|
On August 01 2011 19:17 4kmonk wrote:
I do actually think collosi is a viable choice. Don't get me wrong on that. However, it's more fragile and vulnerable to timings. Plus, it's hard to expand with it and you lose map control. Mostly it depends on the map imo. For example, Antiga shipyards has an easily defend-able 2nd and 3rd so collosi might be good on that map. Map distance shouldn't matter though because of warpgates.
On map-control: this is right, nevertheless in those situations I am talking about, you will NEVER have map-control. Whenever I play blink, I make sure that I always have a stronger stalker-force than you and if you leave your base with your immortals, I just blink in and own pylons.
This was pretty much the core point of my criticism, that you shouldn't try to "regain" mapcontrol, but safely macro up 2 base and defend. When I play blink I have the most problems when my opponent just doesn't sacrifice stuff and stays very defensive. Because then my huge stalker-force gets less and less useful the longer the game progresses.
Map distance should still matter because normally the blink player warps zealots/archons inside his natural. The stalker-ball moves around the map, the zealot/archon force stays behind...also to protect against hidden zealot warp-ins. On maps like typhon peaks, zealot/archon needs quite some time to march over, if your opponent wants to hit a timing where you have too few colossi to defend. On maps like shakuras, zealot/archon is very weak offensively in general, you can easily defend your nat with your first few colossi.
This aside I have no problem if we agree to disagree, no need to always be of the same opinion. Then again, I'm blue and therefore right by definition... 
j/k of course - "safe" 3 gate builds are just evolving since PvP metagame has basicly lost 9 month due to unstoppable 4 gate, therefore there are still many things to be figured out. Especially if robo into tc or tc into robo proves to be more efficient overall....or if tc into forge (vs dts) is actually useful (I'm not convinced so far)
|
United States8476 Posts
Added some personal replays. Unfortunately, most of my replays are from the last patch, so I'll play a few more games today from the new patch.
|
On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding.
Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers.
Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later.
|
United States471 Posts
As a mid master toss who's been using this build amost exclusively in pvp, this guide is a great insight to how the build works. I do think the greatest way to deal with this build is chargelot archon. I'm not quite sure how to deal with it mid game. Obviously, abusing the terrain with extremely mobile range units against immobile melée units is probably the right move. I think in an open field, cost for cost? You'll lose against charge lot archon... But it definitely is beatable. You just have to out play your opponent and play like a boss.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 01 2011 22:24 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding. Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers. Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later.
I disagree that you can always know definitively if your opponent is 4 gating or not by 5:45. If this were true, then MC's defensive 3 gate wouldn't need a 2nd sentry, because in that build the 2nd sentry also warps in at 5:45.
|
Thank you thank you thank you! This is the best PvP guide I've ever read. I always feel like PvP guides go second by second with exacting detail up until about 7:00, and then they're like "Colossi are pretty durn good" or "Archons are awesome, get some." Leaves me feeling like I'm walking off a cliff when I get to the end of the detailed part of the build. This actually goes into significant detail about the thinking behind the build and discusses a lot of the responses you make to variations you might encounter playing the build out.
Big nerd-hugs to you for the effort you put into this. I'll absolutely be trying it out.
|
On August 01 2011 22:29 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 22:24 Geiko wrote:On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding. Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers. Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later. I disagree that you can always know definitively if your opponent is 4 gating or not by 5:45. If this were true, then MC's defensive 3 gate wouldn't need a 2nd sentry, because in that build the 2nd sentry also warps in at 5:45.
Yes that's very true. But then you can at least be sure that you are at worse dealing with a slightly delayed 4 gate : i.e. he is carefully placing his proxy pylon at a reasonnable distance, and will need to "hop" one step closer to your base. With my build, I can hold these type of 4 gates even if I teched up before 4th pylon (because of 2 FF on my sentry). Most of the time I don't even have to cancel the tech building I am making for extra ressources (though if his 4 gate is really perfectly timed, I might have to).
So I checked the timings, and with robo before pylon, I am 15-30 secs ahead of your build. You can add safety and place it after the pylon and then it hits the same timing as your robo.
