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I just had the worst streak of bad allies today. Going through my replays, I see the main reason for the losing streak: Communication, or the lack thereof.
Since this is new ground for most players here, I'm going to talk about communication in team games, specifically, the hotkeys for facilitating good coordination.
Enter - In 1v1 and in FFA, this defaults to Send to All. In team games, pressing Enter defaults to Send to Allies. This should be pretty obvious, but I've been in games where my ally never says anything during the game, only using the chat function to blame me when we lose.
Shift + Enter - Send to All. Useful for saying "gl hf" at the beginning of a game.
Alt + G - Minimap ping. A good amount of 1v1 players are surprisingly unaware of this hotkey, as evidenced by the last game I played. My ally sends his army in without telling me about it or pinging the minimap. He then blames me for being too passive that the enemy team has taken full map control.
When I look at his profile, I see that he is actually a Diamond-level player in 1v1, so he is at least somewhat decent at the game. We were both much better than our opponents, but our lack of communication lost us the game.
In another game, where I'm in a PZ team, my ally retreats without telling me or signaling me through a ping, causing me to lose a significant chunk of my army to a 2v1 engagement. The annoying part was that we had a slight advantage that he completely threw away by retreating.
Shared Control - Not a hotkey, but in the upper-rightmost corner of the screen, there is a tiny button which pulls up the diplomacy screen (that's what it's called in most RTS games, don't know what it's called in Starcraft 2). It shows a list of players in the game as well as their chosen races, in case you weren't paying attention to the loading screen. It also lets you share or revoke control for your allies.
The main advantage of shared control is that a single mind can coordinate the entire team's army more fluidly than two. For example, a PP team where one player goes for zealots and the other stalkers, sharing control will allow one player to coordinate the zealots and the stalkers much more effectively than two players have to type or talk to each other to charge forward or retreat.
In my last game, I was in a PP team, and I told my ally to train blink stalkers while I trained chargelots. I tell him that I have given him control of my units so he can use my zealots with his stalkers. As mentioned above, he moves into battle without telling me or sending my zealots in, and he blames me for the loss shortly before ragequitting.
So yeah, I had a bad day today. However, if I give up now, 2v2 will get that much worse, so I will forge on. 
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So. Autolose FE: that was more in the vein of a weak zerg player and no wallin (plus a weak toss player) rather then a loss to a rush due to BO. The zerg had 600 mins, the toss 400/200 in the FE one vs your 200 mins as zerg and your allies low the whole time AKA it was a macro win not a BO win.
The double 2 gate was because the other terran player didn't wall in. If facing a zerg or PP you have to wall in. It's actually easier to defend imo if you just use solid builds. Solid builds can both defend and put aggression back. TT and TP are the only ones you don't wall in.
Lack of specialization: that wasn't due to lack of specialization at all. I would place it squarely on macro and giving away free units. Look at Teal, the other team's terran. He did a near identical comp and just had position plus unit count on you due to macro. He didn't leak units at all. Played defensively and built up an army of death while blue made blunder after blunder eventually saccing his whole army in a charge for the zerg main (don't go for mains, cut off expansions). He denied the zerg base, should've controlled the top and encroached on the zerg natural pressuring from the north while dropping from behind.
Specialization: this one is the only one I can agree to. Mobility can mean a lot. Marine ling is strong because it's early, it's fast and it combines melee/ranged. They left really early though. The game was even. Workers, food count. You don't need 2 people to go mobile though, just one. The other should generally go for a more stable muscular army, because otherwise they can just turtle and then push winning the game. For example, TT one goes bio other goes mech.
I wouldn't take these replays as an indication of what should and shouldn't happen in 2v2 (except for the specialization one). Macro and tactical choices/position are what lost these games not strategy or unit comps.
I mean FEs can work, depending on the map and matchup plus scouting information. Z vs non-zerg the zerg can comfortably FE. It's risky for T or P to FE though. You'd need to scout a non-rush (still can be 1 base though) build and have a decent map to hold comfortably. FE into mass marine leads into a similar unit count to 3 rax by 7 minutes, just with a slightly later stim. If the FE is left untouched and your ally dies you can 1v2 as well, just need to take a 3rd relatively soon and outmacro. If facing a zerg, you can FE only as zerg if you can match overall unit count. Say 15 hatch vs 14 pool would be okay if you know he's going lings to pump lings yourself, but 10 pool would punish you. More often then not, 1 base timing is the way to go though. You don't need to rush every game either, I generally do a 7 minute timing push for either tanks or bio.
