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Italy12246 Posts
On February 23 2012 19:45 UnoS wrote:
I'm totally new to the protoss race so I do not even know when to drop the robo to get my scout out. I would actually need a bit of toss coaching on the EU before I put my toss play onto the ladder! I've only played toss for a couple of games and got 7 wins on the ladder with it. But as my main race is terran I haven't played much else. I would love it if someone could help me out in game. Since I do wanna give the toss race a real chance before settling with Terran.
// UnoS
Depends on the matchup.
In PvT you either basically rush for a really fast obs on 1base, or get the robo after you expand. There's guide for both builds in the recommneded thread section.
In PvZ scouting is more often done with either stargate units or hallucinated phoenixes since there is no necessity for a really really fast robo unless you are going for specific builds. Again, see the recommened thread section.
In PvP it kind of comes down to the opening and midgame build you are going for; again, strategy section, especially the section about robo/blink, twilight builds, phoenix builds which have good scouting means built in.
edit: lol sated good point.
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I haven't played in a super long time, however, I was Masters so hopefully my skills didn't deteriorate that much. Basically, I have no idea what builds people do nowadays as protoss. My old builds was something like PvZ - 15 nexus into void ray colossi, 1 gate stargate fe into colossi, and maybe 3 gate fe rarely. PvT - 1 gate fe into chargelot colossi or this 2 gate fe build by Naniwa. PvP - I actually have no idea how to play this, but I used to do a sick 4 gate on tal'darim, on regular maps I'd dt into archon. So what do people do nowadays? Also what do most races do nowadays against Protoss? Link to a guide would be great! Anyways, thanks for reading at least.
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Canada13389 Posts
On February 24 2012 14:53 MuffinFTW wrote:
I haven't played in a super long time, however, I was Masters so hopefully my skills didn't deteriorate that much. Basically, I have no idea what builds people do nowadays as protoss. My old builds was something like PvZ - 15 nexus into void ray colossi, 1 gate stargate fe into colossi, and maybe 3 gate fe rarely. PvT - 1 gate fe into chargelot colossi or this 2 gate fe build by Naniwa. PvP - I actually have no idea how to play this, but I used to do a sick 4 gate on tal'darim, on regular maps I'd dt into archon. So what do people do nowadays? Also what do most races do nowadays against Protoss? Link to a guide would be great! Anyways, thanks for reading at least.
Right now PvZ is an FFE and you can do nex first against a standard pool timing so thats fine. Usually Z goes fast 3 base skipping early gas so now people do something like a +1 zealot 4 gate off 2 base taking the natural gasses after the +1 is done or sometimes a void ray +1 zealot 4 gate. The intent is to kill the 3rd base if the Z droned too much or force a lot of units. Then scout tech and respond appropriately with obs or hallucination. This is the general strat for macro since you need to do some pressure in the early mid game.
PvT is 1 gate FE and the mid game is pretty open the most popular strat atm is probably double forge but T has been getting better at dealing with this lately either with ups of their own and a fast 3rd. The most notable change in this matchup lately has been more storm use and HT play than in the past few months most recently. There is also the new immortal 2 base busts with a lot of sentries on maps with open naturals.
PvP is still very volatile. Pheonix is popular, so is blink play. DT expand is the new DT based play as DT into archon off one base is pretty weak and people have learned to respond to it better than in the past. Short of perfectly mirrored builds expansions are getting much more common in PvP. I've personally been doing 3 gate robo immortal speed prism drop into expand. If I scout no blink or pheonix I commit to the drops otherwise i just expand and defend really.
Im only diamond but this is what ive been seeing a lot in GSL and other pro play so hopefully im not too far off 
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On February 23 2012 10:07 Chasian18 wrote:Hey all, didn't wanna clog up the strat board with just this question about this game so i decided to come here. So basically this is a pvp situation where i have zealot sentry stalker and 1 immortal, while he has and mmm ball. The supplies were about 10 difference in actual army supply, (my supply lead was in workers) but somehow my army still lost and i just can't pin point the problem that happened in the replay, i thought maybe the medevacs just completely saved his life, or the forcefields were a bad idea maybe. Or, i was just plain unlucky that i expanded right when he attacked, because what i should've done is waited on the ramp and cut his army in half. either way, here is the replay http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/18101 . I'm in silver league aspiring to be gold, plat, diamond, master :D but please criticize everything if you have the time, but for sure tell me how i lost that last battle. Thanks guys, Brotoss love <3
Take these quick comments as you like from a Protoss with a Gold rank. I had a fast look through the replay.
