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On February 17 2012 23:25 purpose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 22:56 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 17 2012 22:29 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:52 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 17 2012 21:26 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:
For the new season I'm trying something different with my play. I've always found I'm really, really hesitant about moving out to put any kind of pressure on early game. So I'm forcing myself to do a quick tech one-base attack behind which I expand in every match up.
In PvP I'm going gate/robo/gate/gate, getting two immortals and pushing out with a stalker heavy/two immortal force with a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple of zealots to tank. In PvZ I'm going for a quick twilight council, adding on four gates, getting charge and Templar Archives then pushing out with two Archons and a bunch of chargelots. And whilst this is going on I either reinforce if I think I can flat out win or expand behind it and get upgrades whilst pressuring/denying any expansion from my opponent and keeping them distracted. I've basically won every game vZ and vP where my opponent hasn't either all-ind me or managed to pull off a cheese because it seems like most people at my level can't handle that kind of early pressure so they either flat out die or have to pull back into their main, losing their natural and leaving me miles ahead.
My big problem is vT. I honestly have no idea what to build to put fast pressure on here. I've been trying the chargelot/Archon thing on the basis that its quite a powerful combination and Terran don't often get Ghosts that early. However its not been too successful. I straight up lost one game where he had fast expanded. Another tried a one-base Marine/Marauder/Ghost attack on me, lost his main force thanks to my forcefields and after I moved over to his natural it basically became a battle of attrition with me cannoning up in his natural location and teching to storm whilst periodically attacking until I eventually broke in and killed him (but not before he managed to nuke my main).
Anyone got any suggestions for that? Perhaps a really quick two-colossus attack off one base or something? Both your PvZ and PvT strat are very all in, going colossus off of one base even more so. Maybe you should try the normal 3gate expand in PvZ with pressure and the same for PvT. It's more uncommon in PvT but with maybe 4-5 sentries and some other units you can break through bunkers. I know its pretty all in but as I said thats kinda the point: I'm absolutely committing myself to be aggressive fast; a major flaw with my attitude to games is I get way too passive early on, especially against Zerg. When I'm more comfortable being like that then I plan to scale it back to 3-gate expand which is what I've been doing for the past nine months or so. Personally I've not been a huge fan of colossi for a while (I've tended to prefer HTs since I "discovered" them last September). But honestly I'm not sure what else I could pressure with. I guess fast blink might work or something but its evident the Archons just aren't doing the job. I'd rather see you try out forge FE when you are done with the aggressive openings :p As for zealot archon, that's not a really good composition against zerg except for a thing 2base timing and if you're up against ling infestor. Maybe tro some 4gate, voidrays or immortals? Honestly I tried FFE for a couple weeks a while back but literally every time I played I felt like I was just gifting the Zerg a free third and time to tech to enough mutas to just pin me for the knockout blow.  I might toy about with stargates instead though especially given the planned Phoenix upgrade in the upcoming patch. Never really given it a fair shot. I think I might just try straight up robo/stalker against Terran and see what happens with that. The Archons are just way too ineffective in such small numbers early on vs the MM ball. That is exactly how I feel when I FFE against zerg. Its so hard to know when to put pressure and how. Zerg can just drone drone drone, take a third and then out mass you. What I do know is open 2 gate. It is not an allin chees but rather a way to put pressure early so that you can put up your 2nd and tech. what I do is I go 4zealots at the ramp and then push out. You need to be really carefull with your zealots. When they attack I keep on making zealots and put down pylon and forge at my natural depending on what I see with my attacking zealots. If he goes 1 base roach you just put forge and cannon in your main to hold it. If he tries to expand and defend it you go forge at nat and take your expo. After that you can pretty much follow up like a normal game. I usually push out with a second wave of zealots to try and deny a 3ed or force even more lings intead of drones. Then I go either stargate or robo for a Naniwa like 2 colli push with 5-6 gates. if you cant kill him with that you can at least secure your 3ed.
I'm not sure I understand. Is this a Fast Gate expand at the natural or a standard Gate opening at the main? If the latter, I'm not sure how this could work if you wait for 4 Zealots (an early 2 Zealot poke is fine, imo, at least against non gas Z openings). Would this not delay your expand? Not to mention having no Sentries to control space against Z?