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The maps are a huge issue.
Blizzard has to add size and balance to the ladder maps. Some maps are too favored for aggressive teams. (gutterhulk) and some maps are too favored for turtling teams (Scorched Haven, Ruins of Tarsonis. (One guy can wall, other guy can tech).
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On July 19 2011 23:38 Cracked wrote:
I love 2v2. I find playing with friends is far more interesting than playing 1v1.
One of the things I've learned in 2v2 is that there is no such thing as overreacting. In 1v1, people are loathe to even put down one spine crawler or one cannon. In 2v2, put down 5 and it's still worth it. Most longer 2v2's are won on the 3rd base, since the 2nd base is usually quite easy to get. I would not mind putting 5-10 cannons at the 3rd, because that means they cannot kill it with a marauding force (like speedling or a drop), but need to move their main army to do so. This means that they may be out of position or engage in a poor spot. With so much AoE damage and DPS from 2 players, being slightly out of position means that you die very rapidly.
One thing I hate, as protoss, are the maps that you cannot wall with gate/core/zealot. This is just a complete crapshoot in that I'm trying my best to simcity my base and die as slowly as possible - and that is a skill in itself.
I have to disagree a little with the overreaction bit... If I make 5 mutas and only kill 4 workers and a pylon, but they overreact and make 5 turrets/cannons each, those mutas did a ton more eco damage than you'd think.... Same as 1v1 except you can force greater reaction. One player going cloaked banshee or dt or muta forces both players on the opposing team to get detection or static defense (not 100% of the time but often), so they end up doing 2x as much damage as they would in a 1v1.
Also, there's a few comments about maps being too rush favored or not enough shared base... Read blizzards release on season 3 maps. They are addressing this very issue, and consider 2's a competitive format, since statistically good players play 1's and sometimes 2's but rarely 3's and 4's. They are making more shared base maps in 2's while keeping 3's and 4's maps varied/more casual. Seems like the same progression that happened in wc3 but never in bw.
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In all team games there are certain units which cause absolute havok.
>DTs, voidrays and phoinx for Protoss
>Mutas, lings and infestors for Zerg
>Banshees, hellions and drops (i know thats not a unit) for Terran
The reason for this is because they are all harass units, you can bounce between enemy players with them and cause mass amounts of damage, often causing the enemy to go all in and attack you head on, or pull their entire army back to deal with them.
If they are not prepared for these units then you can out right win a game with pure harass. My personal favorite is to go ling infestor with heavy upgrades and a quick hive. I personally love this because lings tank for my ally allowing him to do alot of damage when we attack. Typically my lings will die before before renforcements arrive so instead of renforcing my allies attack i will just run into the other players base while their army and attension is elsewhere.
Also infestors are soo good, even if they know you have them it's surprising how many players forget they can burrow, 2 infestors to each enemy base lobbing infested terrans to snipe nexuz/hatch/CC, when that happens at 4 bases all at once many players can not handle it and lose much more then they should, and then forget to look for the infestors hidden in their base ready to do it again.
Just to prove how good some units are in team games i played a 3v3 (yes i realise this is a 2v2 thread but it's relivent) and did a team monobattle, DT, Infestor, Marine. The DT player got rushed but managed to hold on and even though they knew what was coming and had delayed it they could not cope with the DT and Infestor harass. 2 manner Nexus and 1 manner CC ends the game ^^
In team games the general play is weaker then in 1v1 and there is alot of focus on the early rush but if that rush doesnt win the game or do serious damage then you are behind. For people saying you can't fast expand and you just one base all in to masters, that's rubish. When you come against a team as good as you if the game doesnt end in the first 10mins then prepare for an epic game. Team games are always more fun when they go into a macro game, often skipping the midgame and going headlong into the late games as players try to get their best units out "Im rushing carriers!" *facepalm*
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I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
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On July 20 2011 17:33 lorkac wrote:
I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
That shit seems sick, is that even possible? Do they repair the health of the stalkers?
