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On February 16 2012 23:03 justiceknight wrote:my replay http://www.mediafire.com/?4506q782e0j73gpwtf did i do wrong???? i destroyed the 3rd,forced him tons of shit lings,i get 3rd then mass and colo.When i attack my army just got pwned....is PVZ late game that bad?
I think it came down to the first engagement you had with him. He was already 20 army supply up, and then your 18 zealots were attacking his hatch instead of fighting. So you were nearly 60 army supply down effectively and without the zealots there to guard against the lings, your stalkers had no chance to take out his broods.
Also you coulda got the mothership, that could win you the game in any one engagment. What league was that btw? diamond? masters?
On February 16 2012 23:22 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 23:15 ThatGuy89 wrote:
Is it possible to pull of a 1 gate expand in PvT on any map currently in the pool? its a build i really wanna use to get me to work on my macro game but im just wondering if its an auto loss on some maps.
Im probably gonna veto shattered and tal darim, and im not sure about the 3rd veto yet, so is every other map in the pool ok for this build?
also, what builds from the terran will just crush this completely?
and finally what should early CB be used on? probes? WG? the first few units out the gateway? or save most of it? Depends on the variation, MC's 1gate fe (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136) should be safe against anything. Also the search function and recommended threads is your friend.
i looked through the recommended threads and the builds on 1 gate FE seemed a little outdated and what with the new maps pools and not i wanted to be certain. And they also didnt really tell where to use chrono. Thanks though ll check out MCs
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On February 16 2012 23:03 justiceknight wrote:my replay http://www.mediafire.com/?4506q782e0j73gpwtf did i do wrong???? i destroyed the 3rd,forced him tons of shit lings,i get 3rd then mass and colo.When i attack my army just got pwned....is PVZ late game that bad?
Just my comments as I watch your replay:
You didn't need to be quite so passive after your attack. I don't mind the decision to not try to end the game, but I think you would have won. That walloff would have worked against him as much as for him with all those Lings, and two Spine Crawlers isn't that scary. You could at least have pressured a bit more, I think.
Your scouting is very bad, so you don't know what tech route he's going.
You got a Stargate and three Void Rays, then threw them away for nothing. That wasted 750/450. That is the moment at which the Resouces Lost tab flips from hugely in your favor to slightly in his favor.
I'm at 20:00 now. You just maxed, and you look like you're pushing out, but your unit composition isn't that great. 21 Zealots is way more than you want; Forcefields and upgraded Colossus are more than enough to handle any number of Lings, and with so many Infestors out, they're likely to end up just getting fungaled and not doing any damage. You have 87 Probes, which is way more than you need; you could have two more Colossus or three more Archons and still be fine for economy. You should be going to a much higher WG count as you max. You have 3000 mins banked and only 10 WGs, so you won't be able to reinforce quickly during your push.
Ok, the engagement is a disaster. You can't fight like this and complain that late game Zerg is too hard. All of your Zealots are off to the right fighting some poor Spine Crawler that wasn't bothering anyone, so 42 supply is simply not in the fight. You let his entire Ling force run right up into your face without any force fields going down.
So your opponent remaxes, and pushes with an army with double the value of yours (8350/4700 to 4450/2950), so you die.
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Has anyone professionally done Phoenix/DT builds besides NonY (Tyler)?
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In PvT, assuming I send a 11 probe scout out, how do you scout the difference between a 1rax gasless FE and marine/scv-all in? When do marine/scv all-ins hit at the earliest?
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Does anyone remember MC's 2gate blink stalker build?
He stays on 2 gates for a long, long time, yet manages to keep his money low and gets blink real quick.
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On February 17 2012 09:53 bankai wrote:
In PvT, assuming I send a 11 probe scout out, how do you scout the difference between a 1rax gasless FE and marine/scv-all in? When do marine/scv all-ins hit at the earliest?
