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United States8476 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least
Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay.
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On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least
Telling someone they are wrong through your "experience", without providing a replay or referencing a pro game with available VOD, is the leading cause of forum misinformation. 4 out of 5 posters recommend you back up your statements and floss daily.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 01 2011 04:05 Archontas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Telling someone they are wrong through your "experience", without providing a replay or referencing a pro game with available VOD, is the leading cause of forum misinformation. 4 out of 5 posters recommend you back up your statements and floss daily.
lol well said
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On September 01 2011 03:57 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay.
Sry for the wrong statement, you clearly said below 200. Still, i'm a little confused at how much is "below" to you. Can you be more specific?
Also, if thing got to a point where you and your oponent maxed on those armies, what is the right thing to do? (beside, not getting to that point ofc )
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On September 01 2011 04:05 Archontas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Telling someone they are wrong through your "experience", without providing a replay or referencing a pro game with available VOD, is the leading cause of forum misinformation. 4 out of 5 posters recommend you back up your statements and floss daily.
You are very right sir. I provided no evidence of this and also misread some statements the OP said. I'll give this strat one moer chance, and if i fail i will come back, with replays and everything.
Sorry for the inconvenience. Wish me luck !
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On September 01 2011 05:39 DrStein wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 03:57 4kmonk wrote:On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay. Sry for the wrong statement, you clearly said below 200. Still, i'm a little confused at how much is "below" to you. Can you be more specific? Also, if thing got to a point where you and your oponent maxed on those armies, what is the right thing to do? (beside, not getting to that point ofc )
Not really sure what to tell you, you're basically asking "what do I do if my opponent has a better army than me?" Standard-issue advice applies - don't fight it head on, try and catch him out of position, snipe units, drop his worker line, etc.
But yeah, like 4kmonk's guide says, if it does get to this point, it means you let him take a 3rd base without punishment and the game is now his to lose. I'd love for someone to post a replay where they pulled it off.
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One of the best guides I have ever seen, ever, and might help me come to grips with the most cringeworthy matchup, ever.
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Awesome idea I got stomped by this build just last week and thought nothing of it bow thinking back that was a super strong lategame composition
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Italy12246 Posts
I tend to suck against people that delay colossus (say our openings mirror, but then he goes for colo rather than charge/archon), or go for a colossus expand, because if he plays really passive i find it's quite hard to find a good open area to engage on many maps. In that case, is it a good rule of thumb to go for some kind of timing (get up to 6-7 gates and just go) when he is getting range and his first 2 colossi (assuming i see 2 robos and/or a support bay with an obs)?
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On September 01 2011 03:57 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay.
There is a really nice replay of Dream.Attero vs Vile.State in the last TL open (nr 22). The game is on shakuras plateau and one players goes for 5 colo, the other for chargelot and archons. The player with colossi is ahead due to the opening stages of the game: his army costs 1000 more minerals then the archon/chargelot player.
Yet when the battle occurs, the colossi players loses the battle and eventually the game, even tough he was clearly ahead before the engagement.
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On September 05 2011 22:00 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 03:57 4kmonk wrote:On August 31 2011 14:56 DrStein wrote:On August 01 2011 00:20 4kmonk wrote:
Before we get started here, it's important to get some facts straight. In equal foods below 200, with equally low upgrades like 2-0-0 or 3-1-0, with the correct ratios, and in not a terribly chokey/narrow position, chargelot/archon/immortal/stalker will consistently beat a collosi based army. Man, i gotta say i'm kinda mad with you. I tried your build with somewhat great sucess, but i guess is only because PvP is my strongest match so there are many factors. BUT ( the big one ), the statement quoted is completly false, and have costed me many, many games where i would had won if followed another compostion of units. a 200 Zea/archon/immo/stalker cannot beat a 200 colo based army (assuming all the things you said ofc like open pos. micro, etc )... NOT even if you are up in upgrades, numbers. The result is you losing everything and your oponent keeping more than half is colos. I have lost to players who had 2 less bases than me because the remaining of his army is too big and strong to properly abuse economical advantage and reinfroce properly. the only way an army like that, at nearly or 200 food can beat colo, is if your oponent is very, VERY bad at micro. I'm not saying that the guides sucks, but it doesnt do well vs macro Colo players. Not at Master+ at least Yea, I'm pretty sure my guide clearly states below 200 food. So basically 180 food or less. Wwith the build that suggest, you should have a supply lead at those supplies. In addition, my guide clearly states how to combat the collosi maxing problem. Post a replay. There is a really nice replay of Dream.Attero vs Vile.State in the last TL open (nr 22). The game is on shakuras plateau and one players goes for 5 colo, the other for chargelot and archons. The player with colossi is ahead due to the opening stages of the game: his army costs 1000 more minerals then the archon/chargelot player. Yet when the battle occurs, the colossi players loses the battle and eventually the game, even tough he was clearly ahead before the engagement.
The same thing happened with mana vs Ace on Shattered.
Really nice guide, thanks for posting +all the work. I have pretty much been a fan of this since I saw it poping up so thanks for writing a guide on it ^^.
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hi i dont understand why you would build the twilight council and a robo and not build zelaots for charge and build immortals which dont profit from blink?
sorry for my bad english
hope i could help with your build
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United States8476 Posts
On September 05 2011 21:45 Teoita wrote:
I tend to suck against people that delay colossus (say our openings mirror, but then he goes for colo rather than charge/archon), or go for a colossus expand, because if he plays really passive i find it's quite hard to find a good open area to engage on many maps. In that case, is it a good rule of thumb to go for some kind of timing (get up to 6-7 gates and just go) when he is getting range and his first 2 colossi (assuming i see 2 robos and/or a support bay with an obs)?
