• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:33
CEST 15:33
KST 22:33
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th12Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion [BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ I made an ASL quiz
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 1
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 23738 users

[G] PVP: Robo twilight

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-09 20:56:53
July 31 2011 15:20 GMT
#1
Hello, this is NrGmonk again bringing you another guide on PvP. This time, it's an extensive guide on the relatively new robo twilight style of PvP. This is also the first guide that walks you through the entire game and addresses late game PvP. Keep in mind that this guide is a work in progress and I'll be continuously updating it.

Warning:
Lower level players beware. This is a high level build/style and will cause lots of dumb losses if you don't have the basics of the game down, such as macro, blink stalker micro, and game sense. However, for anyone who wants to play at the highest level, this is the guide for you.
Also, huge blocks of text incoming. This guide will take you about 30 minutes to finish reading.


Until about 3 or 4 months ago, PVP was riddled with 4 gates, collosi wars, and build order wins. However, recently a new style has emerged quietly. Players who may not follow starcraft or PVP as closely as I do will not have noticed the slight metagame shift, but it is definitely there. This is the style that koreans have been devloping for the past few months. This is the style that predominates the top of each and every ladder. This is the style that Huk has called "the future of PvP." And with that I present to you the robo twilight macro style.

History of the build:
+ Show Spoiler +
The first instance I ever saw a robo twilight build was when MC used one in a korean tournament that wasn't gsl back around october of 2010. Then, I saw done by Kiwikaki consistently and so I tried it out for myself. Because I didn't really understand the build, I thought it weak and abandoned it. It wasn't until gstl season 3 when i revisited this build. In the first day of oGs vs Startale, ST.Squirtle's archon zealot stalker immortal army rolled over oGs.Hero's equally supplied zealot stalker collosi army very convincingly. Then a few days later, St.Ace stomped Mouz.Hasuobs convincingly with the same army versus collosi. This got me thinking that it wasn't a fluke and that this style had lots of merit so i began experimenting a lot with it to what I have now.

Synopsis:
+ Show Spoiler +
This build is meant to be a safe macro style blink stalker opening that transitions into the late game. Your endgame army should consist of zealot/archon/stalker/immortal in different ratios depending on your opponent's unit composition. This guide will attempt to guide you through to the late game and help you with decision making. Keep in mind that this guide summaries my way of playing robo twilight and is not meant to be the definitive way to play this style.

Why this build?:
+ Show Spoiler +
The biggest advantages of this build are as follows:
  • The counters of this build aren't as hard. Whereas quick colossus vs fast phoenix can seem impossible and blink stalker can immediately lose to dts, there is no way to get an insurmountable advantage against this build.

  • Does not depend as much on gas count. This is basically addressing the fact that Collosi war mirrors depend heavily on who spent the least gas before collosi. Because of this, if you lose the early game build order war, the consequences are not as severe.

  • Very skill based strategy. Compared to a collosi build in which it's very obvious what to do at all times, this style requires lots of decision making and has a lot of divergence. Also, your success is directly related to how well you can control blink stalkers and how well you can harrass with them.

How to open:
+ Show Spoiler +
Pick your favorite opening PvP build that transitions well into a robo twilight build. My recommendations include MC's defensive 3 gate or a quick gas into 3 stalker rush build. Quick robo builds for defensive purposes aren't ideal, because they force you to get too many zealots and immortals and you don't want to be locked into immortal for the early stages of the game. However, 1 gate robo vs 2 quick gas is an ideal opening for this style. You get a quick robo while not being forced into immortals for defensive purposes. Geiko's defensive 3 gate is another good choice as long as you don't get too many stalkers early on thus delaying your robo. The timing of the robo is very important for this build, as you want scouting information as soon as possible.

Mid game build:
+ Show Spoiler +
I will not give a set in stone build as I feel that every game should be different. However, this is a general outline of a sample build. Add your robo as soon as you feel that you are safe from a 4 gate. Your infrastrcuture now should be 3 gates and a robo. Add a twilight council as soon as you feel you are safe from a blink stalker allin. If too many people request a concrete build, I'll post one.

Mid game thought process:
+ Show Spoiler +
6:00
At around this time you should have realized your opponent didn't do the fastest 4 gate against you. Feel free to walk your stalkers out of your base a little as the only thing that can catch and kill stalkers this early in the game are enemy flanking stalkers. The 2 threats you should be worrying about right now are a delayed 4 gate and some type of expand build. You should be able to hold a delayed 4 gate rather easily as long as you keep those inital poking stalkers safe. Poke a scouting probe into his base to see whether he has an expo and his unit composition. You can delay this poke if your opponent opened a 2 gas build. If he expo'd, cancel any tech and go for a 4 gate to try to end the game. The read you make with your probe here is very important and inflences your decisions trhoughout the game.

2 zealots: You can probably rule out the earliest blink stalker allins
3 or more zealots: Probably not a blink build at all. Suspect collosi or dts or collosi.
2 sentries: Your opponent is being defensive and you can probably rule out blink stalker allins
3 stalkers: Depending on his opening, this may or may not tell you anything. If he opening 3 stalker rush,
this tells you absolutely nothing
4 stalkers: Robo blink or blink build with 75% certainty.
5 or more stalkers: robo blink or blink build with 99% certainty
more than 250 worth of gas: rule out any type of super fast dts

6:40
The only 2 viable threats at this stage of the game are an extremely delayed 4 gate or a blink stalker allin. The absolute fastest realistic blink stalker allin comes at 6:40 with 8 stalkers max. Suspect this if your opponent got an earlish gas. Most blink stalker allins come at 7:10 with 11 stalkers max. Based on his gas timing, your read with your probe, your observer, and any other scouting you may have, determine if this is a blink stalker build, allin or not. Refer to the blink stalker allin section for a continued explanation of how to deal with this. The rest of your section assumes you've ruled out blink stalker allin.

When your observer comes out, escort your observer across the map with some stalkers as far as you judge to be safe. This is a little vague so let me explain. By escorting your observer, you both protect your own observer from being sniped and catch any enemy observers. The 2 downsides to this are that you might get caught by delayed blink stalkers or your enemy can see your stalker count and make a read that you're going blink. That is why you don't want to be too aggressive with your stalkers and why you might not want to bring all of them. However, if you've made a read that he isn't going blink stalker, say you see tons of zealots, feel free to escort the observer all the way to his base. Do not lose this observer, even if you have to take a roundabout path as this build heavily relies on the read you make with your observer.The rest of the guide assumes you've compeletely scouted your opponent and know exactly what build he went.

After you've scouted his build:
+ Show Spoiler +
Blink stalker allin:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, so you've made a read that it's a blink stalker build, but you're not sure if it's allin or not. You may or may not have to skip your observer to survive this depending on your opening. If you do not have an immortal out by the time the quickest versions of this build hit(around 7:00), you're dead. If you do not have 2 immortals by the time later versions of this build hit(around 7:40), you're dead. You also must have a comprable army to your opponent, so keep your macro up on 3 gates and 1 robo. Position your units so that he cannot easily pick off your units and keep any zealots you may have in the back of your army.

