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Hello, this is NrGmonk again bringing you another guide on PvP. This time, it's an extensive guide on the relatively new robo twilight style of PvP. This is also the first guide that walks you through the entire game and addresses late game PvP. Keep in mind that this guide is a work in progress and I'll be continuously updating it.
Warning: Lower level players beware. This is a high level build/style and will cause lots of dumb losses if you don't have the basics of the game down, such as macro, blink stalker micro, and game sense. However, for anyone who wants to play at the highest level, this is the guide for you. Also, huge blocks of text incoming. This guide will take you about 30 minutes to finish reading.
Until about 3 or 4 months ago, PVP was riddled with 4 gates, collosi wars, and build order wins. However, recently a new style has emerged quietly. Players who may not follow starcraft or PVP as closely as I do will not have noticed the slight metagame shift, but it is definitely there. This is the style that koreans have been devloping for the past few months. This is the style that predominates the top of each and every ladder. This is the style that Huk has called "the future of PvP." And with that I present to you the robo twilight macro style.
History of the build: + Show Spoiler +The first instance I ever saw a robo twilight build was when MC used one in a korean tournament that wasn't gsl back around october of 2010. Then, I saw done by Kiwikaki consistently and so I tried it out for myself. Because I didn't really understand the build, I thought it weak and abandoned it. It wasn't until gstl season 3 when i revisited this build. In the first day of oGs vs Startale, ST.Squirtle's archon zealot stalker immortal army rolled over oGs.Hero's equally supplied zealot stalker collosi army very convincingly. Then a few days later, St.Ace stomped Mouz.Hasuobs convincingly with the same army versus collosi. This got me thinking that it wasn't a fluke and that this style had lots of merit so i began experimenting a lot with it to what I have now. Synopsis: + Show Spoiler +This build is meant to be a safe macro style blink stalker opening that transitions into the late game. Your endgame army should consist of zealot/archon/stalker/immortal in different ratios depending on your opponent's unit composition. This guide will attempt to guide you through to the late game and help you with decision making. Keep in mind that this guide summaries my way of playing robo twilight and is not meant to be the definitive way to play this style. Why this build?: + Show Spoiler +The biggest advantages of this build are as follows: - The counters of this build aren't as hard. Whereas quick colossus vs fast phoenix can seem impossible and blink stalker can immediately lose to dts, there is no way to get an insurmountable advantage against this build.
- Does not depend as much on gas count. This is basically addressing the fact that Collosi war mirrors depend heavily on who spent the least gas before collosi. Because of this, if you lose the early game build order war, the consequences are not as severe.
- Very skill based strategy. Compared to a collosi build in which it's very obvious what to do at all times, this style requires lots of decision making and has a lot of divergence. Also, your success is directly related to how well you can control blink stalkers and how well you can harrass with them.
How to open: + Show Spoiler +Pick your favorite opening PvP build that transitions well into a robo twilight build. My recommendations include MC's defensive 3 gate or a quick gas into 3 stalker rush build. Quick robo builds for defensive purposes aren't ideal, because they force you to get too many zealots and immortals and you don't want to be locked into immortal for the early stages of the game. However, 1 gate robo vs 2 quick gas is an ideal opening for this style. You get a quick robo while not being forced into immortals for defensive purposes. Geiko's defensive 3 gate is another good choice as long as you don't get too many stalkers early on thus delaying your robo. The timing of the robo is very important for this build, as you want scouting information as soon as possible. Mid game build: + Show Spoiler +I will not give a set in stone build as I feel that every game should be different. However, this is a general outline of a sample build. Add your robo as soon as you feel that you are safe from a 4 gate. Your infrastrcuture now should be 3 gates and a robo. Add a twilight council as soon as you feel you are safe from a blink stalker allin. If too many people request a concrete build, I'll post one. Mid game thought process: + Show Spoiler +6:00 At around this time you should have realized your opponent didn't do the fastest 4 gate against you. Feel free to walk your stalkers out of your base a little as the only thing that can catch and kill stalkers this early in the game are enemy flanking stalkers. The 2 threats you should be worrying about right now are a delayed 4 gate and some type of expand build. You should be able to hold a delayed 4 gate rather easily as long as you keep those inital poking stalkers safe. Poke a scouting probe into his base to see whether he has an expo and his unit composition. You can delay this poke if your opponent opened a 2 gas build. If he expo'd, cancel any tech and go for a 4 gate to try to end the game. The read you make with your probe here is very important and inflences your decisions trhoughout the game.
2 zealots: You can probably rule out the earliest blink stalker allins 3 or more zealots: Probably not a blink build at all. Suspect collosi or dts or collosi. 2 sentries: Your opponent is being defensive and you can probably rule out blink stalker allins 3 stalkers: Depending on his opening, this may or may not tell you anything. If he opening 3 stalker rush, this tells you absolutely nothing 4 stalkers: Robo blink or blink build with 75% certainty. 5 or more stalkers: robo blink or blink build with 99% certainty more than 250 worth of gas: rule out any type of super fast dts
6:40 The only 2 viable threats at this stage of the game are an extremely delayed 4 gate or a blink stalker allin. The absolute fastest realistic blink stalker allin comes at 6:40 with 8 stalkers max. Suspect this if your opponent got an earlish gas. Most blink stalker allins come at 7:10 with 11 stalkers max. Based on his gas timing, your read with your probe, your observer, and any other scouting you may have, determine if this is a blink stalker build, allin or not. Refer to the blink stalker allin section for a continued explanation of how to deal with this. The rest of your section assumes you've ruled out blink stalker allin.
When your observer comes out, escort your observer across the map with some stalkers as far as you judge to be safe. This is a little vague so let me explain. By escorting your observer, you both protect your own observer from being sniped and catch any enemy observers. The 2 downsides to this are that you might get caught by delayed blink stalkers or your enemy can see your stalker count and make a read that you're going blink. That is why you don't want to be too aggressive with your stalkers and why you might not want to bring all of them. However, if you've made a read that he isn't going blink stalker, say you see tons of zealots, feel free to escort the observer all the way to his base. Do not lose this observer, even if you have to take a roundabout path as this build heavily relies on the read you make with your observer.The rest of the guide assumes you've compeletely scouted your opponent and know exactly what build he went. After you've scouted his build: + Show Spoiler + Blink stalker allin: + Show Spoiler + Ok, so you've made a read that it's a blink stalker build, but you're not sure if it's allin or not. You may or may not have to skip your observer to survive this depending on your opening. If you do not have an immortal out by the time the quickest versions of this build hit(around 7:00), you're dead. If you do not have 2 immortals by the time later versions of this build hit(around 7:40), you're dead. You also must have a comprable army to your opponent, so keep your macro up on 3 gates and 1 robo. Position your units so that he cannot easily pick off your units and keep any zealots you may have in the back of your army.
Delay your twilight council until you are sure you are safe. If your opponent doesn't have a robo or a forge, then you can go dts. If not, research blink. If your opponent has expanded, allin him and you will surely win with better econ/tech. If he hasn't, you can contain him and expand behind that. However, keep in mind that you should be miles ahead and he shouldn't be able to break your contain. From here on out refer to the blink stalker expo section of the guide if it somehow gets to late game. Blink stalker expo: + Show Spoiler +The general consensus is that a robo twilight build is the best response to a blink build. Generally, I agree with this statement, but I don't think it's always necessarily true. For example, if the blinking player puts down a very early nexus on a big map, say before your twilight council even starts, he can get an econ advantage before your blink finishes. If the robo twilight player tries to allin, the blink player can proceed to delay the robo twilight player's army with a superior stalker count and then fight head on with his econ advantage. An example of this is in Huk vs MC in the replay section of this guide. Huk accidentally let MC see his 1 gate robo build and thus MC was able to throw down a nexus with 3 units on the field.
However, generally the robo twilight player does have a significant advantage over the blink stalker player. Once you are safe and know your opponent isn't going to be able to kill you by blinking up the ramp, you should assess the situation. The key buildings you are looking for are a robo and a nexus from your opponent. If your opponent has no robo or forge and tries to expand, you can try for dark templars while pressuring your opponent.
If your opponent has expanded way before yourself, you must attack your opponent or his econ lead will become too large. Add a 4th gateway and bring a probe with your push. Make sure your army moves as a whole with immortals leading the charge. You do not want your opponent to pick off any stray stalkers of your own with his stalkers. Try to time your push so you hit right after his nexus finishes.
If your opponent has a similar but still faster expo timing than yourself, make a judgement call on whether to allin him or try to play the macro game. Factors on whether to allin include the distance to his natural and whether either of you lost any units in the early game.
If your opponent has not expanded so far, pressure him and expand yourself while not making probes yourself. You should be able to defend any allins and use your econ lead to win the game. Refer to the robo twilight mirror section if your opponent goes for robo/twilight unit composition.
If your opponent transitions to chargelots, expand, don't make additional probes, and keep your stalker count about 2 above his. This allows you to keep map control and harass him and pick off units until charge finishes. Meanwhile, keep your zealot count up so that it's similar to your opponent's but do not research charge. The reasoning is that if charge isn't worth it if your opponent has charge and you have equal numbers, because the zealots will be slamming into each other anyways. If your opponent adds a templar archives, add one for yourself and mirror him with a better econ. Robo twilight mirror: + Show Spoiler +A complete mirror can get kind of tricky as very small things can affect the outcome of the game. In a mirror where both players go some variation of robo twilight, you can actually expand despite it being a mirror. You have a few advantages as the expander/defender. First is that he has to walk all the way across the map where he can be vulnerable. Second is that although his gateway units reinforce instantly, his immortals cannot. Next, your opponent will only attack you after he warps in a wave of units from a proxy pylon. This gives you an extra 5-10 seconds to warp in your own units. Finally, as the defender, you can get into a better position than your opponent and can cut him off with forcefields if he tries to attack into you. With all these defender's advantages, you should be able to overcome the deficit that is paying 300 extra minerals for a big overpriced pylon.
The first only works if your opponent either overmade zealots in the early game or lost a few units in the early game. Also, the map must be large. Throw down your nexus after you confirm the builds and from then on make nothing but stalkers. Do not add addition probes until you see your opponent expand as well and add a 4th gateway. If your opponent tries to allin you, slow him down by engaging with your blink stalkers and blinking back when his non-blink stalker units catch up. Repeat this until he gets to your base at which time you should have warped in zealots and at least one immortal. This works because if you have a higher blink stalker count by at least 2, you can force engagments in which the rest of his army cannot fight in. By doing this you can at the very least slow him down and at the very most pick off some units along the way. By the time your opponent gets to your base, your econ will have kicked in to directly engage his army. focus fire his immortals with your stalkers and once those are gone reinforce with stalkers.
The other method works on almost any map that doesn't have an insanely wide choke into your natural, but works especially well on maps with small chokes. Build 3 sentries and fill in the rest with zealot/immortal/stalker. When your opponent attacks, cut his units in half and procede to kill half his army at a time. Again, do not add addition probes until you see your opponent expand as well and add a 4th gateway.
The rest of this section assumes that both you and your opponent have expanded and you're now 2 base vs 2 base. As soon as you see your opponent has his expansion, throw up a forge and mass chornoboost probes. The next part is what I like to call stalker wars, similar to viking wars in tvt. You want to idealy make just enough stalkers so that you have about 2-3 more than your opponent. Doing so will ensure map control, make it easier for you to scout your opponent, and make it feel much safer to do whatever you want at home. Although stalkers are weaker in a final fight, have just 2 more stalkers than your opponent and 2 less zealots won't make too much of a difference. However, be aware that having 10 more than your opponent could cause you to lose the straight up fight.
Focus on upgrading attack from your one forge. Attack upgrades give much more bonus than either armor or shields, boosting units like archons and immortals greatly. Two forges can leave you open to timing attacks and weaken your overall army.
Scout your opponent diligently. Your opponent can still do many versions of 2 base timings. Things you want to look out for include: His probe prodcution, his unit composition and army count, his forge count, whether he has/is upgrading charge, whether he has a dt shrine or templar archives, his gateway count. Respond accordingly to this scouting information.
As soon as you feel safe to do so (this is pretty subjective), switch to a zealot/archon/immortal army. Personally, I never make a zealot until I see my opponent has zealots.
Do not rush charge. In smaller numbers of zealots vs charging zealots, all you have to do is match his zealot count and be reasonably safe.
Do not rush your 3rd and 4th gas. While getting earlier gas might mean 1 extra archon in your army, getting more minerals allows you to be more safe from timings. In addition, you will have extra minerals for an earlier 3rd nexus. If you don't rush your 3rd and 4th gas, you can also delay your templar archives for archons.
Try to time your gateways along with your opponent's. That is, try to add them after your opponent does, but don't delay them too much. With good macro, you can support 6 gateways, a robo, and a forge on 2 base while trying to take a 3rd.
Don't go over 55 probes on 2 base. Your main should mine out rather fast. Anything over 55 probes is a waste, because you'd rather secure your 3rd safely and earlier rather than get it later and instantly saturate it.
Your army should consist of mostly zealot/archon with stalkers left over from the early game and a few immortals sprinkled in. Add more immortals for maps with more chokes and if your opponent has lots of stalkers. However, you should never go over 6 immortals in a 200 supply army. The immortals are just for cleaning up stalkers after the zealot/archon have killed each other and for some ranged damage. In a fight, reinforce with all zealots, as they charge directly into the battle, have a low cd on warpgates, do the most damage out of any unit you can warp, and protect your stalkers/immortals from theirs.
Watch out for dts by having an obs or 2 in your army and making a cannon at all your bases.
A collosi switch from your opponent is suicide as he'll get them too late and in too few number. If you see collosi, add more blink stalkers into your army and snipe them. Also, if you scout he has switched collosi, take a very greedy third as his investment into collosi(robo bay + range) won't have paid off until he has at least 3. Collosi opening: + Show Spoiler +As soon as you make a read that your opponent is going collosi, throw down your nexus at your natural. You can make this read by either seeing a collosi, seeing a robo bay, or seeing an observer plus a medium number of zealots. Also, start chornoing probes and rallying to your expansion while continuing to produce stalkers off of 3 gates. As your expansion is about to go up, add one gateway, bringing you up to 4. About 2 minutes after your expansion goes up, add 2 more gates, bringing the total to 6. Poke at your opponent to see if you can pick anything off, but don't risk any stalkers. Stay close to your opponent's main atl all times. This does one of two things: Your opponent will feel pressured and delay his expo or you will be in position to base trade if your opponent decides to allin your base. Now at this point, your opponent will either try to one base allin you or attempt to put up an expansion. Collosi one base allin: + Show Spoiler + Now's the time to base trade. As soon as your opponent leaves blink into his base and focus his probes as they're trying to escape. Your main goal will be trying to prevent as many probes as you can from escaping. Also, make a second observer for scouting after the dust settles in the base trade. Right before your opponent reaches you base, pull all the probes from your natural and move them to somewhere safe, splitting them up. If your opponent pulled all his probes for the allin, pull all of yours as well. Now, because you're running on 2 bases with aroudn 35-40 probes and still 2 gas, you should have an excess of minerals make at least 2 nexuses across the map from each other. Your opponent won't be able to leave his last pylon/nexus he probably build at your old base. You should be able to win from here as you have a better econ and map control.
Alternatively, if your opponent allins you very late, you can actually engage him directly with zealot stalker. Huk actually engaged a much bigger army once with zealot stalker archon and came out ahead. Collosi into macro game: + Show Spoiler +Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. The reason you can directly get to this composition is that it has a high fixed cost but low variable cost. Twilight council/blink/charge/templar archives is way more expensive than robo bay/range upgrade, but you can get 22 food of chargelot/archon(7 zealot/2 archon) for the same price you get 18 food of collosi. Thus, you use blink stalker both in order to get an econ advantage and to delay your opponent enough to get over that inital fixed cost hump. Many of you will not believe this, but try it out in a unit tester and see for yourself.
