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Great guide, finally got around to reading it in depth.
I have some questions, when you talk about dealing with blink builds, you say you should contain the blink player who is not expanding. Generally, the blink player will always try to keep you from pushing out by threatening to back stab, how do you get in a position to contain ? Also, I fail to see how you can contain someone who can blink out of his base ?
The biggest issue I'm having when playing this style however is vs the mass colossi. You state in your guide that your army composition beats colossi in small numbers (< 200 food). You say that therefore, you should force an engagement early on on open ground (either when he takes his third and tries to defend it, or when he tries to punish your early third). However, what do you do vs a player that just maxes out on 2 bases and pushes out with 8+ colossi ? In PvP I feel that having a large econ advantage isn't nearly as important as in other match ups, and one can lose a game with a 30 probe and 2 base lead if you just lose the big fight (which you will if you try to archon/zealot/immortal vs 8+ colossi armies.).
If you try to break his 2 base turtle, your melee units will break in his choke and sim city, and if you let him max out on 2 bases (and low probe count) your army will get war-of-the-world-ed and 20 reinforcing warpgates and 5000 minerals banked up wont help you much.
I feel at this point of the game, where he decides to turtle in response to your third and army composition, it's too late for you to tech switch into something cost efficient late game such as void rays or colossi and you are basically stuck playing with an inferior unit composition.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Once again, thanks for the awesome guide, it has really helped me improve my knowledge of the matchup.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 14 2011 20:27 Geiko wrote:
Great guide, finally got around to reading it in depth.
I have some questions, when you talk about dealing with blink builds, you say you should contain the blink player who is not expanding. Generally, the blink player will always try to keep you from pushing out by threatening to back stab, how do you get in a position to contain ? Also, I fail to see how you can contain someone who can blink out of his base ?
I wrote a response a long time ago but it got erased and I didn't feel like rewriting it. But here's a shortened version of my answer.
I don't exactly mean contain your opponent by the traditional sense of the word. You can't really keep him in his base, but rather you can somewhat pin him down. With the observer, you can keep track of his army movements easily. Thus, you can stay between him and your base, making sure he can't base trade and slowly close in on him. Also, because he doesn't have vision of your army and he knows you have vision of his, it will make him much more timid because of fear of blinking into a trap.
Also, if you get a big enough lead, you can just straight up sit outside his base and truly contain him. Check out kiwikaki vs huk on xelnaga from my guide for an example of this.
On August 14 2011 20:27 Geiko wrote:
The biggest issue I'm having when playing this style however is vs the mass colossi. You state in your guide that your army composition beats colossi in small numbers (< 200 food). You say that therefore, you should force an engagement early on on open ground (either when he takes his third and tries to defend it, or when he tries to punish your early third). However, what do you do vs a player that just maxes out on 2 bases and pushes out with 8+ colossi ? In PvP I feel that having a large econ advantage isn't nearly as important as in other match ups, and one can lose a game with a 30 probe and 2 base lead if you just lose the big fight (which you will if you try to archon/zealot/immortal vs 8+ colossi armies.).
If you try to break his 2 base turtle, your melee units will break in his choke and sim city, and if you let him max out on 2 bases (and low probe count) your army will get war-of-the-world-ed and 20 reinforcing warpgates and 5000 minerals banked up wont help you much.
I feel at this point of the game, where he decides to turtle in response to your third and army composition, it's too late for you to tech switch into something cost efficient late game such as void rays or colossi and you are basically stuck playing with an inferior unit composition.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Once again, thanks for the awesome guide, it has really helped me improve my knowledge of the matchup.
You'll do much better versus a maxed collosi army than you think. Think about it this way. If you kill all his zealots, you'll end up winning no matter what remains. It's a bit of an exaggeration, but 6 immortals can take on a lot of collosi/stalker.
If he tries to camp like this, make as many archons as you can and add as many gateways as you can. This will let you have a very strong initial army and be able to reinforce very quickly with your extra gateways.
Also, position yourself in an arc outside his base. This will let you have the positional advantage as he tries to break your contain.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
those replay link do not work for me, can u upload replays somewhere else and pm me with the link pls
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United States8477 Posts
On August 21 2011 07:56 EliteReplay wrote:
those replay link do not work for me, can u upload replays somewhere else and pm me with the link pls
Please get a friend to download them and send them to you.
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i was just gonna post this build actually, been working on it for as long as i can remember. Theres a few variations of when to attack but if anyone wants to see how to play extremely well with it and hit at a great timing, watch this vod:
http://www.twitch.tv/gosucoachingtv/b/293070026
its part 2 should be 36.49 mins long just jump to 19ish in to watch. liquidhero goes for the robo twilight and just owns axslav who 1 base collis.
