|
On September 15 2011 03:33 Sottilde wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 23:53 Squigly wrote:
"Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly? Absolutely they do. There are many times I would love to go straight to blink stalkers, or to DTs, or to stargate play, but the specter of the opponent throwing some cloaked units at me is enough to force me to go Robo. Honestly I think it's downright crazy that you are forced to go early robo just in order to have detection. Cannons are expensive as hell and you can't really realistically afford putting one or two in your mineral line and others around your buildings in case a DT or cloaked banshee shows up. And when something does catch you off guard, that's 200/100 + 25/75 to get detection, plus 65+40 in build time. 105 seconds is more than enough for anything cloaked to kill you or set you seriously behind. Lair is a tech choice every Zerg must make eventually as a prereq to other tech, and scan is so damned useful that every single Terran always has it and generally never bothers with Ravens.
I'm a zerg and I support this message 
Toss is truly forced to get a robo for observers, which limits their potential builds in the mid game.
|
I'd be interested to hear how that wasn't the case with toss in BW, if I remember correctly, it was. Obs was still their only detector besides cannons and came out of the robo fac.
|
Early game cloaked units were much less scary in BW. A wraith couldn't take a dragoon 1v1 nor could it rack up 15 probe kills while cloaked. I think you could also have a cannon finish before a wraith could focus fire it down, at which point, its still burning cloak and not getting probe kills. Also, as far as I know (having not played BW in many many years), wraiths were never really viable in a straight up 1 base push after their worker line harass was done due. When a high damage, high range unit can cloak, it informs most of your strategies.
The only thing I've been able to figure out is that you can usually get a 2 phoenix to the T base at around the time a banshee is popping out and try to snipe it and scout for if cloak is researching.
|
With NeuralParasite nerf, skill is beecoming useless & shuld be trashed. there is no unit worth going NP now. (U can NP immortals, but if u are going for NP because u scout them, u are stupid. )
Wise man said: Gods creations were perfect until Roach+Hydra+Corruptor.
|
What was the tech time difference in DTs or Lurker (vs Roach Burrow tech) in BW?
On September 16 2011 00:02 Declination wrote:
The only thing I've been able to figure out is that you can usually get a 2 phoenix to the T base at around the time a banshee is popping out and try to snipe it and scout for if cloak is researching.
Also - couldn't you hallucinate scout? Or does that delay obs too long in case of them going banshee?
|
Wraith 120hp 8+1 ground damage 20+2 air damage
Banshee 140hp 12+1 (X2) ground damage with approx the same cooldown (1.25)
Probe 40hp in both games.
|
On September 15 2011 23:28 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 03:33 Sottilde wrote:On September 13 2011 23:53 Squigly wrote:
"Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly? Absolutely they do. There are many times I would love to go straight to blink stalkers, or to DTs, or to stargate play, but the specter of the opponent throwing some cloaked units at me is enough to force me to go Robo. Honestly I think it's downright crazy that you are forced to go early robo just in order to have detection. Cannons are expensive as hell and you can't really realistically afford putting one or two in your mineral line and others around your buildings in case a DT or cloaked banshee shows up. And when something does catch you off guard, that's 200/100 + 25/75 to get detection, plus 65+40 in build time. 105 seconds is more than enough for anything cloaked to kill you or set you seriously behind. Lair is a tech choice every Zerg must make eventually as a prereq to other tech, and scan is so damned useful that every single Terran always has it and generally never bothers with Ravens. I'm a zerg and I support this message Toss is truly forced to get a robo for observers, which limits their potential builds in the mid game.
The lack of Protoss early detection does seem rather unfair, maybe if like, Hallucinated Observers could detect or something that's be cool, wouldn't make any sense but it would be cool.
Zerg don't really suffer from a lack of detection till late game having to rely on Overseers which are super easy to kill off, but at least the lowering of their cost by 50 gas makes it more affordable to replace them when they get picked off.
Zerg just needs some improved form of early scouting and I'd be happy. Give Zergs better early scouting and Protoss some kind of more affordable early mobile detection.
|
On September 16 2011 00:12 Reithan wrote:
What was the tech time difference in DTs or Lurker (vs Roach Burrow tech) in BW?