When your opponent puts his nexus down, do not trust that he's trying to play a macro game. For all you know, he could be putting down the nexus and then cancel and allin you. Or alternatively not cancel and still allin you. Whatever the case, keep producing nothing but blink stalker until the nexus finishes and you see him producing probes.
From when your opponent first puts down his nexus to when he finally gets blink stalkers for himself or when he has just too many immortal/ranged collosi, harrass him with blink stalkers. Try to pick off fringe pylons in his base or even a tech building if he built it too close to the edge of his main. Split your stalkers up and use them like medivac drops, pulling your opponent's army to his main and then attack his natural probes with another set of blink stalkers.
As you see your opponent's nexus go down, throw down your 3rd and 4th gas, but don't add anymore infrastrucutre. When you see your opponent's nexus finish and see him producing probes, you can be resonablely sure that he's not going to allin you. It wouldn't make sense for him anyways and you've had a much better econ for so long. In fact, it's quite normal to be 10 probes up versus your opponent, if not more. At this point, add a forge, a templar archives, start charge, and begin pure zealot/archon/immortal production. Your army should be the 15-20 stalkers you have from early game and the rest all zealot/archon/immortal. Do not overmake immortals, especially if your opponent isn't going many blink stalkers to counter your blink stalkers. The upside of getting blink stalkers from your opponent's perspective is that he gest to deny blink stalker harrass better. The downside is that his overall army will be weaker.
Don't go over 55 probes on 2 base. Your main should mine out rather fast. Anything over 55 probes is a waste, because you'd rather secure your 3rd safely and earlier rather than get it later and instantly saturate it.
The key concept to the end game of this style is that your army is better until your opponent maxes out or he gets really good upgrades. Thus, you want to force engagements in the mid game by aggressively expanding or attacking when you're close to maxed. With that in mind, take your 3rd around when you have 10 or so zealots and 1 or 2 archons. This may sound like suicide, but as you get more experienced with the style, you'll being to learn how strong the unit composition is versus collosi based armies.
If your opponent tries to match your 3rd base timing, attack him with everything you have and you should easily win the game. Try to line this attack up with an upgrade or his third finishing. If your opponent delays his third so that he has a fairly high collosi count, add gateways, wait for yourself to be close to max and win with an attack.
The most important aspect of a chargelot/archon composition vs a collosi composition is positioning. A wide area will allow all your zealots and archons to attack while they spread out to avoid collosi splash damage. It also allows your blink stalkers to blink into his army and target collosi/diversify collosi splash damage. A narrow choke means exactly the opposite and can be horrible for this composition. This is why it should be your goal to force fights in wide areas.
During the fight, you battle micro should be as follows. A move your non stalker units and blink your stalkers to the side of your opponent's collosi, shift clicking and targeting them. Then, warp in reinforcements and chronoboost gateways. Alternate focusing attention between your stalkers and warping in more reinforcements.
As for reinforcements, warp in zealots if your opponent has anymore zealots, archons, or immortals left in his composition. Zealots get to the battle the fastest and are the best overall for dealing/taking damage. However, if your opponent has only stalker/collosi, then reinforce with only stalkers. If your opponent has only stalker/collosi, then you should have already had the battle won, because immortals can take on almost any ammount of stalker/collosi. You should instead be focused on chasing the enemy collosi down, which stalkers do a better job with than zealots. Never warp in templar, as archons take too long to morph and won't contribute much to the fight at all.
As for upgrades, attack upgrades are almost as effective for the robo/twilight player as the collosi player, as archons and immortals get huge bonuses. However, armor and shield upgrades are significiantly more effective for the collosi player, as a large portion of the robo/twight player's dps comes from zealots.
So in summary: Use the mobility of blink stalkers to get an earlier expansion than your opponent. Base trade if he tries to allin you. Use your econ lead to transition to a composition that can beat a collosi based army at foods below 200. Take an early 3rd, which will force your opponent to either allin you before he can fight you or take a 3rd which he cannot defend. If he delays his third, wait for your third to kick in for a while, add gateways, and attack him when you're close to maxed. Phoenix opening: + Show Spoiler +You should have enough stalkers to deny all harrass with this build. You should also have an obs in his base to scout what he does.
If your opponent does not have a robo or forge building and tries to expand you can go for a hidden dark shrine for an instant win.
If your opponent did not expand and got a robo, you can expand for yourself. Add a 4th gate but do not make any probes. Mass nothing but blink stalker and fill in the rest of your minerals with zealots. If he tries to allin, focus fire the phenoix and then you'll be left with all blink stalkers versus regular gateway units. Even if you're outnumbered slightly, you should be able to win.
I actually don't have any experience versus phoenix + robo expand with this build, but here's what I theorize you should do. Collosi is quite a long way from him, so I would go for a zealot/archon composition with one forge and your initial supporting stalkers. Then, take an greedy 3rd because his collosi will be slow and few. Again, focus the phoenix with your stalkers. I'm not entirely sure whether to get immortals with this composition though. Dark templar opening: + Show Spoiler +Before you even scout dts, you should be aware of the possibility of dts, how likely they are, and when they should come if they do come. Normally, the dt shrine finishes at at 7:10 with normal first gas timing and second gas coming right after the cyber core. Also, 1 gas mines at about 110 gas per minute. Thus, for every minute he delays his gas, he loses 110 gas. With this information and scouting your opponent's units with either a probe or your own poking units, you can deduce when the earliest dts might possibly come.
Once you see the dt shrine and confirm dts, chorno out a second observer, block your ramp with a few units, and forcefield your ramp if a dt comes before your observer finishes. Leave enough units at your base to deal with 2 dts and add a 4th gate. while your second obs is at your main base, your first should be over your opponent's army. Now, you have a choice to make. you can either kill him now or take an expansion. In most cases, you can directly kill him. From now on, make nothing but stalkers. Your opponent's will most likely transition will probably be charge. If you can catch him without charge, you will kill his entire army with blink micro before charge can finish. If you can't catch him before charge finishes, you can probably still kill him.
If you go for the expansion route, consisently harrass him with your blink stalkers and if he tries to allin you, harrass him with blink and it will be very hard to put up a close proxy pylon. You will probably whittle his army down before he gets to your base anyways. Whatever option you choose, as long as you didn't lose probes to his dts,it will be a very difficult game for you to lose.
Alternatively, if your opponent doesn't have a forge or a robo, build a dark shrine for yourself and go for the free win. Chargelot archon opening: + Show Spoiler +I haven't dealt with this much. I'll get back to you. You can probably deal with it the same way you deal with dts though as in harrassing and engaging the army and blinking back. I'll update the guide after I have more experience with this. Immortal expand: + Show Spoiler +Immortal expand is generally not very safe vs any build except this one. However, that still doesn't mean you can't win with this build. You will not be able to reliably win with an allin, because you invested in more tech than he did. However, you're only really far behind if your opponent got his expansion much earlier than you did, more than a minute or so. Procede to harrass him as much as possible with your blink stalkers until he gets blink stalkers of his own. Then, follow either the collosi portion of this guide or the robo twilight mirror portion depending on his followup. 1, 2 or 3 gate expand: + Show Spoiler +You should be able to scout this build before commiting to your robo twilight build. Cancel the robo, throw down a 4th gate and procede to stalker/sentry 4 gate your opponent. Good maps for this style: + Show Spoiler +Characteristics of a good map for this style: - Big- You want the potential to base trade
- Not narrow-The final unit composition thrives without chokes
- Hard to defend natural-This build has a hard time punishing greedy expansions
The Good: Terminus SE Cross position metalopolis MLG Shattered temple Xelnaga caverns Xelnaga fortress Testbug Dual sight Typhon peaks The not so good: Close air metalopolis-hard base trade if you take your natural Shakruas plateau-too easy to hold your natural with both collosi and forcefields Backwater gulch-the map is a bit too small for my taste to do this with unless it's cross positions The ugly: Close position on any maps- you can't base trade well enough Crossfire- chokes are too narrow for this army composition Talderim altar-I've never seen a PvP get to this stage on this map Other comments: + Show Spoiler +This general style can also be obtained via a blink stalker expand, immortal expand, or dark templar openings. All the nonspecific late game tips still apply. Example replays and vods: + Show Spoiler +This part is a WIP. Need to rewatch all these games and find the links plus upload my own replays.Personal replays:+ Show Spoiler +Robo twilight mirror with different styles mid game on Xelnaga caverns http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10915In this replay, I start off behind by losing a few stalkers, but I can still come back by following my guide. It demonstrates a more blink stalker heavy style versus an earlier zealot/archon style. Because I get map control with blink stalkers, I feel more safe and I can eventually win with better upgrades and more econ. Note other differences such as forge timing/gas timing/gateway timing. Robo twilight mirror into macro game on Antiga shipyards http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10916My opponent actually opens twilight into robo into expand. This is actually a less safe build but has an advantage over robo twilight on this map. Anyways, it's a good replay to showcase how I think the matchup should be played. Blink vs Robo twilight on Terminus SE http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10917I open blink into the zealot/archon/stalker/immortal composition. The general concepts I outline about the late game still apply here. Robo twilight vs Collosi allin on Xelnaga caverns http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/11107This game demonstrates a very typical game versus a collosi allin. The 2 main things I could have done better are getting a few more collosi out before my base died and getting a 2nd observer out. More personal replays incoming. Specifically need games versus collosi macro, phoenix, and chargelot/archon. Pro replays/vods: + Show Spoiler +Squirtle vs Hero GSTL game 1 on Xelnaga caverns http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstl3/vod/65330This game actually starts with a proxy gate and then transitions into standard play. Although it's not the best example of a robo blink build, this game is significant, because this is the first instance zealot/stalker/archon/immortal is used in a televised game. Ace vs Hasuobs NASL game 2 on Xelnaga caverns http://nasl.tv/Videos/ace-vs-hasuobs-week-seven-division-fourThis is the original game I based my build/style off of. Although Ace makes many mistakes, his harrass is quite good. Ace vs Hasuobs NASL game 3 on Shattered temple http://nasl.tv/Videos/ace-vs-hasuobs-week-seven-division-fourAce goes blink into expansion into robo and ends up with the robo/twilight composition vs collosi again. This game again demonstrates good harass. MC vs Inca GSL set 3 on Xelnaga caverns http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65709Both players go Robo twilight, but curiously Inca goes for charge and zealots while MC goes blink and stalkers. MC catches Inca in the middle of the map with blink but versus no charge. With proper micro, he crushes Inca's army and Inca has to gg. Huk vs MC GSL game 1 on Xelnaga fortress http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65750HUk does this build vs MC's blink expand. However, he keeps his own blink stalkers too much in front and engages MC's stalkers without his immortals, losing many stalkers because Huk has fewer. At MC's expansion, he gets an immortal picked off for free and loses to MC's higher stalker count. Puzzle vs Tassadar GSL game 5 on Terminus SE http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65763Puzzle goes for this style versus collosi but turns it into an allin. This game shows the importance of checking probe count/production from both sides of the matchup. Tassadar vs Squirtle GSTL set 2 on Xelnaga Fortress http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65787Tassadar tries to go for a robo twilight style but plays too greedy and loses to a 11 stalker blink allin at 7:29. Tassadar needed to not make his own twilight council and macro more units from his gateways. Choya vs Tyler MLG game 1 on MLG Metalopolis http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/72842-pool-play-tyler-vs-choya-g1Choya does this build perfectly until after the first fight when he has a lead. If you want to see a pro execute this build perfectly for the first 10 minutes, check this out. He seemed completely confused by Tyler's chargelot transition and fumbled from there. He made an expo, then canceled it, made a robo bay, then canceled it, and then settled for a dark shrine. I think the smartest decision from that point in choya's build is to expand and match tyler's zealot count without getting charge. Also, harass tyler with your high blink stalker count. Then, you can add a templar archives when you see him add his. Alternatively, it might be viable to keep adding on blink stalkers and try to kill tyler off directly. Choya opted for the middle road, adding more stalkers but not harrassing with them. Also, late game choya tries to transition from zealot archon into collosi, something I specifically warn against doing in the guide. Huk vs Mana Assembly Summer game 2 on Shakruas Plateau Replay not yet released Both players go robo twilight. This is a good demonstration of a typical mirror mid game and shows that the stalker is the dominant mid game unit. TSL.JYP vs AnyproPrime GSL Aug game 2 on Daybreak http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/65876Demonstrates how to play robo blink vs dt opening. JYP makes a read with his scouting probe, seeing a cannon and leaves his first observer at home while chornoing a 2nd observer. LiquidHero vs AliveFan Bnet game on Shakruas Plateau http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)AliveFan_vs_(P)oGsHerO_shakuras_plateau_sc2rep_com_20110810/12312Blink opening versus robo into immortal expand opening. Then both players transition into the same unit composition. I believe this is the first pro replay demonstrating the robo/twilight mirror late game. This replay also demonstrates good harrass and the effects of supply blocking your opponent and unpowering gateways in the late game if he has only produced the bare minimum number of gateways. Huk vs Kiwikaki Blizzcon NA qualifiers game 1 on Shattered Temple http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/tournaments/us-regionals/matches/sc2/video-archiveHuk goes for a greedy robo blink build, which catches kiwikaki off guard. Kiwikaki goes a more safe robo/twilight build, which is what this guide advocates. Normally, as kiwikaki when you see an observer so quickly, you don't expect blink for a long time. However, Huk makes a bet that kiwikaki won't blink allin him and this gambit pays off. Huk vs Kiwikaki Blizzcon NA qualifiers game 1 on Xelnaga Caverns http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/tournaments/us-regionals/matches/sc2/video-archiveMirror builds as game 1 except kiwikaki defends and comes out ahead after the inital fight. Kiwikaki stays on 1 base and allins huk when huk tries to expand. Because kiwikaki was ahead after the initial engagement, huk is down about 800 resources when the allin happens. FAQs: + Show Spoiler +Does this build work on talderim altar? No, and it's more of a style than a build.
How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build? Are you fucking retarded?
I tried this build and it failed. What did I do wrong? Post the replay and I'll tell you.
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Great guide, I have never seen such detailed information about PvP past 6 minutes yet.
I think Chargelot/Archon is potentially very dangerous if the opponent hits a timing where he has Archons while you don't have them with high Zealot counts on both sides, because the result will be that his Chargelots eat through whatever you have after your Zealots died. I agree with your thoughts on the choya/Tyler game, you absolutely need Archons as soon as the opponent has his. I don't think that killing him off with Stalkers works, but I might be wrong. You are definitely right about harassing with the Stalkers though, because they are quite bad in a straight up fight and you need to squeeze out their worth. Choya had a cute idea with the DT shrine, but he needed to get it faster and get the DTs into the main with either Observer + Pylon warpin or a warpprism. I haven't seen anyone put a second cannon into his mineralline yet (and you can scout whether he does), and at worst you still have access to overpriced Archons and prevent the opponent from moving out before Observer. DTs are also a great way to profit from your investment into Blink, because once the opponent has Observers you can snipe them fairly easily.
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Wow, fantastic thread! This is how I've been playing PvP lately and it's so refreshing and fun (and safe!). You seem to favor blink more than I do, though; against a robo/colossus opening I tend to go 1-base charge rather than doing the blink base-trade (I hate base trading), but that seems stylistic. Going fast chargelot+archon+immortal against a 1-base colossus push crushes it, so I'm sure either style can work. The blink response does seem to guarantee a faster expo, though, so maybe I should start trying it.
