" is missing for me.
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On September 21 2011 18:51 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 09:47 Conquerer67 wrote:The OP should put this into the OP. Poll: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (32) 35% Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (21) 23% Yes, it's the best patch ever (17) 19% Hell no, this is the worst patch ever (11) 12% I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (10) 11% 91 total votes Your vote: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4 (Vote): Yes, it's the best patch ever
(Vote): Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall
(Vote): I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame
(Vote): Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba
(Vote): Hell no, this is the worst patch ever
An answer similar to "ok patch, but doesn't adress the most problematic issues" is missing for me.
jup, or something like: "it does adress the right problems in the wrong ways/not enough..."
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On September 21 2011 18:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 18:51 sleepingdog wrote:On September 21 2011 09:47 Conquerer67 wrote:The OP should put this into the OP. Poll: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (32) 35% Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (21) 23% Yes, it's the best patch ever (17) 19% Hell no, this is the worst patch ever (11) 12% I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (10) 11% 91 total votes Your vote: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4 (Vote): Yes, it's the best patch ever
(Vote): Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall
(Vote): I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame
(Vote): Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba
(Vote): Hell no, this is the worst patch ever
An answer similar to "ok patch, but doesn't adress the most problematic issues" is missing for me. jup, or something like: "it does adress the right problems in the wrong ways/not enough..."
for me (protoss) the biggest problems are:
PvT: ghosts crippling toss left and right; since MMM is > toss gateway units (acknowledged fact) it makes little sense that the ghost has to be the better unit....even on paper (snipe/EMP-range > feedback/storm-range; movement speed; just to name a few).
PvZ: more fundamental issues that I'm not even sure how to adress; basicly it's FFE vs fast third and somehow zerg is always ahead with 20-40 supply in midgame and has complete mapcontrol....maybe revert the zealot-buildtime-nerf to bring back the theoretical threat of double gate zealot pressure? like terrans have double rax marines? dunno;
infestor change is very nice and doesn't overdo it "in the other direction" (meaning an overnerf after an overbuff), but the cheesy ling/infestor-stuff aside, the underlying very problematic structure of the matchup overall remains untouched; probably Blizz just doesn't want to do anything too severe before HotS
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Where is the diminishing returns for infestors... The damage is fin, the chain stun isn't
I Will miss blink for sure in the early game vs toss
AND where is the fuking ghost nerf
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On September 21 2011 19:01 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 18:54 Big J wrote:On September 21 2011 18:51 sleepingdog wrote:On September 21 2011 09:47 Conquerer67 wrote:The OP should put this into the OP. Poll: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall (32) 35% Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba (21) 23% Yes, it's the best patch ever (17) 19% Hell no, this is the worst patch ever (11) 12% I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame (10) 11% 91 total votes Your vote: Are you satisfied overall with Patch 1.4 (Vote): Yes, it's the best patch ever
(Vote): Pretty much, some useless things, but I like it overall
(Vote): I feel that the patch made absolutely no changes to the metagame
(Vote): Not really, they changed some things that were balanced to now being imba
(Vote): Hell no, this is the worst patch ever
An answer similar to "ok patch, but doesn't adress the most problematic issues" is missing for me. jup, or something like: "it does adress the right problems in the wrong ways/not enough..." for me (protoss) the biggest problems are: PvT: ghosts crippling toss left and right; since MMM is > toss gateway units (acknowledged fact) it makes little sense that the ghost has to be the better unit....even on paper (snipe/EMP-range > feedback/storm-range; movement speed; just to name a few). PvZ: more fundamental issues that I'm not even sure how to adress; basicly it's FFE vs fast third and somehow zerg is always ahead with 20-40 supply in midgame and has complete mapcontrol....maybe revert the zealot-buildtime-nerf to bring back the theoretical threat of double gate zealot pressure? like terrans have double rax marines? dunno; infestor change is very nice and doesn't overdo it "in the other direction" (meaning an overnerf after an overbuff), but the cheesy ling/infestor-stuff aside, the underlying very problematic structure of the matchup overall remains untouched; probably Blizz just doesn't want to do anything too severe before HotS
yeah, I agree... (me zerg)
Something about the ghost is too strong in TvP imo (I would say the snipe/EMP battle vs feedback is too much in the terran favor right now)
PvZ... I don't know, I just don't like the whole flow of the matchup. In my eyes Protoss has troubles when it comes to macro games, mostly because Protoss has to much coinflip tech.