You can't scout the difference with a Probe scout, unless he's just blatantly putting down three Barracks before scaring you away with his first Marine. If you see no gas, you have to be prepared for a Marine/SCV all-in, and you probably won't be able to scout it coming until it moves out. You want to have your Stalkers at his ramp until you're sure no all-in is coming, and poke one up the ramp once or twice in case he's bad and put all his Marines or Barracks in view of the ramp.
I'm not totally sure about the timing, but they hit before you can have Warpgate finished, so I want to say they leave his base at around 5:00-5:30?
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On February 17 2012 17:33 theBALLS wrote:
Does anyone remember MC's 2gate blink stalker build?
He stays on 2 gates for a long, long time, yet manages to keep his money low and gets blink real quick.
Okay I think I figured it out.
12 gate
14 gas
15/16 pylon
18 core
18 gas
19/20 gate
stalker + CB warpgate
2 more stalkers
22/23 pylon
twilight council IMMEDIATELY when enough resources (around 28 supply)
maintain CB on warpgate research until twilight is complete, then begin blink research
All CBs to be spent on blink research
Continue making stalkers 2 at a time
Blink should be ready by about 7:30.
Not very sure when probe production is cut, but this is the rough build.
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For the new season I'm trying something different with my play. I've always found I'm really, really hesitant about moving out to put any kind of pressure on early game. So I'm forcing myself to do a quick tech one-base attack behind which I expand in every match up.
In PvP I'm going gate/robo/gate/gate, getting two immortals and pushing out with a stalker heavy/two immortal force with a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple of zealots to tank. In PvZ I'm going for a quick twilight council, adding on four gates, getting charge and Templar Archives then pushing out with two Archons and a bunch of chargelots. And whilst this is going on I either reinforce if I think I can flat out win or expand behind it and get upgrades whilst pressuring/denying any expansion from my opponent and keeping them distracted. I've basically won every game vZ and vP where my opponent hasn't either all-ind me or managed to pull off a cheese because it seems like most people at my level can't handle that kind of early pressure so they either flat out die or have to pull back into their main, losing their natural and leaving me miles ahead.
My big problem is vT. I honestly have no idea what to build to put fast pressure on here. I've been trying the chargelot/Archon thing on the basis that its quite a powerful combination and Terran don't often get Ghosts that early. However its not been too successful. I straight up lost one game where he had fast expanded. Another tried a one-base Marine/Marauder/Ghost attack on me, lost his main force thanks to my forcefields and after I moved over to his natural it basically became a battle of attrition with me cannoning up in his natural location and teching to storm whilst periodically attacking until I eventually broke in and killed him (but not before he managed to nuke my main).
Anyone got any suggestions for that? Perhaps a really quick two-colossus attack off one base or something?
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What 200/200 race army is the strongest? I know its kinda hard to say since it has to do with what unit comp each race has. But is there a way to say in general who is the strongest? Protoss, zerg or terran? The Protoss deathball has for a long time been considered the best army. But why do protoss keep going deathball? why cant protoss split up their army etc?
Ive heard that protoss is the least reactive race out of the 3? Why is this? I am just trying to figure out why protoss is played the way it is?
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On February 17 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:
For the new season I'm trying something different with my play. I've always found I'm really, really hesitant about moving out to put any kind of pressure on early game. So I'm forcing myself to do a quick tech one-base attack behind which I expand in every match up.
In PvP I'm going gate/robo/gate/gate, getting two immortals and pushing out with a stalker heavy/two immortal force with a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple of zealots to tank. In PvZ I'm going for a quick twilight council, adding on four gates, getting charge and Templar Archives then pushing out with two Archons and a bunch of chargelots. And whilst this is going on I either reinforce if I think I can flat out win or expand behind it and get upgrades whilst pressuring/denying any expansion from my opponent and keeping them distracted. I've basically won every game vZ and vP where my opponent hasn't either all-ind me or managed to pull off a cheese because it seems like most people at my level can't handle that kind of early pressure so they either flat out die or have to pull back into their main, losing their natural and leaving me miles ahead.
