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In PvT on big maps (Tal Darim, Antiga cross-positions, etc.), a lot of times a Terran will open up 1rax FE or 2rax FE without getting a gas, and the "tell" for me is when he doesn't get his refinery. I can keep my probe alive in his base long enough to tell that he's explicitly not getting gas yet and that he's getting a second rax, but then a marine pops out and my scout dies.
Obviously, I don't want to be way behind with my expansion timing, so I throw down my nexus after throwing 1 or 2 gates and usually a core. But I'm always wondering in the back of my mind (especially since this has happened before): What if- instead of expanding- my opponent throws down 2 or 3 more barracks and just marine all-ins me? It's happened to me before and I've just automatically died.
I'm not sure how to re-scout what he has other than to leave a probe in front of his base (he walls his main and he has two or three marines in front of his natural choke) and I feel very vulnerable before my expansion kicks in and warp gate finishes, as I'm trying to get up more gateways to pump out more units... and I feel that an all-in kills me instantly and I can't scout it properly.
Any tips?
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On February 14 2012 04:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
In PvT on big maps (Tal Darim, Antiga cross-positions, etc.), a lot of times a Terran will open up 1rax FE or 2rax FE without getting a gas, and the "tell" for me is when he doesn't get his refinery. I can keep my probe alive in his base long enough to tell that he's explicitly not getting gas yet and that he's getting a second rax, but then a marine pops out and my scout dies.
Obviously, I don't want to be way behind with my expansion timing, so I throw down my nexus after throwing 1 or 2 gates and usually a core. But I'm always wondering in the back of my mind (especially since this has happened before): What if- instead of expanding- my opponent throws down 2 or 3 more barracks and just marine all-ins me? It's happened to me before and I've just automatically died.
I'm not sure how to re-scout what he has other than to leave a probe in front of his base (he walls his main and he has two or three marines in front of his natural choke) and I feel very vulnerable before my expansion kicks in and warp gate finishes, as I'm trying to get up more gateways to pump out more units... and I feel that an all-in kills me instantly and I can't scout it properly.
Any tips?
i've been doing less 1g expo vs t on that map because hellions are quite good and a decent amount of dead space for drops/banshees. if he's openeing without gas no excuse not to have all of your stalkers outside of his nat. with gasless play need to check mid / where he'd float raxes over the edge of his base as well just to make sure. the stalker(s) in front of his base should help you identify + begin to pick at marines/scvs as they go all the way across. if you've been doing that and it's not working, feel free to post a rep and i'll take a gander tonight
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On February 14 2012 04:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
In PvT on big maps (Tal Darim, Antiga cross-positions, etc.), a lot of times a Terran will open up 1rax FE or 2rax FE without getting a gas, and the "tell" for me is when he doesn't get his refinery. I can keep my probe alive in his base long enough to tell that he's explicitly not getting gas yet and that he's getting a second rax, but then a marine pops out and my scout dies.
Obviously, I don't want to be way behind with my expansion timing, so I throw down my nexus after throwing 1 or 2 gates and usually a core. But I'm always wondering in the back of my mind (especially since this has happened before): What if- instead of expanding- my opponent throws down 2 or 3 more barracks and just marine all-ins me? It's happened to me before and I've just automatically died.
I'm not sure how to re-scout what he has other than to leave a probe in front of his base (he walls his main and he has two or three marines in front of his natural choke) and I feel very vulnerable before my expansion kicks in and warp gate finishes, as I'm trying to get up more gateways to pump out more units... and I feel that an all-in kills me instantly and I can't scout it properly.
Any tips?
In this situation you want to 1g FE and rally first stalker to your opponents base. Try to sneak a probe past the bunker while tanking the demage with zealot/stalker to see if he expanded. If you throw down 2 more gates at 30 supply after 1 gate expo you can make enaugh stalkers to kite him and defend marine SCV allin. If you have no ramp you make stalkers and if you have ramp then sentries. Pull probes if he pulls SCV's.
With most of the marine early pushes you deal by kiting with stalkers (starting as far from your base as you can) or with force fields.
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Some more tips: Always go up to 3 gates before you throw down any tech, this will help a lot. Another trick you can use is sending your first zealot and a probe up his ramp, the probe slightly behind the zealot. The marines will attack the zealot and the probe runs by, retreat the zealot so he doesn't die if possible. You should be able to see if he has an orbital command or not.
Alej: Even when they do open hellion I find 1gate FE to be the best response, but you need to play flawlessly or the hellions will eat your stuff. What I have been doing is taking xel nagas or parking outside his main to scout any hellions leaving, 2 stalkers blocking the ramp, and the rest of your units to scare off any hellion/marine drop or banshees. For example if you see him leaving his base with 4 hellions and suspect a marine drop, warp in some units in your main and take the natural probes and run them into the main. Warp in units in your main and then just retake your natural when you are safe. The only vulnerability I have found so far is if he pulls back and hellion drop your main but with proper building placement and another warp in, you should be safe. I'd love to hear if you got any input on this because I'm dying to hellions a lot heh.