Air play: you get instantly ahead/win or you abbandon it in the long run
Colossi: you build a deathball and win in 1battle, or you have lost
DT: you get instantly ahead/win or you abbandon it in the long run
I think airplay is the key problem here with Zerg having a ground to ground superiority unit like the roach (in terms of costefficientness). Protoss needs someway to combat Zerg without getting crippled... Maybe it's the metagame, but I think Protoss could need a buff in terms of mobile play, without making rushes or turteling stronger... Also I simply don't like the Colossus' design. It's straight up too strong in certain situations and straight up to hard to play in the longrun.
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I actually see myself using ultralisks alot more after this patch... i duno.. maybe it's just me 
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On September 21 2011 15:49 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 09:51 Squigly wrote:
Why do you need a robo in PvT. Im not saying you dont but im curious. T only have cloak banshees. If you are going heavy gate you already have a forge. Just plop down a cannon in each min line, and one i dunno somewhere to cover your army. It takes three cannons to protect a mineral line from banshees. Four if you don't want to put them in the way of mining probes and slow down your income. Just placing one or two lets him snipe probes off at the end or deny the gas.
Why does it? The cannon doesnt need to be able to shoot the banshee just to detect it. You dont want to fight stalkers with banshees. Its just not cost effective at all, especially if you have researched cloak.
Can you not scout cloak really easily with a halluc? And if so plop down a robo? Seems like you could, but who seriously opens cloak against P apart from an all in?
Notice thses are all questions lol. If you a master+ Protoss and say you get raped by cloak if you dont open robo, then, fair enough. It just seems like you could easily scout it in time.
Halluc takes 80 seconds to research, so say very tops 2 min to scout from when you start research. You can get an observer out in 90 seconds from no robo.
Your early scout should also give you information if it was gas first. Early 2nd gas etc. If they dont show you that banshees will be delayed.
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My overall concern in this patch, is that it's clearly intended to help Protoss,
but I think it may fall very short of doing so because it doesn't address what's really wrong.
But then later on, when they're planning the Next patch...it will seem like they just nerfed Terran into the ground, but they really only nerfed TvT and TvZ.
And ZvP will seem like Infestors were totally fixed, but still have the FG and IT issues...really by nerfing NP, you're simply 'Forcing' Colossus again as the path to take.
So Im concerned that they won't be willing to patch and nerf the matches again because they Think they fixed it this time around and it would look bad to do it again.
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On September 21 2011 17:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 16:31 acrimoneyius wrote:On September 21 2011 16:08 Big J wrote:
yeah, just like expected, Im now playing against Thor/Hellion all the time from terrans...
"Hey, I didn't kill you when you had >5 thors and still don't have Broodlords, because apparently it is minute 15.... gg"
Tried to neural... Infestors got stuck behind roaches and when they finally NPed he just killed them... You admit that you micro'd poorly and are still whining? Ok...how about you position your units better next time or do some burrow micro to get into position? Thor/helion is quite easy to hard-counter even without infestors, which is why you see most pro terrans go marine/tank. you can't burrow micro defensivly vs terran, because he scans anyway...and yeah, ofc they mixed in like 2 or 3 tanks... better positioning is only viable if you go defensively, which you can't against an opponent who sits on his ass and masses up stuff. That's where you NEED broodlords, but if he pushes you NEED roaches, so you're coinflipping if he moves out or not (which isn't really a coinflip for him, because he can keep scouting forever with hellions, if it is wise to attack or not)
Ok..I think you're assuming I mean to burrow your entire army or something. "I can't do x because hes able to do y" is a really poor way to think about the game. You see zerg's sneak with single infestors to lob an infested terran at a siege tank to cause friendly fire (that is even more risky than what I'm suggesting).