Terran just having shitloads of SCVs and money dumping in to a 6 gating blink stalker protoss
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On July 20 2011 17:37 JoeAWESOME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 17:33 lorkac wrote:
I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
That shit seems sick, is that even possible? Do they repair the health of the stalkers? Terran just having shitloads of SCVs and money dumping in to a 6 gating blink stalker protoss
Stalkers are mechanical so yes it would work. However it would be impractical because of the number of SCVs you would need for the stalkers and also bling stalkers are much more mobile the SCVs, it would be much better to have units like hellions instead of the SCVs.
Although having reread what i've just written i've just realise that you could go in for an attack (blink stalker hellion) and then repair everything when you pull back to your base so you then have full health hellions and stalkers again plus extra units you should have been making the whole time
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On July 20 2011 17:43 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 17:37 JoeAWESOME wrote:On July 20 2011 17:33 lorkac wrote:
I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
That shit seems sick, is that even possible? Do they repair the health of the stalkers? Terran just having shitloads of SCVs and money dumping in to a 6 gating blink stalker protoss Stalkers are mechanical so yes it would work. However it would be impractical because of the number of SCVs you would need for the stalkers and also bling stalkers are much more mobile the SCVs, it would be much better to have units like hellions instead of the SCVs. Although having reread what i've just written i've just realise that you could go in for an attack (blink stalker hellion) and then repair everything when you pull back to your base so you then have full health hellions and stalkers again plus extra units you should have been making the whole time
What I'd love to see is an Immortal being mass repaired as he's battling a Thor.
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Just been thinking about blink stalkers and i thought id point out some things which when you think about it are quite obvious little tips that you can use in mixed teams (not 2 of the same race)
1. SCV repair protoss units (already mensioned earlier in the thread)
2. Overlord can spot highground for pylon warpins directly into the enemy base, same with blinking up cliffs
3. Terran can scan, or observer can be used, to pop a nydus worm into the enemy base
4. Medivacs can be used on all Zerg units
5. You cannot use transports belonging to your ally even with shared control (i cant put roaches in your medivac, you can't put tanks in my nydus) UNLESS that player leaves the game, then he can put his colossus on my ovies 
6. Playing a ZPv** P leaves the game  i can chronoboost my zerg buildings to increase research time, also can be used to increase production (spawn lavie is boosted). Same with any combo containing a P that leaves
7. Spash damage which does friendly fire to your own units also does friendly fire to you ally (tank shots do splash that hurts you, collosus don't)
Also, in addition to my earlier post where i named units which rule at team games because of harassment i'm going to list the army units which kick ass:
Collosus, blink stalkers, sentries, chargelots, immortals for Protoss
>Collosus, excellent with a large army to support them
>Blink stalkers, very good if microed correctly
>Sentries, you can split armies up or use them to FF a ramp behind you when you attack into the main, preventing the enemies ally from helping
>Chargelots, deal good damage and can tank very well
>Immortals, tank a lot of damage and can do alot of damage if microed (target armored units)
Roaches, Infestors, Broodlords for Zerg
>Roaches are very fast, quickly replaced and their upgrades scale really well, also with burrow micro and burrow move they can be excellent in both battle and harass
>Infestors, fungal a retrating army to destroy them, fungal so you can retread or fungal in battle, it's all good. Also it provides instant anti air with infested terrans
>Broodlords, if you keep them with your army they are almost unstoppable and can clear any siege line and every defense the enemy may have
Marauders, tanks, thors for Terran
>Marauders, with stim they can snipe building in a blink of the eye and also they are very good in army vs army battles as they can tank and deal a lot of damage to the standard units for team games
> Tanks, whether using them to contain or repel the enemy they are excellent if you have support with them
>Thors, actually just mech in general is really strong, take some SCVs to repair with you and it's amazing
When you play a team game make sure you think about not only what units you are getting but also what you ally is getting. If im with a terran going MMM im not going to get getting roach hydra because they have simular range and unless you engage in a wide open space most of the army will not be attacking in an engagement, so instead i'll go with lings and banelings to help, that way more of our army is attacking at once.