I will say that the most dangerous opening I've seen against this is a fast chargelot+archon opening by the opponent. The only way I've been able to deal with it is with DTs as quickly as I can. I'm also starting to think about how it might work rushing to archons without getting charge, since stalker+archon ought to theoretically beat small numbers of chargelots+archon, in a small choke (your ramp), but that's really just theorycrafting.
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Excellent.
I've been doing this for months but because 99% of the pvp games don't go past 1 base I still didn't have solid mid-and lategame timings, so tyvm
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Bookmarked, this is an awesome guide! I've been struggling with the transition out of the initial 4 gate hold off and I never really knew how to react. I can't wait to start trying this style out soon and see your personal replays. Thanks!
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Time to grab a practice partner and hammer out some PvP games. This is really helpful! Thanks!
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Great guide. Robo + immortals is very popular among koreans nowadays, and I never really understood how this style works.
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How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build? Are you fucking retarded?
I lol-ed
Very nice overall "mirror"-guide to Cecil's blink first Now for the constructive criticism:
Since I am (and - if we don't count 4 gate on maps where you can only 4 gate - have always been) a blink first player, I have to disagree with your advice on how to handle a blink expo into chargelot/archon style. You said that we should keep your stalker count above his and if he adds archons we should do the same. In fact I disagree with both statements, here is why: 1.) keep stalker-count above his: a GOOD blink-first-player should and never will let this happen. Frankly, if he does, he deserves to lose 100% because he has screwed up. If you invest in robo first and THEN TC you will have at least 2 immortals, which can be 4 stalkers for me before I build a robo for obs myself. I won't get any immortals, therefore I have the superior stalker-count. By quickly blinking back and not funnelling my army, there should be no way that you can pick off my stalkers one by one. You said that you should be able to harass your opponent, but normally it's the other way around: the blink player has the more mobile force and should harass the immortal player. If I start with blink and end up getting blink-harassed, then - again - I've screwed up. You should never be able to safely leave your base at all. 2.) mirror his archon-techswitch: if you open robo, I strongly disagree that you have to go for archons yourself. I completly agree that you shouldn't tech charge but instead simply keep your zealot count up. By that you render his charge-tech useless. But this aside you could and should go for the very standard constantly-chrono-boosted mass-colossi production. Once colossi reach a certain count (about 4-6 depending on position and rest of the army) your opponent's zealots melt SO quickly that archons are really a non-issue. Zealot/archon really only works in medium-sized battles. In fact, what I'd suggest when you scout the expo is expand yourself and tech to colossi hard. Your opponent wants to pin you on one base and force you to do an all-in which will fail because then it's exactly when chargelot/archon is at its strongest. If you accept that you are economicly behind but just don't care and use your TECH advantage you will get further and further ahead the longer the game progresses.
Notice that this holds ONLY true vs blink first and NOT for the robo/TC mirror where I agree with you that the first one to switch to colossi can be overrun. But if you face a blink first, he can NOT overrun you because he lacks the "beefy" units - blink first will always be behind in straight up battles in early/mid-game, which is where you can play it greedy with expanding and teching straight to colossi. Of course only when he expands, but I think that's obvious.
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extremely anoying build for wide main map such as shakuras or typhon... a good follow up would be proxy DT and snipe obs+robo or even going prism.
confirmed work well on high master and above as soon as your 3 stalker rush is correctly executed. Weakness: defensive DT expand.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 01 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote: 1.) keep stalker-count above his: a GOOD blink-first-player should and never will let this happen. Frankly, if he does, he deserves to lose 100% because he has screwed up. If you invest in robo first and THEN TC you will have at least 2 immortals, which can be 4 stalkers for me before I build a robo for obs myself. I won't get any immortals, therefore I have the superior stalker-count. By quickly blinking back and not funnelling my army, there should be no way that you can pick off my stalkers one by one. You said that you should be able to harass your opponent, but normally it's the other way around: the blink player has the more mobile force and should harass the immortal player. If I start with blink and end up getting blink-harassed, then - again - I've screwed up. You should never be able to safely leave your base at all. 2.) mirror his archon-techswitch: if you open robo, I strongly disagree that you have to go for archons yourself. I completly agree that you shouldn't tech charge but instead simply keep your zealot count up. By that you render his charge-tech useless. But this aside you could and should go for the very standard constantly-chrono-boosted mass-colossi production. Once colossi reach a certain count (about 4-6 depending on position and rest of the army) your opponent's zealots melt SO quickly that archons are really a non-issue. Zealot/archon really only works in medium-sized battles. In fact, what I'd suggest when you scout the expo is expand yourself and tech to colossi hard. Your opponent wants to pin you on one base and force you to do an all-in which will fail because then it's exactly when chargelot/archon is at its strongest. If you accept that you are economicly behind but just don't care and use your TECH advantage you will get further and further ahead the longer the game progresses.
mlg spoilers + Show Spoiler +Let me clear something up. The section you're referring to is a direct response to the choya vs tyler game. It specifically refers to an opponent who's on 1 base and who has abandoned blink stalker very early in favor of chargelots. See the game I'm referring to for more clarity. In this particular situation, I stand by the fact that going collosi off either 1 or 2 base is not the answer.
In a 2 base situation, your suggestion becomes more viable. However, I still think that zealot/archon/stalker/immortal is the way to go after an expansion. This is because if you go for collosi, you're basically just doing a late collosi build and might as well open collosi yourself instead of opening robo blink to counter blink.You also seem to underestimate the power of zealot/archon/stalker/immortal composition, as I have stated in the guide that this composition can directly take on a collosi army as long as the supplies aren't close to 200. Yes, it can even beat an army with 6 collosi. Maybe you're not using immortals when you're trying out the build?
Also, I disagree you always have a tech advantage when you're facing vs blink expand. Half the time, they add a robo right after the expansion and have robo tech as well.
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On August 01 2011 17:29 NB wrote: extremely anoying build for wide main map such as shakuras or typhon... a good follow up would be proxy DT and snipe obs+robo or even going prism.
confirmed work well on high master and above as soon as your 3 stalker rush is correctly executed. Weakness: defensive DT expand.
The followups you suggested are ok but gimmicky. I'm aiming for more of a solid style. Dt expand is not a weakness. I actually had trouble dealing with it early on, but with some good reads, practice, and knowing what you do, you can beat it quite easily.
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best guide i've seen in a while, thanks, this looks real interesting
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Quoted this "out" of the spoiler, since it doesn't really refer to the game in question
In a 2 base situation, your suggestion becomes more viable. However, I still think that zealot/archon/stalker/immortal is the way to go after an expansion. This is because if you go for collosi, you're basically just doing a late collosi build and might as well open collosi yourself instead of opening robo blink to counter blink.You also seem to underestimate the power of zealot/archon/stalker/immortal composition, as I have stated in the guide that this composition can directly take on a collosi army as long as the supplies aren't close to 200. Yes, it can even beat an army with 6 collosi. Maybe you're not using immortals when you're trying out the build?
Also, I disagree you always have a tech advantage when you're facing vs blink expand. Half the time, they add a robo right after the expansion and have robo tech as well.
First of all, yes, I was referring to a situation where the blink player adds an expansion "reasonably" quickly. Meaning, not quickly enough to force you into an all-in and not so late that it's basicly a delayed one base vs one base situation. Second, I don't disagree that zealot/archon/stalker/immortal is strong - it is.
Yes, it can even beat an army with 6 collosi. Maybe you're not using immortals when you're trying out the build?
I think you are looking at it from the wrong side. Your opponent won't go for colossi, by assumption (!). Your opponent has opened blink into later robotics into expo and you have scouted that he is going chargelot/archon. Then - and only then - is where I think a switch to colossi is strong. If your opponent has opened blink into expand and harasses you with blink/obs from a delayed robo. Then you can just let him harass you and macro up a huge colossus force. Since your opponent won't have immortals (he opened blink and went straight into zealot/archon), blink is the only threat for your colossi. And once they reach a critical size, blink stalkers aren't a match any more.
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On August 01 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote: I think you are looking at it from the wrong side. Your opponent won't go for colossi, by assumption (!). Your opponent has opened blink into later robotics into expo and you have scouted that he is going chargelot/archon. Then - and only then - is where I think a switch to colossi is strong. If your opponent has opened blink into expand and harasses you with blink/obs from a delayed robo. Then you can just let him harass you and macro up a huge colossus force. Since your opponent won't have immortals (he opened blink and went straight into zealot/archon), blink is the only threat for your colossi. And once they reach a critical size, blink stalkers aren't a match any more.
My point is that I don't see why your opponent can't add in immortals in his mix and basically turn the tables around where he goes zealot/archon/stalker/immortal versus your collosi. Also, your collosi will be late and small in number, so you won't be able to effectively contest any greedy expansions from your opponent while you're building up your collosi count.
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On August 01 2011 18:05 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote: 1.) keep stalker-count above his: a GOOD blink-first-player should and never will let this happen. Frankly, if he does, he deserves to lose 100% because he has screwed up. If you invest in robo first and THEN TC you will have at least 2 immortals, which can be 4 stalkers for me before I build a robo for obs myself. I won't get any immortals, therefore I have the superior stalker-count. By quickly blinking back and not funnelling my army, there should be no way that you can pick off my stalkers one by one. You said that you should be able to harass your opponent, but normally it's the other way around: the blink player has the more mobile force and should harass the immortal player. If I start with blink and end up getting blink-harassed, then - again - I've screwed up. You should never be able to safely leave your base at all. 2.) mirror his archon-techswitch: if you open robo, I strongly disagree that you have to go for archons yourself. I completly agree that you shouldn't tech charge but instead simply keep your zealot count up. By that you render his charge-tech useless. But this aside you could and should go for the very standard constantly-chrono-boosted mass-colossi production. Once colossi reach a certain count (about 4-6 depending on position and rest of the army) your opponent's zealots melt SO quickly that archons are really a non-issue. Zealot/archon really only works in medium-sized battles. In fact, what I'd suggest when you scout the expo is expand yourself and tech to colossi hard. Your opponent wants to pin you on one base and force you to do an all-in which will fail because then it's exactly when chargelot/archon is at its strongest. If you accept that you are economicly behind but just don't care and use your TECH advantage you will get further and further ahead the longer the game progresses.
mlg spoilers + Show Spoiler +Let me clear something up. The section you're referring to is a direct response to the choya vs tyler game. It specifically refers to an opponent who's on 1 base and who has abandoned blink stalker very early in favor of chargelots. See the game I'm referring to for more clarity. In this particular situation, I stand by the fact that going collosi off either 1 or 2 base is not the answer.
In a 2 base situation, your suggestion becomes more viable. However, I still think that zealot/archon/stalker/immortal is the way to go after an expansion. This is because if you go for collosi, you're basically just doing a late collosi build and might as well open collosi yourself instead of opening robo blink to counter blink.You also seem to underestimate the power of zealot/archon/stalker/immortal composition, as I have stated in the guide that this composition can directly take on a collosi army as long as the supplies aren't close to 200. Yes, it can even beat an army with 6 collosi. Maybe you're not using immortals when you're trying out the build?
Also, I disagree you always have a tech advantage when you're facing vs blink expand. Half the time, they add a robo right after the expansion and have robo tech as well.
I have done this in the past, and I concur that you can take on armies with up to about 6 colossi, but any more and it gets really, really, really hard. The ultimate goal really with this build is to end up with chargelots attacking the enemy stalkers/immortals/colossi, with the blink stalkers+remaining immortals attacking armoured units of the enemy, and with good engagements it can actually happen. The ONLY thing I have to add to this guide is you need to remind people to get 1-2 sentries for the express purpose of GS, especially when trying to engage mass colossi. 4 damage per target off the huge damage of colossi doesn't seem like much, but when you just need chargelots to eat one more round of colossus shots, it can make all the difference.
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First of, taking this out of my edit since you've replied already:
You need to consider the investments your opponent makes: a) he techs charge: if you just keep your zealot-count up (as you've stated correctly) then the tech is a waste b) he adds stalkers to be able to keep up the harassment: you have immortals that are much more cost-effective for defense c) he adds the archives: again 200 gas
For the 200 gas of his charge-tech you can add the robo-bay. For the 200 gas of his archives you can add a colossus. For his first two archons you can add another THREE colossi. Meaning, without taking anything else into consideration, a chargelot+two archons combo is EQUAL in gas to mass zealots w/o charge + FOUR colossi. And he won't even have immortals as that's not the way an aggressive blink into charge/archon player will structure his composition.
On August 01 2011 18:41 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote: I think you are looking at it from the wrong side. Your opponent won't go for colossi, by assumption (!). Your opponent has opened blink into later robotics into expo and you have scouted that he is going chargelot/archon. Then - and only then - is where I think a switch to colossi is strong. If your opponent has opened blink into expand and harasses you with blink/obs from a delayed robo. Then you can just let him harass you and macro up a huge colossus force. Since your opponent won't have immortals (he opened blink and went straight into zealot/archon), blink is the only threat for your colossi. And once they reach a critical size, blink stalkers aren't a match any more. My point is that I don't see why your opponent can't add in immortals in his mix and basically turn the tables around where he goes zealot/archon/stalker/immortal versus your collosi. Also, your collosi will be late and small in number, so you won't be able to effectively contest any greedy expansions from your opponent while you're building up your collosi count.
You are true regarding a rather late colossus-switch. Nevertheless I'm of the opinion that you can afford going STRAIGHT for the colossi once you've confirmed the expansion. You have to keep in mind that he cannot punish greedy teching + economy-boosting at this point at all. I can meet you halfway in that I agree that colossi require a larger map so he just can't march over and kill you in seconds I simply wanted to point out, that the colossus-player will gain an advantage the longer the game goes. And later on you could - in theory - add the archives yourself and go for a zealot/archon/colossus composition....which we've seen I think Nani do vs MC at homestory cup 3 if I remember correctly.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 01 2011 18:52 sleepingdog wrote: First of, taking this out of my edit since you've replied already:
You need to consider the investments your opponent makes: a) he techs charge: if you just keep your zealot-count up (as you've stated correctly) then the tech is a waste b) he adds stalkers to be able to keep up the harassment: you have immortals that are much more cost-effective for defense c) he adds the archives: again 200 gas
For the 200 gas of his charge-tech you can add the robo-bay. For the 200 gas of his archives you can add a colossus. For his first two archons you can add another THREE colossi. Meaning, without taking anything else into consideration, a chargelot+two archons combo is EQUAL in gas to mass zealots w/o charge + FOUR colossi. And he won't even have immortals as that's not the way an aggressive blink into charge/archon player will structure his composition.
First of all, you're forgetting about the cost of the range upgrade, which makes the gas investments of both players even. Also, I completely address this issue in my guide where I talk about fixed cost vs variable cost. After you get over the fixed cost of charge/blink/templar archives, chargelot/archon is more cost efficient netting you 22 food for the price of 18 food of collosi. Also, I still don't see why your opponent won't have immortals when he has a robo and getting immortals is a good choice. I feel like you're just coming up with a hypothetical player who never gets immortals with zealot/archon.
Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 18:41 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote: I think you are looking at it from the wrong side. Your opponent won't go for colossi, by assumption (!). Your opponent has opened blink into later robotics into expo and you have scouted that he is going chargelot/archon. Then - and only then - is where I think a switch to colossi is strong. If your opponent has opened blink into expand and harasses you with blink/obs from a delayed robo. Then you can just let him harass you and macro up a huge colossus force. Since your opponent won't have immortals (he opened blink and went straight into zealot/archon), blink is the only threat for your colossi. And once they reach a critical size, blink stalkers aren't a match any more. My point is that I don't see why your opponent can't add in immortals in his mix and basically turn the tables around where he goes zealot/archon/stalker/immortal versus your collosi. Also, your collosi will be late and small in number, so you won't be able to effectively contest any greedy expansions from your opponent while you're building up your collosi count. You are true regarding a rather late colossus-switch. Nevertheless I'm of the opinion that you can afford going STRAIGHT for the colossi once you've confirmed the expansion. You have to keep in mind that he cannot punish greedy teching + economy-boosting at this point at all. I can meet you halfway in that I agree that colossi require a larger map so he just can't march over and kill you in seconds I simply wanted to point out, that the colossus-player will gain an advantage the longer the game goes. And later on you could - in theory - add the archives yourself and go for a zealot/archon/colossus composition....which we've seen I think Nani do vs MC at homestory cup 3 if I remember correctly.
