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On June 19 2012 04:34 XXXSmOke wrote:
New toss here switching from Master T to toss.
Quick question on TvP, when is a good time to take my third? I am going for a normal dual forge collsi/gateway build, and Ive been trying to take a relative quick third but in the mid game that's where Terran shines. What kind of ups/collsi am I looking at to have to take a third in this MU?
When Terran takes 3rd or when some significant tech investment pays off for you.
Colossi and 2 forges is alot so you wanna get 2 colossi or 1 colossus and at least 1 upgrade to finish before taking 3rd.
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On June 19 2012 21:24 Smancer wrote:
Is it viable to do a FEE into double stargate? If I am all-ining off two bases with double stargates, how many extra gates can I throw down along with it? When do I put down the gates? Anyone have a detailed build?
Edit... Versus Zerg.
Generally, you can afford constant production of about one boosted Void Ray and about one Stalker, off of 2 geysers. So figure a pair of Void Rays that you're constantly boosting, alongside a small amount of other gas usage, can work off of 2 bases with 4 geysers. If you're doing Phoenixes, they take a bit more of your gas per minute than Voids, since their production is faster. Carriers, on the other hand, build so slowly that they take less gas per minute and allow you to afford other stuff while running 2 stargates. I have no idea how many additional gates you can add alongside carriers, but I know alongside double SG Voids you can fit around 4 or 5 with mostly zealot focus. It depends on your mineral saturation and when you decide to cut probes, which also depends on how much chrono you want to bank for your Stargate production.
There's a long thread for Skytoss in PvZ, which you can find here. It focuses more on taking a third and playing defensively with a Mothership for defensive Recalls (snipe a base with Voids and warp home; rinse and repeat). However, I would take everything from that thread with a giant grain of salt--moreso than the usual skepticism required for a TL strategy thread. People in that thread seeem to be more interested in bragging and flaming than actually getting down to business and discussing facts and tactics.
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How should I make cannons against a T who's going for a pretty typical MMMVG composition. In my last game on cloud kingdom, I made 2 in my main as I took my third, then a few more to the furthest side of my 3rd when it got up, and a few more (1 in the nat, 1 more in the main, 1 more at my third) when I pushed with 3/3, max, colossus, templars etc. Is this too many, is the timing right? Also, I got a pretty good scout of his main and saw that he was going for his 5 rax before his factory, so I knew that medivacs wouldn't be around until at least 10 minutes. But what are common timings for medivacs to pop. Sorry to ask such general questions, but I haven't had much time to play lately, so I've lost a lot of game sense.
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A Factory takes a minute to build. A Starport takes another 50 seconds (so does the reactor, but you do that simultaneously so it doesn't affect the timing). Swapping the add-ons takes a couple of seconds and building a medivac takes 42 seconds. Then it's about another minute or less for the dropships to load up and actually get to your base, depending on the route they take for drops. In total, from the start of the factory to the drop in your base, it's about 3 and a half minutes (give or take) elapsed time. So when you scout the factory/starport, you can figure out how much sand is left in the hourglass, so to speak. Also, you can figure that another pair of medivacs is going to pop out every 42-50 seconds (depending on when the terran cuts medivac production temporarily based on a macro slip or needing to dump it into an upgrade or whatever).
Personally, I like cannoning about when I take my third, too. It's a point in time when I have the extra minerals because most everything costs gas and that resource tends to gradually well up. For Cloud Kingdom and some other maps, you can do pretty well by cannoning the edges of your natural and your main in the corner, because dropships get hit by the cannons as they fly around the edge of those bases. On some other maps like Metropolis, they can fly stuff around in space and you need more cannons to cover your base. Or, you can do what I do as I take my third on those kinds of maps and build a Stargate, make a Phoenix or two, and patrol them out in that space area to cover for drops. Building a Stargate and 2 Phoenixes costs 450 minerals/350 gas/2 supply, but if that tech kills even one medivac with 8 marines, it evens out 500/100/10 from the Terran...and for late-late game having Stargate tech started isn't exactly a bad thing.
