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I love this style of play, and have been using it pretty successfully vs Diamond and Master League players in custom 1v1s. Thanks for the very detailed guide. Would I be able to point something out though? Because of the patch not too long ago that gave immortals 6 range, there is a hard counter to this early/mid game blink style, which is a very fast second robo.
A fast second robo can punish blink tech builds pretty easily. To make it easy to think about, we are assuming neither player 4 gates, and both players end up with 1 robo and 3 gateways, and decide to go for the fastest tech from that point forward (build order battle). If player A gets a twilight council (150/100) then blink (150,150), thats 300 minerals and 250 that isn't being used on units for the period of time immediately after a 3 gate robo. Compare that to player B, who drops a fast second robo (200/100) and then makes an immortal as soon as it finishes (250/100) which totals to 450 minerals and 200 gas but leaves you with an extra immortal and increased production capacity.
Let me add in the build times too.
Twilight council takes 50 seconds to bulid, and blink takes 140 seconds to research which totals 190 seconds of build time and leaves you 300 minerals and 250 gas in the hole for 3 gates 1 robo 1 twilight and blink.
Robo takes 65 seconds to build and an immortal takes 55 seconds to produce, which totals 120 seconds of build time and leaves you 450 minerals and 250 gas in the hole for 3 gates, 2 robo,1 additional immortal, and 70 seconds to spare.
Wait, 190-120 = 70... which means there is still enough time for a second immortal from the second robo. Meaning that player B will be at LEAST 2 immortals up on his opponent by the time blink pops, if not more. The only "flaw" here is that you cannot produce probes, pylons, and an army out of 3 gate 2 robo, so its more of a 2 gate 2 robo, and is still situational (cough works best vs fast blink cough). You can get imperfect unit warp ins with primarily zealot forces however.
By the time the second immortal is out of player B's additional robo, he can start moving towards his opponents base with his forces and produce a warm prism and another immortal to back everything up. Against a primarily blink stalker force player B will always win straight up, and will always win in a base race. At this point player B can drop a twilight council then a nexus behind his pressure, and continue into 2base / late game.
I only posted this opening because it does happen to hard counter most blink stalker openings (blink stalker all in, blink stalker expand, blink stalker + obs pressure). I hope it was helpful, and I don't just end up looking like a big noob, but either way, thanks for the guide.
I can also upload some replays tomorrow.
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On December 12 2011 12:25 whitefluff wrote:
Against a primarily blink stalker force player B will always win straight up, and will always win in a base race. At this point player B can drop a twilight council then a nexus behind his pressure, and continue into 2base / late game.
Why exactly will he always win a baserace vs blink stalkers?
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United States8477 Posts
On December 12 2011 12:25 whitefluff wrote:
I love this style of play, and have been using it pretty successfully vs Diamond and Master League players in custom 1v1s. Thanks for the very detailed guide. Would I be able to point something out though? Because of the patch not too long ago that gave immortals 6 range, there is a hard counter to this early/mid game blink style, which is a very fast second robo.
A fast second robo can punish blink tech builds pretty easily. To make it easy to think about, we are assuming neither player 4 gates, and both players end up with 1 robo and 3 gateways, and decide to go for the fastest tech from that point forward (build order battle). If player A gets a twilight council (150/100) then blink (150,150), thats 300 minerals and 250 that isn't being used on units for the period of time immediately after a 3 gate robo. Compare that to player B, who drops a fast second robo (200/100) and then makes an immortal as soon as it finishes (250/100) which totals to 450 minerals and 200 gas but leaves you with an extra immortal and increased production capacity.
Let me add in the build times too.
Twilight council takes 50 seconds to bulid, and blink takes 140 seconds to research which totals 190 seconds of build time and leaves you 300 minerals and 250 gas in the hole for 3 gates 1 robo 1 twilight and blink.
Robo takes 65 seconds to build and an immortal takes 55 seconds to produce, which totals 120 seconds of build time and leaves you 450 minerals and 250 gas in the hole for 3 gates, 2 robo,1 additional immortal, and 70 seconds to spare.
Wait, 190-120 = 70... which means there is still enough time for a second immortal from the second robo. Meaning that player B will be at LEAST 2 immortals up on his opponent by the time blink pops, if not more. The only "flaw" here is that you cannot produce probes, pylons, and an army out of 3 gate 2 robo, so its more of a 2 gate 2 robo, and is still situational (cough works best vs fast blink cough). You can get imperfect unit warp ins with primarily zealot forces however.
By the time the second immortal is out of player B's additional robo, he can start moving towards his opponents base with his forces and produce a warm prism and another immortal to back everything up. Against a primarily blink stalker force player B will always win straight up, and will always win in a base race. At this point player B can drop a twilight council then a nexus behind his pressure, and continue into 2base / late game.