I do actually think collosi is a viable choice. Don't get me wrong on that. However, it's more fragile and vulnerable to timings. Plus, it's hard to expand with it and you lose map control. Mostly it depends on the map imo. For example, Antiga shipyards has an easily defend-able 2nd and 3rd so collosi might be good on that map. Map distance shouldn't matter though because of warpgates.
Also, i believe naniwa went zealot/archon/colossus on crossfire versus stalker collosi from mc. Zealot/archon/stalker/immortal isn't viable at all on that map.
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Beautiful guide!!! I've been putting so much effort into working out this style in PvP as of late but you really beat me to it.
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On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered.
could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs).
If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build).
So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something.
Great guide by the way!
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On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way!
To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore.
Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding.
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On August 01 2011 19:17 4kmonk wrote: I do actually think collosi is a viable choice. Don't get me wrong on that. However, it's more fragile and vulnerable to timings. Plus, it's hard to expand with it and you lose map control. Mostly it depends on the map imo. For example, Antiga shipyards has an easily defend-able 2nd and 3rd so collosi might be good on that map. Map distance shouldn't matter though because of warpgates.
On map-control: this is right, nevertheless in those situations I am talking about, you will NEVER have map-control. Whenever I play blink, I make sure that I always have a stronger stalker-force than you and if you leave your base with your immortals, I just blink in and own pylons. This was pretty much the core point of my criticism, that you shouldn't try to "regain" mapcontrol, but safely macro up 2 base and defend. When I play blink I have the most problems when my opponent just doesn't sacrifice stuff and stays very defensive. Because then my huge stalker-force gets less and less useful the longer the game progresses.
Map distance should still matter because normally the blink player warps zealots/archons inside his natural. The stalker-ball moves around the map, the zealot/archon force stays behind...also to protect against hidden zealot warp-ins. On maps like typhon peaks, zealot/archon needs quite some time to march over, if your opponent wants to hit a timing where you have too few colossi to defend. On maps like shakuras, zealot/archon is very weak offensively in general, you can easily defend your nat with your first few colossi.
This aside I have no problem if we agree to disagree, no need to always be of the same opinion. Then again, I'm blue and therefore right by definition... j/k of course - "safe" 3 gate builds are just evolving since PvP metagame has basicly lost 9 month due to unstoppable 4 gate, therefore there are still many things to be figured out. Especially if robo into tc or tc into robo proves to be more efficient overall....or if tc into forge (vs dts) is actually useful (I'm not convinced so far)
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United States8476 Posts
Added some personal replays. Unfortunately, most of my replays are from the last patch, so I'll play a few more games today from the new patch.
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On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding.
Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers.
Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later.
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As a mid master toss who's been using this build amost exclusively in pvp, this guide is a great insight to how the build works. I do think the greatest way to deal with this build is chargelot archon. I'm not quite sure how to deal with it mid game. Obviously, abusing the terrain with extremely mobile range units against immobile melée units is probably the right move. I think in an open field, cost for cost? You'll lose against charge lot archon... But it definitely is beatable. You just have to out play your opponent and play like a boss.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 01 2011 22:24 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding. Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers. Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later.
I disagree that you can always know definitively if your opponent is 4 gating or not by 5:45. If this were true, then MC's defensive 3 gate wouldn't need a 2nd sentry, because in that build the 2nd sentry also warps in at 5:45.
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Thank you thank you thank you! This is the best PvP guide I've ever read. I always feel like PvP guides go second by second with exacting detail up until about 7:00, and then they're like "Colossi are pretty durn good" or "Archons are awesome, get some." Leaves me feeling like I'm walking off a cliff when I get to the end of the detailed part of the build. This actually goes into significant detail about the thinking behind the build and discusses a lot of the responses you make to variations you might encounter playing the build out.
Big nerd-hugs to you for the effort you put into this. I'll absolutely be trying it out.
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On August 01 2011 22:29 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 22:24 Geiko wrote:On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding. Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers. Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later. I disagree that you can always know definitively if your opponent is 4 gating or not by 5:45. If this were true, then MC's defensive 3 gate wouldn't need a 2nd sentry, because in that build the 2nd sentry also warps in at 5:45.
Yes that's very true. But then you can at least be sure that you are at worse dealing with a slightly delayed 4 gate : i.e. he is carefully placing his proxy pylon at a reasonnable distance, and will need to "hop" one step closer to your base. With my build, I can hold these type of 4 gates even if I teched up before 4th pylon (because of 2 FF on my sentry). Most of the time I don't even have to cancel the tech building I am making for extra ressources (though if his 4 gate is really perfectly timed, I might have to). So I checked the timings, and with robo before pylon, I am 15-30 secs ahead of your build. You can add safety and place it after the pylon and then it hits the same timing as your robo.
I'm sorry to only be commenting on this question (early game build order) but I haven't had time to read your guide thoroughly (only skimmed through it once). It looks very well thought out and I'll be sure to comment on it in the next days.
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i've been experimenting with this off and on for over a month now (I saw it on ladder from someone else, not from huk) (top masters on US/EU and matching vs masters KR this reset) and its pretty solid if you survive the 4gate. Thats the key, but after that, robo twilight is definitely the way
It has just so many branches you can go into after it; such as blink but being safe against the opponent DT (major problem for the standard blink play) or the standard robo styles, with option to include charge or blink earlier.
The future I think will include a lot of Blink + Immortals.. that timing attack (3 immortal mass blink) owns just about everything except charglot/archon, which isnt too common lately.
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On August 01 2011 22:29 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 22:24 Geiko wrote:On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding. Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers. Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later. I disagree that you can always know definitively if your opponent is 4 gating or not by 5:45. If this were true, then MC's defensive 3 gate wouldn't need a 2nd sentry, because in that build the 2nd sentry also warps in at 5:45.
if he does a fake 4 gate, his tech will also be later, so I don't think there is a huge problem in playing safe (against 12 gate with saved chrono and no second gas).
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Nice guide. The one advice I have for people is be very careful. Because of the extra gas spent on extra tech you will be very behind in units early on and are more vulnerable to one base timings.
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United States8476 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2011 22:39 AmericanUmlaut wrote: Thank you thank you thank you! This is the best PvP guide I've ever read. I always feel like PvP guides go second by second with exacting detail up until about 7:00, and then they're like "Colossi are pretty durn good" or "Archons are awesome, get some." Leaves me feeling like I'm walking off a cliff when I get to the end of the detailed part of the build. This actually goes into significant detail about the thinking behind the build and discusses a lot of the responses you make to variations you might encounter playing the build out.
Big nerd-hugs to you for the effort you put into this. I'll absolutely be trying it out. Thanks. It's nice to be appreciated for the work I put into this.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2011 22:45 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 22:29 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 22:24 Geiko wrote:On August 01 2011 21:42 4kmonk wrote:On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered. could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs). If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build). So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something. Great guide by the way! To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore. Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding. Actually, the only thing my build forces is 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry. You only warp in the last 3 units at 5:45, and at that time, you should know if your opponent is 4 gating or not. If not, and you were going robo, you can get any other unit you deem necessary instead of 3 stalkers. Regarding the 10-20 second delay, if I'm going robo, I get my robo right after the 3rd gate (before 4th pylon) because indeed, those few seconds are very important in robo tech (as compared to twilight where you can delay it). I'd have to check the timings on that but I really don't think it's more than 5-10 seconds later. I disagree that you can always know definitively if your opponent is 4 gating or not by 5:45. If this were true, then MC's defensive 3 gate wouldn't need a 2nd sentry, because in that build the 2nd sentry also warps in at 5:45. Yes that's very true. But then you can at least be sure that you are at worse dealing with a slightly delayed 4 gate : i.e. he is carefully placing his proxy pylon at a reasonnable distance, and will need to "hop" one step closer to your base. With my build, I can hold these type of 4 gates even if I teched up before 4th pylon (because of 2 FF on my sentry). Most of the time I don't even have to cancel the tech building I am making for extra ressources (though if his 4 gate is really perfectly timed, I might have to). So I checked the timings, and with robo before pylon, I am 15-30 secs ahead of your build. You can add safety and place it after the pylon and then it hits the same timing as your robo. I'm sorry to only be commenting on this question (early game build order) but I haven't had time to read your guide thoroughly (only skimmed through it once). It looks very well thought out and I'll be sure to comment on it in the next days. You should experiment with that and put it into your guide.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2011 22:59 MaGiKL wrote: Nice guide. The one advice I have for people is be very careful. Because of the extra gas spent on extra tech you will be very behind in units early on and are more vulnerable to one base timings. I try to cover the early game attacks you could face in my guide unless you think I missed one.
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I've been doing Geiko's 3-gate into robo then twilight. It works just fine for me so far; as soon as I scout the opponent teching rather than 4-gate, I just cut the rest of the build and throw down a robo immediately. No need to be safe against a 4-gate that isn't coming. Typically it turns into 2-gate or 3-gate robo.
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Thanks for the guide. Don't think I have the control/multi-tasking to pull it off effectively, but I try to anyways.
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I do this build quite often in PvP now. Nothing really strict on timing if you can hold the 4 gates, very strong build if your opponent going expand or colossus or heavy gates. I would add 1 sentry in very early to hold off the 4 gates rush
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Hey sorry if I missed it in the guide, but I'm a little confused as to when you're getting twilight + blink against collosi builds. As far as I can tell, you'd scout high zeal count and maybe some sentries which would trigger a quick twilight/blink and then when your obs reaches his base and you confirm, your nexus would go down. However how would you play it out if you see something like 3 stalkers/2 sentries? The guy who did this followed with collosi which my obs saw. I wasn't actually playing this style (I was just sort of playing without a set game plan) but I didn't know what to expect when I saw 2 sentry/3 stalker (at like 6:40). I don't even think he was safe vs. 4 gate. Is it just one of those sub-optimal builds that throws off scouting?
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United States8476 Posts
On August 02 2011 22:29 Huntz wrote: Hey sorry if I missed it in the guide, but I'm a little confused as to when you're getting twilight + blink against collosi builds. As far as I can tell, you'd scout high zeal count and maybe some sentries which would trigger a quick twilight/blink and then when your obs reaches his base and you confirm, your nexus would go down. However how would you play it out if you see something like 3 stalkers/2 sentries? The guy who did this followed with collosi which my obs saw. I wasn't actually playing this style (I was just sort of playing without a set game plan) but I didn't know what to expect when I saw 2 sentry/3 stalker (at like 6:40). I don't even think he was safe vs. 4 gate. Is it just one of those sub-optimal builds that throws off scouting?
You get the twilight council as soon as you can safely. Usually, this means putting it down as soon as you can rule out a blink allin. Seeing 3 stalkers and 2 sentries doesn't tell you much about his tech choice except ruling out fast dts. 3 stalkers and 2 sentries is actually the standard composition resulting from a quick gas into 3 stalker rush opening. However, as I indicate in my guide, 2 sentries usually means no blink stalker allin or a delayed blink stalker allin, so you are free to throw down your twilight council earlier. Also, if you keep track of his gas timing and count his gas, you can actually tell the maximum number of stalkers he can have at any one time.
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I don't understand how you can do a build that is defensive enough to hold a 4gate (I do a somewhat greedy 2gate robo build that I can usually hold a 4gate with if they don't get a pylon before ~5:30 under my ramp) and have the robo early enough to get 1 immortal by 7:00 or 2 immortals by 7:40 as required by your guide to defend a blink allin play...
I understand if they get a 2nd gas early it's a possibility, but it's just as much if not more of a possibility that they're just taking the dudes off gas right after i leave and 4gating anyways.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 05 2011 05:00 Complete wrote: I don't understand how you can do a build that is defensive enough to hold a 4gate (I do a somewhat greedy 2gate robo build that I can usually hold a 4gate with if they don't get a pylon before ~5:30 under my ramp) and have the robo early enough to get 1 immortal by 7:00 or 2 immortals by 7:40 as required by your guide to defend a blink allin play...
I understand if they get a 2nd gas early it's a possibility, but it's just as much if not more of a possibility that they're just taking the dudes off gas right after i leave and 4gating anyways.
Your question deals more with the opening rather than the actual strategy. By your logic, no robo build can hold both a 4 gate and a blink stalker allin, which is just not true. You should be able to make a very good judgement call on whether is is going blink stalker allin or not with good scouting information. My benchmarks on getting 1 immortal by 7:00 or 2 immortals by 7:40 only applies if your opponent is doing the most optimal hardcore blink stalker allin aka the worst case scenario. That is, he must have gotten his gas right after cyber and begun mining gas the entire time. If he does that, you can effectively rule out 4 gate and do a 1 gate robo build, easily getting the immortal out in time. If he doesn't get his gas at all or gets it and doesn't mine from it, you can delay the 7:00 and 7:40 benchmarks I set by much later.
Also, you don't necessarily have to have x amount of immortals at that timing exactly, because you can survive for ~10seconds without the immortal and in my benchmarks, I actually don't account for the time your opponent needs to travel from his warpin pylon to blinking up your ramp,which can another 5-15 seconds.
Finally, you can use sentries to forcefield the bottom of the ramp, potentially delaying him because he doesn't know what's above your ramp, delaying your opponent even more.
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Mana-Huk on shakuras (assebly) just showed what happens when both players go the build, great game!
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United States8476 Posts
Yea, I included the game in my guide.
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Hey 4kmonk, long time lurker but first post on tl ^_^
I've been using this build against one of my toss friends and he's been able to consistantly 3 gate expand against this build at around 5:15. The problem is, he opens with only 1 gas and saves chrono so it looks like a 4 gate and then pushes out with 3-4 stalkers to deny probe scoutes and proxies.
Your build tells me that I can scout his 3 gate expo before I commit to this build. What I usually do for my opening is the 3 gate geiko build you suggested, but by the time I scout the expo, my robo/wg is finished and he has an expo nearing completion or finished. He follows up his 3 gate with 2 more gateways and quite a few zealots. Any blink timing I have has quite a bit with this opening. You suggest canceling the robo and adding a 4th gate for an all in, but bc my scouting is denied, I cannot be sure he's expanding and my robo usually finishes.
I feel like beating an early expo with my current opening relies on having probes scout without being denied. I dont have a replay atm (the last time we played was about a week ago so the replay has been lost), sorry about that. If you want one, I'll try to get one up ASAP.
Why do you think I've been losing? Is my opener weak, am I doing something wrong or is robo twilight soft countered by this build? Should I expand in reaction to his expo?
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United States8476 Posts
On August 09 2011 01:16 ZaloMonkada wrote: Hey 4kmonk, long time lurker but first post on tl ^_^
I've been using this build against one of my toss friends and he's been able to consistantly 3 gate expand against this build at around 5:15. The problem is, he opens with only 1 gas and saves chrono so it looks like a 4 gate and then pushes out with 3-4 stalkers to deny probe scoutes and proxies.
Your build tells me that I can scout his 3 gate expo before I commit to this build. What I usually do for my opening is the 3 gate geiko build you suggested, but by the time I scout the expo, my robo/wg is finished and he has an expo nearing completion or finished. He follows up his 3 gate with 2 more gateways and quite a few zealots. Any blink timing I have has quite a bit with this opening. You suggest canceling the robo and adding a 4th gate for an all in, but bc my scouting is denied, I cannot be sure he's expanding and my robo usually finishes.