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On June 20 2012 12:29 ineversmile wrote:
A Factory takes a minute to build. A Starport takes another 50 seconds (so does the reactor, but you do that simultaneously so it doesn't affect the timing). Swapping the add-ons takes a couple of seconds and building a medivac takes 42 seconds. Then it's about another minute or less for the dropships to load up and actually get to your base, depending on the route they take for drops. In total, from the start of the factory to the drop in your base, it's about 3 and a half minutes (give or take) elapsed time. So when you scout the factory/starport, you can figure out how much sand is left in the hourglass, so to speak. Also, you can figure that another pair of medivacs is going to pop out every 42-50 seconds (depending on when the terran cuts medivac production temporarily based on a macro slip or needing to dump it into an upgrade or whatever).
Personally, I like cannoning about when I take my third, too. It's a point in time when I have the extra minerals because most everything costs gas and that resource tends to gradually well up. For Cloud Kingdom and some other maps, you can do pretty well by cannoning the edges of your natural and your main in the corner, because dropships get hit by the cannons as they fly around the edge of those bases. On some other maps like Metropolis, they can fly stuff around in space and you need more cannons to cover your base. Or, you can do what I do as I take my third on those kinds of maps and build a Stargate, make a Phoenix or two, and patrol them out in that space area to cover for drops. Building a Stargate and 2 Phoenixes costs 450 minerals/350 gas/2 supply, but if that tech kills even one medivac with 8 marines, it evens out 500/100/10 from the Terran...and for late-late game having Stargate tech started isn't exactly a bad thing.
the stargate is definitely not worth it... at that stage 1 ht per base and zealot warpin/patroling blinkstalkers is more than enough to defend drops with good control
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hi, I'm a gold league player and having real troubles with my mechanics and what/when to produce. Please could someone look at this replay (PvT) and let me know what I should have done?
I think I played well initially, I poked his ramp and saw 2 bunkers so I withdrew, set up an expansion and teched to collosi. However I died to his timing push, I stupidly lost my 1 colossus by not having it on a control group but I don't think it would have helped.
Please help me understand what I should have done when I poked his ramp, what I should have built, If I should have waited to get upgrades if I should have stayed with gateway units or built more gateways. I'm at my wits end after a great streak and on the verge of getting promoted to plat I have plummeted and now I'm losing to silver leaguers.
Be brutal.
Thanks in advance.
http://drop.sc/200946
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On June 20 2012 12:38 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 12:29 ineversmile wrote:
A Factory takes a minute to build. A Starport takes another 50 seconds (so does the reactor, but you do that simultaneously so it doesn't affect the timing). Swapping the add-ons takes a couple of seconds and building a medivac takes 42 seconds. Then it's about another minute or less for the dropships to load up and actually get to your base, depending on the route they take for drops. In total, from the start of the factory to the drop in your base, it's about 3 and a half minutes (give or take) elapsed time. So when you scout the factory/starport, you can figure out how much sand is left in the hourglass, so to speak. Also, you can figure that another pair of medivacs is going to pop out every 42-50 seconds (depending on when the terran cuts medivac production temporarily based on a macro slip or needing to dump it into an upgrade or whatever).
Personally, I like cannoning about when I take my third, too. It's a point in time when I have the extra minerals because most everything costs gas and that resource tends to gradually well up. For Cloud Kingdom and some other maps, you can do pretty well by cannoning the edges of your natural and your main in the corner, because dropships get hit by the cannons as they fly around the edge of those bases. On some other maps like Metropolis, they can fly stuff around in space and you need more cannons to cover your base. Or, you can do what I do as I take my third on those kinds of maps and build a Stargate, make a Phoenix or two, and patrol them out in that space area to cover for drops. Building a Stargate and 2 Phoenixes costs 450 minerals/350 gas/2 supply, but if that tech kills even one medivac with 8 marines, it evens out 500/100/10 from the Terran...and for late-late game having Stargate tech started isn't exactly a bad thing. the stargate is definitely not worth it... at that stage 1 ht per base and zealot warpin/patroling blinkstalkers is more than enough to defend drops with good control
At MLG and GSL protoss players constantly lose to multiprong aggression at the exact same timing: when Medivacs are out and the Protoss is trying to take a third. So if players at that level (Code A) have that kind of serious trouble, you probably should rethink your argument.