My big problem is vT. I honestly have no idea what to build to put fast pressure on here. I've been trying the chargelot/Archon thing on the basis that its quite a powerful combination and Terran don't often get Ghosts that early. However its not been too successful. I straight up lost one game where he had fast expanded. Another tried a one-base Marine/Marauder/Ghost attack on me, lost his main force thanks to my forcefields and after I moved over to his natural it basically became a battle of attrition with me cannoning up in his natural location and teching to storm whilst periodically attacking until I eventually broke in and killed him (but not before he managed to nuke my main).
Anyone got any suggestions for that? Perhaps a really quick two-colossus attack off one base or something?
Both your PvZ and PvT strat are very all in, going colossus off of one base even more so. Maybe you should try the normal 3gate expand in PvZ with pressure and the same for PvT. It's more uncommon in PvT but with maybe 4-5 sentries and some other units you can break through bunkers.
On February 17 2012 21:25 purpose wrote:
What 200/200 race army is the strongest? I know its kinda hard to say since it has to do with what unit comp each race has. But is there a way to say in general who is the strongest? Protoss, zerg or terran? The Protoss deathball has for a long time been considered the best army. But why do protoss keep going deathball? why cant protoss split up their army etc?
Ive heard that protoss is the least reactive race out of the 3? Why is this? I am just trying to figure out why protoss is played the way it is?
Normally that's zerg with the infestor brood lord combination but if you are given enough time, you can get some crazy unit compositions with a combination of carrier voirday mothership archon HT immortal. Those combinations can usually beat anything zerg has, however I don't think it's as effective in PvT. Deathballs are more of a PvZ phenomenon. Protoss can split up their army, not everyone goes for a deathball.
I'd also say terran is way less reactive than protoss, I rarely see them do any major changes to their builds.
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On February 17 2012 21:25 purpose wrote:
What 200/200 race army is the strongest? I know its kinda hard to say since it has to do with what unit comp each race has. But is there a way to say in general who is the strongest? Protoss, zerg or terran? The Protoss deathball has for a long time been considered the best army. But why do protoss keep going deathball? why cant protoss split up their army etc?
Ive heard that protoss is the least reactive race out of the 3? Why is this? I am just trying to figure out why protoss is played the way it is?
Neither army is the strongest really. Protoss has generally the most expensive deathball with alot of aoe, zerg can put the most gas into his army and get 220/200 infestor/BL over a ton of spinecrawlers (that can me moved around) and terran can sacrfice 90% of his SCV's and get "True max" while still mining.
Protoss can split their amy, it's situational. For most of the time it's just required to keep our army together in order for it to work because of T/Z units being cheaper and more mobile.
Protoss is just as reactive as the other races. Watch Artosis play/analyze protoss games.
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On February 17 2012 21:26 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:
For the new season I'm trying something different with my play. I've always found I'm really, really hesitant about moving out to put any kind of pressure on early game. So I'm forcing myself to do a quick tech one-base attack behind which I expand in every match up.
In PvP I'm going gate/robo/gate/gate, getting two immortals and pushing out with a stalker heavy/two immortal force with a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple of zealots to tank. In PvZ I'm going for a quick twilight council, adding on four gates, getting charge and Templar Archives then pushing out with two Archons and a bunch of chargelots. And whilst this is going on I either reinforce if I think I can flat out win or expand behind it and get upgrades whilst pressuring/denying any expansion from my opponent and keeping them distracted. I've basically won every game vZ and vP where my opponent hasn't either all-ind me or managed to pull off a cheese because it seems like most people at my level can't handle that kind of early pressure so they either flat out die or have to pull back into their main, losing their natural and leaving me miles ahead.
My big problem is vT. I honestly have no idea what to build to put fast pressure on here. I've been trying the chargelot/Archon thing on the basis that its quite a powerful combination and Terran don't often get Ghosts that early. However its not been too successful. I straight up lost one game where he had fast expanded. Another tried a one-base Marine/Marauder/Ghost attack on me, lost his main force thanks to my forcefields and after I moved over to his natural it basically became a battle of attrition with me cannoning up in his natural location and teching to storm whilst periodically attacking until I eventually broke in and killed him (but not before he managed to nuke my main).