I feel like beating an early expo with my current opening relies on having probes scout without being denied. I dont have a replay atm (the last time we played was about a week ago so the replay has been lost), sorry about that. If you want one, I'll try to get one up ASAP.
Why do you think I've been losing? Is my opener weak, am I doing something wrong or is robo twilight soft countered by this build? Should I expand in reaction to his expo?
Yea, I agree with you that a 3 gate expo with probe scout denial is a soft counter to the robo twilight opening. If your robo finishes before you scout his nexus, you're in a bit of trouble. What I would do at this point would probably be to go for a dt drop, because most players play the 3 gate expo build with a cannon near their ramp in their natural and don't opt for another cannon in their main or a robo. Or you could blink stalker allin them. But again, both of these moves are desperation moves and rely on your opponent messing up.
Generally, I do not recommend expanding against this build, because you will not be able to hold off something like a 6 gate blink stalker attack. However, if your expansion will only be slightly later than his, it is somewhat viable. If you do opt to expand, make sure you deny any of his scouting probes so he plays more passively and doesn't attack you.
However, ideally we want to make sure this situation never happens and here's a few ways to do that. I'd have to watch a replay, but I'm not sure how your scouting probe is getting sniped. This shouldn't be possible if your opponent is aggressively pressuring you. On the other hand, if your opponent isn't pressuring you or you see an early 2nd stalker, you can rule out 4 gate and be more aggressive with your inital stalkers, even using them for scouting. I'd like to see a replay though of both your and your opponent's army movements.
Another option is to open blink instead of robo blink. I'll have more on this later, but a blink opening is a good counter to any expo opening, as your blink attack hits before his expo kicks in. Blink is a lot safer versus a 1 gate build, because of the smaller threat of a dt build, while at the same time much better versus an expansion build. Depending on the map, both your build orders, and how much intel you can get before blink finishes, blink can actually sometimes come out even or ahead of a robo build.
Also, on maps like shakruas plateau where you can easily defend your natural with forcefields, most of this advice goes out the window. A blink opening can be held with a 3 gate expo and counter expos becomes a more viable choice. Also, it's very hard to scout for expos on that map.
But again I'd like to see a replay, so I can give more specific advice.
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On August 09 2011 01:16 ZaloMonkada wrote: Hey 4kmonk, long time lurker but first post on tl ^_^
I've been using this build against one of my toss friends and he's been able to consistantly 3 gate expand against this build at around 5:15. The problem is, he opens with only 1 gas and saves chrono so it looks like a 4 gate and then pushes out with 3-4 stalkers to deny probe scoutes and proxies.
Your build tells me that I can scout his 3 gate expo before I commit to this build. What I usually do for my opening is the 3 gate geiko build you suggested, but by the time I scout the expo, my robo/wg is finished and he has an expo nearing completion or finished. He follows up his 3 gate with 2 more gateways and quite a few zealots. Any blink timing I have has quite a bit with this opening. You suggest canceling the robo and adding a 4th gate for an all in, but bc my scouting is denied, I cannot be sure he's expanding and my robo usually finishes.
I feel like beating an early expo with my current opening relies on having probes scout without being denied. I dont have a replay atm (the last time we played was about a week ago so the replay has been lost), sorry about that. If you want one, I'll try to get one up ASAP.
Why do you think I've been losing? Is my opener weak, am I doing something wrong or is robo twilight soft countered by this build? Should I expand in reaction to his expo?
You should have 3-4 stalkers of your own to keep his busy while you probe scout ?
Do you have a replay or two we could analyze ?
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this build has completely shut down my blink stalker play =/ going to read the guide and adapt : )
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United States8476 Posts
Added 1 more replay + 1 more vod from yesterday's GSL. It shows robo twilight vs dt into chargelot archon.
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On August 09 2011 02:08 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 01:16 ZaloMonkada wrote: Hey 4kmonk, long time lurker but first post on tl ^_^
I've been using this build against one of my toss friends and he's been able to consistantly 3 gate expand against this build at around 5:15. The problem is, he opens with only 1 gas and saves chrono so it looks like a 4 gate and then pushes out with 3-4 stalkers to deny probe scoutes and proxies.
Your build tells me that I can scout his 3 gate expo before I commit to this build. What I usually do for my opening is the 3 gate geiko build you suggested, but by the time I scout the expo, my robo/wg is finished and he has an expo nearing completion or finished. He follows up his 3 gate with 2 more gateways and quite a few zealots. Any blink timing I have has quite a bit with this opening. You suggest canceling the robo and adding a 4th gate for an all in, but bc my scouting is denied, I cannot be sure he's expanding and my robo usually finishes.
I feel like beating an early expo with my current opening relies on having probes scout without being denied. I dont have a replay atm (the last time we played was about a week ago so the replay has been lost), sorry about that. If you want one, I'll try to get one up ASAP.
Why do you think I've been losing? Is my opener weak, am I doing something wrong or is robo twilight soft countered by this build? Should I expand in reaction to his expo? You should have 3-4 stalkers of your own to keep his busy while you probe scout ? Do you have a replay or two we could analyze ?
Sorry about the lack of a replay. I'm finishing my last week of work before going back to college and I'm swamped, so I havent had too much time to play. I'll wait to upload a replay before asking too many more questions because theorycrafting only gets you so far
The map I've tested this on is xelnaga. On maps like metalopolis and shattered temple its much easier to sneak probes to scout (metalopolis has two corridors, shattered has a shitty xelnaga, esp for cp), but on xelnaga, my opponent can control the xelnagas quite well because I invest in an early sentry and zealot. I know I should have 3-4 stalkers, but the way he controls space on thin maps like xc is quite difficult to deal with, especially when scouting his expo even 30 seconds late can be game breaking and my 3rd and 4th stalker finish as wg finishes (15 seconds after his expo goes down). The equal stalker count from his side may not be able to engage my army directly, but can usually delay my scounting because he tries to snipe escaping probes.
Quick question about this build when used as an opener. The robo should be dropped down instead of the 3 stalker warp in if you dont suspect a 4 gate, right?
On August 09 2011 01:57 4kmonk wrote: Another option is to open blink instead of robo blink. I'll have more on this later, but a blink opening is a good counter to any expo opening, as your blink attack hits before his expo kicks in. Blink is a lot safer versus a 1 gate build, because of the smaller threat of a dt build, while at the same time much better versus an expansion build. Depending on the map, both your build orders, and how much intel you can get before blink finishes, blink can actually sometimes come out even or ahead of a robo build.
I'm really digging this opening, like the one MC used against Huk in GSL, but I definitely want to work this build out some more and i dont know how well blink works against fast dts and early immortal pushes. I'm considering using a 3 stalker opening (like younghwa's 3 gate robo) on thin maps like xelnaga to make my scouting more reliable.
I'll try to get a replay up ASAP because following Forum Guidelines is cool and not posting replays is lame.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 09 2011 04:07 ZaloMonkada wrote:
Quick question about this build when used as an opener. The robo should be dropped down instead of the 3 stalker warp in if you dont suspect a 4 gate, right?
I personally don't use geiko's opening, but if you're using geiko's opening, then yes. Drop the robo before a 3 stalker warpin.
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Hi. Could you help me understand where I went wrong in this replay? I usually open geikos 3gate, but I scouted early second gas so I dropped robo and twilight earlier than I usually do. I had a much high stalker count than him, and stayed at his front while my expo was going down. We were even on supplies going into the midgame and then I lost an engagement real bad and I'm not sure why. We had similar zealot numbers. He had 2 more archons than me I believe, and he had immortals. . . should I be trying to match his immortal count? Any help would be great
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United States8476 Posts
On August 10 2011 07:03 Dirichlet wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hi. Could you help me understand where I went wrong in this replay? I usually open geikos 3gate, but I scouted early second gas so I dropped robo and twilight earlier than I usually do. I had a much high stalker count than him, and stayed at his front while my expo was going down. We were even on supplies going into the midgame and then I lost an engagement real bad and I'm not sure why. We had similar zealot numbers. He had 2 more archons than me I believe, and he had immortals. . . should I be trying to match his immortal count? Any help would be great
If I had to name one key mistake that ended up losing you the game, it would be that you overmade stalkers. You didn't scout his templar archives and his researching twilight council and didn't switch to zealots fast enough. Thus, in the final fight, you were left with inferior fighting units(stalkers) versus the superior zealot/archon count.
Also, with your huge amount of stalkers you're still not as aggressive as you could have been. Until he gets charge, You can very freely poke up to his army and pick off a few sentries. Rewatch the replay and imagine doing that against his army when he's parked outside his natural. Even after his charge finishes, you can still afford to be more aggressive with a higher stalker count, but instead you retreat back to your main and camp your own base.
Some other minor things: You forgot to bring 2 zealots and an archon in the final fight, which means you were actually down 3 archons.Archons are way more important than immortals for a fight like that. You tried to take a 3rd with an inferior army. You could have made more probes and faster probes when you scouted his expansion.
Other than that I have to say it was a pretty well played game by both.
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If your opponent goes pure blink stalker and you go robo->tc and got an immortal and a sentry - and they contain you at the bottom of your ramp, what's to stop them from force fielding the ramp when you blink down so your zealot(s),immortal(s),sentry arent in the battle and then just winning the fight because you had to spend your blink to get down whilst they can blink during the battle to micro - plus your non-stalker units aren't in the battle?
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shit man I think it's time for me to stop playing this game seriously shits getting real
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On August 10 2011 07:03 Dirichlet wrote:Hi. Could you help me understand where I went wrong in this replay? I usually open geikos 3gate, but I scouted early second gas so I dropped robo and twilight earlier than I usually do. I had a much high stalker count than him, and stayed at his front while my expo was going down. We were even on supplies going into the midgame and then I lost an engagement real bad and I'm not sure why. We had similar zealot numbers. He had 2 more archons than me I believe, and he had immortals. . . should I be trying to match his immortal count? Any help would be great I'll take notes as I go through the replay:
You scout an early second gas from the opponent and what looks like a 3-stalker build (2nd gate after core before any units), but still wait until 24 to take your own 2nd gas. You don't want to get behind in the gas. As soon as he does that, you have to match his gas and immediately deviate from Geiko's build.
Looks like it's not even a big deal because he delayed his tech so much - he must have been afraid of 4-gate.
Your observer gets into his base and you scout a robo. Now you start chronoboosting blink. Personally I think this is a mistake. When I scout a robo from the opponent I go charge and archons asap. But going blink seems viable so I doubt this decision lost you the game.
Blink finishes, and you've essentially got a bunch of blink stalkers, with an observer, against his gateway+immortal army. He's following up with blink now. This is an advantage to your opponent. You have a robo that you used purely for observers, meaning you are basically on pure blink against immortal blink at this point.
You have him contained with blink and you're expanding faster - good! But here's the thing: once his blink finishes and he pushes down the ramp with blink + immortals, you NEED a bunch of charge zealots or equal numbers of immortals yourself or you probably can't hold the expo. I'm not seeing you tech up after the contain. You're just sitting on blink stalkers while the opponent has immortals, blink and is getting chargelot archon.
Ok, you're going charge, good, well done.
You had a much faster expo but you're basically even in income and the opponent has caught up in supply at the 16 minute mark. This shouldn't have happened. And at this point in the game, he has a superior army. He has more zealots, he has 3 immortals, and he has more archons. Stalkers become crappier and crappier in straight up fights the longer the game goes, so your stalker advantage won't help you here.
The final battle: By the time all the zealots die, you have your stalkers and one archon left - he has 3 immortals, his stalkers, and 4 archons left. His army is just a better composition.
So if I can summarize this game, I'd probably say that you essentially opened blink and your opponent opened robo-twilight and won. I say this because you did start with the robo, but didn't make any real use of it beyond observers, which you didn't utilize to harass very much at all. You committed too much to blink stalkers while the opponent went immortal blink, and switched into chargelot archon a bit faster than you. You could have leveraged your expo advantage to probably win with superior zealot+archon numbers, but you let him catch up in economy and supply. In the final engagement, you just had too many stalkers, which his 3 immortals and superior zealot count would tear through.
That said, I generally liked your opening although the gas could have been sooner. You got an early advantage in that game with the blink contain. But you didn't properly leverage it.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 10 2011 07:33 Complete wrote: If your opponent goes pure blink stalker and you go robo->tc and got an immortal and a sentry - and they contain you at the bottom of your ramp, what's to stop them from force fielding the ramp when you blink down so your zealot(s),immortal(s),sentry arent in the battle and then just winning the fight because you had to spend your blink to get down whilst they can blink during the battle to micro - plus your non-stalker units aren't in the battle?
Players going robo/twilight should not get a high zealot count, usually getting either 0 or 1. In addition, the player going robo twilight should get at most 2 immortals along with his blink stalkers. Also, if the blink/sentry player is trying to contain his robo/twilight opponent, why is he doing so? It doesn't make sense unless he's making an expansion. So imagine this hypothetical situation where the blink stalker player has around 18 stalkers and a sentry. The robo/twilight player has 2 immortals, 1 zealot, 1 sentry, and 15 stalkers. The best case scenario for the blink player is that he forcefields everything but one immortal up the ramp. Then, at best for the blink player, he gets to fight 18 stalker/1 sentry vs 15 stalker/1 immortal.
Now for an even more convoluted answer: There are two types of blink builds, allin and macro. The difference is in the number of probes made, either cutting at around 24 or going all the way up to 30. Versus the the allin version, you will have 2 immortals but a 6 probe lead in econ. Versus a very econ heavy version, you can get away with making 1 immortal and thus have more blink stalkers. Therefore, the situation I postulated previously will lean even further towards the robo/blink player.
There's a lot of other minor reasons, but that's my main one.
And if all else fails, warp prism.
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Thanks for the help guys. I'm still trying to figure out how to play PvP properly. Should I have been building immortals while I had him contained/while my expo was going up? Or should I have been focusing on teching to archon, and adding zealots?
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On August 10 2011 08:20 Dirichlet wrote: Thanks for the help guys. I'm still trying to figure out how to play PvP properly. Should I have been building immortals while I had him contained/while my expo was going up? Or should I have been focusing on teching to archon, and adding zealots? Personally I'd have teched as fast as possible to chargelot archon and pretty much cut stalker production once you had the contain. Having a superior zealot and archon count is super important.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 10 2011 08:20 Dirichlet wrote: Thanks for the help guys. I'm still trying to figure out how to play PvP properly. Should I have been building immortals while I had him contained/while my expo was going up? Or should I have been focusing on teching to archon, and adding zealots?
It all depends on what you scout from your opponent. If he's focusing more heavily on stalker, then get an immortal or 2. If he's transitioning really quickly to zealot/archon off of 1 base, then transition yourself to that composition while still maintaining a slight stalker lead for map control.
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United States8476 Posts
Added a new replay from the new Liquid recuirt, LiquidHero! This one showcases late game mirror where both players go the same composition. I believe this is the first game to do so.
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HuK is playing with robo before TC also recently. He goes obs first and no immortals when he isn't up against a 4 gate. I have to say, this makes much sense...maybe I'll switch from my usual TC before robo.
Early obs accompanied by stalkers gives amazing mapcontrol.
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This is thread is sensational. I've felt my PvP stagnate since the beginning of the season so I'll be trying this build out immediately and will probably come back to report (of my failures).
Thank you, OP, this is truly a great guide.
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Great guide, finally got around to reading it in depth.
I have some questions, when you talk about dealing with blink builds, you say you should contain the blink player who is not expanding. Generally, the blink player will always try to keep you from pushing out by threatening to back stab, how do you get in a position to contain ? Also, I fail to see how you can contain someone who can blink out of his base ?
