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Italy12248 Posts
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low diamond (now should be high plat) Zerg here. Been off racing as Toss for 2 weeks on my friend's account and about to get to plat soon.
I managed to beat my friend who is a mid diamond zerg with a slightly delayed 7 gate +2 chargelot archon all-in. (because I didn't know the exact build order)
Since I myself always have trouble with this unit composition, I am wondering what is the main reason on why it isn't more popular in comparison to other type of all-ins.
It pretty much beat roach ling style pretty easily since chargelot cannot be kited completely and archons are just so cost efficient. Not to mention if I were to fake a normal gateway all-in, I could have some sentries for the 1st push.
And also, I wonder how do you get a third when you do a FFE. What's the key difference between a 2 base all-in versus a macro toss? I have tried to get a third earlier but if the zerg was preparing for a 2 base all-in, they would have a huge army already and deny my expo with ease.
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On February 21 2012 02:29 ETisME wrote:
low diamond (now should be high plat) Zerg here. Been off racing as Toss for 2 weeks on my friend's account and about to get to plat soon.
I managed to beat my friend who is a mid diamond zerg with a slightly delayed 7 gate +2 chargelot archon all-in. (because I didn't know the exact build order)
Since I myself always have trouble with this unit composition, I am wondering what is the main reason on why it isn't more popular in comparison to other type of all-ins.
It pretty much beat roach ling style pretty easily since chargelot cannot be kited completely and archons are just so cost efficient. Not to mention if I were to fake a normal gateway all-in, I could have some sentries for the 1st push.
And also, I wonder how do you get a third when you do a FFE. What's the key difference between a 2 base all-in versus a macro toss? I have tried to get a third earlier but if the zerg was preparing for a 2 base all-in, they would have a huge army already and deny my expo with ease.
Chargelot Archon is a unit comp that is good up until zerg hits a critical number of roaches at which point it becomes terrible
Protoss third timings are usually dependant on zerg third timings, You can take a third really fast behind some light pressure, and you can take a third behing 6-7 gateways, if your going this route the only real difference between taking a third and going all-in is that your not cutting probes and your not cutting tech, your just using the gates as prodcution to fall back on.
If you see a zerg staying on 2 base, it is general protoss law to delay your third until you get a scout off as for what the zerg is up to. 2 Base Protoss is generally in a better position than 2 base zerg so as long as you defend any all-ins aggression and take your third when you feel safe, you should end up ahead.
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United States8477 Posts
On February 21 2012 03:43 Sated wrote:
PvZ. Tal'Darim Altar. Zerg goes for 15 Hatch and you decide to do a FFE -> 5gate pressure before trying to take a relatively fast third. The Zerg is good with their Zerglings so you can't scout until you go ahead with your pressure, which makes me wonder why Zerg's moan about having to scout with Overlords because I would kill for Pylons that could fly into the opponent's base. You get to the Zerg's base and they've made 7 Spine-Crawlers at their front the moment you left your base. They finish just as you get there because the map is so retardedly huge. There is absolutely no way you can pressure them even though you know they have no army, you now also know that they're going Mutalisks. You go back home and start researching Blink, giving up on the third base because you know you won't be able to hold it until Blink is done (and even then it's a stretch). Frankly, it's too late, you can't do anything about it. Stalkers are trash because Blink isn't done yet and - guess what - 10+ Mutalisks snipe the Twilight Council before Stalkers can move from defending the mineral line to defending the one upgrade that gives them half a chance of being useful.
What the hell are you supposed to do?
On the ladder I have this map veto'd for precisely this reason, it's imbalanced trash when the Zerg has half a brain and doesn't bother to get a fast third/Roaches. Unfortunately, tournaments still use it, so I occasionally have to play on it. Is it a case that you have to play defensively on this map and get Blink/Storm etc. before even thinking about moving out? Taking anything that even looks like a third seems impossible given how open the third is and given how hard it is to get between the third and the main to defend against Mutalisks.
Post a replay, dear.