Anyone got any suggestions for that? Perhaps a really quick two-colossus attack off one base or something? Both your PvZ and PvT strat are very all in, going colossus off of one base even more so. Maybe you should try the normal 3gate expand in PvZ with pressure and the same for PvT. It's more uncommon in PvT but with maybe 4-5 sentries and some other units you can break through bunkers.
I know its pretty all in but as I said thats kinda the point: I'm absolutely committing myself to be aggressive fast; a major flaw with my attitude to games is I get way too passive early on, especially against Zerg. When I'm more comfortable being like that then I plan to scale it back to 3-gate expand which is what I've been doing for the past nine months or so.
Personally I've not been a huge fan of colossi for a while (I've tended to prefer HTs since I "discovered" them last September). But honestly I'm not sure what else I could pressure with. I guess fast blink might work or something but its evident the Archons just aren't doing the job.
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On February 17 2012 21:46 Dariusz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:25 purpose wrote:
What 200/200 race army is the strongest? I know its kinda hard to say since it has to do with what unit comp each race has. But is there a way to say in general who is the strongest? Protoss, zerg or terran? The Protoss deathball has for a long time been considered the best army. But why do protoss keep going deathball? why cant protoss split up their army etc?
Ive heard that protoss is the least reactive race out of the 3? Why is this? I am just trying to figure out why protoss is played the way it is? Neither army is the strongest really. Protoss has generally the most expensive deathball with alot of aoe, zerg can put the most gas into his army and get 220/200 infestor/BL over a ton of spinecrawlers (that can me moved around) and terran can sacrfice 90% of his SCV's and get "True max" while still mining. Protoss can split their amy, it's situational. For most of the time it's just required to keep our army together in order for it to work because of T/Z units being cheaper and more mobile. Protoss is just as reactive as the other races. Watch Artosis play/analyze protoss games.
But when you listen to people many seem to argue that protoss can not split their army and that protoss never mix it up. Terran and zerg is pure class that can diverse tactis and be reactive but protoss just build deathball and attack.
Its kinda annoying tbh.
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On February 17 2012 21:52 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:26 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:
For the new season I'm trying something different with my play. I've always found I'm really, really hesitant about moving out to put any kind of pressure on early game. So I'm forcing myself to do a quick tech one-base attack behind which I expand in every match up.
In PvP I'm going gate/robo/gate/gate, getting two immortals and pushing out with a stalker heavy/two immortal force with a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple of zealots to tank. In PvZ I'm going for a quick twilight council, adding on four gates, getting charge and Templar Archives then pushing out with two Archons and a bunch of chargelots. And whilst this is going on I either reinforce if I think I can flat out win or expand behind it and get upgrades whilst pressuring/denying any expansion from my opponent and keeping them distracted. I've basically won every game vZ and vP where my opponent hasn't either all-ind me or managed to pull off a cheese because it seems like most people at my level can't handle that kind of early pressure so they either flat out die or have to pull back into their main, losing their natural and leaving me miles ahead.
My big problem is vT. I honestly have no idea what to build to put fast pressure on here. I've been trying the chargelot/Archon thing on the basis that its quite a powerful combination and Terran don't often get Ghosts that early. However its not been too successful. I straight up lost one game where he had fast expanded. Another tried a one-base Marine/Marauder/Ghost attack on me, lost his main force thanks to my forcefields and after I moved over to his natural it basically became a battle of attrition with me cannoning up in his natural location and teching to storm whilst periodically attacking until I eventually broke in and killed him (but not before he managed to nuke my main).
Anyone got any suggestions for that? Perhaps a really quick two-colossus attack off one base or something? Both your PvZ and PvT strat are very all in, going colossus off of one base even more so. Maybe you should try the normal 3gate expand in PvZ with pressure and the same for PvT. It's more uncommon in PvT but with maybe 4-5 sentries and some other units you can break through bunkers. I know its pretty all in but as I said thats kinda the point: I'm absolutely committing myself to be aggressive fast; a major flaw with my attitude to games is I get way too passive early on, especially against Zerg. When I'm more comfortable being like that then I plan to scale it back to 3-gate expand which is what I've been doing for the past nine months or so. Personally I've not been a huge fan of colossi for a while (I've tended to prefer HTs since I "discovered" them last September). But honestly I'm not sure what else I could pressure with. I guess fast blink might work or something but its evident the Archons just aren't doing the job.