Edit: Oops someone beat me to it, I'll just leave it anyway.
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Hi need some help with 14gp into 2 base lair in general.
If I open sentry expand, and scout 2 base lair with my first hallu, what should I do? If it's mutalisks I want a 3rd, if It's infesters - I don't want a 3rd, right? Some crazy people even build a Spire AND an infester pit, just so I am forced to gamble...
On a map like Dual Sight, where I don't want to FFE - and either do 3gate Sentry expo, or 2gate Sentry FE into SG. I have really no idea how to respond to seeing fast lair + no 3rd...
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even if you play perfect, hellions are a pretty good unit :/
vs muta you can take a 3rd as your finishing blink with 6 gates. make sure you have an obs out where he would optimally fly around the outside of your main and 3rd. make sure you keep an obs on his rally as well. if he swells with roaches suddenly, consider holding off on your ht tech til a little later and get some immortals out with that gas
vs infestor i don't want to take my 3rd until I have a colo out with range almost done. need to check his 3rd timing to be safe, though 2 base infestor all-ins have pretty much gone out of vogue. spread them sentries
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On February 14 2012 05:04 Alejandrisha wrote:
even if you play perfect, hellions are a pretty good unit :/
vs muta you can take a 3rd as your finishing blink with 6 gates. make sure you have an obs out where he would optimally fly around the outside of your main and 3rd. make sure you keep an obs on his rally as well. if he swells with roaches suddenly, consider holding off on your ht tech til a little later and get some immortals out with that gas
vs infestor i don't want to take my 3rd until I have a colo out with range almost done. need to check his 3rd timing to be safe, though 2 base infestor all-ins have pretty much gone out of vogue. spread them sentries
Thanks for help Alej :D
Do you mean I should try to kill him (pressure) with 6gate blink, while taking 3rd? Or just get ready to defend?
Not sure If I can get robo + tc + blink + 6gates from a 3gate sentry expands D:
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While watching Grubby's stream I've noticed he uses the 1 Gate FE vs Z a lot. I've tried googling and searching around on TL and I can't seem to find any information about its ins and outs. I also heard iNcontroL discussing it with Destiny during one of the EG practice session streams, when he mentioned that he prefers it on maps like Metalopolis and Shattered Temple because of the natural expansion's choke.. Does anyone know where I can go to find out more about this opening? Or quickly lay out some of the basic logic behind it?
It seems like the faster tech would be very useful against early roach aggression, a thing I've struggled with consistently while using a Forge FE.
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Perfect play isn't too hard when executing a macro build. I think it's doable :o
On February 14 2012 05:12 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:04 Alejandrisha wrote:
even if you play perfect, hellions are a pretty good unit :/
vs muta you can take a 3rd as your finishing blink with 6 gates. make sure you have an obs out where he would optimally fly around the outside of your main and 3rd. make sure you keep an obs on his rally as well. if he swells with roaches suddenly, consider holding off on your ht tech til a little later and get some immortals out with that gas
vs infestor i don't want to take my 3rd until I have a colo out with range almost done. need to check his 3rd timing to be safe, though 2 base infestor all-ins have pretty much gone out of vogue. spread them sentries Thanks for help Alej :D Do you mean I should try to kill him (pressure) with 6gate blink, while taking 3rd? Or just get ready to defend? Not sure If I can get robo + tc + blink + 6gates from a 3gate sentry expands D:
Hmm no. Either you all in, or you defend. Try forge FE :p
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What should I do if he has 14 or so mutas and goes into roaches. Should I still try to get 4-6 cannons and an HT and my minerals lines then push out after I secure my third? Or should I just throw up 2-3 cannons then push out with blink stalker/sentry/HT?
Also, if they mass spine their natural... do I just mass cannons, play super defensive while watching their army?
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On February 14 2012 05:17 Misanthrope wrote:
While watching Grubby's stream I've noticed he uses the 1 Gate FE vs Z a lot. I've tried googling and searching around on TL and I can't seem to find any information about its ins and outs. I also heard iNcontroL discussing it with Destiny during one of the EG practice session streams, when he mentioned that he prefers it on maps like Metalopolis and Shattered Temple because of the natural expansion's choke.. Does anyone know where I can go to find out more about this opening? Or quickly lay out some of the basic logic behind it?
It seems like the faster tech would be very useful against early roach aggression, a thing I've struggled with consistently while using a Forge FE.
It's basically the same as a 3gate FE, but you do it on one. Your chronoboost should go to the gate instead of the cybernetics core though and you might need another pylon before the nexus. Put that one in your natural and use gate 2-3 to wall so you can survive any heavy ling aggression.
On February 14 2012 05:20 mizU wrote:
What should I do if he has 14 or so mutas and goes into roaches. Should I still try to get 4-6 cannons and an HT and my minerals lines then push out after I secure my third? Or should I just throw up 2-3 cannons then push out with blink stalker/sentry/HT?
Also, if they mass spine their natural... do I just mass cannons, play super defensive while watching their army?