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So my PvP has been struggling mainly because I'm not 100% sure what i'm doing. I don't know what builds to use so if someone here could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it. I know that Phoenix play is common but I haven't been able to find any good threads explaining some builds and how to use Phoenix in PvP. Same with Robo play, most of the threads aren't really the meta game build it's just theory crafting on what could be used to change up the PvP matchup. Either way any help for PvP I would appreciate.
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Hi protoss friends. I just got mindfucked. Low/mid master PvP on Tal Darim. I suck it up and go for a 4 gate because hell, it's TDA. I forget about my probe for a while but after it dies ~5:30 I see a pylon by his natural so I assume he's gonna expand with a ton of cannon support. After I warp in my first round of stalkers I put down a nexus of my own; upon watching the replay our expansion timings are roughly the same. I figure that as long as I can deny scouting of my nexus for a while he'll waste some money on cannons so at worst I end up on even economic footing with him. This part of the game is all groovy.
I decide to go for colossus because they are nice a-move friendly units and I have such a big econ. Obs gets to his base and sees double stargate so I cancel the robotics bay and decide to make a lot of blink stalkers since they shoot up. Eventually I die to phoenix/void ray/zealot. I am floating about 20 stalkers of resources at the end because I haven't played in two weeks and I'm trash.
The question: were my three main decisions optimal?
1. Expand myself upon seeing cannon expand from opponent. Could I have just kept going with the 4 gate and just walked past the cannons to kill him?
2. Go for mass blink stalker upon scouting double stargate (turns out it was actually triple stargate). What the hell do you do against this. Should I have tried to get HT for storm/feedback?
3. Obviously triple stargate leaves a big timing where he doesn't have many ground units. Do I try to be aggressive with the stalkers + observer to keep his phoenix at home/force base trade, or should I stay home and try to defend? As you can see from the replay I lost a TON of probes just because he had so many phoenix that losing one or two didn't matter too much (yes, I focus fired).
Of course underlying all of these questions is "would I have won the game if I had macroed properly towards the end and not floated 20 stalkers in resources". I don't feel very good about posting a replay with such hilariously bad macro but it's not every day you play PvP FE on TDA into 3x stargate so I want to use the opportunity to get some thoughts about the strategy behind my game plan. Maybe it would have been closer if I had 20 more stalkers but picking the right strategy doesn't care about how well I macroed.
http://drop.sc/114089
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Hey y'all
http://drop.sc/114185
Me (Platnium EU P) vs Diamond Terran. He goes for 1-1-1, I think i read it pretty well and reacted decently, too. But I can't understand, why I gave out that game. Should I just sit in my base and increasing my probe count, instead of taking risk with counterattacking?
Also, the game-deciding fight was at 21:40, I guess. Have I comlpetely overreacted by pulling so many probes? Could I have just beaten the army with my existing unit composition?
After all: Did I react correctly or should I have gone for a completely other style?
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Two main things:
1. Cut probes from 5:27 to 7:17. If you're going with an immortal zealot sentry defense off 1 gate FE, the point is to have a higher economy by the time he hits. You achieve this by constantly making probes up to low 30s - maybe with the exception of right after your nexus goes up - then cutting them entirely. This didn't end up having an impact on the game but that's because the 1/1/1 was really weak.
2. Your mentality towards fighting the attack: terran is on one base, not you. The burden is on him to kill you, not the other way around. After you pull out slightly ahead in battles stop chasing his army with five units, especially if you pulled probes. Definitely do not attack up his ramp with five units. The best way to throw away a game after you crush a 1/1/1 attack is to attack up a ramp into siege tanks and autorepair. Just don't do it until you're too good to be asking about strategy on TL forums.
Pulling probes for the engagement near your natural/third choke was fine, but the attack up his ramp was horribly misguided... you went from 150% his supply to even (stopped watching after that). If you watch the replay again, pay attention to his income towards the end of the game. Why attack his main? Just chill, make sure he hasn't taken a ninja expo, and hold off the inevitable final push. If he floats his OC down, you can either take another base to replace your mined out natural, or take that opportunity to bust the larger natural ramp.