Whats great about this build is that nothing hard counters it. If you learn how to not lose to a 4 gate then u have immorts ready for blink stalks, you can wall ur front around 7 mins just in case of dts, and I havent lost very many games to zealot archon by just going colli instead and turtling... everytime ive see a big colli vs archon fight ive very rarely seen archon win in the late late game.
I have occassionally lost to an early expand but thats just my fault for not checking early enough.
Before watching this hero vod, my build revolved around basically all inning at around the 10-11 minute mark with 8-10 zeals 8-10 stalks 2-3 immorts and a sentry or 2. I blink to kill or busy the colli and let the rest of my army fight head on. I actually pull gas and add a gate (up to 4) for this and have had a good amount of success.
after watching hero, i gotta try his style a little bit more. Add a few extra blink stalk, pick off outside buildings and stray units, and expand behind it. I have no idea if his forward blink to kill the immort and colli were good since it seemed just hopeful but damn that worked out well for him. I liked that he hit right inbetween 1 and 2 colli which i think is the best time in theory to hit with this build.
im a bit angry now cause ill probably be facing more mirrors in the future and that was the whole point to making this build. As you can see in a mirror situation theres a lot going on and a lot to consider... what i liked that you wrote was expand and defend. That does seem optimal since the mirror should have no massive units for a long time to break a ff in the front (only works on maps where the nat has a ramp) but i guess any sort of choke could do.
regardless, thanks for posting...
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Hi monk, I like the write up and I'm trying to learn this style now but I have a question regarding the following statement:
On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Geiko's defensive 3 gate is another good choice as long as you don't get too many stalkers early on thus delaying your robo. The timing of the robo is very important for this build, as you want scouting information as soon as possible. [/url]
I use this build but it feels like a 3 Stalker rush -> Robo gets just a fast a Robo as I do. If I scout him making an early second GW (after Core whilst not making a Zealot) can I go for a 1 gate Robo build or do I have to get 1 or 2 GW before Robo?
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United States8477 Posts
On August 22 2011 19:30 Tekakan wrote:Hi monk, I like the write up and I'm trying to learn this style now but I have a question regarding the following statement: Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Geiko's defensive 3 gate is another good choice as long as you don't get too many stalkers early on thus delaying your robo. The timing of the robo is very important for this build, as you want scouting information as soon as possible. I use this build but it feels like a 3 Stalker rush -> Robo gets just a fast a Robo as I do. If I scout him making an early second GW (after Core whilst not making a Zealot) can I go for a 1 gate Robo build or do I have to get 1 or 2 GW before Robo?
No, he can still do a hardcore 4 gate that hits at 5:45 with a 2 gate no zealot opening. I would recommend a gas steal along with a safe PvP build.
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On August 22 2011 19:39 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 19:30 Tekakan wrote:Hi monk, I like the write up and I'm trying to learn this style now but I have a question regarding the following statement: On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Geiko's defensive 3 gate is another good choice as long as you don't get too many stalkers early on thus delaying your robo. The timing of the robo is very important for this build, as you want scouting information as soon as possible. I use this build but it feels like a 3 Stalker rush -> Robo gets just a fast a Robo as I do. If I scout him making an early second GW (after Core whilst not making a Zealot) can I go for a 1 gate Robo build or do I have to get 1 or 2 GW before Robo? No, he can still do a hardcore 4 gate that hits at 5:45 with a 2 gate no zealot opening. I would recommend a gas steal along with a safe PvP build.
Thanks for the advice, it worked out really well. I got to try it in my first ladder game after reading your post. 
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What a detailed guide - well done Monk!
I am finding it tough to work out the difference between this guide and Cecil's similar Twilight Council PvP. Here is what I think there difference is:
1) You advocate a robo/blink build where you can get an observer to scout asap and immortals to win direct fights. Cecil's guide goes for blink/robo (or blink/forge) where u use blink to gain map control.
2) Robo/blink is "safer" becasue altho u lose map control, you have stronger units (immortals and blink stalkers) to win direct fights and also have an earlier observer to see exactly what the opponent is doing. Blink/robo is safe in that u have map control, but that relies on good micro and scouting from what units u see at the front of the opponent's base as you harass.
Is that right??
Some other questions about your build generally if u dont mind 
1) What is the key thing you look for to know you are safe from 4gate to put down your robo? Is it pretty much the 2nd gas timing (and then the later probe scout sent in to scout unit composition)?