I'd rather see you try out forge FE when you are done with the aggressive openings :p As for zealot archon, that's not a really good composition against zerg except for a thing 2base timing and if you're up against ling infestor. Maybe tro some 4gate, voidrays or immortals?
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On February 17 2012 22:29 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 21:52 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 17 2012 21:26 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:
For the new season I'm trying something different with my play. I've always found I'm really, really hesitant about moving out to put any kind of pressure on early game. So I'm forcing myself to do a quick tech one-base attack behind which I expand in every match up.
In PvP I'm going gate/robo/gate/gate, getting two immortals and pushing out with a stalker heavy/two immortal force with a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple of zealots to tank. In PvZ I'm going for a quick twilight council, adding on four gates, getting charge and Templar Archives then pushing out with two Archons and a bunch of chargelots. And whilst this is going on I either reinforce if I think I can flat out win or expand behind it and get upgrades whilst pressuring/denying any expansion from my opponent and keeping them distracted. I've basically won every game vZ and vP where my opponent hasn't either all-ind me or managed to pull off a cheese because it seems like most people at my level can't handle that kind of early pressure so they either flat out die or have to pull back into their main, losing their natural and leaving me miles ahead.
My big problem is vT. I honestly have no idea what to build to put fast pressure on here. I've been trying the chargelot/Archon thing on the basis that its quite a powerful combination and Terran don't often get Ghosts that early. However its not been too successful. I straight up lost one game where he had fast expanded. Another tried a one-base Marine/Marauder/Ghost attack on me, lost his main force thanks to my forcefields and after I moved over to his natural it basically became a battle of attrition with me cannoning up in his natural location and teching to storm whilst periodically attacking until I eventually broke in and killed him (but not before he managed to nuke my main).
Anyone got any suggestions for that? Perhaps a really quick two-colossus attack off one base or something? Both your PvZ and PvT strat are very all in, going colossus off of one base even more so. Maybe you should try the normal 3gate expand in PvZ with pressure and the same for PvT. It's more uncommon in PvT but with maybe 4-5 sentries and some other units you can break through bunkers. I know its pretty all in but as I said thats kinda the point: I'm absolutely committing myself to be aggressive fast; a major flaw with my attitude to games is I get way too passive early on, especially against Zerg. When I'm more comfortable being like that then I plan to scale it back to 3-gate expand which is what I've been doing for the past nine months or so. Personally I've not been a huge fan of colossi for a while (I've tended to prefer HTs since I "discovered" them last September). But honestly I'm not sure what else I could pressure with. I guess fast blink might work or something but its evident the Archons just aren't doing the job. I'd rather see you try out forge FE when you are done with the aggressive openings :p As for zealot archon, that's not a really good composition against zerg except for a thing 2base timing and if you're up against ling infestor. Maybe tro some 4gate, voidrays or immortals?
Honestly I tried FFE for a couple weeks a while back but literally every time I played I felt like I was just gifting the Zerg a free third and time to tech to enough mutas to just pin me for the knockout blow.  I might toy about with stargates instead though especially given the planned Phoenix upgrade in the upcoming patch. Never really given it a fair shot.
I think I might just try straight up robo/stalker against Terran and see what happens with that. The Archons are just way too ineffective in such small numbers early on vs the MM ball.
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On February 17 2012 22:56 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 22:29 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:52 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 17 2012 21:26 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:
For the new season I'm trying something different with my play. I've always found I'm really, really hesitant about moving out to put any kind of pressure on early game. So I'm forcing myself to do a quick tech one-base attack behind which I expand in every match up.