It's good to know the speed and range of all the main units in the game so you can compliment your allies army. If a toss goes mass blink stalker then im going to go either roach (similar speed and roaches have less range so roaches tank) or lings (if he gets blink then lings are better because of their speed, lings hold the enemy in place while stalkers shoot from a safe distance)
Just the same as when your with an ally who declaires at the start "im rushing BCs" or something simular you should be thinking, "ok, how can i keep us safe until he gets them?"
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On July 20 2011 17:58 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 17:43 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On July 20 2011 17:37 JoeAWESOME wrote:On July 20 2011 17:33 lorkac wrote:
I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
That shit seems sick, is that even possible? Do they repair the health of the stalkers? Terran just having shitloads of SCVs and money dumping in to a 6 gating blink stalker protoss Stalkers are mechanical so yes it would work. However it would be impractical because of the number of SCVs you would need for the stalkers and also bling stalkers are much more mobile the SCVs, it would be much better to have units like hellions instead of the SCVs. Although having reread what i've just written i've just realise that you could go in for an attack (blink stalker hellion) and then repair everything when you pull back to your base so you then have full health hellions and stalkers again plus extra units you should have been making the whole time What I'd love to see is an Immortal being mass repaired as he's battling a Thor.
In the words of Drewbi "Go Go Strike cannon!!"
Followed soon after by Day9 "Did you just use strike cannon to kill a command center!? ahahahaahahahahaha"
<3 ROOT (+kyle) 4v4 with Day9 watching on stream ^^
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My partner and I play random random so we've experienced most of the matchups. However both of us are terribad as terran vs not double protoss. We do prefer rush based strategies in any game where we have TX.
Non-shared base maps: ZT vPZ,PP. Always have the zerg 10 pool speed, you ALWAYS have map control, and if the protoss was doing anything greedy(DT rush, VR rush, etc) you can kill him, or cripple/kill his partner provided a few marines come along. P is absolute trash at defending partners.
ZP v ZX. Zerg HAS to pool first to protect P, along with protecting himself, Zerg should pressure the other zerg.
ZZ v XX This matchup is hard. If not double early pool, one Z has to get muta's, and usually the other infestor. A transition to Broodlord's though is a MUST because otherwise your army is not costeffective enough. Once the infestor player has enough(6-7), excess gas needs to be fed for the other player to get broods up.
PX v XX. Protoss needs to decide to either wall ramp or wall mineral line, because otherwise P loses to everything =/. Transition for Protoss should be to colossus or storm unless it's vs double zerg or ZP, in which case (double) stargate + zealot is also very good. Partner should focus on building complementing units.
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On July 20 2011 17:29 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
In all team games there are certain units which cause absolute havok.
>DTs, voidrays and phoinx for Protoss
>Mutas, lings and infestors for Zerg
>Banshees, hellions and drops (i know thats not a unit) for Terran
The reason for this is because they are all harass units, you can bounce between enemy players with them and cause mass amounts of damage, often causing the enemy to go all in and attack you head on, or pull their entire army back to deal with them.
If they are not prepared for these units then you can out right win a game with pure harass. My personal favorite is to go ling infestor with heavy upgrades and a quick hive. I personally love this because lings tank for my ally allowing him to do alot of damage when we attack. Typically my lings will die before before renforcements arrive so instead of renforcing my allies attack i will just run into the other players base while their army and attension is elsewhere.
Also infestors are soo good, even if they know you have them it's surprising how many players forget they can burrow, 2 infestors to each enemy base lobbing infested terrans to snipe nexuz/hatch/CC, when that happens at 4 bases all at once many players can not handle it and lose much more then they should, and then forget to look for the infestors hidden in their base ready to do it again.
Just to prove how good some units are in team games i played a 3v3 (yes i realise this is a 2v2 thread but it's relivent) and did a team monobattle, DT, Infestor, Marine. The DT player got rushed but managed to hold on and even though they knew what was coming and had delayed it they could not cope with the DT and Infestor harass. 2 manner Nexus and 1 manner CC ends the game ^^
In team games the general play is weaker then in 1v1 and there is alot of focus on the early rush but if that rush doesnt win the game or do serious damage then you are behind. For people saying you can't fast expand and you just one base all in to masters, that's rubish. When you come against a team as good as you if the game doesnt end in the first 10mins then prepare for an epic game. Team games are always more fun when they go into a macro game, often skipping the midgame and going headlong into the late games as players try to get their best units out "Im rushing carriers!" *facepalm*
What league?
