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United States8477 Posts
On September 16 2011 23:24 Teoita wrote:
Thanks a lot for the feedback. One more question: as a general rule of thumb, i would go immortal first if i see a second gas, and obs first if i don't? Are there any other hthings i should look for when making that decision (other than poking his ramp and seeing the stalker/zealot count)?
That's more your call. I almost always go obs first, as versus 2 gas builds, I would go 1 gate robo. If you go immortal first versus 1 gate robo into collosi, you'll be more behind than if you're different. Play around to see what you're comfortable with.
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I can't fully get my head around the intricacies of PvP but this thread has already helped me alot in this mu. I dont really have any questions I just wanted to say thanks!
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How do you think the new patch has changed this style? Do you think its still necessary to check for a blink allin before putting down the twilight council?
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Has anybody else been losing lately doing chargelot+archon vs mass colossus? I used to roll this composition as long as I expo'd at the same time or earlier, but I don't know what it is, lately I see a colossus army and think "ok easy win" and charge into it, and all my stuff gets killed and I lose. I'm very confused right now. Is there some 'magic number' of colossus at which point chargelot+archon stops winning? If so, what do I transition to and when?
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On September 24 2011 11:04 GomJabbar wrote:
Has anybody else been losing lately doing chargelot+archon vs mass colossus? I used to roll this composition as long as I expo'd at the same time or earlier, but I don't know what it is, lately I see a colossus army and think "ok easy win" and charge into it, and all my stuff gets killed and I lose. I'm very confused right now. Is there some 'magic number' of colossus at which point chargelot+archon stops winning? If so, what do I transition to and when?
Colossus generally get strong when you have like 4+ of them but I think if you mix in some immortals as well you should be ok. Immortals + archons just tank colossus damage so well.
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United States8477 Posts
On September 24 2011 11:04 GomJabbar wrote:
Has anybody else been losing lately doing chargelot+archon vs mass colossus? I used to roll this composition as long as I expo'd at the same time or earlier, but I don't know what it is, lately I see a colossus army and think "ok easy win" and charge into it, and all my stuff gets killed and I lose. I'm very confused right now. Is there some 'magic number' of colossus at which point chargelot+archon stops winning? If so, what do I transition to and when?
Collosi versus gateway immortal is very hard to predict sometimes. You have to look at each game individually. If you post a replay, I bet I can shed some light.
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Loving this! I'm in gold league and its really challenging for me to pull this style off, because of its reactive nature from scouting information (really stretches my multitasking to its limits) But i like it even tho it has cost me quite a few losses from macro failure.
Anyways, i was wondering if there are any openers, post 1.4, that will get you your robo earlier and still keep you safe from 4 gate? I've done some searching on tl, but the builds i found were kinda outdated and i werent sure if they're still valid.
Thanks again for a great post
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Italy12247 Posts
What would you do build wise vs a phoenix allin? I'm not quite sure what the optimal setup is...i feel like both immortals and sentries are quite useeless vs phoenixes because they get lifted easily, with the patch blink barely comes in time and even then if you invest in both a robo just for 1-2 observers and a council you risk being heavily outnumbered. Do you have any tips?
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United States8477 Posts
On October 01 2011 02:14 Teoita wrote:
What would you do build wise vs a phoenix allin? I'm not quite sure what the optimal setup is...i feel like both immortals and sentries are quite useeless vs phoenixes because they get lifted easily, with the patch blink barely comes in time and even then if you invest in both a robo just for 1-2 observers and a council you risk being heavily outnumbered. Do you have any tips?
You can get twilight safely versus phoenix and you should. Try not to let your opponent kill your sentry/sentries with phoenix. Keep track of his army with your obs. Focus phoenix with your stalkers during a fight if you can. Keep your macro up. Post a replay if you have further troubles.
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Good build.. some small little kinks but they are really just preference.. I enjoyed the little warning you put in there for the lower level players and the fact that you thought it would take someone around 30 minutes to read... I don't know anyone who would take 30 minutes to read that now iamke55's posts take about 30 minutes to completely understand :D
BUT i got off topic, THIS IS a good build over all. Especially with the new patch.
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United States8477 Posts
On October 01 2011 19:24 Wak.Turtle wrote:
Good build.. some small little kinks but they are really just preference.. I enjoyed the little warning you put in there for the lower level players and the fact that you thought it would take someone around 30 minutes to read... I don't know anyone who would take 30 minutes to read that now iamke55's posts take about 30 minutes to completely understand :D
BUT i got off topic, THIS IS a good build over all. Especially with the new patch.
Iono, how long does it take to read?
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so you'll always be at a disadvantage if your opponent does a greedy mirror build (i.e. gate robo gate gate) like huk vs kiwi on shattered?
should kiwi have just sat in his base and pump out a couple immortals while delaying his blink?
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The thing that frustrates me about this style is that I feel so weak to so many things. A good chargelot/archon timing, phoenix play and colossus all ins are all really tricky to handle properly. You mention that you should be able to deny all phoenix harass with the build, but usually I end up in a weird spot where I have 3-4 stalkers just as a couple of phoenix get to my base. I don't have the damage output yet to stop them from sniping a few probes, and my robo loses a ton of utility.
So far I've found that immediately chrono boosting out a warp prism and sneaking it out of your base is super useful, because in the early game if you pressure with your main army at his natural he needs to have his phoenix with his ground army in order to have a chance. This opens up a good timing for a zealot drop into the main, but it's very tricky, as the phoenix can get free reign over your base for a bit (There are some good replays of people using this warp prism timing vs axslav).
I just wish there was a way I could feel more comfortable using this build.