In PvP I'm going gate/robo/gate/gate, getting two immortals and pushing out with a stalker heavy/two immortal force with a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple of zealots to tank. In PvZ I'm going for a quick twilight council, adding on four gates, getting charge and Templar Archives then pushing out with two Archons and a bunch of chargelots. And whilst this is going on I either reinforce if I think I can flat out win or expand behind it and get upgrades whilst pressuring/denying any expansion from my opponent and keeping them distracted. I've basically won every game vZ and vP where my opponent hasn't either all-ind me or managed to pull off a cheese because it seems like most people at my level can't handle that kind of early pressure so they either flat out die or have to pull back into their main, losing their natural and leaving me miles ahead.
My big problem is vT. I honestly have no idea what to build to put fast pressure on here. I've been trying the chargelot/Archon thing on the basis that its quite a powerful combination and Terran don't often get Ghosts that early. However its not been too successful. I straight up lost one game where he had fast expanded. Another tried a one-base Marine/Marauder/Ghost attack on me, lost his main force thanks to my forcefields and after I moved over to his natural it basically became a battle of attrition with me cannoning up in his natural location and teching to storm whilst periodically attacking until I eventually broke in and killed him (but not before he managed to nuke my main).
Anyone got any suggestions for that? Perhaps a really quick two-colossus attack off one base or something? Both your PvZ and PvT strat are very all in, going colossus off of one base even more so. Maybe you should try the normal 3gate expand in PvZ with pressure and the same for PvT. It's more uncommon in PvT but with maybe 4-5 sentries and some other units you can break through bunkers. I know its pretty all in but as I said thats kinda the point: I'm absolutely committing myself to be aggressive fast; a major flaw with my attitude to games is I get way too passive early on, especially against Zerg. When I'm more comfortable being like that then I plan to scale it back to 3-gate expand which is what I've been doing for the past nine months or so. Personally I've not been a huge fan of colossi for a while (I've tended to prefer HTs since I "discovered" them last September). But honestly I'm not sure what else I could pressure with. I guess fast blink might work or something but its evident the Archons just aren't doing the job. I'd rather see you try out forge FE when you are done with the aggressive openings :p As for zealot archon, that's not a really good composition against zerg except for a thing 2base timing and if you're up against ling infestor. Maybe tro some 4gate, voidrays or immortals? Honestly I tried FFE for a couple weeks a while back but literally every time I played I felt like I was just gifting the Zerg a free third and time to tech to enough mutas to just pin me for the knockout blow. I might toy about with stargates instead though especially given the planned Phoenix upgrade in the upcoming patch. Never really given it a fair shot. I think I might just try straight up robo/stalker against Terran and see what happens with that. The Archons are just way too ineffective in such small numbers early on vs the MM ball.
Forge FE or die trying  You should pressure or all in at that point. For example you can go +1 4gate, fast voidrays or DTs. You can also expand yourself off of 5gate robo twilight, it's really solid.
Vs terran you could try an immortal bust. Chrono one or two out,get 3-4 sentries for guardian shield and denial of repairs on the bunkers as well as a bunch of stalker/zealot.
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On February 17 2012 22:56 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 22:29 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:52 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 17 2012 21:26 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:
For the new season I'm trying something different with my play. I've always found I'm really, really hesitant about moving out to put any kind of pressure on early game. So I'm forcing myself to do a quick tech one-base attack behind which I expand in every match up.
In PvP I'm going gate/robo/gate/gate, getting two immortals and pushing out with a stalker heavy/two immortal force with a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple of zealots to tank. In PvZ I'm going for a quick twilight council, adding on four gates, getting charge and Templar Archives then pushing out with two Archons and a bunch of chargelots. And whilst this is going on I either reinforce if I think I can flat out win or expand behind it and get upgrades whilst pressuring/denying any expansion from my opponent and keeping them distracted. I've basically won every game vZ and vP where my opponent hasn't either all-ind me or managed to pull off a cheese because it seems like most people at my level can't handle that kind of early pressure so they either flat out die or have to pull back into their main, losing their natural and leaving me miles ahead.
