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On February 21 2012 17:25 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 15:18 ThePianoDentist wrote:On February 21 2012 04:30 Sated wrote:
If you ignore the balance whining, that's a pretty accurate description of what happened. I didn't save the replay. Besides, it's more a general question than a game-specific question. Most replay analysis is "build more probes d00d", which isn't really helpful when I want advice on how to approach PvZ on that map knowing that this can happen.
As I say, I usually avoid that map like the plague, so I'm far from used to it. so you're saying you don't bother to get any form of scouting whatsoever and then it's bullshit that he can go for a specific unit composition without you realising it? why don't you try 5 gate robo pressure into expand instead...or get hallucination....or do some stargate play...just anything where you are not playing blind No, that's not what I'm saying. That implies that I'm not trying to scout. I am trying to scout, but not every Zerg is going to allow your Probes to get anywhere near their base. I guess what I'm saying is that it's hard to scout if the Zerg is active with their Zerglings, it's not like I'm purposefully playing blind. Throwing down a Robo early seems like a waste if they're going Mutalisks, but an earlier Observer could be an answer. At least I would know what's up. Stargate play is possibly another option, but I'm not particularly used to early Stargate plays. Phoenixes would give me a better way to scout and it is possible to deny a fast third with a Void-Ray +1 Zealot timing (should they attempt to get a fast third), so it would be a good style to learn. Anyway, this is why I was asking what people thought would be a better way to play the match-up, because I usually open with Gateway pressure and look to take a fast third, and that isn't going to work against this mass spine-crawler style... so I wanted people's opinions on the alternative options. Because I'm not familiar with them.
I was suggesting you maybe play a style with a method of scouting that lets you get a scout off almost always.
also you need a robo versus mutalisks at some point. early robo is fine versus mutalisks. defending mutas is a piece of cake with enough observers to always know where the muta ball is. plus if they go mass mass muta if theyre clever theyll mass spines as well for the inevitable base trade...where immortals are very very handy. as well as needing a warp prism for when you move out as it'll be almost impossible to get proxy pylons out against muta players.
or you could just sacrifice some of your pressure for a twilight council as you move out in case he goes mutas. hard to tell without seeing replays but your PvZ style does sound a bit risky and sketchy, it's more standard to get a robo and/or twilight before third because playing pure gateway versus hydralisks or some infestor ling type stuff is going to be quite nasty and I would imagine good zergs would punish and crush your fast expansion.
as an example from my point of view, it seems even if the zerg is doing standard 3 base roach/ling to start with...if he holds off your pressure and then counters are you going to be able to hold that third? it just seems like playing against better zergs you might as well just 6 gate all-in rather than doing a weaker attack with no tech that leaves you very vulnerable to counters if you don't crush him.
and yes I know it probably works well in diamond but that will mainly be down to zergs not being good enough to notice the timing window and exploit it rather than it being a great build. I may be wrong but that is just how I see it
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On February 21 2012 14:39 BFPinkerton wrote:
Recently my zerg practice buddy has been doing a build that has me stumped, I believe he said he copied it from LiquidSheth. He turtles on two base with mass upgraded lings and infestors, then he pushes out and attacks my third while taking a third a fourth at about the same time.
My usual style is to FFE into a quick third, unfortunately it's near impossible to take a third against mass lings unless you have the units to do it by force. Even then, a massling/ infested terran attack hurts a lot. Anyway, basically he goes up to brod lords really quickly and I have to spend so much money trying to expand that when his broodlord curropter infestor ling army comes I either lose or trade and then he attacks again and I lose.
Does anybody have experience playing against this type of style? Any help would be appreciated, replys can be added if need be.
with neural parasite nerf, just a standard sentry, stalker colossus deathball is very cost efficient against this style. I like to go double robo against it, just try and keep an eye on his tech and try and end the game before broodlords. if he is teching super-fast to broods then there should be a nice timing window to exploit. once brood are out if you missed the window its hard but doable. archon toilet can beat broods and also exploiting immobility of broodlords...try not to engage just try and walk round army to kill his outer expansions etc
+1 zealots destroy mass lings, so if you have that upgrade and a few gateways I don't think a fast third should be too much trouble. just keep zealots by morphing third but remember to wall in natural with another zealot against run-bys. and yes replays would help. depends how fast you mean by 'fast third'
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On February 21 2012 22:00 ARick wrote:
Hi i"m a silver protoss and i have no idea what to do versus zerg.If i forge fast expand they double expand and he has double the army of me.I srsly have no idea what to do versus zerg mainly cuz i almost never meet them on ladder.Anyone has some tips or tricks to play versus zerg?
Be a bit aggressive, don't just sit back in your base. If the zerg wants to expand, it means he will have to spend money on a hatchery, and larvae/money on additional drones to be able to mine from that third base. This means he will have to cut down on spending resources on his army.