One burrowed infestor on either side of the terran army (before the engagement) split off from your main army is not a difficult tactic to execute. Send in your army when terran commits on your creep, pop up the two infestors from either side and neural parasite the closest thor's to them, then select your roaches and kite the thors while hitting the helions, burrow to heal up.....there are so many ways to micro against a heavy thor army, you basically shouldn't be doing anything but microing when a terran commits..because the game is basically over if you crush that army (unless you let him freely expand throughout the game).
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Marines > gateway units and immortals.
+1 range is going to make SOO much difference.. not.
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On September 21 2011 20:44 SilverforceX wrote:
Marines > gateway units and immortals.
+1 range is going to make SOO much difference.. not.
trolol? Marines vs chargelots and blink stalkers with GS im pretty sure get ass raped.
EDIT: and I assume you dont count HT as gateway? Even though.....
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what you guys think about tvt, any diffrences ?
i played 2 tvt today (master lvl) and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines. only vs hellions. in late game it also isnt needed that much (i couldnt find 150//150 to get it) i played 2x vs fast blue flame openings and i was able to defend easily with regular hellion + faster tank (due to 150//150 save) also defending vs (blue flame??) hellion drops was much more easier.
so maybe we gonna see more bio play now. (however vs bio blue flame didnt change at all - still 3 shot vs shielded marine)
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On September 21 2011 20:53 NoDDiE wrote:
what you guys think about tvt, any diffrences ?
i played 2 tvt today (master lvl) and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines. only vs hellions. in late game it also isnt needed that much (i couldnt find 150//150 to get it) i played 2x vs fast blue flame openings and i was able to defend easily with regular hellion + faster tank (due to 150//150 save) also defending vs (blue flame??) hellion drops was much more easier.
so maybe we gonna see more bio play now. (however vs bio blue flame didnt change at all - still 3 shot vs shielded marine)
It takes 3 shots to kill uncombat-shielded marines now instead of 2 from before, which will significantly affect a lot of TvT openers where most of the volatility in one base vs one base is occuring.
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I think we should stay calm for a few days or even weeks because it clearly needs time to see whether its a good patch or not, but i have a question for pvp: Is warping up the ramp behind a ff only hindered or completely impossible now, if the ff is placed correctly?
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On September 21 2011 20:47 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 20:44 SilverforceX wrote:
Marines > gateway units and immortals.
+1 range is going to make SOO much difference.. not. trolol? Marines vs chargelots and blink stalkers with GS im pretty sure get ass raped. EDIT: and I assume you dont count HT as gateway? Even though.....
Stim, micro. Rape zealots and especially stalkers.
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Protoss gets buffed
Terran gets hit with the nerf bat... in a big way
Yet Protoss are still complaining.... Just let Collossi attack air and that will balance out the whole game for them.
There is seriously sooo much complaining, why don't you all just find other ways of winning then coming on here complaining? Terran got nerfed and now they wil just find another way around it, when they do everyone will have a cry again and call for another Terran nerf. I can't believe people are now asking for a ghost nerf... you really have to be kidding me.
I am a hater of the hellion nerf as I liked the "unpredictability" of those units, and the increase of rax build time... Oh please, soon terran will only just be able to turtle on 2 base and not even move at all.
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On September 21 2011 21:12 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 20:53 NoDDiE wrote:
what you guys think about tvt, any diffrences ?
i played 2 tvt today (master lvl) and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines. only vs hellions. in late game it also isnt needed that much (i couldnt find 150//150 to get it) i played 2x vs fast blue flame openings and i was able to defend easily with regular hellion + faster tank (due to 150//150 save) also defending vs (blue flame??) hellion drops was much more easier.
so maybe we gonna see more bio play now. (however vs bio blue flame didnt change at all - still 3 shot vs shielded marine) It takes 3 shots to kill uncombat-shielded marines now instead of 2 from before, which will significantly affect a lot of TvT openers where most of the volatility in one base vs one base is occuring.
i wrote that in part "and i noticed that blue flame is kinda useless now. in early game no diffrence vs workers//marines" :D
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EPT