1. Your probe production was not the best. There was, for example, around 8 minutes in the game a period where your Nexus was idle for a long time.
2. You were floating over 2k in minerals towards the end of the game. You had just 4 gates on 2 bases with good saturation and was taking a third. Given you weren't going heavy colossus you needed more gateways.
3. You saw he was going Marauder heavy. You needed to cut back on the Stalkers and get more Zealot/Immortal.
4. Why research blink first when you weren't going to use it? You should have gotten charge first.
5. You dropped double forge and then did nothing with them for a long time. When the Terran attacked he was 1/1 and you were just researching 1/1. With chrono you could have been researching 2/2 with Chargelots.
6. Given the number of medivacs he was getting you really needed some kind of splash at that point in the game although mass gateway with upgrades may have still done the job. Either Colossus (ideally) or Templar. You were teching to storm but it was late. A couple of Templars would have helped, either for feedback or as Archons.
7. The FF was ok during the engagement but GS would have been better to give you that crucial +2 armour. You could even have combined the two, even though it meant your Zealots were taking hits from the Terran units behind the FF. But your 3 Sentries had more than enough energy for those 3 FF and also a couple of GS.
Hope that helped. By the way, I do know what it is like to lose to Terran from that position (where it looks like you have the game in hand and think you have done everything right). Good luck and have fun, mate.
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Okay so i have some questions. I would be really grateful if someone could help me out. thanks!
1. In PvT and PvZ i go for 1 gate expand (unless i feel comfortable FFEing vs zerg) and usually it works out fine, but i have a problem with knowing how many more gateways to add after i expand. I always seem like i'm going for Colossus in PvT and in PvZ i respond to whatever they're doing (ht for muta, etc). I also have been working on not getting supply blocked so i have been getting supply blocked very little lately (maybe once a game?) but i still seem to have like 1000+ minerals in a matter of minutes. I just dont really know how much stuff to make!
2. In PvP i have no idea what the hell i am doing. I feel like ive read alot of guides and tried everything and no matter what i do i get stomped by whatever they do. If they expand i feel like i have no way of putting on pressure. If i do a 1 base i feel like they always defend it easily. I know its because im not doing a proper build. People have said to do blink + obs but i dont really know how to go about getting the infrastructure for that and i dont know what to do with it once i have blink and and obs. It always feels really hard to harass with it.I just dont really know a proper build to do and i dont know how to follow up with it.
I'm mid diamond level BTW incase anyone was wondering. Thanks!
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Phoenix vs Muta, what is the deal here? Artosis said that phoneix micro takes so much effort vs mutas that you hardy can do anything els. But then I have a m8 who claim that you dont even need to micro phoenix vs mutas och he bases that on putting up all statistics about muta och phoneix to show how much attack, bonus, dps bonus and so on each side does and from that conclude that phoenix owns mutas head on.
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Italy12246 Posts
As long as it's not about mech, listen to Artosis when it comes to sc2 strategy.
And blink/storm is still a better reaction to muta than phoenixes.
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On February 24 2012 16:07 Corrosive wrote:
Okay so i have some questions. I would be really grateful if someone could help me out. thanks!
1. In PvT and PvZ i go for 1 gate expand (unless i feel comfortable FFEing vs zerg) and usually it works out fine, but i have a problem with knowing how many more gateways to add after i expand. I always seem like i'm going for Colossus in PvT and in PvZ i respond to whatever they're doing (ht for muta, etc). I also have been working on not getting supply blocked so i have been getting supply blocked very little lately (maybe once a game?) but i still seem to have like 1000+ minerals in a matter of minutes. I just dont really know how much stuff to make!
2. In PvP i have no idea what the hell i am doing. I feel like ive read alot of guides and tried everything and no matter what i do i get stomped by whatever they do. If they expand i feel like i have no way of putting on pressure. If i do a 1 base i feel like they always defend it easily. I know its because im not doing a proper build. People have said to do blink + obs but i dont really know how to go about getting the infrastructure for that and i dont know what to do with it once i have blink and and obs. It always feels really hard to harass with it.I just dont really know a proper build to do and i dont know how to follow up with it.
I'm mid diamond level BTW incase anyone was wondering. Thanks!