I'm sorry to only be commenting on this question (early game build order) but I haven't had time to read your guide thoroughly (only skimmed through it once). It looks very well thought out and I'll be sure to comment on it in the next days.
|
i've been experimenting with this off and on for over a month now (I saw it on ladder from someone else, not from huk) (top masters on US/EU and matching vs masters KR this reset) and its pretty solid if you survive the 4gate. Thats the key, but after that, robo twilight is definitely the way
It has just so many branches you can go into after it; such as blink but being safe against the opponent DT (major problem for the standard blink play) or the standard robo styles, with option to include charge or blink earlier.
The future I think will include a lot of Blink + Immortals.. that timing attack (3 immortal mass blink) owns just about everything except charglot/archon, which isnt too common lately.
|
On August 01 2011 22:29 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 22:24 Geiko wrote:On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding. Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers. Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later. I disagree that you can always know definitively if your opponent is 4 gating or not by 5:45. If this were true, then MC's defensive 3 gate wouldn't need a 2nd sentry, because in that build the 2nd sentry also warps in at 5:45.
if he does a fake 4 gate, his tech will also be later, so I don't think there is a huge problem in playing safe (against 12 gate with saved chrono and no second gas).
|
Nice guide. The one advice I have for people is be very careful. Because of the extra gas spent on extra tech you will be very behind in units early on and are more vulnerable to one base timings.
|
United States8476 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2011 22:39 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Thank you thank you thank you! This is the best PvP guide I've ever read. I always feel like PvP guides go second by second with exacting detail up until about 7:00, and then they're like "Colossi are pretty durn good" or "Archons are awesome, get some." Leaves me feeling like I'm walking off a cliff when I get to the end of the detailed part of the build. This actually goes into significant detail about the thinking behind the build and discusses a lot of the responses you make to variations you might encounter playing the build out.
Big nerd-hugs to you for the effort you put into this. I'll absolutely be trying it out.
Thanks. It's nice to be appreciated for the work I put into this.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2011 22:45 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 22:29 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 22:24 Geiko wrote:On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding. Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers. Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later. I disagree that you can always know definitively if your opponent is 4 gating or not by 5:45. If this were true, then MC's defensive 3 gate wouldn't need a 2nd sentry, because in that build the 2nd sentry also warps in at 5:45. Yes that's very true. But then you can at least be sure that you are at worse dealing with a slightly delayed 4 gate : i.e. he is carefully placing his proxy pylon at a reasonnable distance, and will need to "hop" one step closer to your base. With my build, I can hold these type of 4 gates even if I teched up before 4th pylon (because of 2 FF on my sentry). Most of the time I don't even have to cancel the tech building I am making for extra ressources (though if his 4 gate is really perfectly timed, I might have to). So I checked the timings, and with robo before pylon, I am 15-30 secs ahead of your build. You can add safety and place it after the pylon and then it hits the same timing as your robo. I'm sorry to only be commenting on this question (early game build order) but I haven't had time to read your guide thoroughly (only skimmed through it once). It looks very well thought out and I'll be sure to comment on it in the next days.
You should experiment with that and put it into your guide.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2011 22:59 MaGiKL wrote:
Nice guide. The one advice I have for people is be very careful. Because of the extra gas spent on extra tech you will be very behind in units early on and are more vulnerable to one base timings.
I try to cover the early game attacks you could face in my guide unless you think I missed one.
|
|
|
I've been doing Geiko's 3-gate into robo then twilight. It works just fine for me so far; as soon as I scout the opponent teching rather than 4-gate, I just cut the rest of the build and throw down a robo immediately. No need to be safe against a 4-gate that isn't coming. Typically it turns into 2-gate or 3-gate robo.
|
Thanks for the guide. Don't think I have the control/multi-tasking to pull it off effectively, but I try to anyways.
|
I do this build quite often in PvP now. Nothing really strict on timing if you can hold the 4 gates, very strong build if your opponent going expand or colossus or heavy gates. I would add 1 sentry in very early to hold off the 4 gates rush
|
Hey sorry if I missed it in the guide, but I'm a little confused as to when you're getting twilight + blink against collosi builds. As far as I can tell, you'd scout high zeal count and maybe some sentries which would trigger a quick twilight/blink and then when your obs reaches his base and you confirm, your nexus would go down. However how would you play it out if you see something like 3 stalkers/2 sentries? The guy who did this followed with collosi which my obs saw. I wasn't actually playing this style (I was just sort of playing without a set game plan) but I didn't know what to expect when I saw 2 sentry/3 stalker (at like 6:40). I don't even think he was safe vs. 4 gate. Is it just one of those sub-optimal builds that throws off scouting?