Delay your twilight council until you are sure you are safe. If your opponent doesn't have a robo or a forge, then you can go dts. If not, research blink. If your opponent has expanded, allin him and you will surely win with better econ/tech. If he hasn't, you can contain him and expand behind that. However, keep in mind that you should be miles ahead and he shouldn't be able to break your contain. From here on out refer to the blink stalker expo section of the guide if it somehow gets to late game.

Blink stalker expo:
+ Show Spoiler +
The general consensus is that a robo twilight build is the best response to a blink build. Generally, I agree with this statement, but I don't think it's always necessarily true. For example, if the blinking player puts down a very early nexus on a big map, say before your twilight council even starts, he can get an econ advantage before your blink finishes. If the robo twilight player tries to allin, the blink player can proceed to delay the robo twilight player's army with a superior stalker count and then fight head on with his econ advantage. An example of this is in Huk vs MC in the replay section of this guide. Huk accidentally let MC see his 1 gate robo build and thus MC was able to throw down a nexus with 3 units on the field.

However, generally the robo twilight player does have a significant advantage over the blink stalker player. Once you are safe and know your opponent isn't going to be able to kill you by blinking up the ramp, you should assess the situation. The key buildings you are looking for are a robo and a nexus from your opponent. If your opponent has no robo or forge and tries to expand, you can try for dark templars while pressuring your opponent.

If your opponent has expanded way before yourself, you must attack your opponent or his econ lead will become too large. Add a 4th gateway and bring a probe with your push. Make sure your army moves as a whole with immortals leading the charge. You do not want your opponent to pick off any stray stalkers of your own with his stalkers. Try to time your push so you hit right after his nexus finishes.

If your opponent has a similar but still faster expo timing than yourself, make a judgement call on whether to allin him or try to play the macro game. Factors on whether to allin include the distance to his natural and whether either of you lost any units in the early game.

If your opponent has not expanded so far, pressure him and expand yourself while not making probes yourself. You should be able to defend any allins and use your econ lead to win the game. Refer to the robo twilight mirror section if your opponent goes for robo/twilight unit composition.

If your opponent transitions to chargelots, expand, don't make additional probes, and keep your stalker count about 2 above his. This allows you to keep map control and harass him and pick off units until charge finishes. Meanwhile, keep your zealot count up so that it's similar to your opponent's but do not research charge. The reasoning is that if charge isn't worth it if your opponent has charge and you have equal numbers, because the zealots will be slamming into each other anyways. If your opponent adds a templar archives, add one for yourself and mirror him with a better econ.

Robo twilight mirror:
+ Show Spoiler +
A complete mirror can get kind of tricky as very small things can affect the outcome of the game. In a mirror where both players go some variation of robo twilight, you can actually expand despite it being a mirror. You have a few advantages as the expander/defender. First is that he has to walk all the way across the map where he can be vulnerable. Second is that although his gateway units reinforce instantly, his immortals cannot. Next, your opponent will only attack you after he warps in a wave of units from a proxy pylon. This gives you an extra 5-10 seconds to warp in your own units. Finally, as the defender, you can get into a better position than your opponent and can cut him off with forcefields if he tries to attack into you. With all these defender's advantages, you should be able to overcome the deficit that is paying 300 extra minerals for a big overpriced pylon.

The first only works if your opponent either overmade zealots in the early game or lost a few units in the early game. Also, the map must be large. Throw down your nexus after you confirm the builds and from then on make nothing but stalkers. Do not add addition probes until you see your opponent expand as well and add a 4th gateway. If your opponent tries to allin you, slow him down by engaging with your blink stalkers and blinking back when his non-blink stalker units catch up. Repeat this until he gets to your base at which time you should have warped in zealots and at least one immortal. This works because if you have a higher blink stalker count by at least 2, you can force engagments in which the rest of his army cannot fight in. By doing this you can at the very least slow him down and at the very most pick off some units along the way. By the time your opponent gets to your base, your econ will have kicked in to directly engage his army. focus fire his immortals with your stalkers and once those are gone reinforce with stalkers.

The other method works on almost any map that doesn't have an insanely wide choke into your natural, but works especially well on maps with small chokes. Build 3 sentries and fill in the rest with zealot/immortal/stalker. When your opponent attacks, cut his units in half and procede to kill half his army at a time. Again, do not add addition probes until you see your opponent expand as well and add a 4th gateway.

The rest of this section assumes that both you and your opponent have expanded and you're now 2 base vs 2 base. As soon as you see your opponent has his expansion, throw up a forge and mass chornoboost probes. The next part is what I like to call stalker wars, similar to viking wars in tvt. You want to idealy make just enough stalkers so that you have about 2-3 more than your opponent. Doing so will ensure map control, make it easier for you to scout your opponent, and make it feel much safer to do whatever you want at home. Although stalkers are weaker in a final fight, have just 2 more stalkers than your opponent and 2 less zealots won't make too much of a difference. However, be aware that having 10 more than your opponent could cause you to lose the straight up fight.

Focus on upgrading attack from your one forge. Attack upgrades give much more bonus than either armor or shields, boosting units like archons and immortals greatly. Two forges can leave you open to timing attacks and weaken your overall army.

Scout your opponent diligently. Your opponent can still do many versions of 2 base timings. Things you want to look out for include: His probe prodcution, his unit composition and army count, his forge count, whether he has/is upgrading charge, whether he has a dt shrine or templar archives, his gateway count. Respond accordingly to this scouting information.

As soon as you feel safe to do so (this is pretty subjective), switch to a zealot/archon/immortal army. Personally, I never make a zealot until I see my opponent has zealots.

Do not rush charge. In smaller numbers of zealots vs charging zealots, all you have to do is match his zealot count and be reasonably safe.

Do not rush your 3rd and 4th gas. While getting earlier gas might mean 1 extra archon in your army, getting more minerals allows you to be more safe from timings. In addition, you will have extra minerals for an earlier 3rd nexus. If you don't rush your 3rd and 4th gas, you can also delay your templar archives for archons.

Try to time your gateways along with your opponent's. That is, try to add them after your opponent does, but don't delay them too much. With good macro, you can support 6 gateways, a robo, and a forge on 2 base while trying to take a 3rd.

Don't go over 55 probes on 2 base. Your main should mine out rather fast. Anything over 55 probes is a waste, because you'd rather secure your 3rd safely and earlier rather than get it later and instantly saturate it.

Your army should consist of mostly zealot/archon with stalkers left over from the early game and a few immortals sprinkled in. Add more immortals for maps with more chokes and if your opponent has lots of stalkers. However, you should never go over 6 immortals in a 200 supply army. The immortals are just for cleaning up stalkers after the zealot/archon have killed each other and for some ranged damage. In a fight, reinforce with all zealots, as they charge directly into the battle, have a low cd on warpgates, do the most damage out of any unit you can warp, and protect your stalkers/immortals from theirs.