The biggest issue I'm having when playing this style however is vs the mass colossi. You state in your guide that your army composition beats colossi in small numbers (< 200 food). You say that therefore, you should force an engagement early on on open ground (either when he takes his third and tries to defend it, or when he tries to punish your early third). However, what do you do vs a player that just maxes out on 2 bases and pushes out with 8+ colossi ? In PvP I feel that having a large econ advantage isn't nearly as important as in other match ups, and one can lose a game with a 30 probe and 2 base lead if you just lose the big fight (which you will if you try to archon/zealot/immortal vs 8+ colossi armies.). If you try to break his 2 base turtle, your melee units will break in his choke and sim city, and if you let him max out on 2 bases (and low probe count) your army will get war-of-the-world-ed and 20 reinforcing warpgates and 5000 minerals banked up wont help you much.
I feel at this point of the game, where he decides to turtle in response to your third and army composition, it's too late for you to tech switch into something cost efficient late game such as void rays or colossi and you are basically stuck playing with an inferior unit composition. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Once again, thanks for the awesome guide, it has really helped me improve my knowledge of the matchup.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 14 2011 20:27 Geiko wrote: Great guide, finally got around to reading it in depth.
I have some questions, when you talk about dealing with blink builds, you say you should contain the blink player who is not expanding. Generally, the blink player will always try to keep you from pushing out by threatening to back stab, how do you get in a position to contain ? Also, I fail to see how you can contain someone who can blink out of his base ?
I wrote a response a long time ago but it got erased and I didn't feel like rewriting it. But here's a shortened version of my answer.
I don't exactly mean contain your opponent by the traditional sense of the word. You can't really keep him in his base, but rather you can somewhat pin him down. With the observer, you can keep track of his army movements easily. Thus, you can stay between him and your base, making sure he can't base trade and slowly close in on him. Also, because he doesn't have vision of your army and he knows you have vision of his, it will make him much more timid because of fear of blinking into a trap.
Also, if you get a big enough lead, you can just straight up sit outside his base and truly contain him. Check out kiwikaki vs huk on xelnaga from my guide for an example of this.
On August 14 2011 20:27 Geiko wrote: The biggest issue I'm having when playing this style however is vs the mass colossi. You state in your guide that your army composition beats colossi in small numbers (< 200 food). You say that therefore, you should force an engagement early on on open ground (either when he takes his third and tries to defend it, or when he tries to punish your early third). However, what do you do vs a player that just maxes out on 2 bases and pushes out with 8+ colossi ? In PvP I feel that having a large econ advantage isn't nearly as important as in other match ups, and one can lose a game with a 30 probe and 2 base lead if you just lose the big fight (which you will if you try to archon/zealot/immortal vs 8+ colossi armies.). If you try to break his 2 base turtle, your melee units will break in his choke and sim city, and if you let him max out on 2 bases (and low probe count) your army will get war-of-the-world-ed and 20 reinforcing warpgates and 5000 minerals banked up wont help you much.
I feel at this point of the game, where he decides to turtle in response to your third and army composition, it's too late for you to tech switch into something cost efficient late game such as void rays or colossi and you are basically stuck playing with an inferior unit composition. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Once again, thanks for the awesome guide, it has really helped me improve my knowledge of the matchup.
You'll do much better versus a maxed collosi army than you think. Think about it this way. If you kill all his zealots, you'll end up winning no matter what remains. It's a bit of an exaggeration, but 6 immortals can take on a lot of collosi/stalker.
If he tries to camp like this, make as many archons as you can and add as many gateways as you can. This will let you have a very strong initial army and be able to reinforce very quickly with your extra gateways.
Also, position yourself in an arc outside his base. This will let you have the positional advantage as he tries to break your contain.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
those replay link do not work for me, can u upload replays somewhere else and pm me with the link pls
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United States8476 Posts
On August 21 2011 07:56 EliteReplay wrote: those replay link do not work for me, can u upload replays somewhere else and pm me with the link pls Please get a friend to download them and send them to you.
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i was just gonna post this build actually, been working on it for as long as i can remember. Theres a few variations of when to attack but if anyone wants to see how to play extremely well with it and hit at a great timing, watch this vod:
http://www.twitch.tv/gosucoachingtv/b/293070026
its part 2 should be 36.49 mins long just jump to 19ish in to watch. liquidhero goes for the robo twilight and just owns axslav who 1 base collis.
Whats great about this build is that nothing hard counters it. If you learn how to not lose to a 4 gate then u have immorts ready for blink stalks, you can wall ur front around 7 mins just in case of dts, and I havent lost very many games to zealot archon by just going colli instead and turtling... everytime ive see a big colli vs archon fight ive very rarely seen archon win in the late late game.
I have occassionally lost to an early expand but thats just my fault for not checking early enough.
Before watching this hero vod, my build revolved around basically all inning at around the 10-11 minute mark with 8-10 zeals 8-10 stalks 2-3 immorts and a sentry or 2. I blink to kill or busy the colli and let the rest of my army fight head on. I actually pull gas and add a gate (up to 4) for this and have had a good amount of success.
after watching hero, i gotta try his style a little bit more. Add a few extra blink stalk, pick off outside buildings and stray units, and expand behind it. I have no idea if his forward blink to kill the immort and colli were good since it seemed just hopeful but damn that worked out well for him. I liked that he hit right inbetween 1 and 2 colli which i think is the best time in theory to hit with this build.
im a bit angry now cause ill probably be facing more mirrors in the future and that was the whole point to making this build. As you can see in a mirror situation theres a lot going on and a lot to consider... what i liked that you wrote was expand and defend. That does seem optimal since the mirror should have no massive units for a long time to break a ff in the front (only works on maps where the nat has a ramp) but i guess any sort of choke could do.
regardless, thanks for posting...
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Hi monk, I like the write up and I'm trying to learn this style now but I have a question regarding the following statement:
On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Geiko's defensive 3 gate is another good choice as long as you don't get too many stalkers early on thus delaying your robo. The timing of the robo is very important for this build, as you want scouting information as soon as possible. [/url]
I use this build but it feels like a 3 Stalker rush -> Robo gets just a fast a Robo as I do. If I scout him making an early second GW (after Core whilst not making a Zealot) can I go for a 1 gate Robo build or do I have to get 1 or 2 GW before Robo?
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United States8476 Posts
On August 22 2011 19:30 Tekakan wrote:Hi monk, I like the write up and I'm trying to learn this style now but I have a question regarding the following statement: Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Geiko's defensive 3 gate is another good choice as long as you don't get too many stalkers early on thus delaying your robo. The timing of the robo is very important for this build, as you want scouting information as soon as possible. I use this build but it feels like a 3 Stalker rush -> Robo gets just a fast a Robo as I do. If I scout him making an early second GW (after Core whilst not making a Zealot) can I go for a 1 gate Robo build or do I have to get 1 or 2 GW before Robo?
No, he can still do a hardcore 4 gate that hits at 5:45 with a 2 gate no zealot opening. I would recommend a gas steal along with a safe PvP build.
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On August 22 2011 19:39 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 19:30 Tekakan wrote:Hi monk, I like the write up and I'm trying to learn this style now but I have a question regarding the following statement: On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Geiko's defensive 3 gate is another good choice as long as you don't get too many stalkers early on thus delaying your robo. The timing of the robo is very important for this build, as you want scouting information as soon as possible. I use this build but it feels like a 3 Stalker rush -> Robo gets just a fast a Robo as I do. If I scout him making an early second GW (after Core whilst not making a Zealot) can I go for a 1 gate Robo build or do I have to get 1 or 2 GW before Robo? No, he can still do a hardcore 4 gate that hits at 5:45 with a 2 gate no zealot opening. I would recommend a gas steal along with a safe PvP build.
Thanks for the advice, it worked out really well. I got to try it in my first ladder game after reading your post.
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What a detailed guide - well done Monk!
I am finding it tough to work out the difference between this guide and Cecil's similar Twilight Council PvP. Here is what I think there difference is: 1) You advocate a robo/blink build where you can get an observer to scout asap and immortals to win direct fights. Cecil's guide goes for blink/robo (or blink/forge) where u use blink to gain map control. 2) Robo/blink is "safer" becasue altho u lose map control, you have stronger units (immortals and blink stalkers) to win direct fights and also have an earlier observer to see exactly what the opponent is doing. Blink/robo is safe in that u have map control, but that relies on good micro and scouting from what units u see at the front of the opponent's base as you harass.
Is that right??
Some other questions about your build generally if u dont mind 1) What is the key thing you look for to know you are safe from 4gate to put down your robo? Is it pretty much the 2nd gas timing (and then the later probe scout sent in to scout unit composition)?
2) Regarding blink-first opponents: a) You said that you should contain a blink all-in player (if he hasnt expanded) and expand behind this. In this case, do you get your Twlight Council before or after the nexus? b) If the earliest blink is at 6:40, and say you put ur robo down earliest 6mins (e.g. Antiga Shipyard replay), how do you even know at this point if its blink for certain? If you are waiting for observers to confirm he is going blink, wont this be later (like 7:30min ish)??
Thx!!
Edit: Just realised I accidently posted teh same paragraph twice - changed now.
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If Blizzard were to increase the time of the Blink research would that really affect this build much? The way I see it less people will be going for Blink and 4 gate and more will go for Robo thus making it easier to throw down that TC faster. It will also delay the blink all in builds which seemed to be the biggest threat judging by your OP.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 29 2011 16:16 J.E.G. wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12409Lost this one. I feel like i was way ahead w/ my ninja expo and did some decent infrastructure damage but in the final engagement i get rolled vs 5 colli any tips?
I'm just gonna comment mainly on the final battle:
- you had a 4th going up but only 6 gateways. Instead, you should have about 8-10 gateways.
- your immortal count was too high. 7 is way too many for 170 food. Aim for 5 or lower.
- your archons got stuck. Try to position them before a fight.
- you waste a blink before the battle and thus couldn't target his collosi with an aggressive blink.
- you fought in a choke.
- your upgrades were the same. Not a mistake persay, but you could do better.
- you didn't have a forward pylon to reinforce with waves of zealots during the fight.
You actually were very close to winning the last fight. If he hadn't warped in a set of zealots at the end, your immortals could have been close to cleaning up his army.
Few other things: I didn't understand your choice to make 3 immortals early game. That map probably isn't the best to go a gateway based army, especially in close positions. You could be more aggressive with your stalkers. For example, all you have to do is poke into his natural and blink out. This will both pressure him and allow you to scout his army.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 24 2011 09:11 bankai wrote: What a detailed guide - well done Monk!
I am finding it tough to work out the difference between this guide and Cecil's similar Twilight Council PvP. Here is what I think there difference is: 1) You advocate a robo/blink build where you can get an observer to scout asap and immortals to win direct fights. Cecil's guide goes for blink/robo (or blink/forge) where u use blink to gain map control. 2) Robo/blink is "safer" becasue altho u lose map control, you have stronger units (immortals and blink stalkers) to win direct fights and also have an earlier observer to see exactly what the opponent is doing. Blink/robo is safe in that u have map control, but that relies on good micro and scouting from what units u see at the front of the opponent's base as you harass.
Is that right??
Yea, you got the basic gists. Robo/blink is only safer because of the observer. You actually want to stay away from immortals as much as possible. Also, with the robo, you can easily scout his tech choice instead of having to blink a stalker up his ramp and possibly losing it. Plus, you get easier harass mid game.
I actually open blink quite often, but I don't play it the way Cecil plays it. I really dislike the forge and cannons for detection, so instead i go blink when I'm reasonably sure dts aren't coming. Also, if you read our guides carefully, we advocate different responses mid game.
On August 24 2011 09:11 bankai wrote:Some other questions about your build generally if u dont mind 1) What is the key thing you look for to know you are safe from 4gate to put down your robo? Is it pretty much the 2nd gas timing (and then the later probe scout sent in to scout unit composition)? 2) Regarding blink-first opponents: a) You said that you should contain a blink all-in player (if he hasnt expanded) and expand behind this. In this case, do you get your Twlight Council before or after the nexus? b) If the earliest blink is at 6:40, and say you put ur robo down earliest 6mins (e.g. Antiga Shipyard replay), how do you even know at this point if its blink for certain? If you are waiting for observers to confirm he is going blink, wont this be later (like 7:30min ish)?? Thx!! Edit: Just realised I accidently posted teh same paragraph twice - changed now.
1.- Check how much gas he's mined. If he just throws down a 2nd gas and doesn't mine from it, it could still be a 4 gate.
- Check for the existence of a 3rd pylon.
- Check chornoboost energy. If he's used 3 on non-warpgates, it's less likely to be a 4 gate. If he's used 4 or more, it's probably not 4 gate.
2. a. Twilight council first. b. As I've said before in this thread, a 6:40 blink can only come if he gets a super fast 2nd gas at around 3:00. If he does that, you don't need an anti 4 gate build and can just go 1 gate robo. If you are unsure on whether it's blink or not, start making an immortal and cancel it if you can confirm not blink.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 29 2011 09:45 Tekakan wrote: If Blizzard were to increase the time of the Blink research would that really affect this build much? The way I see it less people will be going for Blink and 4 gate and more will go for Robo thus making it easier to throw down that TC faster. It will also delay the blink all in builds which seemed to be the biggest threat judging by your OP.
Blink research increase won't affect this actual build that much. However, I actually do foresee more collosi builds becuase of immortal buff/blink nerf. MC has said so himself that he thinks this will be the metagame shift.
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On August 29 2011 21:55 4kmonk wrote:I'm just gonna comment mainly on the final battle: - you had a 4th going up but only 6 gateways. Instead, you should have about 8-10 gateways.
- your immortal count was too high. 7 is way too many for 170 food. Aim for 5 or lower.
- your archons got stuck. Try to position them before a fight.
- you waste a blink before the battle and thus couldn't target his collosi with an aggressive blink.
- you fought in a choke.
- your upgrades were the same. Not a mistake persay, but you could do better.
- you didn't have a forward pylon to reinforce with waves of zealots during the fight.
You actually were very close to winning the last fight. If he hadn't warped in a set of zealots at the end, your immortals could have been close to cleaning up his army. Few other things: I didn't understand your choice to make 3 immortals early game. That map probably isn't the best to go a gateway based army, especially in close positions. You could be more aggressive with your stalkers. For example, all you have to do is poke into his natural and blink out. This will both pressure him and allow you to scout his army.
So should I only make one or two immortals early on? In the guide I understood that you want to get some immortals out once you aren't getting 4-gated to counter possible blink all-in, so i started cranking them out. Should i just go for two in the early game as per the possibility of the 7:40 blink all-in?
Also, quick question about vs. a colossus 1base all-in: would you recommend bringing your entire army to the base trade or only use the blink stalkers in the base trade? I find it hard to dodge his ball with my non-blinking army and get into his base, so i usually just defend with it to soften his ball up, but it just gets pointlessly rolled, eventually leading to my opponent finding my hidden bases which i can't really defend with only blink stalkers.
Thanks a lot for the help!!
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United States8476 Posts
On August 30 2011 04:10 J.E.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 21:55 4kmonk wrote:On August 29 2011 16:16 J.E.G. wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12409Lost this one. I feel like i was way ahead w/ my ninja expo and did some decent infrastructure damage but in the final engagement i get rolled vs 5 colli any tips? I'm just gonna comment mainly on the final battle: - you had a 4th going up but only 6 gateways. Instead, you should have about 8-10 gateways.
- your immortal count was too high. 7 is way too many for 170 food. Aim for 5 or lower.
- your archons got stuck. Try to position them before a fight.
- you waste a blink before the battle and thus couldn't target his collosi with an aggressive blink.
- you fought in a choke.
- your upgrades were the same. Not a mistake persay, but you could do better.
- you didn't have a forward pylon to reinforce with waves of zealots during the fight.