Other than that, unit composition is roughly correct, but try to use as few stalkers as possible before the main engagement. Warp in stalkers after the fight to clean up banshees, but if you have too many stalkers in the big battle the marines/tanks will have a field day.
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Hi
I am a Platin/Diamond level Protoss player and i am kind of struggling against 1rax/2/rax/4rax (so high pressure builds from terran genrally)
Normally i am trying to do Feasts style from the Day[9]-Daily (1gate expand at 23 then add 2 gates, warpgate finish @6:00, try to push a little with 4stalker/zealot) but it seems to be very diffucult for me to scout those builds early on (I scout with 13Gate Probe) and react accordingly.
What do i have to look for when scouting and how should i change the build afterwards if I now something is coming?
thx a lot :D
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Hey Guys!
I'm struggeling with my PvZ at the moment (I'm not the only one i guess..). I have read some threads here and in other forums and thought about them but nothing I tryed works..
Here a todays replay - http://www.mediafire.com/?ifkk8d70yn4x910 -
My plan was to go colossi + gateway units with some dt pressure (to kep the zerg away from mutas). Unfortunaly i was way to slow and not able to build at least one single colossi because he already had curruptors out and in the end some gg-lords came and simply kicked my butt..  - thats my train of thought.
Would be nice if someone could help me out.
Ah and forget about the last few minutes after the "big" engagement, I was frustrated and just not able to make myself press those magic f10+a buttons.  And of course apologies for my english language skills - I'm from Germany.^^
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Northern Ireland23792 Posts
On February 18 2012 22:45 Goldjunge wrote:Hey Guys! I'm struggeling with my PvZ at the moment (I'm not the only one i guess..). I have read some threads here and in other forums and thought about them but nothing I tryed works.. Here a todays replay - http://www.mediafire.com/?ifkk8d70yn4x910 - My plan was to go colossi + gateway units with some dt pressure (to kep the zerg away from mutas). Unfortunaly i was way to slow and not able to build at least one single colossi because he already had curruptors out and in the end some gg-lords came and simply kicked my butt.. - thats my train of thought. Would be nice if someone could help me out. Ah and forget about the last few minutes after the "big" engagement, I was frustrated and just not able to make myself press those magic f10+a buttons. And of course apologies for my english language skills - I'm from Germany.^^
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970
There are good concepts here, I tend to use that opening a lot. The followup I prefer as a not amazing player is chronoing the shit out of +3 attack, getting lots of blink stalkers after the initial sentries, and pump immortals with early templar. The opening can also transition to standard +2 blink timing attacks, or collosi so I like the versatility of it.
It's a really robust composition, and it can hold a relatively fast third too if you forcefield and storm, +3 immortals and the survivability of blink stalkers makes the midgame quite easy.
I get a second Robo up relatively quickly so I can switch to really pump out immortals if I need to, or collosus switch, but primarily so that I can always have production to get warp prisms out all over the place. You can really hit in a ton of positions with blink stalkers and 1/2 warp prisms with a lot of zealot warpins, the stalkers if you keep your eye on their positioning can just harass expands and blink away. Keep their bases/drone count from getting insane while securing your own 3rd or even 4th and lots of good tech is that kind of way I play the matchup. Lategame zealot/DT warpins, simultaneously from 2 warp prisms while poking with your army can stretch even good players to make terrible mistakes.
Again, it's a general idea of how I approach the matchup, as I haven't got the timings 100% consistent from game to game but I am doing a LOT better this season in the matchup by delaying collosi and getting superfast templar. It gives more versatility as the high temps are a better soft counter to most zerg units than collosus are. Fast temps are much better against Muta play, they are good against infestor/ling provided you don't get hit at an awkward timing, and archons are good in many unit mixes.
Hope it helped
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On February 18 2012 20:40 Xetrael wrote:
Hi
I am a Platin/Diamond level Protoss player and i am kind of struggling against 1rax/2/rax/4rax (so high pressure builds from terran genrally)
Normally i am trying to do Feasts style from the Day[9]-Daily (1gate expand at 23 then add 2 gates, warpgate finish @6:00, try to push a little with 4stalker/zealot) but it seems to be very diffucult for me to scout those builds early on (I scout with 13Gate Probe) and react accordingly.