Watch out for dts by having an obs or 2 in your army and making a cannon at all your bases.

A collosi switch from your opponent is suicide as he'll get them too late and in too few number. If you see collosi, add more blink stalkers into your army and snipe them. Also, if you scout he has switched collosi, take a very greedy third as his investment into collosi(robo bay + range) won't have paid off until he has at least 3.

Collosi opening:
+ Show Spoiler +
As soon as you make a read that your opponent is going collosi, throw down your nexus at your natural. You can make this read by either seeing a collosi, seeing a robo bay, or seeing an observer plus a medium number of zealots. Also, start chornoing probes and rallying to your expansion while continuing to produce stalkers off of 3 gates. As your expansion is about to go up, add one gateway, bringing you up to 4. About 2 minutes after your expansion goes up, add 2 more gates, bringing the total to 6. Poke at your opponent to see if you can pick anything off, but don't risk any stalkers. Stay close to your opponent's main atl all times. This does one of two things: Your opponent will feel pressured and delay his expo or you will be in position to base trade if your opponent decides to allin your base. Now at this point, your opponent will either try to one base allin you or attempt to put up an expansion.

Collosi one base allin:
+ Show Spoiler +
Now's the time to base trade. As soon as your opponent leaves blink into his base and
focus his probes as they're trying to escape. Your main goal will be trying to prevent
as many probes as you can from escaping. Also, make a second observer for scouting
after the dust settles in the base trade. Right before your opponent reaches you base,
pull all the probes from your natural and move them to somewhere safe, splitting them up. If your opponent pulled all his probes for the allin, pull all of yours as well. Now, because you're running on 2 bases with aroudn 35-40 probes and still 2 gas, you
should have an excess of minerals make at least 2 nexuses across the map from each other. Your opponent won't be able to leave his last pylon/nexus he probably build at your old base. You should be able to win from here as you have a better econ and map control.

Alternatively, if your opponent allins you very late, you can actually engage him directly
with zealot stalker. Huk actually engaged a much bigger army once with zealot stalker archon and came out ahead.

Collosi into macro game:
+ Show Spoiler +
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. The reason you can directly get to this composition is that it has a high fixed cost but low variable cost. Twilight council/blink/charge/templar archives is way more expensive than robo bay/range upgrade, but you can get 22 food of chargelot/archon(7 zealot/2 archon) for the same price you get 18 food of collosi. Thus, you use blink stalker both in order to get an econ advantage and to delay your opponent enough to get over that inital fixed cost hump. Many of you will not believe this, but try it out in a unit tester and see for yourself.

When your opponent puts his nexus down, do not trust that he's trying to play a macro game. For all you know, he could be putting down the nexus and then cancel and allin you. Or alternatively not cancel and still allin you. Whatever the case, keep producing nothing but blink stalker until the nexus finishes and you see him producing probes.

From when your opponent first puts down his nexus to when he finally gets blink stalkers
for himself or when he has just too many immortal/ranged collosi, harrass him with blink stalkers. Try to pick off fringe pylons in his base or even a tech building if he built it too close to the edge of his main. Split your stalkers up and use them like medivac drops, pulling your opponent's army to his main and then attack his natural probes with another set of blink stalkers.

As you see your opponent's nexus go down, throw down your 3rd and 4th gas, but don't add anymore infrastrucutre. When you see your opponent's nexus finish and see him producing probes, you can be resonablely sure that he's not going to allin you. It wouldn't make sense for him anyways and you've had a much better econ for so long. In fact, it's quite normal to be 10 probes up versus your opponent, if not more. At this point, add a forge, a templar archives, start charge, and begin pure zealot/archon/immortal production. Your army should be the 15-20 stalkers you have from early game and the rest all zealot/archon/immortal. Do not overmake immortals, especially if your opponent isn't going many blink stalkers to counter your blink stalkers. The upside of getting blink stalkers from your opponent's perspective is that he gest to deny blink stalker harrass better. The downside is that his overall army will be weaker.

Don't go over 55 probes on 2 base. Your main should mine out rather fast. Anything over 55 probes is a waste, because you'd rather secure your 3rd safely and earlier rather than get it later and instantly saturate it.

The key concept to the end game of this style is that your army is better until your opponent maxes out or he gets really good upgrades. Thus, you want to force engagements in the mid game by aggressively expanding or attacking when you're close to maxed. With that in mind, take your 3rd around when you have 10 or so zealots and 1 or 2 archons. This may sound like suicide, but as you get more experienced with the style, you'll being to learn how strong the unit composition is versus collosi based armies.

If your opponent tries to match your 3rd base timing, attack him with everything you have and you should easily win the game. Try to line this attack up with an upgrade or his third finishing. If your opponent delays his third so that he has a fairly high collosi count, add gateways, wait for yourself to be close to max and win with an attack.

The most important aspect of a chargelot/archon composition vs a collosi composition is positioning. A wide area will allow all your zealots and archons to attack while they spread out to avoid collosi splash damage. It also allows your blink stalkers to blink into his army and target collosi/diversify collosi splash damage. A narrow choke means exactly the opposite and can be horrible for this composition. This is why it should be your goal to force fights in wide areas.

During the fight, you battle micro should be as follows. A move your non stalker units and blink your stalkers to the side of your opponent's collosi, shift clicking and targeting them. Then, warp in reinforcements and chronoboost gateways. Alternate focusing attention between your stalkers and warping in more reinforcements.

As for reinforcements, warp in zealots if your opponent has anymore zealots, archons, or immortals left in his composition. Zealots get to the battle the fastest and are the best overall for dealing/taking damage. However, if your opponent has only stalker/collosi, then reinforce with only stalkers. If your opponent has only stalker/collosi, then you should have already had the battle won, because immortals can take on almost any ammount of stalker/collosi. You should instead be focused on chasing the enemy collosi down, which stalkers do a better job with than zealots. Never warp in templar, as archons take too long to morph and won't contribute much to the fight at all.

As for upgrades, attack upgrades are almost as effective for the robo/twilight player as the collosi player, as archons and immortals get huge bonuses. However, armor and shield upgrades are significiantly more effective for the collosi player, as a large portion of the robo/twight player's dps comes from zealots.

So in summary: Use the mobility of blink stalkers to get an earlier expansion than your opponent. Base trade if he tries to allin you. Use your econ lead to transition to a composition that can beat a collosi based army at foods below 200. Take an early 3rd, which will force your opponent to either allin you before he can fight you or take a 3rd which he cannot defend. If he delays his third, wait for your third to kick in for a while, add gateways, and attack him when you're close to maxed.

Phoenix opening:
+ Show Spoiler +
You should have enough stalkers to deny all harrass with this build. You should also have an obs in his base to scout what he does.

If your opponent does not have a robo or forge building and tries to expand you can go for a hidden dark shrine for an instant win.