I would rather invest 450 minerals and 2 minutes into a pair of Phoenixes than lose an entire base or a dozen probes because it's extremely difficult for even pros to defend against more mobile armies, on three fronts, on maps with a lot of air space behind bases. The only thing I'm doing is, instead of getting a couple more observers (beyond 2-3ish), getting actual fighting air units. It's more expensive, but it has the potential to catch medivacs for free without even being microed and even killing one medivac will almost pay for the entire thing. I wouldn't do it on Cloud Kingdom where the dropship can just turn around and land instantly, but on Daybreak the Medivac is basically screwed once it finds the Phoenix on patrol out in the middle of deep space. You see this kind of thing happen with Vikings all the time in TvT where someone sends in a Banshee or a drop and a Viking is on patrol, and the guy who made the viking looks like a genius for doing it. But somehow it's taboo to do this in PvT when you're going to 3 bases and you can afford to diverge into another tech path...I don't get it.
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I hope anyone can take a look at this replay and give me some tips. Its platinum league and facing an almost 200 roach zerg at 12 min mark. I scouted throughout the match that he was going for a 3 base push, thats what my mind was thinking all the time so i was prepared for it. I spent all my money and chrono but i could not hold this.
Key moments in replay: 12:31. He is at 184 supply vs me at 106 supply. I am at 75 minerals spending like crazy and he is at 625. We are similar in workers btw but he is over double my army supply.
So even though i felt i was doing everything just perfect it obviously wasnt. What should i have done ? Pushed early ? Gone 2 robo and pumped immortals .... its the only two solutions i can think of.
Replay: http://replayfu.com/download/t8FNgj
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does anyone think in pvt a fast colossus into colossus+phoenix(with range)+zealots could be viable?
the phoenixes should be able to gun down vikings without being killed by marines due to the range upgrade.(also opens the option for a mothership followup with the air-dominance!)
the zealots are a mineral dump and ideal blockers.
upgradewise, ground and air attack upgrades would go well with this composition and only require one forge.
Also without the need for stalkers to defend the colossi or drops and no need for early HTs since your AoE is counter-proof there's plenty of gas for massive phoenix production and it should take only slightly more than a handful of colossi to annhilate any number of marine/marauder.
obviously complete theorycrafting, but i can't find anything on the topic since the phoenix range upgrade patch and it sounds interesting enough to me :/
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http://drop.sc/200987
is this a viable way to combat a hatch/evo block? Basically I made what ended up being a macro nexus, it slowed me down a little bit but the extra chrono/supply/probe production is good. If you are going into a macro game and not a sharp timing do you think this is worth it?
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 21 2012 00:47 Fogetaboudit wrote:http://drop.sc/200987is this a viable way to combat a hatch/evo block? Basically I made what ended up being a macro nexus, it slowed me down a little bit but the extra chrono/supply/probe production is good. If you are going into a macro game and not a sharp timing do you think this is worth it?
Off the top of my head, no because you can reach full 2base saturation really fast with ffe anyway, but i'm not sure. I think if you just get a cannon and maybe gateway down you are fine because it's a pretty big investment for the zerg anyway.
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On June 20 2012 22:44 MDJuggernaut wrote:hi, I'm a gold league player and having real troubles with my mechanics and what/when to produce. Please could someone look at this replay (PvT) and let me know what I should have done? I think I played well initially, I poked his ramp and saw 2 bunkers so I withdrew, set up an expansion and teched to collosi. However I died to his timing push, I stupidly lost my 1 colossus by not having it on a control group but I don't think it would have helped. Please help me understand what I should have done when I poked his ramp, what I should have built, If I should have waited to get upgrades if I should have stayed with gateway units or built more gateways. I'm at my wits end after a great streak and on the verge of getting promoted to plat I have plummeted and now I'm losing to silver leaguers. Be brutal. Thanks in advance. http://drop.sc/200946
Hey there, I've watched the rep, and here are my notes:
1. There is no close spawn on shakuras.
2. You saw him going for a gasless FE an you could have get your Nexi earlier.
3. And again, you knew he's going for gasless FE, but you threw down additional gateway and went for a 3 gate pressure.
- You lost a sentry while walking up the ramp.
ALWAYS select 1 zelot and send it first, then back and go up ramp with Guardian shield UP.
4. So you wanted to do some pressure, but failed, insted now you go for a greedy tech play, you get forge, robobay, and another gateway. It would be okay, but there were no warp-ins between 7:00 - 8:50, almost 2 minutes.