Imo, in most cases, the worst thing you can do is tech to collosi in a mirror. This does 2 things. Firstly, you can easily die to timings while you're getting collosi, as the investment into robotics support bay + range + collosi doesn't really break even until around 3 collosi. Even if your opponent decides to play macro, the collosi player is forced into a defensive position. Finally, by going collosi, it allows your opponent's blink stalkers to be very useful. They can now go suicide for collosi instead of firing into an opposing zealot ling.
Versus collosi expand, I detail how to play versus that in my guide. I've seen lots of timings work extremely well versus delayed collosi expands, but it's completely viable to play a macro game versus collosi expands.
On September 08 2011 06:22 yagsllab wrote:
hi i dont understand why you would build the twilight council and a robo and not build zelaots for charge and build immortals which dont profit from blink?
sorry for my bad english
hope i could help with your build
I hope I made it clear enough in my guide why I do the things I suggest. Short answer for why I don't get charge early: It's not part of my strategy and it wouldn't work if it were. Short answer for immortals: to defend vs blink allins.
To everyone else: I'm on vacation atm so I can't really watch replays or anything.
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Great guide, I guys HuK has already read it  . Typical HuK style as of late, too bad hes using it in the "wrong" situations. Like doing it blind vs a 15nexus first... :s. Not good. 
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i think you got a point there remorse i found that if opponent fake 4 gate into expand by 6:45 when you realise no 4 gate is coming you cannot break their expand so you re forced into expanding yourself
then they re usually so ahead with zealot charge / stalker blink they can just overwhelm your poor composition with 2 immortal in it at least on open natural
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When would u usually decide to expand? Would u usually expand after u determined it's safe and get blink, or what? :O
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United States8476 Posts
I think i covered that pretty well in my guide. If you're still unclear, maybe ask a more specific question?
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Italy12246 Posts
I just lost a game doing this build vs a colossus build, and would like to know how i could have played better. This is the replay: http://drop.sc/35082
My thought process during the match was this: i open with a defensive 3gate as i see he takes no fast second gas and has lots of crhono saved up; at the same time i'm faking a 4gate to make him play honest. I send out a probe around 6.00 (a bit late), and since i see no units i figure he's not 4gating, so i start teching when i only have 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and a sentry out.
Since i saw no fast second gas i throw down my twilight shortly after the robo, as he's probably far away from getting blink and i'm not particularly afraid of a blink allin.
At around 9.00 i poke his nat and see lots of zealots and no expo, so i correctly assume colossi; i decide to move out on the map and start harassing as blink finishes while my nexus completes. My harass is succesful enough in delaying his push, so he expands.
The moment i see it i start on zealot charge and cut stalker production; eventually i try to add a templar archives, extra gates and forge but he pushes with 3 colossi and a bunch of gateway units and he just rolls me right before my extra gates and templar archives finish.
So, what could i have done better? The guide mentions adding gates and gasses faster while delaying tech a bit, was this my main problem? Thanks a lot
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United States8476 Posts
On September 16 2011 22:08 Teoita wrote:I just lost a game doing this build vs a colossus build, and would like to know how i could have played better. This is the replay: http://drop.sc/35082My thought process during the match was this: i open with a defensive 3gate as i see he takes no fast second gas and has lots of crhono saved up; at the same time i'm faking a 4gate to make him play honest. I send out a probe around 6.00 (a bit late), and since i see no units i figure he's not 4gating, so i start teching when i only have 3 stalkers, 1 zealot and a sentry out. Since i saw no fast second gas i throw down my twilight shortly after the robo, as he's probably far away from getting blink and i'm not particularly afraid of a blink allin. At around 9.00 i poke his nat and see lots of zealots and no expo, so i correctly assume colossi; i decide to move out on the map and start harassing as blink finishes while my nexus completes. My harass is succesful enough in delaying his push, so he expands. The moment i see it i start on zealot charge and cut stalker production; eventually i try to add a templar archives, extra gates and forge but he pushes with 3 colossi and a bunch of gateway units and he just rolls me right before my extra gates and templar archives finish. So, what could i have done better? The guide mentions adding gates and gasses faster while delaying tech a bit, was this my main problem? Thanks a lot
Losing your first probe is pretty big.
You're not aggressive enough with your first stalkers. On that map, you can safely position your stalkers at your natural ramp at the very least. If you had more map control by not losing your initial probe, you could more safely conclude it's not a 4 gate incoming. With that you can be more aggro. You see he didn't get his 2nd gas early, so once you rule out 4 gate at around 6:00, you can very safely poke around the map with your stalkers for quite a long time, as you mention yourself that you're not afraid of a blink allin for a while.
If you get more map control because of all those things I just mentioned, you can cut a lot more corners, such as skipping immortal, getting faster observers, faster twilight, and faster expansion.
Your harass could be a lot better. You lose your zealot/immortal/sentry combo needlessly.
You get your gates late and not enough of them.
Hotkey your stalkers and other units separately.
You don't scout that he cut probes for basically an allin.
You target his collosi with your entire army when you should a move your zealot and immortals.
You should blink to the side of his army to target collosi instead of into his army.
Your macro wasn't good because you didn't have enough gates early enough. You were floating tons of money during the fight.
Bad positioning. Your army was in a clump when you engaged him.
You had too many probes at your main.
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Italy12246 Posts
Thanks a lot for the feedback. One more question: as a general rule of thumb, i would go immortal first if i see a second gas, and obs first if i don't? Are there any other hthings i should look for when making that decision (other than poking his ramp and seeing the stalker/zealot count)?
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EPT