Also - couldn't you hallucinate scout? Or does that delay obs too long in case of them going banshee?
I'm not sure about the DTs but it seemed like in PvP everyone got a Robo for the reavers anyway. Lurkers you could sort of stall and can't bypass the terrain.
I've found that rushing Robo is kind of touch and go since if you have an obs, you want to scout their base, but the cloaked banshee always seem to hit when the obs is almost to their base and the second obs is not done/not started. I feel like you need to make 2 obs always if you are afraid of cloaked banshees. Phoenixes are so fast and build so fast with chrono that you can get the scout much earlier and see if the are researching cloak.
I've been favoring the real phoenix since at my level (low masters) if they are going for 1-1-1 I can usually pick off the first banshee and keep them in their base for longer and it stands up decently against tank only 1 base pushes. For me, its not so much an issue of seeing the banshees coming but stopping them in such a way that doesn't leave me vulnerable to other tech plays. I'm usually reasonably confident if they are going for mm or some kind of tech by the time I need to throw down a starport, so I just do, since it seems to work out ok.
|
God this is stupid... Protosess has alot more & alot worse problems than "lack of early game detection" -.-'
|
On September 15 2011 23:55 Reithan wrote:
I'd be interested to hear how that wasn't the case with toss in BW, if I remember correctly, it was. Obs was still their only detector besides cannons and came out of the robo fac.
Unfortunately in PvT there wasn't as much potential for Terran to cripple Protoss without detection.
Also, Protoss is considered the weakest of the 3 races in BW, so maybe that isn't such a good thing?
|
Protoss lacks scouting and detection DOT
If protoss makes observer he will not be producing Colossus or immortals, he'll be weakier. Observers are so easily sniped that is a bullshit doing 4 observers just to see what tech he is dumping !
Can't anyone see this? Terran has so freely scout with scan plus detection....zerg has most mobile unit that is lings and overlords for spooting (that custs less then scan), but protoss has to expose his army to scout, or stop robo units for observers....this game is a big troll in protoss face !
|
On September 21 2011 00:51 The_DarkAngelz wrote:
Protoss lacks scouting and detection DOT
If protoss makes observer he will not be producing Colossus or immortals, he'll be weakier. Observers are so easily sniped that is a bullshit doing 4 observers just to see what tech he is dumping !
Can't anyone see this? Terran has so freely scout with scan plus detection....zerg has most mobile unit that is lings and overlords for spooting (that custs less then scan), but protoss has to expose his army to scout, or stop robo units for observers....this game is a big troll in protoss face !
Hallucinate a Phoenix next time? I don't think scouting is Protoss's biggest problem right now as a race, and its certainly not behind Terran of all races. There's a reason why pro Terrans almost never Scan, and its not because they don't need to, or want to, scout.
|
On September 21 2011 03:23 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 00:51 The_DarkAngelz wrote:
Protoss lacks scouting and detection DOT
If protoss makes observer he will not be producing Colossus or immortals, he'll be weakier. Observers are so easily sniped that is a bullshit doing 4 observers just to see what tech he is dumping !
Can't anyone see this? Terran has so freely scout with scan plus detection....zerg has most mobile unit that is lings and overlords for spooting (that custs less then scan), but protoss has to expose his army to scout, or stop robo units for observers....this game is a big troll in protoss face ! Hallucinate a Phoenix next time? I don't think scouting is Protoss's biggest problem right now as a race, and its certainly not behind Terran of all races. There's a reason why pro Terrans almost never Scan, and its not because they don't need to, or want to, scout.
Scouting is a HUGE issue for Protoss.
Believe it or not.
Pro Terrans rarely scan because they don't need to. There are 1-2 timings PvT where they have
to scan if they want to be 100% safe, but mostly they can work sufficiently enough with what info their
SCV gets.
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 15 2011 23:55 Reithan wrote:
I'd be interested to hear how that wasn't the case with toss in BW, if I remember correctly, it was. Obs was still their only detector besides cannons and came out of the robo fac.