That's not many mutas at all. Just make 2-3 cannons per (vulnerable) mineral line and continue playing like normal, knowing you are ahead if the mutas did not do damage or slowed you down. They are not exactly good in combat.
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Thanks a lot guys!
I feel like a dumby for not finding Cecil's guide by myself. T_T Oh well now I knows!
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On February 14 2012 05:12 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:04 Alejandrisha wrote:
even if you play perfect, hellions are a pretty good unit :/
vs muta you can take a 3rd as your finishing blink with 6 gates. make sure you have an obs out where he would optimally fly around the outside of your main and 3rd. make sure you keep an obs on his rally as well. if he swells with roaches suddenly, consider holding off on your ht tech til a little later and get some immortals out with that gas
vs infestor i don't want to take my 3rd until I have a colo out with range almost done. need to check his 3rd timing to be safe, though 2 base infestor all-ins have pretty much gone out of vogue. spread them sentries Thanks for help Alej :D Do you mean I should try to kill him (pressure) with 6gate blink, while taking 3rd? Or just get ready to defend? Not sure If I can get robo + tc + blink + 6gates from a 3gate sentry expands D:
defend defend defend! robo just for obs if you don't see roach. you won't be making from all 6gates constantly, no worries. 5 gates will do just as well in most cases
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On February 14 2012 05:20 mizU wrote:
What should I do if he has 14 or so mutas and goes into roaches. Should I still try to get 4-6 cannons and an HT and my minerals lines then push out after I secure my third? Or should I just throw up 2-3 cannons then push out with blink stalker/sentry/HT?
Also, if they mass spine their natural... do I just mass cannons, play super defensive while watching their army?
I find you can start to push your weight around once you've got ~160 food and storm is done. if they have a good amount of roach i wouldn't do this until you've got 3+ immortals and a good sentry count. the last thing you want to do is trade with roaches without insanely imba cost efficiency. vs mass spine all you can really do is try to get your 4th and continue to defend vs muta with goods obs placement and tower control and get that mother ship out for some toilets
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On February 14 2012 05:41 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:12 Trusty wrote:On February 14 2012 05:04 Alejandrisha wrote:
even if you play perfect, hellions are a pretty good unit :/
vs muta you can take a 3rd as your finishing blink with 6 gates. make sure you have an obs out where he would optimally fly around the outside of your main and 3rd. make sure you keep an obs on his rally as well. if he swells with roaches suddenly, consider holding off on your ht tech til a little later and get some immortals out with that gas
vs infestor i don't want to take my 3rd until I have a colo out with range almost done. need to check his 3rd timing to be safe, though 2 base infestor all-ins have pretty much gone out of vogue. spread them sentries Thanks for help Alej :D Do you mean I should try to kill him (pressure) with 6gate blink, while taking 3rd? Or just get ready to defend? Not sure If I can get robo + tc + blink + 6gates from a 3gate sentry expands D: defend defend defend! robo just for obs if you don't see roach. you won't be making from all 6gates constantly, no worries. 5 gates will do just as well in most cases
Ok thanks! I think that has been my main issue when I sentry expand (I don't do it often, only on 1 or 2 non-ladder maps).
I always see the spire, and just think 'I have to kill him now' - because I can't get the fast 3rd That I usually like to get vs Mutalisk (when I've done FFE).
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Thanks for the replies, Alej, Dariusz, and Latedi  That gives me a lot to work with ^^
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On February 13 2012 16:52 name_lock wrote:
I'm lost when facing 1 base medivac stim all ins from Terran. These can range from vvvRuff's marine +1 timing to 3 rax marauder marine. Usually they pull SCVs and I just fall right over. Either that or I slowly get whittled away as his medivac count grows and my army dwindles. I'm not sure how much time I have to tech before his attack either. Is it possible to hold with just gateway units, ff and forcefield? Or do I need some kind of upgrade/charge/aoe?
help!
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On February 14 2012 06:00 name_lock wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 16:52 name_lock wrote:
I'm lost when facing 1 base medivac stim all ins from Terran. These can range from vvvRuff's marine +1 timing to 3 rax marauder marine. Usually they pull SCVs and I just fall right over. Either that or I slowly get whittled away as his medivac count grows and my army dwindles. I'm not sure how much time I have to tech before his attack either. Is it possible to hold with just gateway units, ff and forcefield? Or do I need some kind of upgrade/charge/aoe? help!
Assuming you've done nexus first / 1 gate FE, if they pull scvs, pull probes.
Not sure about vvvRuff's marine +1 ( I don't know it), but 3rax stim can be held with 1gate FE with just gates (or 3gate + robo? - I usually delay my robo vs suspected 2 or 3 rax)
It's hard if it's hidden well, as you need to realise it's a stim timing, and not miss any warp-in cycles.
You can usually get them to show a Marauder if you open 1gate FE zealot/stalker/stalker before Nexus.
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I was watching SlayerSCranK on stream yesterday, and i found that in pvz he kept doing some sort of ffe into 4gate with proxy pressuring the z's 3rd, but he also had voids pressuring the zergs main, does anyone know any sort of similar build or the build order for this?
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EPT