If your opponent did not expand and got a robo, you can expand for yourself. Add a 4th gate but do not make any probes. Mass nothing but blink stalker and fill in the rest of your minerals with zealots. If he tries to allin, focus fire the phenoix and then you'll be left with all blink stalkers versus regular gateway units. Even if you're outnumbered slightly, you should be able to win.

I actually don't have any experience versus phoenix + robo expand with this build, but here's what I theorize you should do. Collosi is quite a long way from him, so I would go for a zealot/archon composition with one forge and your initial supporting stalkers. Then, take an greedy 3rd because his collosi will be slow and few. Again, focus the phoenix with your stalkers. I'm not entirely sure whether to get immortals with this composition though.

Dark templar opening:
+ Show Spoiler +
Before you even scout dts, you should be aware of the possibility of dts, how likely they are, and when they should come if they do come. Normally, the dt shrine finishes at at 7:10 with normal first gas timing and second gas coming right after the cyber core. Also, 1 gas mines at about 110 gas per minute. Thus, for every minute he delays his gas, he loses 110 gas. With this information and scouting your opponent's units with either a probe or your own poking units, you can deduce when the earliest dts might possibly come.

Once you see the dt shrine and confirm dts, chorno out a second observer, block your ramp with a few units, and forcefield your ramp if a dt comes before your observer finishes. Leave enough units at your base to deal with 2 dts and add a 4th gate. while your second obs is at your main base, your first should be over your opponent's army. Now, you have a choice to make. you can either kill him now or take an expansion. In most cases, you can directly kill him. From now on, make nothing but stalkers. Your opponent's will most likely transition will probably be charge. If you can catch him without charge, you will kill his entire army with blink micro before charge can finish. If you can't catch him before charge finishes, you can probably still kill him.

If you go for the expansion route, consisently harrass him with your blink stalkers and if he tries to allin you, harrass him with blink and it will be very hard to put up a close proxy pylon. You will probably whittle his army down before he gets to your base anyways. Whatever option you choose, as long as you didn't lose probes to his dts,it will be a very difficult game for you to lose.

Alternatively, if your opponent doesn't have a forge or a robo, build a dark shrine for
yourself and go for the free win.

Chargelot archon opening:
+ Show Spoiler +
I haven't dealt with this much. I'll get back to you. You can probably deal with it the same way you deal with dts though as in harrassing and engaging the army and blinking back. I'll update the guide after I have more experience with this.

Immortal expand:
+ Show Spoiler +
Immortal expand is generally not very safe vs any build except this one. However,
that still doesn't mean you can't win with this build. You will not be able to reliably win with an allin, because you invested in more tech than he did. However, you're only really far behind if your opponent got his expansion much earlier than you did, more than a minute or so. Procede to harrass him as much as possible with your blink stalkers until he gets blink stalkers of his own. Then, follow either the collosi portion of this guide or the robo twilight mirror portion depending on his followup.

1, 2 or 3 gate expand:
+ Show Spoiler +
You should be able to scout this build before commiting to your robo twilight build.
Cancel the robo, throw down a 4th gate and procede to stalker/sentry 4 gate your opponent.

Good maps for this style:
+ Show Spoiler +
Characteristics of a good map for this style:
  • Big- You want the potential to base trade
  • Not narrow-The final unit composition thrives without chokes
  • Hard to defend natural-This build has a hard time punishing greedy expansions
The Good:
Terminus SE
Cross position metalopolis
MLG Shattered temple
Xelnaga caverns
Xelnaga fortress
Testbug
Dual sight
Typhon peaks

The not so good:
Close air metalopolis-hard base trade if you take your natural
Shakruas plateau-too easy to hold your natural with both collosi and forcefields
Backwater gulch-the map is a bit too small for my taste to do this with unless it's cross positions

The ugly:
Close position on any maps- you can't base trade well enough
Crossfire- chokes are too narrow for this army composition
Talderim altar-I've never seen a PvP get to this stage on this map

Other comments:
+ Show Spoiler +
This general style can also be obtained via a blink stalker expand, immortal expand, or dark templar openings. All the nonspecific late game tips still apply.

Example replays and vods:
+ Show Spoiler +
This part is a WIP. Need to rewatch all these games and find the links plus upload my own replays.
Personal replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Robo twilight mirror with different styles mid game on Xelnaga caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10915
In this replay, I start off behind by losing a few stalkers, but I can still come back by following my guide. It demonstrates a more blink stalker heavy style versus an earlier zealot/archon style. Because I get map control with blink stalkers, I feel more safe and I can eventually win with better upgrades and more econ. Note other differences such as forge timing/gas timing/gateway timing.

Robo twilight mirror into macro game on Antiga shipyards
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10916
My opponent actually opens twilight into robo into expand. This is actually a less safe build but has an advantage over robo twilight on this map. Anyways, it's a good replay to showcase how I think the matchup should be played.

Blink vs Robo twilight on Terminus SE
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/10917
I open blink into the zealot/archon/stalker/immortal composition. The general concepts I outline about the late game still apply here.

Robo twilight vs Collosi allin on Xelnaga caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/11107
This game demonstrates a very typical game versus a collosi allin. The 2 main things I could have done better are getting a few more collosi out before my base died and getting a 2nd observer out.

More personal replays incoming. Specifically need games versus collosi macro, phoenix, and chargelot/archon.

Pro replays/vods:
+ Show Spoiler +
Squirtle vs Hero GSTL game 1 on Xelnaga caverns
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstl3/vod/65330
This game actually starts with a proxy gate and then transitions into standard play. Although it's not the best example of a robo blink build, this game is significant, because this is the first instance zealot/stalker/archon/immortal is used in a televised game.

Ace vs Hasuobs NASL game 2 on Xelnaga caverns
http://nasl.tv/Videos/ace-vs-hasuobs-week-seven-division-four
This is the original game I based my build/style off of. Although Ace makes many mistakes, his harrass is quite good.

Ace vs Hasuobs NASL game 3 on Shattered temple
http://nasl.tv/Videos/ace-vs-hasuobs-week-seven-division-four
Ace goes blink into expansion into robo and ends up with the robo/twilight composition vs collosi again. This game again demonstrates good harass.

MC vs Inca GSL set 3 on Xelnaga caverns
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65709
Both players go Robo twilight, but curiously Inca goes for charge and zealots while
MC goes blink and stalkers. MC catches Inca in the middle of the map with blink but
versus no charge. With proper micro, he crushes Inca's army and Inca has to gg.

Huk vs MC GSL game 1 on Xelnaga fortress
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65750
HUk does this build vs MC's blink expand. However, he keeps his own blink stalkers too much in front and engages MC's stalkers without his immortals, losing many stalkers because Huk has fewer. At MC's expansion, he gets an immortal picked off for free and loses to MC's higher stalker count.

Puzzle vs Tassadar GSL game 5 on Terminus SE
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65763
Puzzle goes for this style versus collosi but turns it into an allin. This game shows the importance of checking probe count/production from both sides of the matchup.