2) Regarding blink-first opponents:
a) You said that you should contain a blink all-in player (if he hasnt expanded) and expand behind this. In this case, do you get your Twlight Council before or after the nexus?
b) If the earliest blink is at 6:40, and say you put ur robo down earliest 6mins (e.g. Antiga Shipyard replay), how do you even know at this point if its blink for certain? If you are waiting for observers to confirm he is going blink, wont this be later (like 7:30min ish)??
Thx!!
Edit: Just realised I accidently posted teh same paragraph twice - changed now.
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If Blizzard were to increase the time of the Blink research would that really affect this build much? The way I see it less people will be going for Blink and 4 gate and more will go for Robo thus making it easier to throw down that TC faster. It will also delay the blink all in builds which seemed to be the biggest threat judging by your OP.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 29 2011 16:16 J.E.G. wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12409Lost this one. I feel like i was way ahead w/ my ninja expo and did some decent infrastructure damage but in the final engagement i get rolled vs 5 colli any tips?
I'm just gonna comment mainly on the final battle:
- you had a 4th going up but only 6 gateways. Instead, you should have about 8-10 gateways.
- your immortal count was too high. 7 is way too many for 170 food. Aim for 5 or lower.
- your archons got stuck. Try to position them before a fight.
- you waste a blink before the battle and thus couldn't target his collosi with an aggressive blink.
- you fought in a choke.
- your upgrades were the same. Not a mistake persay, but you could do better.
- you didn't have a forward pylon to reinforce with waves of zealots during the fight.
You actually were very close to winning the last fight. If he hadn't warped in a set of zealots at the end, your immortals could have been close to cleaning up his army.
Few other things:
I didn't understand your choice to make 3 immortals early game.
That map probably isn't the best to go a gateway based army, especially in close positions.
You could be more aggressive with your stalkers. For example, all you have to do is poke into his natural and blink out. This will both pressure him and allow you to scout his army.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 24 2011 09:11 bankai wrote:
What a detailed guide - well done Monk!
I am finding it tough to work out the difference between this guide and Cecil's similar Twilight Council PvP. Here is what I think there difference is:
1) You advocate a robo/blink build where you can get an observer to scout asap and immortals to win direct fights. Cecil's guide goes for blink/robo (or blink/forge) where u use blink to gain map control.
2) Robo/blink is "safer" becasue altho u lose map control, you have stronger units (immortals and blink stalkers) to win direct fights and also have an earlier observer to see exactly what the opponent is doing. Blink/robo is safe in that u have map control, but that relies on good micro and scouting from what units u see at the front of the opponent's base as you harass.
Is that right??
Yea, you got the basic gists. Robo/blink is only safer because of the observer. You actually want to stay away from immortals as much as possible. Also, with the robo, you can easily scout his tech choice instead of having to blink a stalker up his ramp and possibly losing it. Plus, you get easier harass mid game.
I actually open blink quite often, but I don't play it the way Cecil plays it. I really dislike the forge and cannons for detection, so instead i go blink when I'm reasonably sure dts aren't coming. Also, if you read our guides carefully, we advocate different responses mid game.
On August 24 2011 09:11 bankai wrote:Some other questions about your build generally if u dont mind 1) What is the key thing you look for to know you are safe from 4gate to put down your robo? Is it pretty much the 2nd gas timing (and then the later probe scout sent in to scout unit composition)? 2) Regarding blink-first opponents: a) You said that you should contain a blink all-in player (if he hasnt expanded) and expand behind this. In this case, do you get your Twlight Council before or after the nexus? b) If the earliest blink is at 6:40, and say you put ur robo down earliest 6mins (e.g. Antiga Shipyard replay), how do you even know at this point if its blink for certain? If you are waiting for observers to confirm he is going blink, wont this be later (like 7:30min ish)?? Thx!! Edit: Just realised I accidently posted teh same paragraph twice - changed now.
1.- Check how much gas he's mined. If he just throws down a 2nd gas and doesn't mine from it, it could still be a 4 gate.
- Check for the existence of a 3rd pylon.
- Check chornoboost energy. If he's used 3 on non-warpgates, it's less likely to be a 4 gate. If he's used 4 or more, it's probably not 4 gate.
2.
a. Twilight council first.
b. As I've said before in this thread, a 6:40 blink can only come if he gets a super fast 2nd gas at around 3:00. If he does that, you don't need an anti 4 gate build and can just go 1 gate robo. If you are unsure on whether it's blink or not, start making an immortal and cancel it if you can confirm not blink.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 29 2011 09:45 Tekakan wrote:
If Blizzard were to increase the time of the Blink research would that really affect this build much? The way I see it less people will be going for Blink and 4 gate and more will go for Robo thus making it easier to throw down that TC faster. It will also delay the blink all in builds which seemed to be the biggest threat judging by your OP.