You didn't straight up die if your enemy rushed cloaked units in BW, wraith =/= banshee. Cannons were adequate in that game for a while.
|
On September 21 2011 03:23 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 00:51 The_DarkAngelz wrote:
Protoss lacks scouting and detection DOT
If protoss makes observer he will not be producing Colossus or immortals, he'll be weakier. Observers are so easily sniped that is a bullshit doing 4 observers just to see what tech he is dumping !
Can't anyone see this? Terran has so freely scout with scan plus detection....zerg has most mobile unit that is lings and overlords for spooting (that custs less then scan), but protoss has to expose his army to scout, or stop robo units for observers....this game is a big troll in protoss face ! Hallucinate a Phoenix next time? I don't think scouting is Protoss's biggest problem right now as a race, and its certainly not behind Terran of all races. There's a reason why pro Terrans almost never Scan, and its not because they don't need to, or want to, scout.
Even if toss uses hallucinate, he has to waste more gas in the upgrade, AND losing sentry mana with is the main key for not losing to other races.
|
I like the idea of hallucinated observers. Given that Fungal and EMP already detect for less energy than hallucination, this seems fair.
|
On September 21 2011 04:09 meadbert wrote:
I like the idea of hallucinated observers. Given that Fungal and EMP already detect for less energy than hallucination, this seems fair.
noone thought about that...hallucineted observer that detects?? that's imba !!
edit:it'd counter banshee as hell !
|
Psi storm revealing units that are inside its effect would be neat. EMP and Fungal do this anyway.
|
On September 16 2011 00:32 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 23:28 Shadrak wrote:On September 15 2011 03:33 Sottilde wrote:On September 13 2011 23:53 Squigly wrote:
"Observers require you to commit to a tech path" Really? Reaaalllly? Absolutely they do. There are many times I would love to go straight to blink stalkers, or to DTs, or to stargate play, but the specter of the opponent throwing some cloaked units at me is enough to force me to go Robo. Honestly I think it's downright crazy that you are forced to go early robo just in order to have detection. Cannons are expensive as hell and you can't really realistically afford putting one or two in your mineral line and others around your buildings in case a DT or cloaked banshee shows up. And when something does catch you off guard, that's 200/100 + 25/75 to get detection, plus 65+40 in build time. 105 seconds is more than enough for anything cloaked to kill you or set you seriously behind. Lair is a tech choice every Zerg must make eventually as a prereq to other tech, and scan is so damned useful that every single Terran always has it and generally never bothers with Ravens. I'm a zerg and I support this message Toss is truly forced to get a robo for observers, which limits their potential builds in the mid game. The lack of Protoss early detection does seem rather unfair, maybe if like, Hallucinated Observers could detect or something that's be cool, wouldn't make any sense but it would be cool. Zerg don't really suffer from a lack of detection till late game having to rely on Overseers which are super easy to kill off, but at least the lowering of their cost by 50 gas makes it more affordable to replace them when they get picked off. Zerg just needs some improved form of early scouting and I'd be happy. Give Zergs better early scouting and Protoss some kind of more affordable early mobile detection.
That's actually a really interesting idea. Allowing Obs to be hallucinated, and detect for their duration.
What i like about it is that is it costs Protoss money and energy to get that out, and isn't as viable means of detection, as the actual obs. Though the trade off is that you can streamline you builds more, with out as much fear of cloaked units.
Though if someone were to commit heavily and carefully enough to cloaked units, they could still be a problem for someone who doesn't get the actual observers. Though that's just the Toss's fault for not scouting enough in that case.
I say all this as a Zerg player. I think its fair. I guess one stipulation i would put on it, would be that Hallucinated Obs shouldn't be cloaked. Though that might just be my bias. Kinda like how changelings can't be stimmed, or have ling speed.
|
i hate that they at least didnt lower the price of pre-igniter i mean 150/150 mins/gas for 5 damage to just light units....it should be a 100/50 upgrade or something for that. Not to mention if Mech wasn't playable before vs protoss it definitely isn't now because zealots will now live forever as they charge into your tanks killing everything.
Yeah sure mech was never used competitively but now even master league and lower will get completely stomped going mech.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