Tassadar vs Squirtle GSTL set 2 on Xelnaga Fortress
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstls1/vod/65787
Tassadar tries to go for a robo twilight style but plays too greedy and loses to a 11 stalker blink allin at 7:29. Tassadar needed to not make his own twilight council and macro more units from his gateways.

Choya vs Tyler MLG game 1 on MLG Metalopolis
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/72842-pool-play-tyler-vs-choya-g1
Choya does this build perfectly until after the first fight when he has a lead. If you want to see a pro execute this build perfectly for the first 10 minutes, check this out. He seemed completely confused by Tyler's chargelot transition and fumbled from there. He made an expo, then canceled it, made a robo bay, then canceled it, and then settled for a dark shrine. I think the smartest decision from that point in choya's build is to expand and match tyler's zealot count without getting charge. Also, harass tyler with your high blink stalker count. Then, you can add a templar archives when you see him add his. Alternatively, it might be viable to keep adding on blink stalkers and try to kill tyler off directly. Choya opted for the middle road, adding more stalkers but not harrassing with them. Also, late game choya tries to transition from zealot archon into collosi, something I specifically warn against doing in the guide.

Huk vs Mana Assembly Summer game 2 on Shakruas Plateau
Replay not yet released
Both players go robo twilight. This is a good demonstration of a typical mirror mid game and shows that the stalker is the dominant mid game unit.

TSL.JYP vs AnyproPrime GSL Aug game 2 on Daybreak
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/65876
Demonstrates how to play robo blink vs dt opening. JYP makes a read with his scouting probe, seeing a cannon and leaves his first observer at home while chornoing a 2nd observer.

LiquidHero vs AliveFan Bnet game on Shakruas Plateau
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)AliveFan_vs_(P)oGsHerO_shakuras_plateau_sc2rep_com_20110810/12312
Blink opening versus robo into immortal expand opening. Then both players transition into the same unit composition. I believe this is the first pro replay demonstrating the robo/twilight mirror late game. This replay also demonstrates good harrass and the effects of supply blocking your opponent and unpowering gateways in the late game if he has only produced the bare minimum number of gateways.

Huk vs Kiwikaki Blizzcon NA qualifiers game 1 on Shattered Temple
http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/tournaments/us-regionals/matches/sc2/video-archive
Huk goes for a greedy robo blink build, which catches kiwikaki off guard. Kiwikaki goes a more safe robo/twilight build, which is what this guide advocates. Normally, as kiwikaki when you see an observer so quickly, you don't expect blink for a long time. However, Huk makes a bet that kiwikaki won't blink allin him and this gambit pays off.

Huk vs Kiwikaki Blizzcon NA qualifiers game 1 on Xelnaga Caverns
http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/tournaments/us-regionals/matches/sc2/video-archive
Mirror builds as game 1 except kiwikaki defends and comes out ahead after the inital fight. Kiwikaki stays on 1 base and allins huk when huk tries to expand. Because kiwikaki was ahead after the initial engagement, huk is down about 800 resources when the allin happens.


FAQs:
+ Show Spoiler +
Does this build work on talderim altar?
No, and it's more of a style than a build.

How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build?
Are you fucking retarded?

I tried this build and it failed. What did I do wrong?
Post the replay and I'll tell you.

Moderator
ForTheDr3am
Profile Joined November 2010
842 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-31 16:00:19
July 31 2011 15:58 GMT
#2
Great guide, I have never seen such detailed information about PvP past 6 minutes yet.

I think Chargelot/Archon is potentially very dangerous if the opponent hits a timing where he has Archons while you don't have them with high Zealot counts on both sides, because the result will be that his Chargelots eat through whatever you have after your Zealots died. I agree with your thoughts on the choya/Tyler game, you absolutely need Archons as soon as the opponent has his. I don't think that killing him off with Stalkers works, but I might be wrong. You are definitely right about harassing with the Stalkers though, because they are quite bad in a straight up fight and you need to squeeze out their worth.
Choya had a cute idea with the DT shrine, but he needed to get it faster and get the DTs into the main with either Observer + Pylon warpin or a warpprism. I haven't seen anyone put a second cannon into his mineralline yet (and you can scout whether he does), and at worst you still have access to overpriced Archons and prevent the opponent from moving out before Observer. DTs are also a great way to profit from your investment into Blink, because once the opponent has Observers you can snipe them fairly easily.
GomJabbar
Profile Joined February 2011
United States161 Posts
July 31 2011 16:36 GMT
#3
Wow, fantastic thread! This is how I've been playing PvP lately and it's so refreshing and fun (and safe!). You seem to favor blink more than I do, though; against a robo/colossus opening I tend to go 1-base charge rather than doing the blink base-trade (I hate base trading), but that seems stylistic. Going fast chargelot+archon+immortal against a 1-base colossus push crushes it, so I'm sure either style can work. The blink response does seem to guarantee a faster expo, though, so maybe I should start trying it.

I will say that the most dangerous opening I've seen against this is a fast chargelot+archon opening by the opponent. The only way I've been able to deal with it is with DTs as quickly as I can. I'm also starting to think about how it might work rushing to archons without getting charge, since stalker+archon ought to theoretically beat small numbers of chargelots+archon, in a small choke (your ramp), but that's really just theorycrafting.
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
July 31 2011 17:46 GMT
#4
Excellent.

I've been doing this for months but because 99% of the pvp games don't go past 1 base I still didn't have solid mid-and lategame timings, so tyvm


Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
-XSV-
Profile Joined July 2011
United States23 Posts
July 31 2011 19:03 GMT
#5
Bookmarked, this is an awesome guide! I've been struggling with the transition out of the initial 4 gate hold off and I never really knew how to react. I can't wait to start trying this style out soon and see your personal replays. Thanks!
Fierco
Profile Joined February 2011
United States31 Posts
July 31 2011 19:04 GMT
#6
Time to grab a practice partner and hammer out some PvP games. This is really helpful! Thanks!
b_unnies
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
3579 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-01 07:25:38
August 01 2011 07:25 GMT
#7
Great guide. Robo + immortals is very popular among koreans nowadays, and I never really understood how this style works.
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-01 08:20:40
August 01 2011 08:18 GMT
#8
How does this build do vs Adelscott's no gas 2 gate build?
Are you fucking retarded?