5. Your observer was sent to T's base, but you didn't even check it, it saw nothing of what terran have.
6. You leave secon observer over your army, why? Terrans don't have DT's - move it over to your entrance ramp.
And most important - You had absolutely no idea what terran was doing, basically you saw his army for the first time only when he was in your face, don't know why he falled back, he could've take you out right there.
As your colossi comes out you had the advantage, you only needed to turtle and split his force with FF.
Instead you move-click your foce into his.
Also at the same time you research Thermal lance, insted of getting another colossi.
TL;DR - You need to scout terran. You need map presense.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300500
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On June 20 2012 23:13 Avean wrote:I hope anyone can take a look at this replay and give me some tips. Its platinum league and facing an almost 200 roach zerg at 12 min mark. I scouted throughout the match that he was going for a 3 base push, thats what my mind was thinking all the time so i was prepared for it. I spent all my money and chrono but i could not hold this. Key moments in replay: 12:31. He is at 184 supply vs me at 106 supply. I am at 75 minerals spending like crazy and he is at 625. We are similar in workers btw but he is over double my army supply. So even though i felt i was doing everything just perfect it obviously wasnt. What should i have done ? Pushed early ? Gone 2 robo and pumped immortals .... its the only two solutions i can think of. Replay: http://replayfu.com/download/t8FNgj
Hey hey.
Here are some notes.
- You saw Zerg going for 14 pool, but you still went Forge-Gate-Nexi.
You actually can go safely Nexus first against 14 pool.
- You got 4 gas Up, but really had only gates.
- Missed warp-ins.
- Also there was no pressure applied to zerg, playing passively against stephano-style can be really bad for you.
- It seemed like you weren't following any kind of build, just build units, but had no plan on what to do with them.
- You got 7 gate sentry-immortal, but it was late. The seven gate sentry-immortal allin should hit at around 10:00
- Messed up FF, after clearing the lings, forcefields went down, roaches streamed in, you cut them in half, but there are already all around you.
TL;DR
Not pressuring the zerg is bad for you.
See any guide dealing with stephano-style roaches.
gg gl
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On June 21 2012 00:08 uLysSeS1 wrote:
does anyone think in pvt a fast colossus into colossus+phoenix(with range)+zealots could be viable?
the phoenixes should be able to gun down vikings without being killed by marines due to the range upgrade.(also opens the option for a mothership followup with the air-dominance!)
the zealots are a mineral dump and ideal blockers.
upgradewise, ground and air attack upgrades would go well with this composition and only require one forge.
Also without the need for stalkers to defend the colossi or drops and no need for early HTs since your AoE is counter-proof there's plenty of gas for massive phoenix production and it should take only slightly more than a handful of colossi to annhilate any number of marine/marauder.
obviously complete theorycrafting, but i can't find anything on the topic since the phoenix range upgrade patch and it sounds interesting enough to me :/
This is what I like to do on Daybreak, to an extent. I prefer to go for Colossus tech before Twilight to survive the stim timings/medivac timings, and then I get a hanful of Phoenix to patrol for drops and to force the terran into fighting me on the ground in a straight-up fight. Colossi happen to be really strong on that map because it has all kinds of hallways and places to set up favorable engagements, but that also lends the map towards favoring Vikings because they can float over the negative space and take potshots at my Colossi. Blink is good to help against this, but not so much when the Vikings are over terrain--kind of like how it's hard to hit Brood Lords in PvZ when they're over that terrain between your natural and your third. But having air units out means I can fight an air battle or at least contest it, which protects my Colossi and in turn helps me exert map dominance for army-to-army situations. It also means that, if I win an engagement, the terran is going to lose a lot more stuff than he normaly would because I have a bunch of Phoenixes that are going to pick off fleeing units. It's not like blink stalkers where you get one shot to blink forward and pick off stuff before the stimmed guys get out out of there--Phoenixes outrun anything.