My big problem is vT. I honestly have no idea what to build to put fast pressure on here. I've been trying the chargelot/Archon thing on the basis that its quite a powerful combination and Terran don't often get Ghosts that early. However its not been too successful. I straight up lost one game where he had fast expanded. Another tried a one-base Marine/Marauder/Ghost attack on me, lost his main force thanks to my forcefields and after I moved over to his natural it basically became a battle of attrition with me cannoning up in his natural location and teching to storm whilst periodically attacking until I eventually broke in and killed him (but not before he managed to nuke my main).
Anyone got any suggestions for that? Perhaps a really quick two-colossus attack off one base or something? Both your PvZ and PvT strat are very all in, going colossus off of one base even more so. Maybe you should try the normal 3gate expand in PvZ with pressure and the same for PvT. It's more uncommon in PvT but with maybe 4-5 sentries and some other units you can break through bunkers. I know its pretty all in but as I said thats kinda the point: I'm absolutely committing myself to be aggressive fast; a major flaw with my attitude to games is I get way too passive early on, especially against Zerg. When I'm more comfortable being like that then I plan to scale it back to 3-gate expand which is what I've been doing for the past nine months or so. Personally I've not been a huge fan of colossi for a while (I've tended to prefer HTs since I "discovered" them last September). But honestly I'm not sure what else I could pressure with. I guess fast blink might work or something but its evident the Archons just aren't doing the job. I'd rather see you try out forge FE when you are done with the aggressive openings :p As for zealot archon, that's not a really good composition against zerg except for a thing 2base timing and if you're up against ling infestor. Maybe tro some 4gate, voidrays or immortals? Honestly I tried FFE for a couple weeks a while back but literally every time I played I felt like I was just gifting the Zerg a free third and time to tech to enough mutas to just pin me for the knockout blow. I might toy about with stargates instead though especially given the planned Phoenix upgrade in the upcoming patch. Never really given it a fair shot. I think I might just try straight up robo/stalker against Terran and see what happens with that. The Archons are just way too ineffective in such small numbers early on vs the MM ball.
That is exactly how I feel when I FFE against zerg. Its so hard to know when to put pressure and how. Zerg can just drone drone drone, take a third and then out mass you.
What I do know is open 2 gate. It is not an allin chees but rather a way to put pressure early so that you can put up your 2nd and tech. what I do is I go 4zealots at the ramp and then push out. You need to be really carefull with your zealots. When they attack I keep on making zealots and put down pylon and forge at my natural depending on what I see with my attacking zealots. If he goes 1 base roach you just put forge and cannon in your main to hold it. If he tries to expand and defend it you go forge at nat and take your expo. After that you can pretty much follow up like a normal game. I usually push out with a second wave of zealots to try and deny a 3ed or force even more lings intead of drones.
Then I go either stargate or robo for a Naniwa like 2 colli push with 5-6 gates. if you cant kill him with that you can at least secure your 3ed.
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Yeah just copy the some pros guys. That way you can make sure your pressure is going to be effective if you can execute it cleanly and your opponent really took a fast third.
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On February 17 2012 23:25 purpose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 22:56 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 17 2012 22:29 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:52 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 17 2012 21:26 Latedi wrote:On February 17 2012 21:21 Lightspeaker wrote:
For the new season I'm trying something different with my play. I've always found I'm really, really hesitant about moving out to put any kind of pressure on early game. So I'm forcing myself to do a quick tech one-base attack behind which I expand in every match up.
In PvP I'm going gate/robo/gate/gate, getting two immortals and pushing out with a stalker heavy/two immortal force with a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple of zealots to tank. In PvZ I'm going for a quick twilight council, adding on four gates, getting charge and Templar Archives then pushing out with two Archons and a bunch of chargelots. And whilst this is going on I either reinforce if I think I can flat out win or expand behind it and get upgrades whilst pressuring/denying any expansion from my opponent and keeping them distracted. I've basically won every game vZ and vP where my opponent hasn't either all-ind me or managed to pull off a cheese because it seems like most people at my level can't handle that kind of early pressure so they either flat out die or have to pull back into their main, losing their natural and leaving me miles ahead.