One of the options is to get a relatively fast stargate and a void ray with a phoenix. He will most likely not have invested in hydralisks so you can put pressure on his third base and maybe kill it. If he defends with queens you can use your phoenix to lift it and kill it off with your voidray, further damaging his economy.
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On February 22 2012 00:07 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 22:36 ThePianoDentist wrote:On February 21 2012 17:25 Sated wrote:On February 21 2012 15:18 ThePianoDentist wrote:On February 21 2012 04:30 Sated wrote:
If you ignore the balance whining, that's a pretty accurate description of what happened. I didn't save the replay. Besides, it's more a general question than a game-specific question. Most replay analysis is "build more probes d00d", which isn't really helpful when I want advice on how to approach PvZ on that map knowing that this can happen.
As I say, I usually avoid that map like the plague, so I'm far from used to it. so you're saying you don't bother to get any form of scouting whatsoever and then it's bullshit that he can go for a specific unit composition without you realising it? why don't you try 5 gate robo pressure into expand instead...or get hallucination....or do some stargate play...just anything where you are not playing blind No, that's not what I'm saying. That implies that I'm not trying to scout. I am trying to scout, but not every Zerg is going to allow your Probes to get anywhere near their base. I guess what I'm saying is that it's hard to scout if the Zerg is active with their Zerglings, it's not like I'm purposefully playing blind. Throwing down a Robo early seems like a waste if they're going Mutalisks, but an earlier Observer could be an answer. At least I would know what's up. Stargate play is possibly another option, but I'm not particularly used to early Stargate plays. Phoenixes would give me a better way to scout and it is possible to deny a fast third with a Void-Ray +1 Zealot timing (should they attempt to get a fast third), so it would be a good style to learn. Anyway, this is why I was asking what people thought would be a better way to play the match-up, because I usually open with Gateway pressure and look to take a fast third, and that isn't going to work against this mass spine-crawler style... so I wanted people's opinions on the alternative options. Because I'm not familiar with them. I was suggesting you maybe play a style with a method of scouting that lets you get a scout off almost always. also you need a robo versus mutalisks at some point. early robo is fine versus mutalisks. defending mutas is a piece of cake with enough observers to always know where the muta ball is. plus if they go mass mass muta if theyre clever theyll mass spines as well for the inevitable base trade...where immortals are very very handy. as well as needing a warp prism for when you move out as it'll be almost impossible to get proxy pylons out against muta players. or you could just sacrifice some of your pressure for a twilight council as you move out in case he goes mutas. hard to tell without seeing replays but your PvZ style does sound a bit risky and sketchy, it's more standard to get a robo and/or twilight before third because playing pure gateway versus hydralisks or some infestor ling type stuff is going to be quite nasty and I would imagine good zergs would punish and crush your fast expansion. as an example from my point of view, it seems even if the zerg is doing standard 3 base roach/ling to start with...if he holds off your pressure and then counters are you going to be able to hold that third? it just seems like playing against better zergs you might as well just 6 gate all-in rather than doing a weaker attack with no tech that leaves you very vulnerable to counters if you don't crush him. and yes I know it probably works well in diamond but that will mainly be down to zergs not being good enough to notice the timing window and exploit it rather than it being a great build. I may be wrong but that is just how I see it I'd never thought about early Robo-tech like that because it's unusual for me to get more than a couple of Observers when I'm up against a Zerg opponent. Having more eyes out on the map would definitely be useful against Mutalisk styles and being ready to pump out Immortals if they're not going for air-units is probably a good thing. I mean, I've heard that Immortals are pretty good against ground units.I guess you'd throw down the Robo after the Cybernetics Core finishes and throw down the Twilight Council so that it finishes in line with +1 Attack if you wanted to play that kind of style? 6gate all-ins are definitely strong, especially if the Zerg tries to take a fast third and tech-up to Mutalisks, but I'm trying not to use them as often. I'm not even sure a 6gate could bust through the sheer number of Spine Crawlers the style I described throws down... but I suppose it is possible given how quickly +1 Zealots kill things.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970 here is an example of a very flexible PvZ opening and general style. I think with this (correct me if I'm wrong), you add your extra 3 gateways before robo or any other tech. this allows you to still put some pressure on with a 4 zealot warp in (hopefully before they have roaches out) getting robo straight away after cyber core isnt too necessary, especially if you were to follow the style of this build a super fast obs scout isnt going to change your plans too soon as the style is so flexible.