1. Standard PvT is as follows: 1gate FE -> 3gates -> robo -> colossus -> 5 gates -> forge + twilight or a third -> the other one
These can be rearranged at will. For example you can take a fast third after colossus, add gates and then get tech. How many gates you add on 2 bases depend a lot on what you want to do. you can expand or tech off of 3-4 gates if you are greedy, some players even stay on 2 but that's too dangerous in my opinion. The standard would be expanding with 5, and if you get 6 or more you could probably put some pressure on.
2. Harassing with blink obs isn't completely necessary. It's a lot about taking map control as well. But if you do harass the standard is poking the front and pick off what you can, if he's got too much stuff you see if you can blink into his main and pick something off there instead. You can also trick him by blinking into the main, and if he brings all his stuff there you can forcefield the natural ramp and blink back out to take out his natural with effort. There are a lot of things you can do  Be creative about it.
If you don't like using blink obs you can always go phoenix or immortal expand.
Ooh and about the proper build, most players seem to have their own variation. My favorite is probably the gate twilight gate robo gate. It's all about being as greedy as possible without dying. Try these:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249638
On February 24 2012 22:23 purpose wrote:
Phoenix vs Muta, what is the deal here? Artosis said that phoneix micro takes so much effort vs mutas that you hardy can do anything els. But then I have a m8 who claim that you dont even need to micro phoenix vs mutas och he bases that on putting up all statistics about muta och phoneix to show how much attack, bonus, dps bonus and so on each side does and from that conclude that phoenix owns mutas head on.
Your mate can say whatever he likes. Numbers does not reflect a real game and if you don't micro your phoenixes, you will lose them.
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On February 24 2012 22:23 purpose wrote:
Phoenix vs Muta, what is the deal here? Artosis said that phoneix micro takes so much effort vs mutas that you hardy can do anything els. But then I have a m8 who claim that you dont even need to micro phoenix vs mutas och he bases that on putting up all statistics about muta och phoneix to show how much attack, bonus, dps bonus and so on each side does and from that conclude that phoenix owns mutas head on.
yes x pheonixes will beat x mutas....but due to zergs production they can produce more than double your pheonix's unless you were going double stargate. and even if you can produce enough pheonixes if they start making mutas they just stop and make roach infestor and suddenly your stargate tech is just not good enough in a straight up fight
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for the PvZ 7 gate +2 blink all-in how many probes should I be stopping at?
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Italy12246 Posts
On February 25 2012 00:40 ThePianoDentist wrote:
for the PvZ 7 gate +2 blink all-in how many probes should I be stopping at?
2base full saturation, 44 probes. You can make more if you want to put pressure on and take a third, which is actually quite viable.
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Question about 4 gates.
On a 2 player map against all races, I would go 4 gate. I'm in silver so I'm mainly hoping for opponent to mess up and easy win. Since I stop making probes to get warp-ins, how much damage must I do for us to be even? I lost one game really badly where I 4 gated zerg on shakuras , worst map to do it on because of long rush distances. Zerg held me off with a huge amount of speedlings and toke 3 more bases. I was turtling really hard and got my 2nd late. Obviously, I lost there but I want to know how much should I commit and if I kill enough of his units, we would be equal and I could expand. )
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Also another question, how many gates can I support on 2 bases while collosus production. I try to get a 3rd while getting out 4 collosus and then a push.
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Has anyone noticed a metagame shift in PvZ?
i used to see early muta about 90% of the time, and then the last 10% normally saw mutas a bit later on. Since the patch came live ive played 15 PvZs and not ONCE have they opened or even used muta. Is this a reaction to the phoenix range upgrade? When i get the fleetbecon on 3 or 4 base, its to get momaship, i cant imagine a situation where i'd think 'hmmm pheonix would be a nice transition now'
When they have corruptor/hydra/infestor its jsut not viable, especially not when collosus/stalker/HT/archon is easy to use and more efficient
has anyone had much experience of the new range increase? good bad?
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Hello,
I have a question/request for help in PvT. I'm a mid plat level protoss and my PvT isn't terrible but the thing I am losing to is a lot of drop play. I was just wondering what the best way to deal with this is.
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Italy12246 Posts
On February 25 2012 08:53 sauman wrote:
Hello,
I have a question/request for help in PvT. I'm a mid plat level protoss and my PvT isn't terrible but the thing I am losing to is a lot of drop play. I was just wondering what the best way to deal with this is.