You actually were very close to winning the last fight. If he hadn't warped in a set of zealots at the end, your immortals could have been close to cleaning up his army. Few other things: I didn't understand your choice to make 3 immortals early game. That map probably isn't the best to go a gateway based army, especially in close positions. You could be more aggressive with your stalkers. For example, all you have to do is poke into his natural and blink out. This will both pressure him and allow you to scout his army. So should I only make one or two immortals early on? In the guide I understood that you want to get some immortals out once you aren't getting 4-gated to counter possible blink all-in, so i started cranking them out. Should i just go for two in the early game as per the possibility of the 7:40 blink all-in? Also, quick question about vs. a colossus 1base all-in: would you recommend bringing your entire army to the base trade or only use the blink stalkers in the base trade? I find it hard to dodge his ball with my non-blinking army and get into his base, so i usually just defend with it to soften his ball up, but it just gets pointlessly rolled, eventually leading to my opponent finding my hidden bases which i can't really defend with only blink stalkers. Thanks a lot for the help!!
Try to stay away from immortals as much as possible if he's not blink allining you. For example, you should have gotten 0 in your game. However, get 2 as fast as possible if you're getting blink allined.
Don't bring the rest of your army when you're base trading. However, you shouldn't have many other units anyways.
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On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army.
Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors.
BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly.
the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro.
I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least
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On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least
Are you PeTeR on the NA ladder? If so, we were on equal bases. In fact, all of my expansions went up slightly faster than yours. It was a fun game, though.
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This has been my experience as well. Then there is the issue when armor upgrades get higher. Zealots just get mopped up too quickly imo
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pretty sure it clearly states BELOW 200/200
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United States8476 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least
Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay.
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On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least
Telling someone they are wrong through your "experience", without providing a replay or referencing a pro game with available VOD, is the leading cause of forum misinformation. 4 out of 5 posters recommend you back up your statements and floss daily.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 01 2011 04:05 Archontas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Telling someone they are wrong through your "experience", without providing a replay or referencing a pro game with available VOD, is the leading cause of forum misinformation. 4 out of 5 posters recommend you back up your statements and floss daily.
lol well said
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On September 01 2011 03:57 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay.
Sry for the wrong statement, you clearly said below 200. Still, i'm a little confused at how much is "below" to you. Can you be more specific? Also, if thing got to a point where you and your oponent maxed on those armies, what is the right thing to do? (beside, not getting to that point ofc )
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On September 01 2011 04:05 Archontas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Telling someone they are wrong through your "experience", without providing a replay or referencing a pro game with available VOD, is the leading cause of forum misinformation. 4 out of 5 posters recommend you back up your statements and floss daily.
You are very right sir. I provided no evidence of this and also misread some statements the OP said. I'll give this strat one moer chance, and if i fail i will come back, with replays and everything. Sorry for the inconvenience. Wish me luck !
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On September 01 2011 05:39 DrStein wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 03:57 4kmonk wrote:On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay. Sry for the wrong statement, you clearly said below 200. Still, i'm a little confused at how much is "below" to you. Can you be more specific? Also, if thing got to a point where you and your oponent maxed on those armies, what is the right thing to do? (beside, not getting to that point ofc )
Not really sure what to tell you, you're basically asking "what do I do if my opponent has a better army than me?" Standard-issue advice applies - don't fight it head on, try and catch him out of position, snipe units, drop his worker line, etc.
But yeah, like 4kmonk's guide says, if it does get to this point, it means you let him take a 3rd base without punishment and the game is now his to lose. I'd love for someone to post a replay where they pulled it off.
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One of the best guides I have ever seen, ever, and might help me come to grips with the most cringeworthy matchup, ever.
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Awesome idea I got stomped by this build just last week and thought nothing of it bow thinking back that was a super strong lategame composition
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Italy12246 Posts
I tend to suck against people that delay colossus (say our openings mirror, but then he goes for colo rather than charge/archon), or go for a colossus expand, because if he plays really passive i find it's quite hard to find a good open area to engage on many maps. In that case, is it a good rule of thumb to go for some kind of timing (get up to 6-7 gates and just go) when he is getting range and his first 2 colossi (assuming i see 2 robos and/or a support bay with an obs)?
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On September 01 2011 03:57 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay.
There is a really nice replay of Dream.Attero vs Vile.State in the last TL open (nr 22). The game is on shakuras plateau and one players goes for 5 colo, the other for chargelot and archons. The player with colossi is ahead due to the opening stages of the game: his army costs 1000 more minerals then the archon/chargelot player. Yet when the battle occurs, the colossi players loses the battle and eventually the game, even tough he was clearly ahead before the engagement.
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On September 05 2011 22:00 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 03:57 4kmonk wrote:On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote: Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay. There is a really nice replay of Dream.Attero vs Vile.State in the last TL open (nr 22). The game is on shakuras plateau and one players goes for 5 colo, the other for chargelot and archons. The player with colossi is ahead due to the opening stages of the game: his army costs 1000 more minerals then the archon/chargelot player. Yet when the battle occurs, the colossi players loses the battle and eventually the game, even tough he was clearly ahead before the engagement. The same thing happened with mana vs Ace on Shattered.
Really nice guide, thanks for posting +all the work. I have pretty much been a fan of this since I saw it poping up so thanks for writing a guide on it ^^.
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hi i dont understand why you would build the twilight council and a robo and not build zelaots for charge and build immortals which dont profit from blink? sorry for my bad english hope i could help with your build
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United States8476 Posts
On September 05 2011 21:45 Teoita wrote: I tend to suck against people that delay colossus (say our openings mirror, but then he goes for colo rather than charge/archon), or go for a colossus expand, because if he plays really passive i find it's quite hard to find a good open area to engage on many maps. In that case, is it a good rule of thumb to go for some kind of timing (get up to 6-7 gates and just go) when he is getting range and his first 2 colossi (assuming i see 2 robos and/or a support bay with an obs)?
Imo, in most cases, the worst thing you can do is tech to collosi in a mirror. This does 2 things. Firstly, you can easily die to timings while you're getting collosi, as the investment into robotics support bay + range + collosi doesn't really break even until around 3 collosi. Even if your opponent decides to play macro, the collosi player is forced into a defensive position. Finally, by going collosi, it allows your opponent's blink stalkers to be very useful. They can now go suicide for collosi instead of firing into an opposing zealot ling.
Versus collosi expand, I detail how to play versus that in my guide. I've seen lots of timings work extremely well versus delayed collosi expands, but it's completely viable to play a macro game versus collosi expands.
On September 08 2011 06:22 yagsllab wrote: hi i dont understand why you would build the twilight council and a robo and not build zelaots for charge and build immortals which dont profit from blink? sorry for my bad english hope i could help with your build
I hope I made it clear enough in my guide why I do the things I suggest. Short answer for why I don't get charge early: It's not part of my strategy and it wouldn't work if it were. Short answer for immortals: to defend vs blink allins.
To everyone else: I'm on vacation atm so I can't really watch replays or anything.
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Great guide, I guys HuK has already read it . Typical HuK style as of late, too bad hes using it in the "wrong" situations. Like doing it blind vs a 15nexus first... :s. Not good.
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i think you got a point there remorse i found that if opponent fake 4 gate into expand by 6:45 when you realise no 4 gate is coming you cannot break their expand so you re forced into expanding yourself then they re usually so ahead with zealot charge / stalker blink they can just overwhelm your poor composition with 2 immortal in it at least on open natural
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When would u usually decide to expand? Would u usually expand after u determined it's safe and get blink, or what? :O
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United States8476 Posts
I think i covered that pretty well in my guide. If you're still unclear, maybe ask a more specific question?
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Italy12246 Posts
I just lost a game doing this build vs a colossus build, and would like to know how i could have played better. This is the replay: http://drop.sc/35082
My thought process during the match was this: i open with a defensive 3gate as i see he takes no fast second gas and has lots of crhono saved up; at the same time i'm faking a 4gate to make him play honest. I send out a probe around 6.00 (a bit late), and since i see no units i figure he's not 4gating, so i start teching when i only have 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and a sentry out.
Since i saw no fast second gas i throw down my twilight shortly after the robo, as he's probably far away from getting blink and i'm not particularly afraid of a blink allin.
At around 9.00 i poke his nat and see lots of zealots and no expo, so i correctly assume colossi; i decide to move out on the map and start harassing as blink finishes while my nexus completes. My harass is succesful enough in delaying his push, so he expands.
The moment i see it i start on zealot charge and cut stalker production; eventually i try to add a templar archives, extra gates and forge but he pushes with 3 colossi and a bunch of gateway units and he just rolls me right before my extra gates and templar archives finish.
So, what could i have done better? The guide mentions adding gates and gasses faster while delaying tech a bit, was this my main problem? Thanks a lot
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United States8476 Posts
On September 16 2011 22:08 Teoita wrote:I just lost a game doing this build vs a colossus build, and would like to know how i could have played better. This is the replay: http://drop.sc/35082My thought process during the match was this: i open with a defensive 3gate as i see he takes no fast second gas and has lots of crhono saved up; at the same time i'm faking a 4gate to make him play honest. I send out a probe around 6.00 (a bit late), and since i see no units i figure he's not 4gating, so i start teching when i only have 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and a sentry out. Since i saw no fast second gas i throw down my twilight shortly after the robo, as he's probably far away from getting blink and i'm not particularly afraid of a blink allin. At around 9.00 i poke his nat and see lots of zealots and no expo, so i correctly assume colossi; i decide to move out on the map and start harassing as blink finishes while my nexus completes. My harass is succesful enough in delaying his push, so he expands. The moment i see it i start on zealot charge and cut stalker production; eventually i try to add a templar archives, extra gates and forge but he pushes with 3 colossi and a bunch of gateway units and he just rolls me right before my extra gates and templar archives finish. So, what could i have done better? The guide mentions adding gates and gasses faster while delaying tech a bit, was this my main problem? Thanks a lot
Losing your first probe is pretty big.
You're not aggressive enough with your first stalkers. On that map, you can safely position your stalkers at your natural ramp at the very least. If you had more map control by not losing your initial probe, you could more safely conclude it's not a 4 gate incoming. With that you can be more aggro. You see he didn't get his 2nd gas early, so once you rule out 4 gate at around 6:00, you can very safely poke around the map with your stalkers for quite a long time, as you mention yourself that you're not afraid of a blink allin for a while.
If you get more map control because of all those things I just mentioned, you can cut a lot more corners, such as skipping immortal, getting faster observers, faster twilight, and faster expansion.
Your harass could be a lot better. You lose your zealot/immortal/sentry combo needlessly. You get your gates late and not enough of them. Hotkey your stalkers and other units separately. You don't scout that he cut probes for basically an allin. You target his collosi with your entire army when you should a move your zealot and immortals. You should blink to the side of his army to target collosi instead of into his army. Your macro wasn't good because you didn't have enough gates early enough. You were floating tons of money during the fight. Bad positioning. Your army was in a clump when you engaged him. You had too many probes at your main.
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Italy12246 Posts
Thanks a lot for the feedback. One more question: as a general rule of thumb, i would go immortal first if i see a second gas, and obs first if i don't? Are there any other hthings i should look for when making that decision (other than poking his ramp and seeing the stalker/zealot count)?
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United States8476 Posts
On September 16 2011 23:24 Teoita wrote: Thanks a lot for the feedback. One more question: as a general rule of thumb, i would go immortal first if i see a second gas, and obs first if i don't? Are there any other hthings i should look for when making that decision (other than poking his ramp and seeing the stalker/zealot count)?
That's more your call. I almost always go obs first, as versus 2 gas builds, I would go 1 gate robo. If you go immortal first versus 1 gate robo into collosi, you'll be more behind than if you're different. Play around to see what you're comfortable with.
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I can't fully get my head around the intricacies of PvP but this thread has already helped me alot in this mu. I dont really have any questions I just wanted to say thanks!
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How do you think the new patch has changed this style? Do you think its still necessary to check for a blink allin before putting down the twilight council?
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Has anybody else been losing lately doing chargelot+archon vs mass colossus? I used to roll this composition as long as I expo'd at the same time or earlier, but I don't know what it is, lately I see a colossus army and think "ok easy win" and charge into it, and all my stuff gets killed and I lose. I'm very confused right now. Is there some 'magic number' of colossus at which point chargelot+archon stops winning? If so, what do I transition to and when?
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On September 24 2011 11:04 GomJabbar wrote: Has anybody else been losing lately doing chargelot+archon vs mass colossus? I used to roll this composition as long as I expo'd at the same time or earlier, but I don't know what it is, lately I see a colossus army and think "ok easy win" and charge into it, and all my stuff gets killed and I lose. I'm very confused right now. Is there some 'magic number' of colossus at which point chargelot+archon stops winning? If so, what do I transition to and when?
Colossus generally get strong when you have like 4+ of them but I think if you mix in some immortals as well you should be ok. Immortals + archons just tank colossus damage so well.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 24 2011 11:04 GomJabbar wrote: Has anybody else been losing lately doing chargelot+archon vs mass colossus? I used to roll this composition as long as I expo'd at the same time or earlier, but I don't know what it is, lately I see a colossus army and think "ok easy win" and charge into it, and all my stuff gets killed and I lose. I'm very confused right now. Is there some 'magic number' of colossus at which point chargelot+archon stops winning? If so, what do I transition to and when?
Collosi versus gateway immortal is very hard to predict sometimes. You have to look at each game individually. If you post a replay, I bet I can shed some light.
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Loving this! I'm in gold league and its really challenging for me to pull this style off, because of its reactive nature from scouting information (really stretches my multitasking to its limits) But i like it even tho it has cost me quite a few losses from macro failure. Anyways, i was wondering if there are any openers, post 1.4, that will get you your robo earlier and still keep you safe from 4 gate? I've done some searching on tl, but the builds i found were kinda outdated and i werent sure if they're still valid.
Thanks again for a great post
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Italy12246 Posts
What would you do build wise vs a phoenix allin? I'm not quite sure what the optimal setup is...i feel like both immortals and sentries are quite useeless vs phoenixes because they get lifted easily, with the patch blink barely comes in time and even then if you invest in both a robo just for 1-2 observers and a council you risk being heavily outnumbered. Do you have any tips?
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United States8476 Posts
On October 01 2011 02:14 Teoita wrote: What would you do build wise vs a phoenix allin? I'm not quite sure what the optimal setup is...i feel like both immortals and sentries are quite useeless vs phoenixes because they get lifted easily, with the patch blink barely comes in time and even then if you invest in both a robo just for 1-2 observers and a council you risk being heavily outnumbered. Do you have any tips?
You can get twilight safely versus phoenix and you should. Try not to let your opponent kill your sentry/sentries with phoenix. Keep track of his army with your obs. Focus phoenix with your stalkers during a fight if you can. Keep your macro up. Post a replay if you have further troubles.
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Good build.. some small little kinks but they are really just preference.. I enjoyed the little warning you put in there for the lower level players and the fact that you thought it would take someone around 30 minutes to read... I don't know anyone who would take 30 minutes to read that now iamke55's posts take about 30 minutes to completely understand :D
BUT i got off topic, THIS IS a good build over all. Especially with the new patch.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 01 2011 19:24 Wak.Turtle wrote: Good build.. some small little kinks but they are really just preference.. I enjoyed the little warning you put in there for the lower level players and the fact that you thought it would take someone around 30 minutes to read... I don't know anyone who would take 30 minutes to read that now iamke55's posts take about 30 minutes to completely understand :D
BUT i got off topic, THIS IS a good build over all. Especially with the new patch.
Iono, how long does it take to read?
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so you'll always be at a disadvantage if your opponent does a greedy mirror build (i.e. gate robo gate gate) like huk vs kiwi on shattered?
should kiwi have just sat in his base and pump out a couple immortals while delaying his blink?