I lol-ed

Very nice overall "mirror"-guide to Cecil's blink first Now for the constructive criticism:

Since I am (and - if we don't count 4 gate on maps where you can only 4 gate - have always been) a blink first player, I have to disagree with your advice on how to handle a blink expo into chargelot/archon style. You said that we should keep your stalker count above his and if he adds archons we should do the same. In fact I disagree with both statements, here is why:
1.) keep stalker-count above his: a GOOD blink-first-player should and never will let this happen. Frankly, if he does, he deserves to lose 100% because he has screwed up. If you invest in robo first and THEN TC you will have at least 2 immortals, which can be 4 stalkers for me before I build a robo for obs myself. I won't get any immortals, therefore I have the superior stalker-count. By quickly blinking back and not funnelling my army, there should be no way that you can pick off my stalkers one by one. You said that you should be able to harass your opponent, but normally it's the other way around: the blink player has the more mobile force and should harass the immortal player. If I start with blink and end up getting blink-harassed, then - again - I've screwed up. You should never be able to safely leave your base at all.
2.) mirror his archon-techswitch: if you open robo, I strongly disagree that you have to go for archons yourself. I completly agree that you shouldn't tech charge but instead simply keep your zealot count up. By that you render his charge-tech useless. But this aside you could and should go for the very standard constantly-chrono-boosted mass-colossi production. Once colossi reach a certain count (about 4-6 depending on position and rest of the army) your opponent's zealots melt SO quickly that archons are really a non-issue. Zealot/archon really only works in medium-sized battles. In fact, what I'd suggest when you scout the expo is expand yourself and tech to colossi hard. Your opponent wants to pin you on one base and force you to do an all-in which will fail because then it's exactly when chargelot/archon is at its strongest. If you accept that you are economicly behind but just don't care and use your TECH advantage you will get further and further ahead the longer the game progresses.

Notice that this holds ONLY true vs blink first and NOT for the robo/TC mirror where I agree with you that the first one to switch to colossi can be overrun. But if you face a blink first, he can NOT overrun you because he lacks the "beefy" units - blink first will always be behind in straight up battles in early/mid-game, which is where you can play it greedy with expanding and teching straight to colossi. Of course only when he expands, but I think that's obvious.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
August 01 2011 08:29 GMT
#9
extremely anoying build for wide main map such as shakuras or typhon...
a good follow up would be proxy DT and snipe obs+robo or even going prism.

confirmed work well on high master and above as soon as your 3 stalker rush is correctly executed.
Weakness: defensive DT expand.
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-01 09:09:21
August 01 2011 09:05 GMT
#10
On August 01 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote:
1.) keep stalker-count above his: a GOOD blink-first-player should and never will let this happen. Frankly, if he does, he deserves to lose 100% because he has screwed up. If you invest in robo first and THEN TC you will have at least 2 immortals, which can be 4 stalkers for me before I build a robo for obs myself. I won't get any immortals, therefore I have the superior stalker-count. By quickly blinking back and not funnelling my army, there should be no way that you can pick off my stalkers one by one. You said that you should be able to harass your opponent, but normally it's the other way around: the blink player has the more mobile force and should harass the immortal player. If I start with blink and end up getting blink-harassed, then - again - I've screwed up. You should never be able to safely leave your base at all.
2.) mirror his archon-techswitch: if you open robo, I strongly disagree that you have to go for archons yourself. I completly agree that you shouldn't tech charge but instead simply keep your zealot count up. By that you render his charge-tech useless. But this aside you could and should go for the very standard constantly-chrono-boosted mass-colossi production. Once colossi reach a certain count (about 4-6 depending on position and rest of the army) your opponent's zealots melt SO quickly that archons are really a non-issue. Zealot/archon really only works in medium-sized battles. In fact, what I'd suggest when you scout the expo is expand yourself and tech to colossi hard. Your opponent wants to pin you on one base and force you to do an all-in which will fail because then it's exactly when chargelot/archon is at its strongest. If you accept that you are economicly behind but just don't care and use your TECH advantage you will get further and further ahead the longer the game progresses.


mlg spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +
Let me clear something up. The section you're referring to is a direct response to the choya vs tyler game. It specifically refers to an opponent who's on 1 base and who has abandoned blink stalker very early in favor of chargelots. See the game I'm referring to for more clarity. In this particular situation, I stand by the fact that going collosi off either 1 or 2 base is not the answer.

In a 2 base situation, your suggestion becomes more viable. However, I still think that zealot/archon/stalker/immortal is the way to go after an expansion. This is because if you go for collosi, you're basically just doing a late collosi build and might as well open collosi yourself instead of opening robo blink to counter blink.You also seem to underestimate the power of zealot/archon/stalker/immortal composition, as I have stated in the guide that this composition can directly take on a collosi army as long as the supplies aren't close to 200. Yes, it can even beat an army with 6 collosi. Maybe you're not using immortals when you're trying out the build?

Also, I disagree you always have a tech advantage when you're facing vs blink expand. Half the time, they add a robo right after the expansion and have robo tech as well.
Moderator
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 01 2011 09:07 GMT
#11
On August 01 2011 17:29 NB wrote:
extremely anoying build for wide main map such as shakuras or typhon...
a good follow up would be proxy DT and snipe obs+robo or even going prism.

confirmed work well on high master and above as soon as your 3 stalker rush is correctly executed.
Weakness: defensive DT expand.


The followups you suggested are ok but gimmicky. I'm aiming for more of a solid style. Dt expand is not a weakness. I actually had trouble dealing with it early on, but with some good reads, practice, and knowing what you do, you can beat it quite easily.
Moderator
FenneK
Profile Joined November 2010
France1231 Posts
August 01 2011 09:17 GMT
#12
best guide i've seen in a while, thanks, this looks real interesting
good luck have batman
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-01 09:46:17
August 01 2011 09:32 GMT
#13
Quoted this "out" of the spoiler, since it doesn't really refer to the game in question

In a 2 base situation, your suggestion becomes more viable. However, I still think that zealot/archon/stalker/immortal is the way to go after an expansion. This is because if you go for collosi, you're basically just doing a late collosi build and might as well open collosi yourself instead of opening robo blink to counter blink.You also seem to underestimate the power of zealot/archon/stalker/immortal composition, as I have stated in the guide that this composition can directly take on a collosi army as long as the supplies aren't close to 200. Yes, it can even beat an army with 6 collosi. Maybe you're not using immortals when you're trying out the build?

Also, I disagree you always have a tech advantage when you're facing vs blink expand. Half the time, they add a robo right after the expansion and have robo tech as well.


First of all, yes, I was referring to a situation where the blink player adds an expansion "reasonably" quickly. Meaning, not quickly enough to force you into an all-in and not so late that it's basicly a delayed one base vs one base situation. Second, I don't disagree that zealot/archon/stalker/immortal is strong - it is.

Yes, it can even beat an army with 6 collosi. Maybe you're not using immortals when you're trying out the build?


I think you are looking at it from the wrong side. Your opponent won't go for colossi, by assumption (!). Your opponent has opened blink into later robotics into expo and you have scouted that he is going chargelot/archon.
Then - and only then - is where I think a switch to colossi is strong. If your opponent has opened blink into expand and harasses you with blink/obs from a delayed robo. Then you can just let him harass you and macro up a huge colossus force. Since your opponent won't have immortals (he opened blink and went straight into zealot/archon), blink is the only threat for your colossi. And once they reach a critical size, blink stalkers aren't a match any more.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 01 2011 09:41 GMT
#14
On August 01 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
I think you are looking at it from the wrong side. Your opponent won't go for colossi, by assumption (!). Your opponent has opened blink into later robotics into expo and you have scouted that he is going chargelot/archon.
Then - and only then - is where I think a switch to colossi is strong. If your opponent has opened blink into expand and harasses you with blink/obs from a delayed robo. Then you can just let him harass you and macro up a huge colossus force. Since your opponent won't have immortals (he opened blink and went straight into zealot/archon), blink is the only threat for your colossi. And once they reach a critical size, blink stalkers aren't a match any more.