See it coming, mostly. I always build 2 observers, one for scouting his build/expansion timings/army movement and the second to patrol where drops are more likely to come from. Spread pylons around the map, leave a few units at home, and watch the minimap like your life depends on it, because it kinda does.
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On February 25 2012 08:53 sauman wrote:
Hello,
I have a question/request for help in PvT. I'm a mid plat level protoss and my PvT isn't terrible but the thing I am losing to is a lot of drop play. I was just wondering what the best way to deal with this is.
if he lets you keep control of watchtowers. or try and have an observer kind of over his army. therefore if you know he's not about to attack your front you should be thinking the only way he can do damage is with drops therefore you can split up your army to wait for the drops...then if you see him moving out you can go and defend your front
also use spotter pylons around the map on drop routes to spot incoming drops. once on 3 bases with templar tech leave a templar at each base with a cannon to feedback/storm drops.
the hardest part to defend is when he has just got medivacs, stim and +1 and your army is quite vulnerable versus his. good terrans will take map control and snipe your obs so you have no idea whether he is about to attack your front or drop in your main. if you took a third it's especially difficult to defend at this point (depending on map), which correct me if I'm wrong is why focusing on double upgrades with a slightly later first base has become much more common. anyway point is if you are on 2 base at this stage and have no vision, try and just leave maybe around 4 stalkers in your main to ward off drops, remember to focus the medivacs down if he still does drop and very few troops will get out (if a better player than me has a different way of dealing with this potential threat of attack on natural and drop in main please say
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On February 25 2012 01:41 CommanchyWattkins wrote:Question about 4 gates. On a 2 player map against all races, I would go 4 gate. I'm in silver so I'm mainly hoping for opponent to mess up and easy win. Since I stop making probes to get warp-ins, how much damage must I do for us to be even? I lost one game really badly where I 4 gated zerg on shakuras , worst map to do it on because of long rush distances. Zerg held me off with a huge amount of speedlings and toke 3 more bases. I was turtling really hard and got my 2nd late. Obviously, I lost there but I want to know how much should I commit and if I kill enough of his units, we would be equal and I could expand. )
in lower levels people seem to be scared of expanding a lot. Rather than just the "MACRO BETTER" tip to lower league played expanding faster and more often will see you rise up the leagues quicker. I would suggest always just expanding if your 4 gate doesn't kill him, against zerg try and start walling off your natural with a pylon and some buildings so if he does counter-attack with lings you can just forcefield him out of the small gaps in your wall.
also make sure your 4 gate is hitting at a decent time, gateway on 12, cybercore down as soon as gateway finishes. first two chronos on probes, all the others on warpgate. stop at 20 probes (24 supply with your zealot and stalker out of gateway). only put down your third pylon (in an aggressive position near his base) after adding 2nd, 3rd and 4th gateways
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On February 25 2012 01:52 CommanchyWattkins wrote:
Also another question, how many gates can I support on 2 bases while collosus production. I try to get a 3rd while getting out 4 collosus and then a push.
since no-one else has answered I'll try but I might be wrong as I don't play 2 base colosus often. obviously it depends on other factors such as are you teching and upgrading as well, are you still making probes and taking a third base....but I think if you are chronoboosting colossi and not missing warp-ins or getting supply blocked if you have cut probes then you can support 5 gates + colossi. an easy thing to test out if no-one who's more sure gives you answer. just try your style with x gateways, then in-game or watching replay see if money gets too high, need more gateways, if not utilising all my warpgates build less.
but it's better to overbuild rather than underbuild gateways anyway. as if you plan on taking a third you'll need those extra gateways eventually. also if you are going to go for a bust with your colossi if you have a forward pylon more gates helps as colossi reinforcement is slow but gateway is instant
also 4 colossi sounds a lot. if you have kept making probes non-stop if you are talking about taking a third after 4 colossi that may be a bit late and you may be heavily oversaturated. My housemate is in silver and I notice this from him a lot. He can keep making probes non-stop but his late expansions mean he often doesn't benefit from this. I'll look at one of his bases and he'll have about 50 probes on there. you stop gaining from more probes at 30 per base, so if you look at your expansion and see you have a ton of probes there you might as well just take a third then (you can count number of probes by highlighting them and counting them in the wireframe at the bottom...or adding them to a control group and looking at the number of units in that control group, +2 for the ones hidden in gas)...just something to keep in mind, and another reason why just expanding a lot at this level is a massive help
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EPT