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The thing that frustrates me about this style is that I feel so weak to so many things. A good chargelot/archon timing, phoenix play and colossus all ins are all really tricky to handle properly. You mention that you should be able to deny all phoenix harass with the build, but usually I end up in a weird spot where I have 3-4 stalkers just as a couple of phoenix get to my base. I don't have the damage output yet to stop them from sniping a few probes, and my robo loses a ton of utility.
So far I've found that immediately chrono boosting out a warp prism and sneaking it out of your base is super useful, because in the early game if you pressure with your main army at his natural he needs to have his phoenix with his ground army in order to have a chance. This opens up a good timing for a zealot drop into the main, but it's very tricky, as the phoenix can get free reign over your base for a bit (There are some good replays of people using this warp prism timing vs axslav).
I just wish there was a way I could feel more comfortable using this build.
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Hey, apologies for the semi-big necro post, but this guide doesn't seem to be outdated at all so whatever. Anyway-
In the Colossus into Macro game section, you acknowledge that Chargelot/Archon will consistently beat Colossi in foods under maxed. However, I'm unclear as to what to do stop the other guy from GETTING to that max on a lot of maps.
For example, on Metalopolis, what's stopping him from just sitting back on his main and his natural and getting a 200/200 army and then pushing straight into you while taking another base behind his aggression? I'd assume that you'd just want to take a 3rd pretty early, but would you ever want to get a fourth? Would you want to transition into colossi yourself? I don't -think- a baserace would work out at this point since you'd be working with much less of your main army and he'd presumably have blink at this point.
I dunno, this is the one part of the PvP matchup that I don't understand. Thanks in advance for the help!
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I would love to hear about the new ideas you have with this build monk. I know you mentioned you have them so I want to see/hear em!
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United States8476 Posts
On December 12 2011 03:37 Zarent wrote: Hey, apologies for the semi-big necro post, but this guide doesn't seem to be outdated at all so whatever. Anyway-
In the Colossus into Macro game section, you acknowledge that Chargelot/Archon will consistently beat Colossi in foods under maxed. However, I'm unclear as to what to do stop the other guy from GETTING to that max on a lot of maps.
For example, on Metalopolis, what's stopping him from just sitting back on his main and his natural and getting a 200/200 army and then pushing straight into you while taking another base behind his aggression? I'd assume that you'd just want to take a 3rd pretty early, but would you ever want to get a fourth? Would you want to transition into colossi yourself? I don't -think- a baserace would work out at this point since you'd be working with much less of your main army and he'd presumably have blink at this point.
I dunno, this is the one part of the PvP matchup that I don't understand. Thanks in advance for the help!
On December 12 2011 03:41 vaderseven wrote: I would love to hear about the new ideas you have with this build monk. I know you mentioned you have them so I want to see/hear em! The guide is a bit outdated in many ways, just 4 months after I wrote it. A lot has changed since then. There was a patch. Some strategies got more popular, some more outdated. The most popularly played maps have changed. There's a lot of new tactics that have popped up. A lot of these things have shifted my previous recommendations. For example, there are some situations where I highly recommend a colossi transition instead of the zealot/archon/immortal transition. That being said, I probably won't update this guide in the near future, mostly because it doesn't interest me at the moment. Maybe next year.
Versus colossi camping on 2 base, there's a variety of options. But first I'd like to preface it by saying that on some maps, a colossi transition is just simply the better transition. These are mostly maps that have a very easily defended 3rd, such as calm before the storm and antiga shipyards. A map like xelnaga caverns is a perfect example of a map that doesn't have an easily defended 3rd.
Anyways, vs 2 base colossi, if he's on maxing on colossi on 2 bases, you can heavily outupgrade him and attempt to flank. Versus an army maxed off of single robo, your oppnoent will only have around 6 colossi by the time he's maxed, which is workable. With superior economy and good gateway reinforcements, you'll do well versus even a maxed army. The problem is when your opponent is on around 10 colossi, usually produced off of 2 robo. However, this is generally not safe from the colossi player, as a zealot/archon/immortal allin is very potent if your opponent skimps on units early on, especially if he doesn't make a gateway wall.
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Hey Monk, do you open 1gate robo into 3gate obs blink now, or still 3gate into robo?
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On December 12 2011 04:48 NrGmonk wrote:
Anyways, vs 2 base colossi, if he's on maxing on colossi on 2 bases, you can heavily outupgrade him and attempt to flank. Versus an army maxed off of single robo, your oppnoent will only have around 6 colossi by the time he's maxed, which is workable. With superior economy and good gateway reinforcements, you'll do well versus even a maxed army. [b]The problem is when your opponent is on around 10 colossi, usually produced off of 2 robo. However, this is generally not safe from the colossi player, as a zealot/archon/immortal allin is very potent if your opponent skimps on units early on, especially if he doesn't make a gateway wall.[b]
So how would this zealot/archon/immortal all-in work? In my experience, just bumrushing straight up into the natural when the opponent has colossi never works, even if he has ~6 and a small gateway wall. In chokes they seem to be too good unless you can get a flank, but that's impossible given the campiness of the composition?
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United States8476 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:06 Oreo7 wrote: Hey Monk, do you open 1gate robo into 3gate obs blink now, or still 3gate into robo? Depends on scouting
On December 12 2011 05:32 Zarent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 04:48 NrGmonk wrote:
Anyways, vs 2 base colossi, if he's on maxing on colossi on 2 bases, you can heavily outupgrade him and attempt to flank. Versus an army maxed off of single robo, your oppnoent will only have around 6 colossi by the time he's maxed, which is workable. With superior economy and good gateway reinforcements, you'll do well versus even a maxed army. [b]The problem is when your opponent is on around 10 colossi, usually produced off of 2 robo. However, this is generally not safe from the colossi player, as a zealot/archon/immortal allin is very potent if your opponent skimps on units early on, especially if he doesn't make a gateway wall.[b] So how would this zealot/archon/immortal all-in work? In my experience, just bumrushing straight up into the natural when the opponent has colossi never works, even if he has ~6 and a small gateway wall. In chokes they seem to be too good unless you can get a flank, but that's impossible given the campiness of the composition? You allin when he has 1-2 colossi.
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On December 12 2011 05:59 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 05:06 Oreo7 wrote: Hey Monk, do you open 1gate robo into 3gate obs blink now, or still 3gate into robo? Depends on scouting
Do you go 3gate when you scout early gate or only 1gas? Generally I go 1gate against anything except a 10 or 11 gate. I find I can hold the standard 4wg rush fine off 1gate if I get out 1zel 2 stalks then 1 sentry.
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I love this style of play, and have been using it pretty successfully vs Diamond and Master League players in custom 1v1s. Thanks for the very detailed guide. Would I be able to point something out though? Because of the patch not too long ago that gave immortals 6 range, there is a hard counter to this early/mid game blink style, which is a very fast second robo.
A fast second robo can punish blink tech builds pretty easily. To make it easy to think about, we are assuming neither player 4 gates, and both players end up with 1 robo and 3 gateways, and decide to go for the fastest tech from that point forward (build order battle). If player A gets a twilight council (150/100) then blink (150,150), thats 300 minerals and 250 that isn't being used on units for the period of time immediately after a 3 gate robo. Compare that to player B, who drops a fast second robo (200/100) and then makes an immortal as soon as it finishes (250/100) which totals to 450 minerals and 200 gas but leaves you with an extra immortal and increased production capacity.
Let me add in the build times too.
Twilight council takes 50 seconds to bulid, and blink takes 140 seconds to research which totals 190 seconds of build time and leaves you 300 minerals and 250 gas in the hole for 3 gates 1 robo 1 twilight and blink.
Robo takes 65 seconds to build and an immortal takes 55 seconds to produce, which totals 120 seconds of build time and leaves you 450 minerals and 250 gas in the hole for 3 gates, 2 robo,1 additional immortal, and 70 seconds to spare.
Wait, 190-120 = 70... which means there is still enough time for a second immortal from the second robo. Meaning that player B will be at LEAST 2 immortals up on his opponent by the time blink pops, if not more. The only "flaw" here is that you cannot produce probes, pylons, and an army out of 3 gate 2 robo, so its more of a 2 gate 2 robo, and is still situational (cough works best vs fast blink cough). You can get imperfect unit warp ins with primarily zealot forces however.
By the time the second immortal is out of player B's additional robo, he can start moving towards his opponents base with his forces and produce a warm prism and another immortal to back everything up. Against a primarily blink stalker force player B will always win straight up, and will always win in a base race. At this point player B can drop a twilight council then a nexus behind his pressure, and continue into 2base / late game.
I only posted this opening because it does happen to hard counter most blink stalker openings (blink stalker all in, blink stalker expand, blink stalker + obs pressure). I hope it was helpful, and I don't just end up looking like a big noob, but either way, thanks for the guide.
I can also upload some replays tomorrow.
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On December 12 2011 12:25 whitefluff wrote: Against a primarily blink stalker force player B will always win straight up, and will always win in a base race. At this point player B can drop a twilight council then a nexus behind his pressure, and continue into 2base / late game.
Why exactly will he always win a baserace vs blink stalkers?
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United States8476 Posts
On December 12 2011 12:25 whitefluff wrote: I love this style of play, and have been using it pretty successfully vs Diamond and Master League players in custom 1v1s. Thanks for the very detailed guide. Would I be able to point something out though? Because of the patch not too long ago that gave immortals 6 range, there is a hard counter to this early/mid game blink style, which is a very fast second robo.
A fast second robo can punish blink tech builds pretty easily. To make it easy to think about, we are assuming neither player 4 gates, and both players end up with 1 robo and 3 gateways, and decide to go for the fastest tech from that point forward (build order battle). If player A gets a twilight council (150/100) then blink (150,150), thats 300 minerals and 250 that isn't being used on units for the period of time immediately after a 3 gate robo. Compare that to player B, who drops a fast second robo (200/100) and then makes an immortal as soon as it finishes (250/100) which totals to 450 minerals and 200 gas but leaves you with an extra immortal and increased production capacity.
Let me add in the build times too.
Twilight council takes 50 seconds to bulid, and blink takes 140 seconds to research which totals 190 seconds of build time and leaves you 300 minerals and 250 gas in the hole for 3 gates 1 robo 1 twilight and blink.
Robo takes 65 seconds to build and an immortal takes 55 seconds to produce, which totals 120 seconds of build time and leaves you 450 minerals and 250 gas in the hole for 3 gates, 2 robo,1 additional immortal, and 70 seconds to spare.
Wait, 190-120 = 70... which means there is still enough time for a second immortal from the second robo. Meaning that player B will be at LEAST 2 immortals up on his opponent by the time blink pops, if not more. The only "flaw" here is that you cannot produce probes, pylons, and an army out of 3 gate 2 robo, so its more of a 2 gate 2 robo, and is still situational (cough works best vs fast blink cough). You can get imperfect unit warp ins with primarily zealot forces however.
By the time the second immortal is out of player B's additional robo, he can start moving towards his opponents base with his forces and produce a warm prism and another immortal to back everything up. Against a primarily blink stalker force player B will always win straight up, and will always win in a base race. At this point player B can drop a twilight council then a nexus behind his pressure, and continue into 2base / late game.
I only posted this opening because it does happen to hard counter most blink stalker openings (blink stalker all in, blink stalker expand, blink stalker + obs pressure). I hope it was helpful, and I don't just end up looking like a big noob, but either way, thanks for the guide.
I can also upload some replays tomorrow.
Very heavily theorycraft. First, you'd first have to scout the twilight council in order to even consider any sort of double robo play. Against anything else, it puts you very far behind.
Assuming the best case scenario: Your scout your opponent's robo/twilight a full minute earlier than he scouts your double robo. Then, there's a variety of tricks to still come out ahead for the robo/twilight player. First, you can just switch to heavy zealot/sentry to combat the absurdly high immortal count if your opponent tries to expand. Or you can sentry contain your opponent, as without a collosi, archon, or blink, it becomes hard to get out of your base even with a warp prism. You can also lure your opponent's units into his main with a blink and attack his natural at the same time with zealot/sentry, then forcefield the ramp and blink back out. But perhaps the biggest argument against this double robo play is that you can make enough immortals with single robo. The double robo doesn't add much and you'd be overcommiting to immortals on double robo.
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@ whitefluff, as a general rule you never want more then 1 robo per base. you dont have enough gas to support more and focussing on too many robo units leaves you vulnerable to tech switches.
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On December 12 2011 14:35 NrGmonk wrote: Very heavily theorycraft. First, you'd first have to scout the twilight council in order to even consider any sort of double robo play. Against anything else, it puts you very far behind.
Assuming the best case scenario: Your scout your opponent's robo/twilight a full minute earlier than he scouts your double robo. Then, there's a variety of tricks to still come out ahead for the robo/twilight player. First, you can just switch to heavy zealot/sentry to combat the absurdly high immortal count if your opponent tries to expand. Or you can sentry contain your opponent, as without a collosi, archon, or blink, it becomes hard to get out of your base even with a warp prism. You can also lure your opponent's units into his main with a blink and attack his natural at the same time with zealot/sentry, then forcefield the ramp and blink back out. But perhaps the biggest argument against this double robo play is that you can make enough immortals with single robo. The double robo doesn't add much and you'd be overcommiting to immortals on double robo.
I mean, it isn't theorycraft at all... I've used this many times, I just never wrote it down until now. But yes, everything you said is correct and going double robo is risky, though I think you've dismissed this without even trying it. The whole point of getting a fast second robo is to apply pressure on your opponent before expanding. And if player A switches to zealot production, so can you, because you still have 3 gates.
There is no reason to overcommit to immortal once you get to 2 bases, as this is a 1 base counter to blink builds. Once you take an expansion, you can always drop more gateways and use the second robo for utility, like for observers or warp prisms.
EDIT: I'll post some replays this afternoon or tonight, whenever I get home.
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Italy12246 Posts
Regarding the decision to go colossus vs chargelot/archon, i would do this off the top of my head (assuming 2base vs 2base):
1) If we go mirror builds, depends on the map. Easy third ----> colossus, harder third ----> chargelot/archon. 2) If he opens colossus expand, go chargelot/archon since i wont catch up to his colossus count. 3) If he opens immortal expand, depends on the map. 4) If he opens stargate, go chargelot/archon.
Does this make any sense?
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United States8476 Posts
On December 13 2011 00:46 Teoita wrote: Regarding the decision to go colossus vs chargelot/archon, i would do this off the top of my head (assuming 2base vs 2base):
1) If we go mirror builds, depends on the map. Easy third ----> colossus, harder third ----> chargelot/archon. 2) If he opens colossus expand, go chargelot/archon since i wont catch up to his colossus count. 3) If he opens immortal expand, depends on the map. 4) If he opens stargate, go chargelot/archon.
Does this make any sense? Teoita already PM'd me about this, but I'll guess I'll just copy+paste my response here.
A general rule is that a vast majority of the time it depends on the map and I usually decide on my final unit composition based on the map in the case of a relatively even game. I'm answering the following questions based on this rule and the assumption that you always want to play a macro game. 1. Yes 2. No, you should still go colossi depending on the map. You will need to use your map control/harass ability/earlier nexus to get an advantage. 3. Same as 2 4. No, voidrays + ground support do not beat colossi + ground support. A large amount of voidrays + colossi usually beats standard ground + colossi. But archons and phoenix can change that around for the colossi/ground player.
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Chargelot archon opening: I haven't dealt with this much. I'll get back to you. You can probably deal with it the same way you deal with dts though as in harrassing and engaging the army and blinking back. I'll update the guide after I have more experience with this.
Did you ever have any development on this? Lost to it and I'm not sure of the proper response still.
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