I only posted this opening because it does happen to hard counter most blink stalker openings (blink stalker all in, blink stalker expand, blink stalker + obs pressure). I hope it was helpful, and I don't just end up looking like a big noob, but either way, thanks for the guide.
I can also upload some replays tomorrow.
Very heavily theorycraft. First, you'd first have to scout the twilight council in order to even consider any sort of double robo play. Against anything else, it puts you very far behind.
Assuming the best case scenario: Your scout your opponent's robo/twilight a full minute earlier than he scouts your double robo. Then, there's a variety of tricks to still come out ahead for the robo/twilight player. First, you can just switch to heavy zealot/sentry to combat the absurdly high immortal count if your opponent tries to expand. Or you can sentry contain your opponent, as without a collosi, archon, or blink, it becomes hard to get out of your base even with a warp prism. You can also lure your opponent's units into his main with a blink and attack his natural at the same time with zealot/sentry, then forcefield the ramp and blink back out. But perhaps the biggest argument against this double robo play is that you can make enough immortals with single robo. The double robo doesn't add much and you'd be overcommiting to immortals on double robo.
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@ whitefluff, as a general rule you never want more then 1 robo per base. you dont have enough gas to support more and focussing on too many robo units leaves you vulnerable to tech switches.
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On December 12 2011 14:35 NrGmonk wrote:
Very heavily theorycraft. First, you'd first have to scout the twilight council in order to even consider any sort of double robo play. Against anything else, it puts you very far behind.
Assuming the best case scenario: Your scout your opponent's robo/twilight a full minute earlier than he scouts your double robo. Then, there's a variety of tricks to still come out ahead for the robo/twilight player. First, you can just switch to heavy zealot/sentry to combat the absurdly high immortal count if your opponent tries to expand. Or you can sentry contain your opponent, as without a collosi, archon, or blink, it becomes hard to get out of your base even with a warp prism. You can also lure your opponent's units into his main with a blink and attack his natural at the same time with zealot/sentry, then forcefield the ramp and blink back out. But perhaps the biggest argument against this double robo play is that you can make enough immortals with single robo. The double robo doesn't add much and you'd be overcommiting to immortals on double robo.
I mean, it isn't theorycraft at all... I've used this many times, I just never wrote it down until now. But yes, everything you said is correct and going double robo is risky, though I think you've dismissed this without even trying it. The whole point of getting a fast second robo is to apply pressure on your opponent before expanding. And if player A switches to zealot production, so can you, because you still have 3 gates.
There is no reason to overcommit to immortal once you get to 2 bases, as this is a 1 base counter to blink builds. Once you take an expansion, you can always drop more gateways and use the second robo for utility, like for observers or warp prisms.
EDIT: I'll post some replays this afternoon or tonight, whenever I get home.
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Italy12248 Posts
Regarding the decision to go colossus vs chargelot/archon, i would do this off the top of my head (assuming 2base vs 2base):
1) If we go mirror builds, depends on the map. Easy third ----> colossus, harder third ----> chargelot/archon.
2) If he opens colossus expand, go chargelot/archon since i wont catch up to his colossus count.
3) If he opens immortal expand, depends on the map.
4) If he opens stargate, go chargelot/archon.
Does this make any sense?
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United States8477 Posts
On December 13 2011 00:46 Teoita wrote:
Regarding the decision to go colossus vs chargelot/archon, i would do this off the top of my head (assuming 2base vs 2base):
1) If we go mirror builds, depends on the map. Easy third ----> colossus, harder third ----> chargelot/archon.
2) If he opens colossus expand, go chargelot/archon since i wont catch up to his colossus count.
3) If he opens immortal expand, depends on the map.
4) If he opens stargate, go chargelot/archon.
Does this make any sense?
Teoita already PM'd me about this, but I'll guess I'll just copy+paste my response here.
A general rule is that a vast majority of the time it depends on the map and I usually decide on my final unit composition based on the map in the case of a relatively even game. I'm answering the following questions based on this rule and the assumption that you always want to play a macro game.
1. Yes
2. No, you should still go colossi depending on the map. You will need to use your map control/harass ability/earlier nexus to get an advantage.
3. Same as 2
4. No, voidrays + ground support do not beat colossi + ground support. A large amount of voidrays + colossi usually beats standard ground + colossi. But archons and phoenix can change that around for the colossi/ground player.
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Chargelot archon opening:
I haven't dealt with this much. I'll get back to you. You can probably deal with it the same way you deal with dts though as in harrassing and engaging the army and blinking back. I'll update the guide after I have more experience with this.
Did you ever have any development on this? Lost to it and I'm not sure of the proper response still.
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EPT