What do i have to look for when scouting and how should i change the build afterwards if I now something is coming?
thx a lot :D
Try to be active with your scouting probe, and as best as you can, try to keep it alive long enough to leave the Terran base.
When you arrive at the T main, you want to be looking for barracks timings (is it done, how many are there, where is it placed). Then you want to scout for gas. One gas usually means some sort of barracks upgrade opening (concussive shell - often followed up by a 2rax pressure and an expansion).
When you notice the Orbital Command starting, that is your queue to finish collecting information in the main and leave. If you can do so, go to the nearest sight post. This will allow you to see units move out across the map. If nothing comes immediately (thinking of the fast conc. shell rush) you can drop your expansion easily. When doing so, send your scout probe back to the Terran base. You will not get into their main again, but your goal is to scout what is up the ramp. How many units are there? Do you see an add-on on the barracks? If your probe is slowed on his way up the ramp, concussive shell is finished, and you should be prepared for a follow up pressure. (however, in Platinum there are players who will get upgrades without any intention to pressure, so a follow up 2rax attack is not ALWAYS going to follow). You may be lucky enough to scout a Terran expanding at the natural (rather than behind a wall in their main to deny scouting) in which case you're safe until warpgate tech is done.
If there are minimal units at the top of the ramp (2-3 marines), no add on the barracks, you are likely to see one of two things: Banshees or fast expansion. In either case, the correct response is to get your robo after expanding, and chrono an initial observer immediately for scouting.
Generally speaking, the best way to adjust your build once an attack is coming is to stop probe production. In the super early game, you don't want to completely stop probe production if isn't a necessity, since Terran can easily SCV up behind a marauder pressure, and out expand you for an easier Stim/medivac timing.
With early 1base pressures from Terran vs a 1gFE from protoss, you can allow your nexus to tank some damage but ensure you pull your probes. Early on it will still take bio units ages to kill a nexus, and so you can have your nexus soak up damage as you wait up your ramp for warp gate to finish (most prevalent with concussive shell timings or multi rax SCV allins)
After expanding you can go up to 4gateways quickly or 3 gates and a robo. In either case, the longer you stall the terran push, the better your position gets- it allows you to chronoboost out an immortal or chrono all your gateways which will give you a boon in production large enough to usually win the battle convincingly.
As always in PvT, forcefields are crucial.
edit; I always scout on 9 probe. I do not know if pylonvsgateway probe is more effective, but I personally would always rather have the earlier information.
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@ Wombat_NI
Thx a lot! Now I've got a PLETHORA of usefull information. I have make myself some notes and I'm going to practice with a zerg buddy this evening - hope he's not too hard with me..
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@Drup
thx for the advice, I will try to follow them as good as possibly ;D
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Hello, i'm around plat/diamond level protoss and i kinda just die in PvP mid game. I usually open with 3 gate robo and expand and start getting colossi and start building them up and etc. Then when the engagement finally happens, i usually just die and i have no idea why. Any pointers?
Replays: http://drop.sc/114438
http://drop.sc/106079
http://drop.sc/106080
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Northern Ireland23792 Posts
On February 19 2012 04:16 Eliwood5837 wrote:Hello, i'm around plat/diamond level protoss and i kinda just die in PvP mid game. I usually open with 3 gate robo and expand and start getting colossi and start building them up and etc. Then when the engagement finally happens, i usually just die and i have no idea why. Any pointers? Replays: http://drop.sc/114438http://drop.sc/106079http://drop.sc/106080
Will check the replays when I'm back from getting drunk but a general problem for many with the PvP matchup is the flux it's in now that 4gate is a lot weaker. Greedy tech builds can leave you behind if you miss a timing, weird expand builds that you don't scout can leave you at a big deficit, and one bad engagement can cost you the game.
If your opener is 3 gates THEN robo, from what I've seen on ladder that's a lot safer than the majority of builds, and thus you can be behind to the more greedy tech openings.