Blink research increase won't affect this actual build that much. However, I actually do foresee more collosi builds becuase of immortal buff/blink nerf. MC has said so himself that he thinks this will be the metagame shift.
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On August 29 2011 21:55 4kmonk wrote:I'm just gonna comment mainly on the final battle: - you had a 4th going up but only 6 gateways. Instead, you should have about 8-10 gateways.
- your immortal count was too high. 7 is way too many for 170 food. Aim for 5 or lower.
- your archons got stuck. Try to position them before a fight.
- you waste a blink before the battle and thus couldn't target his collosi with an aggressive blink.
- you fought in a choke.
- your upgrades were the same. Not a mistake persay, but you could do better.
- you didn't have a forward pylon to reinforce with waves of zealots during the fight.
You actually were very close to winning the last fight. If he hadn't warped in a set of zealots at the end, your immortals could have been close to cleaning up his army. Few other things: I didn't understand your choice to make 3 immortals early game. That map probably isn't the best to go a gateway based army, especially in close positions. You could be more aggressive with your stalkers. For example, all you have to do is poke into his natural and blink out. This will both pressure him and allow you to scout his army.
So should I only make one or two immortals early on? In the guide I understood that you want to get some immortals out once you aren't getting 4-gated to counter possible blink all-in, so i started cranking them out. Should i just go for two in the early game as per the possibility of the 7:40 blink all-in?
Also, quick question about vs. a colossus 1base all-in: would you recommend bringing your entire army to the base trade or only use the blink stalkers in the base trade? I find it hard to dodge his ball with my non-blinking army and get into his base, so i usually just defend with it to soften his ball up, but it just gets pointlessly rolled, eventually leading to my opponent finding my hidden bases which i can't really defend with only blink stalkers.
Thanks a lot for the help!!
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United States8477 Posts
On August 30 2011 04:10 J.E.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 21:55 4kmonk wrote:On August 29 2011 16:16 J.E.G. wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/12409Lost this one. I feel like i was way ahead w/ my ninja expo and did some decent infrastructure damage but in the final engagement i get rolled vs 5 colli any tips? I'm just gonna comment mainly on the final battle: - you had a 4th going up but only 6 gateways. Instead, you should have about 8-10 gateways.
- your immortal count was too high. 7 is way too many for 170 food. Aim for 5 or lower.
- your archons got stuck. Try to position them before a fight.
- you waste a blink before the battle and thus couldn't target his collosi with an aggressive blink.
- you fought in a choke.
- your upgrades were the same. Not a mistake persay, but you could do better.
- you didn't have a forward pylon to reinforce with waves of zealots during the fight.
You actually were very close to winning the last fight. If he hadn't warped in a set of zealots at the end, your immortals could have been close to cleaning up his army. Few other things: I didn't understand your choice to make 3 immortals early game. That map probably isn't the best to go a gateway based army, especially in close positions. You could be more aggressive with your stalkers. For example, all you have to do is poke into his natural and blink out. This will both pressure him and allow you to scout his army. So should I only make one or two immortals early on? In the guide I understood that you want to get some immortals out once you aren't getting 4-gated to counter possible blink all-in, so i started cranking them out. Should i just go for two in the early game as per the possibility of the 7:40 blink all-in? Also, quick question about vs. a colossus 1base all-in: would you recommend bringing your entire army to the base trade or only use the blink stalkers in the base trade? I find it hard to dodge his ball with my non-blinking army and get into his base, so i usually just defend with it to soften his ball up, but it just gets pointlessly rolled, eventually leading to my opponent finding my hidden bases which i can't really defend with only blink stalkers. Thanks a lot for the help!!
Try to stay away from immortals as much as possible if he's not blink allining you. For example, you should have gotten 0 in your game. However, get 2 as fast as possible if you're getting blink allined.
Don't bring the rest of your army when you're base trading. However, you shouldn't have many other units anyways.
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On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army.
Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors.
BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units.
a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly.
the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro.
I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least
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On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least
Are you PeTeR on the NA ladder? If so, we were on equal bases. In fact, all of my expansions went up slightly faster than yours. It was a fun game, though.
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This has been my experience as well. Then there is the issue when armor upgrades get higher. Zealots just get mopped up too quickly imo
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pretty sure it clearly states BELOW 200/200
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EPT