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On June 20 2012 23:13 Avean wrote:I hope anyone can take a look at this replay and give me some tips. Its platinum league and facing an almost 200 roach zerg at 12 min mark. I scouted throughout the match that he was going for a 3 base push, thats what my mind was thinking all the time so i was prepared for it. I spent all my money and chrono but i could not hold this. Key moments in replay: 12:31. He is at 184 supply vs me at 106 supply. I am at 75 minerals spending like crazy and he is at 625. We are similar in workers btw but he is over double my army supply. So even though i felt i was doing everything just perfect it obviously wasnt. What should i have done ? Pushed early ? Gone 2 robo and pumped immortals .... its the only two solutions i can think of. Replay: http://replayfu.com/download/t8FNgj
First, I think you're either underestimating your opponent's economy, or you're overestimating your own. When you state "We are similar in workers", that's technically correct... but only at 12:31 (directly after he's thrown down six spores btw).
Minute 7.00: 29 probes/37 drones
Minute 8.00: 33 probes/50 drones (You have 3 probes mining minerals at your expansion... he has 13 at his third!)
Minute 9.00: 37 probes/64 drones
To put it bluntly, he has twice your income for a good part of that game.
Secondly, you play very passively, which allows your opponent to get away with a fairly greedy style. You delay your expansion for a quicker wall-off, even though his pool is late, which gives him a headstart on his double expansion. Until approximately the 9th minute, he has exactly four zerglings - all his larvae go into drones... and rightfully so, since he's under no pressure at all: He has a good view of your front and knows that you are fully walled in, he has a zergling at your third, and another one at your watchtower; if that doesn't put him in his comfort zone, I don't know what will.
These are, in my opinon, the major issues here. If I were to give advice for future games, I'd ask you to keep an eye on your probe production and to try to apply (or at least fake) some pressure against a zerg opponent.
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On June 21 2012 01:11 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 22:44 MDJuggernaut wrote:hi, I'm a gold league player and having real troubles with my mechanics and what/when to produce. Please could someone look at this replay (PvT) and let me know what I should have done? I think I played well initially, I poked his ramp and saw 2 bunkers so I withdrew, set up an expansion and teched to collosi. However I died to his timing push, I stupidly lost my 1 colossus by not having it on a control group but I don't think it would have helped. Please help me understand what I should have done when I poked his ramp, what I should have built, If I should have waited to get upgrades if I should have stayed with gateway units or built more gateways. I'm at my wits end after a great streak and on the verge of getting promoted to plat I have plummeted and now I'm losing to silver leaguers. Be brutal. Thanks in advance. http://drop.sc/200946 Hey there, I've watched the rep, and here are my notes: 1. There is no close spawn on shakuras. 2. You saw him going for a gasless FE an you could have get your Nexi earlier. 3. And again, you knew he's going for gasless FE, but you threw down additional gateway and went for a 3 gate pressure. - You lost a sentry while walking up the ramp. ALWAYS select 1 zelot and send it first, then back and go up ramp with Guardian shield UP. 4. So you wanted to do some pressure, but failed, insted now you go for a greedy tech play, you get forge, robobay, and another gateway. It would be okay, but there were no warp-ins between 7:00 - 8:50, almost 2 minutes. 5. Your observer was sent to T's base, but you didn't even check it, it saw nothing of what terran have. 6. You leave secon observer over your army, why? Terrans don't have DT's - move it over to your entrance ramp. And most important - You had absolutely no idea what terran was doing, basically you saw his army for the first time only when he was in your face, don't know why he falled back, he could've take you out right there. As your colossi comes out you had the advantage, you only needed to turtle and split his force with FF. Instead you move-click your foce into his. Also at the same time you research Thermal lance, insted of getting another colossi. TL;DR - You need to scout terran. You need map presense. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300500
Thanks for the info, I guess I just played sloppy. Much appreciated!
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Anyone who knows how to wall of properly on Condemned Ridge? Thats a wiiiide ramp...
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On June 21 2012 02:30 NVRLand wrote:
Anyone who knows how to wall of properly on Condemned Ridge? Thats a wiiiide ramp...
I don't wall-off the ramp, rather, I do this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UGGl5.png)
I'll add a cannon in the mineral line if I have to later on.
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After some tests, you can wall it with gateway, forge, cybernetics core, a zealot, and a pylon (in order starting from your main and going away from it). Put the pylon and the zealot next to each other to minimize forcefields in case of a baneling bust.
Or you could try a wall from the ramp to the nexus.
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EPT