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Speaking of PvP robo openings, I've been doing a 1 gate robo and have a question. Originally, I'd go Zealot, Stalker, Sentry then put down the Robo @100 gas. Recently, however, I have switched to Zealot, Stalker then a Robo followed by a chronoboosted Sentry. Assuming 12 gate, I get WG up at ~6.00 and an Immortal and warp in another Sentry. This is able to hold off most 4 gates unless I stuff up (although a 'hard' 4 gate precisely at ~5.45 may be more difficult).
Does this seem safe? Or am I being too risky/greedy? I don't know the precise order of the build, so I'm just curious as to whether I am doing it in the orthodox manner in terms of the order I get things, or if Zealot, Stalker, Sentry is more correct.
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My thread got closed cuz of some reason so I'll ask here. I'm having trouble dealing with Zerg players that go Mutas, I tried with Stalkers and HT's but it's simply not enough. I'm also afraid of denying expo's cuz of counter attacks, and warp prism harass is useless vs a Muta player. So i'm wondering what am i doing wrong or what should i do.
I'm currently Silver and here's my last replay of a PvZ: http://drop.sc/114964
Do you guys think that Phoenixes will help deal with it?
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On February 19 2012 05:33 aZealot wrote:
Speaking of PvP robo openings, I've been doing a 1 gate robo and have a question. Originally, I'd go Zealot, Stalker, Sentry then put down the Robo @100 gas. Recently, however, I have switched to Zealot, Stalker then a Robo followed by a chronoboosted Sentry. Assuming 12 gate, I get WG up at ~6.00 and an Immortal and warp in another Sentry. This is able to hold off most 4 gates unless I stuff up (although a 'hard' 4 gate precisely at ~5.45 may be more difficult).
Does this seem safe? Or am I being too risky/greedy? I don't know the precise order of the build, so I'm just curious as to whether I am doing it in the orthodox manner in terms of the order I get things, or if Zealot, Stalker, Sentry is more correct.
Here's a good one http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117
On February 19 2012 04:23 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 04:16 Eliwood5837 wrote:Hello, i'm around plat/diamond level protoss and i kinda just die in PvP mid game. I usually open with 3 gate robo and expand and start getting colossi and start building them up and etc. Then when the engagement finally happens, i usually just die and i have no idea why. Any pointers? Replays: http://drop.sc/114438http://drop.sc/106079http://drop.sc/106080 Will check the replays when I'm back from getting drunk but a general problem for many with the PvP matchup is the flux it's in now that 4gate is a lot weaker. Greedy tech builds can leave you behind if you miss a timing, weird expand builds that you don't scout can leave you at a big deficit, and one bad engagement can cost you the game. If your opener is 3 gates THEN robo, from what I've seen on ladder that's a lot safer than the majority of builds, and thus you can be behind to the more greedy tech openings.
Nice to see you here Wombat :p How's giving advice while drunk going? Seems like a risky strategy if you ask me.
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I just notice a lot of pro protoss just are doing FFE. Especially in the GSL all the protoss just do FFE on all maps (expect CrossFire). Does this mean Gateway expand are out of date?
Just want to know.
Btw I do understand the FFE vs Gateway expand( all variations).
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Thanks Latedi, looks like I've been (sort of) doing the second of the 1 Gate-Robo builds Alej details in his guide. Except I drop 4 chrono on core, 1 on sentry and get my 2nd gas a little later (I've been thinking of getting it slightly earlier though).
I'll try out the other one next time I am on ladder.
Edit/ Ah, I see that "I have returned". Nice.
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Can anyone provide me with replays and/or a correct build order for a 2-base 6 Gate push against Zerg? My PvZ is extremely bad, as I only win approx. 40% :O
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diamond (soon to be plat) toss here
i have trouble playing against air harassment styles (mass mutalisk and medivac drop). i need to have a backup plan to rely on if i see spire building, but i dont have that plan yet. i tried different things like, storm templars, archons, blink, cannons. but it failed because i think i didn focus on ONE aspect but tried to focus on all of them at once.
do you have any advices to defend against air style harassment?
this is a game from today against a plat zerg.
http://drop.sc/115376
he turtled up on 2 bases and teched straight to muta. i tried to build cannons, blink and templar/archon. since watching the replay myself i came to the conclussion that the game wasnt over when i have decided to gg, but i felt VERY uncomfortable and felt so much behind.
how do you deal against air harass and feel secure?
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EPT