My big problem is vT. I honestly have no idea what to build to put fast pressure on here. I've been trying the chargelot/Archon thing on the basis that its quite a powerful combination and Terran don't often get Ghosts that early. However its not been too successful. I straight up lost one game where he had fast expanded. Another tried a one-base Marine/Marauder/Ghost attack on me, lost his main force thanks to my forcefields and after I moved over to his natural it basically became a battle of attrition with me cannoning up in his natural location and teching to storm whilst periodically attacking until I eventually broke in and killed him (but not before he managed to nuke my main).
Anyone got any suggestions for that? Perhaps a really quick two-colossus attack off one base or something? Both your PvZ and PvT strat are very all in, going colossus off of one base even more so. Maybe you should try the normal 3gate expand in PvZ with pressure and the same for PvT. It's more uncommon in PvT but with maybe 4-5 sentries and some other units you can break through bunkers. I know its pretty all in but as I said thats kinda the point: I'm absolutely committing myself to be aggressive fast; a major flaw with my attitude to games is I get way too passive early on, especially against Zerg. When I'm more comfortable being like that then I plan to scale it back to 3-gate expand which is what I've been doing for the past nine months or so. Personally I've not been a huge fan of colossi for a while (I've tended to prefer HTs since I "discovered" them last September). But honestly I'm not sure what else I could pressure with. I guess fast blink might work or something but its evident the Archons just aren't doing the job. I'd rather see you try out forge FE when you are done with the aggressive openings :p As for zealot archon, that's not a really good composition against zerg except for a thing 2base timing and if you're up against ling infestor. Maybe tro some 4gate, voidrays or immortals? Honestly I tried FFE for a couple weeks a while back but literally every time I played I felt like I was just gifting the Zerg a free third and time to tech to enough mutas to just pin me for the knockout blow. I might toy about with stargates instead though especially given the planned Phoenix upgrade in the upcoming patch. Never really given it a fair shot. I think I might just try straight up robo/stalker against Terran and see what happens with that. The Archons are just way too ineffective in such small numbers early on vs the MM ball. That is exactly how I feel when I FFE against zerg. Its so hard to know when to put pressure and how. Zerg can just drone drone drone, take a third and then out mass you. What I do know is open 2 gate. It is not an allin chees but rather a way to put pressure early so that you can put up your 2nd and tech. what I do is I go 4zealots at the ramp and then push out. You need to be really carefull with your zealots. When they attack I keep on making zealots and put down pylon and forge at my natural depending on what I see with my attacking zealots. If he goes 1 base roach you just put forge and cannon in your main to hold it. If he tries to expand and defend it you go forge at nat and take your expo. After that you can pretty much follow up like a normal game. I usually push out with a second wave of zealots to try and deny a 3ed or force even more lings intead of drones. Then I go either stargate or robo for a Naniwa like 2 colli push with 5-6 gates. if you cant kill him with that you can at least secure your 3ed.
I may be wrong but it seems like there are a million ways to pressure in PvZ after a FFE that occur between the 8-10 min mark, and most of them aren't all-in builds. You can go 4-gate w/ +1 zealots, 4-gate +stargate w/ void ray & +1 zealots, any of the double stargate builds, 7-gate w/ +2 blink stalkers, 4-gate w/ DT's, etc. If nothing else, all of these will force the zerg to make units and not drones, and in many cases you can kill off the third and you'll be miles ahead.
I don't know the exact timing of your 4 zealot build, but with a pair of queens and 1-2 spine crawlers, I feel like the zerg can hold off your pressure pretty easily, especially if they have a few lings to get a surround with. At that point, the zerg will likely be on two bases, while you're on one, so you wind up way behind, even if you've managed some drone kills. But again, I don't know the timings or anything, so maybe the build is more successful than I'm giving it credit for.
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I there can anyone give me some replays of good protoss holding 1 base terran all in (1-1-1, tank marine marauder scv, 4 rax marines etc)
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EPT