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Hey, apologies for the semi-big necro post, but this guide doesn't seem to be outdated at all so whatever. Anyway-
In the Colossus into Macro game section, you acknowledge that Chargelot/Archon will consistently beat Colossi in foods under maxed. However, I'm unclear as to what to do stop the other guy from GETTING to that max on a lot of maps.
For example, on Metalopolis, what's stopping him from just sitting back on his main and his natural and getting a 200/200 army and then pushing straight into you while taking another base behind his aggression? I'd assume that you'd just want to take a 3rd pretty early, but would you ever want to get a fourth? Would you want to transition into colossi yourself? I don't -think- a baserace would work out at this point since you'd be working with much less of your main army and he'd presumably have blink at this point.
I dunno, this is the one part of the PvP matchup that I don't understand. Thanks in advance for the help!
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I would love to hear about the new ideas you have with this build monk. I know you mentioned you have them so I want to see/hear em!
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United States8477 Posts
On December 12 2011 03:37 Zarent wrote:
Hey, apologies for the semi-big necro post, but this guide doesn't seem to be outdated at all so whatever. Anyway-
In the Colossus into Macro game section, you acknowledge that Chargelot/Archon will consistently beat Colossi in foods under maxed. However, I'm unclear as to what to do stop the other guy from GETTING to that max on a lot of maps.
For example, on Metalopolis, what's stopping him from just sitting back on his main and his natural and getting a 200/200 army and then pushing straight into you while taking another base behind his aggression? I'd assume that you'd just want to take a 3rd pretty early, but would you ever want to get a fourth? Would you want to transition into colossi yourself? I don't -think- a baserace would work out at this point since you'd be working with much less of your main army and he'd presumably have blink at this point.
I dunno, this is the one part of the PvP matchup that I don't understand. Thanks in advance for the help!
On December 12 2011 03:41 vaderseven wrote:
I would love to hear about the new ideas you have with this build monk. I know you mentioned you have them so I want to see/hear em!
The guide is a bit outdated in many ways, just 4 months after I wrote it. A lot has changed since then. There was a patch. Some strategies got more popular, some more outdated. The most popularly played maps have changed. There's a lot of new tactics that have popped up. A lot of these things have shifted my previous recommendations. For example, there are some situations where I highly recommend a colossi transition instead of the zealot/archon/immortal transition. That being said, I probably won't update this guide in the near future, mostly because it doesn't interest me at the moment. Maybe next year.
Versus colossi camping on 2 base, there's a variety of options. But first I'd like to preface it by saying that on some maps, a colossi transition is just simply the better transition. These are mostly maps that have a very easily defended 3rd, such as calm before the storm and antiga shipyards. A map like xelnaga caverns is a perfect example of a map that doesn't have an easily defended 3rd.
Anyways, vs 2 base colossi, if he's on maxing on colossi on 2 bases, you can heavily outupgrade him and attempt to flank. Versus an army maxed off of single robo, your oppnoent will only have around 6 colossi by the time he's maxed, which is workable. With superior economy and good gateway reinforcements, you'll do well versus even a maxed army. The problem is when your opponent is on around 10 colossi, usually produced off of 2 robo. However, this is generally not safe from the colossi player, as a zealot/archon/immortal allin is very potent if your opponent skimps on units early on, especially if he doesn't make a gateway wall.
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Hey Monk, do you open 1gate robo into 3gate obs blink now, or still 3gate into robo?
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On December 12 2011 04:48 NrGmonk wrote:
Anyways, vs 2 base colossi, if he's on maxing on colossi on 2 bases, you can heavily outupgrade him and attempt to flank. Versus an army maxed off of single robo, your oppnoent will only have around 6 colossi by the time he's maxed, which is workable. With superior economy and good gateway reinforcements, you'll do well versus even a maxed army. [b]The problem is when your opponent is on around 10 colossi, usually produced off of 2 robo. However, this is generally not safe from the colossi player, as a zealot/archon/immortal allin is very potent if your opponent skimps on units early on, especially if he doesn't make a gateway wall.[b]
So how would this zealot/archon/immortal all-in work? In my experience, just bumrushing straight up into the natural when the opponent has colossi never works, even if he has ~6 and a small gateway wall. In chokes they seem to be too good unless you can get a flank, but that's impossible given the campiness of the composition?
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United States8477 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:06 Oreo7 wrote:
Hey Monk, do you open 1gate robo into 3gate obs blink now, or still 3gate into robo?
Depends on scouting
On December 12 2011 05:32 Zarent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 04:48 NrGmonk wrote:
Anyways, vs 2 base colossi, if he's on maxing on colossi on 2 bases, you can heavily outupgrade him and attempt to flank. Versus an army maxed off of single robo, your oppnoent will only have around 6 colossi by the time he's maxed, which is workable. With superior economy and good gateway reinforcements, you'll do well versus even a maxed army. [b]The problem is when your opponent is on around 10 colossi, usually produced off of 2 robo. However, this is generally not safe from the colossi player, as a zealot/archon/immortal allin is very potent if your opponent skimps on units early on, especially if he doesn't make a gateway wall.[b] So how would this zealot/archon/immortal all-in work? In my experience, just bumrushing straight up into the natural when the opponent has colossi never works, even if he has ~6 and a small gateway wall. In chokes they seem to be too good unless you can get a flank, but that's impossible given the campiness of the composition?
You allin when he has 1-2 colossi.
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On December 12 2011 05:59 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 05:06 Oreo7 wrote:
Hey Monk, do you open 1gate robo into 3gate obs blink now, or still 3gate into robo? Depends on scouting
Do you go 3gate when you scout early gate or only 1gas? Generally I go 1gate against anything except a 10 or 11 gate. I find I can hold the standard 4wg rush fine off 1gate if I get out 1zel 2 stalks then 1 sentry.
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EPT