You can still get a relatively early third with this build off of 4/5 gates, robo and twilight council but it just lets you react tech wise quicker to what the zergs doing. if he's spamming roaches you can pump immortals, if muta you can start blink, skimping on detection?....make a dark shrine. see hydras, robo support bay, early twilight allows your upgrades to go unhindered. you may have less pure easy macro wins compared to your style due to getting the two tech structures before third base and not applying too much pressure to the zerg, but you're certainly not behind so it just requires better forcefields and engagements but playing this way you should never lose because the zerg did x strategy, you should only lose to being outplayed.
also with regards to the 6 gate I agree that I don't think it would work too well against a spine turtling 2 base zerg. I was just saying it seems your style, although hard to tell from not seeing replays, cuts tech like a 6 gate, but isn't as powerful. I know 6 gate cuts economy as well and you don't but that surely leaves you very vulnerable in the stage of the game where you have cut tech to focus on army and economy
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Italy12246 Posts
If i am up against a 111, and his push is really, really delayed (at my nat at 11-12 minutes rather than 9-10), should i start teching up/making more probes when i know he is delaying his push with a stalker or probe scout, or should one just keep pumping units? I am thinking as a general rule, "if he doesn't push by 11 ish minutes throw down a third gas and a robo bay, while adding 3 more probes" or something along those lines, does it make sense?
The annoying thing about 111 is that in many games it feels like you could have gotten colossus and range up in time, while other times they are so eager to kill you that you would just die if you tried, and it's impossible to know which one it is if you haven't played against the same guy before.
Also, what is the best response to 2base-type of allins, either marine/tank/banshee or marine/thor/banshee? In the first case, phoenixes feel almost mandatory because by the time he attacks he will have a crapton of banshees and stalkers end up not being effective, but at the same time you don't want to end up with phoenixes against thors...any tips or replays?
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In PvZ I have been doing a 4 gate zealot +1 timing that I like really well (unless they find both my probes, but I'm working on that), now the problem is I have no idea when to take a third when I either a) kill his third or b) fail to kill third. If I fail to kill the third the zerg usually follows up with roach spam, and I have no idea when it is safe to take a third. A lot of games I take it to fast with too few immortals and stalkers and end up losing all my sentries. Other times I wait to long and the zerg gets way ahead of me in economy. Advice?
Also, I really like transitioning into 2 robo for immortals, colosi, and warp prisms plus extra observers but does it make sense to do this before I have a third up (obviously if I had two robos on two base I would mainly be pumping immortals)?
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What is the correct response vs. a 1 base stim & medivac terran?
I scouted 2 rax (with reactor on first) so went gate-robo-gate into nexus.
I then saw his push just as my nexus was finishing and cancelled it, because he had medivac and a big army. What would be the correct response?
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Hi guys ;-)
I got a huge problem in PvZ with the third base, so i ask u guys whats the best build which allow a safe third base, and do i have to push while taking it or just wait and defend ? Thanks
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Hello once again my fellow Protoss,
The most recent patch buffed the range of the phoenix by 2 and I am wondering will this affect pvp at all mainly phoenix vs phoenix play? Will it be worth it to get a fleet beacon if my opponent goes phoenix play? Thank you for reading this.
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On February 22 2012 08:09 Serge89 wrote:
Hi guys ;-)
I got a huge problem in PvZ with the third base, so i ask u guys whats the best build which allow a safe third base, and do i have to push while taking it or just wait and defend ? Thanks
Depends on the map and what build the zerg is doing.
If zerg going roach, then you need colossus (3 or so). If zerg going muta, you need blink and templar.
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Don't be apologetic, dude. I think you may be better served making it into a proper thread, though? Maybe G/D or something like that? I'm not too clear on the thread posting guidelines etc. Discussion on your post may flood the thread and mean other posts requesting assistance are missed. So, start up a thread, mate.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 22 2012 09:31 Sated wrote:
You're probably right, but I don't really feel right posting a new thread when I don't really have that many decent replays yet. What I have is more a "proof of concept" than solid evidence. Wouldn't wanna clog up this thread with it, though, so maybe I'll post it as a blog?
It's not economical enough as a standard build. You compare it to MC's 1 gate fe, but that is already a very non-greedy build.
The reason people go 2 gate robo on maps like crossfire/dual sight is the ability to find out exactly what your opponent is doing and the ability to do a 2 base immortal allin.
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Hey sated, nice post about that build. I'm really curious about the original, the one from Honor. Did he uses 1 or 2 gases? If he went for 2, did he use heavy sentry or just a bunch? Thx in advance.
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I have a question to top P's here, i'm just high master in na and suck at pvz.
I have some months of happiness with the 4g +1 zealot pressure variations (prism, void, dts) and now even the z's of my mediocre level are figuring out the roach timming to deal with those. The real problem is when you did no real damage (good z's will be prepared to the famous pressure), Z is on 3 bases with +65 drones, and you are in 2 with less army than them, AND their spire is about to pop out. My question is:
Aganist a Z that knows how to stop +1 pressure, whats the best follow up to a eco +1 pressure? Or is now even worth it to make the zealot pressure or just stargate Genius style?
I even started to faking +1 pressure (fast +1 close to an ovy, 3 gates close to an ovy, 2 zealot map scouting and so), and find out that some z's kinda weakened their "anti-timmings" defenses so now i'm going again for a variation of timmings in the match ups, but i miss the feeling of playing a macro game toe to toe with Z :´(
Any top master/gm sugestion?
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EPT