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On February 18 2012 15:26 whistle wrote:Hi protoss friends. I just got mindfucked. Low/mid master PvP on Tal Darim. I suck it up and go for a 4 gate because hell, it's TDA. I forget about my probe for a while but after it dies ~5:30 I see a pylon by his natural so I assume he's gonna expand with a ton of cannon support. After I warp in my first round of stalkers I put down a nexus of my own; upon watching the replay our expansion timings are roughly the same. I figure that as long as I can deny scouting of my nexus for a while he'll waste some money on cannons so at worst I end up on even economic footing with him. This part of the game is all groovy. I decide to go for colossus because they are nice a-move friendly units and I have such a big econ. Obs gets to his base and sees double stargate so I cancel the robotics bay and decide to make a lot of blink stalkers since they shoot up. Eventually I die to phoenix/void ray/zealot. I am floating about 20 stalkers of resources at the end because I haven't played in two weeks and I'm trash. The question: were my three main decisions optimal? 1. Expand myself upon seeing cannon expand from opponent. Could I have just kept going with the 4 gate and just walked past the cannons to kill him? 2. Go for mass blink stalker upon scouting double stargate (turns out it was actually triple stargate). What the hell do you do against this. Should I have tried to get HT for storm/feedback? 3. Obviously triple stargate leaves a big timing where he doesn't have many ground units. Do I try to be aggressive with the stalkers + observer to keep his phoenix at home/force base trade, or should I stay home and try to defend? As you can see from the replay I lost a TON of probes just because he had so many phoenix that losing one or two didn't matter too much (yes, I focus fired). Of course underlying all of these questions is "would I have won the game if I had macroed properly towards the end and not floated 20 stalkers in resources". I don't feel very good about posting a replay with such hilariously bad macro but it's not every day you play PvP FE on TDA into 3x stargate so I want to use the opportunity to get some thoughts about the strategy behind my game plan. Maybe it would have been closer if I had 20 more stalkers but picking the right strategy doesn't care about how well I macroed. http://drop.sc/114089
Yes, I played like shit. Yes, this is probably a stupid question. But it kind of bothers me that in a real-time strategy game I can't figure out the correct strategy to use against what my opponent did. Was the decision to turtle until a relatively critical mass of stalkers correct (never mind the execution rofl) or did it let him get away with being too greedy?
This question kind of extends to the general question of what composition to get when playing against a lot of void rays. Maybe a couple colossus is good to roast their zealots? Then the rest stalker with zealots as a mineral dump? Maybe storm since air units clump a lot and void rays don't accelerate that fast?
Any thoughts?
EDIT: the reason I decided against a quicker blink attack/base trade is that even though phoenixes don't do much damage to buildings, I didn't want to get in a situation where he has so many phoenix that his smaller ground force can delay long enough with the help of graviton beam until my attack just putters out. Don't really have much experience fighting phoenix play in general (much less triple stargate) so it's hard to judge whether I can win a battle when lifts are involved.
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any one know how to get an expansion safely against terran :D
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On February 21 2012 04:30 Sated wrote:
If you ignore the balance whining, that's a pretty accurate description of what happened. I didn't save the replay. Besides, it's more a general question than a game-specific question. Most replay analysis is "build more probes d00d", which isn't really helpful when I want advice on how to approach PvZ on that map knowing that this can happen.
As I say, I usually avoid that map like the plague, so I'm far from used to it.
Just a theory-question, dude. I don't know enough to offer you any advice. Do you use Hallu scout at all? I guess, as you FFE, you don't due to the timings of WG and then Hallu after. But, I was wondering if getting a second cyber is a feasible idea? It only costs 150 and can be traded for the lives of 1 - 2 probes who can't get past speedlings (not to mention the increased gains from mining), or sacrificing a cannon (if putting down more than 1). A second core might also be insurance if they bust the front at some point in the game and you lose your core. If the game transitions into late game, you might even be able to use them for fast +1/+1 for any Voids you put out to counter Broodlords and other Zerg air. I'm not sure what the timing of second cyber would be from a FFE, but Hallu researches fast and maybe can be used in a situation like this before you move out and find a wall of spines? Not to mention the repeated use after that. Anyway, just a thought. If this is a dumb suggestion, I'd appreciate knowing why. Cheers.
GL.
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How the fuck you you beat this stupid new Terran build where they go Mass banshee viking seige tank marine and spine all your fucking obs. Its drivining me insane. It looks just like a 111.
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On February 21 2012 10:08 -Zao- wrote:
How the fuck you you beat this stupid new Terran build where they go Mass banshee viking seige tank marine and spine all your fucking obs. Its drivining me insane. It looks just like a 111.
zealot/immortal/archon perhaps? with stalker reinforcements, or maybe some phoenix to deal with banshees? It's definitely a tough composition, I would like some more help on this, too.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 21 2012 10:08 -Zao- wrote:
How the fuck you you beat this stupid new Terran build where they go Mass banshee viking seige tank marine and spine all your fucking obs. Its drivining me insane. It looks just like a 111.