My point is that I don't see why your opponent can't add in immortals in his mix and basically turn the tables around where he goes zealot/archon/stalker/immortal versus your collosi. Also, your collosi will be late and small in number, so you won't be able to effectively contest any greedy expansions from your opponent while you're building up your collosi count.
Moderator
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
August 01 2011 09:48 GMT
#15
On August 01 2011 18:05 4kmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2011 17:18 sleepingdog wrote:
1.) keep stalker-count above his: a GOOD blink-first-player should and never will let this happen. Frankly, if he does, he deserves to lose 100% because he has screwed up. If you invest in robo first and THEN TC you will have at least 2 immortals, which can be 4 stalkers for me before I build a robo for obs myself. I won't get any immortals, therefore I have the superior stalker-count. By quickly blinking back and not funnelling my army, there should be no way that you can pick off my stalkers one by one. You said that you should be able to harass your opponent, but normally it's the other way around: the blink player has the more mobile force and should harass the immortal player. If I start with blink and end up getting blink-harassed, then - again - I've screwed up. You should never be able to safely leave your base at all.
2.) mirror his archon-techswitch: if you open robo, I strongly disagree that you have to go for archons yourself. I completly agree that you shouldn't tech charge but instead simply keep your zealot count up. By that you render his charge-tech useless. But this aside you could and should go for the very standard constantly-chrono-boosted mass-colossi production. Once colossi reach a certain count (about 4-6 depending on position and rest of the army) your opponent's zealots melt SO quickly that archons are really a non-issue. Zealot/archon really only works in medium-sized battles. In fact, what I'd suggest when you scout the expo is expand yourself and tech to colossi hard. Your opponent wants to pin you on one base and force you to do an all-in which will fail because then it's exactly when chargelot/archon is at its strongest. If you accept that you are economicly behind but just don't care and use your TECH advantage you will get further and further ahead the longer the game progresses.


mlg spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +
Let me clear something up. The section you're referring to is a direct response to the choya vs tyler game. It specifically refers to an opponent who's on 1 base and who has abandoned blink stalker very early in favor of chargelots. See the game I'm referring to for more clarity. In this particular situation, I stand by the fact that going collosi off either 1 or 2 base is not the answer.

In a 2 base situation, your suggestion becomes more viable. However, I still think that zealot/archon/stalker/immortal is the way to go after an expansion. This is because if you go for collosi, you're basically just doing a late collosi build and might as well open collosi yourself instead of opening robo blink to counter blink.You also seem to underestimate the power of zealot/archon/stalker/immortal composition, as I have stated in the guide that this composition can directly take on a collosi army as long as the supplies aren't close to 200. Yes, it can even beat an army with 6 collosi. Maybe you're not using immortals when you're trying out the build?

Also, I disagree you always have a tech advantage when you're facing vs blink expand. Half the time, they add a robo right after the expansion and have robo tech as well.


I have done this in the past, and I concur that you can take on armies with up to about 6 colossi, but any more and it gets really, really, really hard. The ultimate goal really with this build is to end up with chargelots attacking the enemy stalkers/immortals/colossi, with the blink stalkers+remaining immortals attacking armoured units of the enemy, and with good engagements it can actually happen. The ONLY thing I have to add to this guide is you need to remind people to get 1-2 sentries for the express purpose of GS, especially when trying to engage mass colossi. 4 damage per target off the huge damage of colossi doesn't seem like much, but when you just need chargelots to eat one more round of colossus shots, it can make all the difference.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-01 09:53:10
August 01 2011 09:52 GMT
#16
First of, taking this out of my edit since you've replied already:

You need to consider the investments your opponent makes:
a) he techs charge: if you just keep your zealot-count up (as you've stated correctly) then the tech is a waste
b) he adds stalkers to be able to keep up the harassment: you have immortals that are much more cost-effective for defense
c) he adds the archives: again 200 gas

For the 200 gas of his charge-tech you can add the robo-bay. For the 200 gas of his archives you can add a colossus. For his first two archons you can add another THREE colossi. Meaning, without taking anything else into consideration, a chargelot+two archons combo is EQUAL in gas to mass zealots w/o charge + FOUR colossi. And he won't even have immortals as that's not the way an aggressive blink into charge/archon player will structure his composition.

On August 01 2011 18:41 4kmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
I think you are looking at it from the wrong side. Your opponent won't go for colossi, by assumption (!). Your opponent has opened blink into later robotics into expo and you have scouted that he is going chargelot/archon.
Then - and only then - is where I think a switch to colossi is strong. If your opponent has opened blink into expand and harasses you with blink/obs from a delayed robo. Then you can just let him harass you and macro up a huge colossus force. Since your opponent won't have immortals (he opened blink and went straight into zealot/archon), blink is the only threat for your colossi. And once they reach a critical size, blink stalkers aren't a match any more.


My point is that I don't see why your opponent can't add in immortals in his mix and basically turn the tables around where he goes zealot/archon/stalker/immortal versus your collosi. Also, your collosi will be late and small in number, so you won't be able to effectively contest any greedy expansions from your opponent while you're building up your collosi count.


You are true regarding a rather late colossus-switch. Nevertheless I'm of the opinion that you can afford going STRAIGHT for the colossi once you've confirmed the expansion. You have to keep in mind that he cannot punish greedy teching + economy-boosting at this point at all.
I can meet you halfway in that I agree that colossi require a larger map so he just can't march over and kill you in seconds I simply wanted to point out, that the colossus-player will gain an advantage the longer the game goes. And later on you could - in theory - add the archives yourself and go for a zealot/archon/colossus composition....which we've seen I think Nani do vs MC at homestory cup 3 if I remember correctly.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-01 10:25:26
August 01 2011 10:17 GMT
#17
On August 01 2011 18:52 sleepingdog wrote:
First of, taking this out of my edit since you've replied already:

You need to consider the investments your opponent makes:
a) he techs charge: if you just keep your zealot-count up (as you've stated correctly) then the tech is a waste
b) he adds stalkers to be able to keep up the harassment: you have immortals that are much more cost-effective for defense
c) he adds the archives: again 200 gas

For the 200 gas of his charge-tech you can add the robo-bay. For the 200 gas of his archives you can add a colossus. For his first two archons you can add another THREE colossi. Meaning, without taking anything else into consideration, a chargelot+two archons combo is EQUAL in gas to mass zealots w/o charge + FOUR colossi. And he won't even have immortals as that's not the way an aggressive blink into charge/archon player will structure his composition.