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 02 2011 22:29 Huntz wrote:
Hey sorry if I missed it in the guide, but I'm a little confused as to when you're getting twilight + blink against collosi builds. As far as I can tell, you'd scout high zeal count and maybe some sentries which would trigger a quick twilight/blink and then when your obs reaches his base and you confirm, your nexus would go down. However how would you play it out if you see something like 3 stalkers/2 sentries? The guy who did this followed with collosi which my obs saw. I wasn't actually playing this style (I was just sort of playing without a set game plan) but I didn't know what to expect when I saw 2 sentry/3 stalker (at like 6:40). I don't even think he was safe vs. 4 gate. Is it just one of those sub-optimal builds that throws off scouting?
You get the twilight council as soon as you can safely. Usually, this means putting it down as soon as you can rule out a blink allin. Seeing 3 stalkers and 2 sentries doesn't tell you much about his tech choice except ruling out fast dts. 3 stalkers and 2 sentries is actually the standard composition resulting from a quick gas into 3 stalker rush opening. However, as I indicate in my guide, 2 sentries usually means no blink stalker allin or a delayed blink stalker allin, so you are free to throw down your twilight council earlier. Also, if you keep track of his gas timing and count his gas, you can actually tell the maximum number of stalkers he can have at any one time.
|
I don't understand how you can do a build that is defensive enough to hold a 4gate (I do a somewhat greedy 2gate robo build that I can usually hold a 4gate with if they don't get a pylon before ~5:30 under my ramp) and have the robo early enough to get 1 immortal by 7:00 or 2 immortals by 7:40 as required by your guide to defend a blink allin play...
I understand if they get a 2nd gas early it's a possibility, but it's just as much if not more of a possibility that they're just taking the dudes off gas right after i leave and 4gating anyways.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 05 2011 05:00 Complete wrote:
I don't understand how you can do a build that is defensive enough to hold a 4gate (I do a somewhat greedy 2gate robo build that I can usually hold a 4gate with if they don't get a pylon before ~5:30 under my ramp) and have the robo early enough to get 1 immortal by 7:00 or 2 immortals by 7:40 as required by your guide to defend a blink allin play...
I understand if they get a 2nd gas early it's a possibility, but it's just as much if not more of a possibility that they're just taking the dudes off gas right after i leave and 4gating anyways.
Your question deals more with the opening rather than the actual strategy. By your logic, no robo build can hold both a 4 gate and a blink stalker allin, which is just not true. You should be able to make a very good judgement call on whether is is going blink stalker allin or not with good scouting information. My benchmarks on getting 1 immortal by 7:00 or 2 immortals by 7:40 only applies if your opponent is doing the most optimal hardcore blink stalker allin aka the worst case scenario. That is, he must have gotten his gas right after cyber and begun mining gas the entire time. If he does that, you can effectively rule out 4 gate and do a 1 gate robo build, easily getting the immortal out in time. If he doesn't get his gas at all or gets it and doesn't mine from it, you can delay the 7:00 and 7:40 benchmarks I set by much later.
Also, you don't necessarily have to have x amount of immortals at that timing exactly, because you can survive for ~10seconds without the immortal and in my benchmarks, I actually don't account for the time your opponent needs to travel from his warpin pylon to blinking up your ramp,which can another 5-15 seconds.
Finally, you can use sentries to forcefield the bottom of the ramp, potentially delaying him because he doesn't know what's above your ramp, delaying your opponent even more.
|
Mana-Huk on shakuras (assebly) just showed what happens when both players go the build, great game!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