Phoenix, with extra observers. Whenever I play against any sort of play involving terran getting more than 1 starport before he's expanded I always get phoenix out, they shut down banshees really hard, lift tanks, and trade evenly vs. vikings (plus he's not making vikings and tanks and banshees). Add in the fact that you've probably (hopefully) expanded sooner and you should be in a good position, especially if you can get out a ton of zealots. The trick is to make sure you control properly and have the right number of which units to deal with the terran composition: if it's just one starport banshee with cloak you don't want phoenix, and when you do go phoenix you need to be very careful to watch the marine count.
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On February 20 2012 09:07 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:45 xlava wrote:On February 20 2012 05:13 Latedi wrote:On February 20 2012 05:01 Avean wrote:
Any advice against a fast expanding terran ? I saw he was fast expanding and thought basicly i had to push him or else i would be faar behind. So i went 4 gate but he placed down 3 bunkers and i did my best to force field away the SCV's but not enough. I had to just GG out of the game.
So how do i deal with this ? Do i just expand myself and ACCEPT that he will be ahead of me, or should i tech to for example 2 gate robo into colossus from 1 base ? Thats the only solution i can think of. He will not be far ahead of you if you 1gate FE. You could even do the cyber core FE at 20 food or nexus first at 16 if you got balls for that. If you go for the 1gate FE your nexus should be going up around the same time as his orbital is done, if he gasless FEs that is. Meaning the CC won't be producing SCVs or MULEs and he can only gain a superior economy by transfering SCVs at that time. Then you got chronoboost and he got MULEs so the income should be about the same. Even it's not that won't be the deciding factor of the outcome of the game. Fast third  ReplayHigh master protoss here. GL. While that's a possibility I'd not say it's completely safe. There are gimmicks like FE into cloaked banshee or builds such as the 4rax. If the terran is however playing completely standard I'd say a fast third is good.
Agreed. In fact, cloaked banshee builds are its weakness Important point that you picked up on that. But yeah my response was based on the assumption the Terran played standard.
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Anybody have some good replays of 2 base templar in PvT? I've been trying to figure it out on my own but I never seem to be able to get everything I want while also being safe. And I don't even know what I should go for in addition to templar, when to add robo, double forge, third base, etc. Even just some build orders would be great.
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Recently my zerg practice buddy has been doing a build that has me stumped, I believe he said he copied it from LiquidSheth. He turtles on two base with mass upgraded lings and infestors, then he pushes out and attacks my third while taking a third a fourth at about the same time.
My usual style is to FFE into a quick third, unfortunately it's near impossible to take a third against mass lings unless you have the units to do it by force. Even then, a massling/ infested terran attack hurts a lot. Anyway, basically he goes up to brod lords really quickly and I have to spend so much money trying to expand that when his broodlord curropter infestor ling army comes I either lose or trade and then he attacks again and I lose.
Does anybody have experience playing against this type of style? Any help would be appreciated, replys can be added if need be.
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On February 21 2012 04:30 Sated wrote:
If you ignore the balance whining, that's a pretty accurate description of what happened. I didn't save the replay. Besides, it's more a general question than a game-specific question. Most replay analysis is "build more probes d00d", which isn't really helpful when I want advice on how to approach PvZ on that map knowing that this can happen.
As I say, I usually avoid that map like the plague, so I'm far from used to it.
so you're saying you don't bother to get any form of scouting whatsoever and then it's bullshit that he can go for a specific unit composition without you realising it?
why don't you try 5 gate robo pressure into expand instead...or get hallucination....or do some stargate play...just anything where you are not playing blind
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Hi i"m a silver protoss and i have no idea what to do versus zerg.If i forge fast expand they double expand and he has double the army of me.I srsly have no idea what to do versus zerg mainly cuz i almost never meet them on ladder.Anyone has some tips or tricks to play versus zerg?
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On February 21 2012 22:00 ARick wrote:
Hi i"m a silver protoss and i have no idea what to do versus zerg.If i forge fast expand they double expand and he has double the army of me.I srsly have no idea what to do versus zerg mainly cuz i almost never meet them on ladder.Anyone has some tips or tricks to play versus zerg?
If he gets a third, get +1 attack (you should have this researching as soon as possible) then get like 4-6 gates and make a shitload of zealots and attack his third before he gets an army.
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EPT