First of all, you're forgetting about the cost of the range upgrade, which makes the gas investments of both players even. Also, I completely address this issue in my guide where I talk about fixed cost vs variable cost. After you get over the fixed cost of charge/blink/templar archives, chargelot/archon is more cost efficient netting you 22 food for the price of 18 food of collosi. Also, I still don't see why your opponent won't have immortals when he has a robo and getting immortals is a good choice. I feel like you're just coming up with a hypothetical player who never gets immortals with zealot/archon.

Show nested quote +
On August 01 2011 18:41 4kmonk wrote:
On August 01 2011 18:32 sleepingdog wrote:
I think you are looking at it from the wrong side. Your opponent won't go for colossi, by assumption (!). Your opponent has opened blink into later robotics into expo and you have scouted that he is going chargelot/archon.
Then - and only then - is where I think a switch to colossi is strong. If your opponent has opened blink into expand and harasses you with blink/obs from a delayed robo. Then you can just let him harass you and macro up a huge colossus force. Since your opponent won't have immortals (he opened blink and went straight into zealot/archon), blink is the only threat for your colossi. And once they reach a critical size, blink stalkers aren't a match any more.


My point is that I don't see why your opponent can't add in immortals in his mix and basically turn the tables around where he goes zealot/archon/stalker/immortal versus your collosi. Also, your collosi will be late and small in number, so you won't be able to effectively contest any greedy expansions from your opponent while you're building up your collosi count.


You are true regarding a rather late colossus-switch. Nevertheless I'm of the opinion that you can afford going STRAIGHT for the colossi once you've confirmed the expansion. You have to keep in mind that he cannot punish greedy teching + economy-boosting at this point at all.
I can meet you halfway in that I agree that colossi require a larger map so he just can't march over and kill you in seconds I simply wanted to point out, that the colossus-player will gain an advantage the longer the game goes. And later on you could - in theory - add the archives yourself and go for a zealot/archon/colossus composition....which we've seen I think Nani do vs MC at homestory cup 3 if I remember correctly.


I do actually think collosi is a viable choice. Don't get me wrong on that. However, it's more fragile and vulnerable to timings. Plus, it's hard to expand with it and you lose map control. Mostly it depends on the map imo. For example, Antiga shipyards has an easily defend-able 2nd and 3rd so collosi might be good on that map. Map distance shouldn't matter though because of warpgates.

Also, i believe naniwa went zealot/archon/colossus on crossfire versus stalker collosi from mc. Zealot/archon/stalker/immortal isn't viable at all on that map.
Moderator
CCalms
Profile Joined November 2010
United States341 Posts
August 01 2011 10:30 GMT
#18
Beautiful guide!!! I've been putting so much effort into working out this style in PvP as of late but you really beat me to it.
WrathOfAiur
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany243 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-01 12:08:37
August 01 2011 12:08 GMT
#19
On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered.


could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs).

If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build).

So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something.

Great guide by the way!
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 01 2011 12:42 GMT
#20
On August 01 2011 21:08 WrathOfAiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Also, builds like geiko's defensive 3 gated force you more towards a plain blink stalker opening and shouldn't be considered.


could you elaborate on that? I don't really see the difference to MCs defensive 3 gate in that regard. They both take the second gas at 24 supply. Geiko's build just cuts a little more probes in favor of earlier gates. If the 4 gate is not coming, both builds should be in the same position to add a robo and TC. If both builds play it out totally safe, MC even gets 2 sentries. while geiko relies on one (it has 2 FFs).

If there are no indication of a 4 gate, I add the robo after the second gate (and don't produce units from the gates. this is a alteration of geiko's build).

So I wouldn't say that geiko's build is not a valid opening for robo/blink play. but maybe I am missing something.

Great guide by the way!


To be honest, you can probably go robo twilight with geiko's build as well. However, these are my original thoughts on why geiko's build wouldn't be as good. While MC's defensive 3 gate forces 1 zealot/4stalker/2 sentry to be completely safe from a 4 gate, geiko's build forces 1 zealot/6 stalker/1 sentry in addition to 2-4 fewer probes. Although generally it's true you'd rather have 2 stalkers than a sentry for a blink stalker build, geiko's build delays the robotics facility by about 10-20 seconds compared to MC's build. You might note that I stress scouting and reacting in my guide and that extra 10-20 seconds of missed scouting information can be crucial. For example, it might let your opponent get dts in, it might mean the difference between spotting a blink stalker allin in time, or most commonly it might mean a expansion 10-20 seconds later. Because of how tight this build normally is anyways, I really wouldn't want to delay my scouting info anymore.

Also, some might argue that 100 gas spent on the extra sentry is horrible. While I do admit that I'd rather not get the sentry if I didn't have to, I have a few arguments for the sentry. This robo/twilight macro style actually uses not so much gas compared to offensive blink builds or collosi builds. This is because you plan to dump 400 minerals in a nexus anyways. In fact, while my nexus is building, I often find that minerals are the limiting factor and not gas. Also, getting 2 sentries early on lets you build lots of energy for threats like blink stalker, dts, immortal pushes, or delayed 4 gates. It can also help greatly in a mirror if your opponent attacks you. In fact, in my guide, I suggest getting 3 sentries as a defense against a mirror build if you're expanding.
Moderator
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
AllThingsProtoss
11:00
Team League - Grand Finals
Gemini_1958
Liquipedia
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #93
ByuN vs herOLIVE!
CranKy Ducklings515
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .280
EnDerr 100
BRAT_OK 98
ProTech84
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 12345
Calm 5897
Horang2 3980
Shuttle 3161
Rain 2689
firebathero 829
Bisu 802
Jaedong 690
Hyuk 504
EffOrt 468
[ Show more ]
Snow 373
actioN 307
Mini 272
ggaemo 272
Last 259
Dewaltoss 134
JYJ118
Hyun 92
sorry 81
Aegong 68
TY 65
Pusan 63
sSak 44
Rush 39
Sea.KH 39
Barracks 30
Killer 29
Mong 23
GoRush 18
Sacsri 16
Sharp 16
JulyZerg 15
yabsab 10
soO 4
Terrorterran 3
ivOry 3
Britney 0
Dota 2
Gorgc5360
qojqva2244
XcaliburYe371
Fuzer 277
syndereN221
Counter-Strike
x6flipin532
allub366
olofmeister172
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor274
Other Games
singsing2247
B2W.Neo785
DeMusliM707
mouzStarbuck452
XaKoH 90
ArmadaUGS21
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream7343
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 31
StarCraft 2
angryscii 27
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 53
• Adnapsc2 23
• MJG 6
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3334
League of Legends
• Jankos1310
• Stunt336
Upcoming Events
Fire Grow Cup
1h 28m
BSL: ProLeague
4h 28m
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
10h 28m
Replay Cast
1d 10h
Replay Cast
1d 20h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
GSL Code S
2 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
3 days
GSL Code S
3 days
herO vs TBD
Classic vs TBD
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Cheesadelphia
6 days
GSL Code S
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-05
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.