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On July 20 2011 22:07 Penatronic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 17:29 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
In all team games there are certain units which cause absolute havok.
>DTs, voidrays and phoinx for Protoss
>Mutas, lings and infestors for Zerg
>Banshees, hellions and drops (i know thats not a unit) for Terran
The reason for this is because they are all harass units, you can bounce between enemy players with them and cause mass amounts of damage, often causing the enemy to go all in and attack you head on, or pull their entire army back to deal with them.
If they are not prepared for these units then you can out right win a game with pure harass. My personal favorite is to go ling infestor with heavy upgrades and a quick hive. I personally love this because lings tank for my ally allowing him to do alot of damage when we attack. Typically my lings will die before before renforcements arrive so instead of renforcing my allies attack i will just run into the other players base while their army and attension is elsewhere.
Also infestors are soo good, even if they know you have them it's surprising how many players forget they can burrow, 2 infestors to each enemy base lobbing infested terrans to snipe nexuz/hatch/CC, when that happens at 4 bases all at once many players can not handle it and lose much more then they should, and then forget to look for the infestors hidden in their base ready to do it again.
Just to prove how good some units are in team games i played a 3v3 (yes i realise this is a 2v2 thread but it's relivent) and did a team monobattle, DT, Infestor, Marine. The DT player got rushed but managed to hold on and even though they knew what was coming and had delayed it they could not cope with the DT and Infestor harass. 2 manner Nexus and 1 manner CC ends the game ^^
In team games the general play is weaker then in 1v1 and there is alot of focus on the early rush but if that rush doesnt win the game or do serious damage then you are behind. For people saying you can't fast expand and you just one base all in to masters, that's rubish. When you come against a team as good as you if the game doesnt end in the first 10mins then prepare for an epic game. Team games are always more fun when they go into a macro game, often skipping the midgame and going headlong into the late games as players try to get their best units out "Im rushing carriers!" *facepalm* What league?
Plat for all team games with random allies, diamond and masters for arranged teams, why?
Im just talking from experiance, i play mainly team games and those units stick out as game winners when used properly. Btw the monobattle was an arranged team in placement matches so the people we were against weren't that good :/
Edit: Also instead of posting a two word comment could you maybe add to the topic of the thread? If you disagree with something i said then explain why and put up your own thoughts as to why i am wrong and state your own reasoning for whatever you believe to be true
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Folks, don't be afraid to post your replays. 2v2 as a competitive format is basically uncharted territory, so every little bit counts.
On the new maps, can anyone from the PTR comment about them? How do they compare to the current map pool?
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yknow what might be interesting is 3 stalker rush + scv/rine, put the scvs on autorepair and position the stalkers in front to tank
actually the possibilities for protoss + repair seem quite interesting. Terran makes marines + scvs while feeding gas so protoss can make loads of VRs that get repaired when hurt.
Make reaper + blink stalker and bounce between enemies.
Bring some SCVs with every push, let your (high HP) colossi tank hits but pull them back before they die, repair them and carry on.
Mass repair a Mothership? 
Terran makes 1 barracks and walls off, maybe with a bunker, and saves up -> mass feeds the protoss at 5:00 so he can go 8gate or 7gate with upgrades.
Terran would be an amazing feeder race because they defend so easily in the first few minutes and they get the most income of any race via MULES. Also he can still make the best unit in the game, marines, without spending any gas at all.
Zerg would be a decent feeder with mass drones as well but they don't defend quite as efficiently.
And protoss is the perfect recipient of feed - can't feed until 5:00, but that's ok because warpgate usually finishes around 5:35-5:50. And actually it might be pretty viable to go forge first to be safe in the early game, and still have a giant army with upgrades as soon as warp tech finishes (6:20 or so?) thanks to getting fed.
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On July 20 2011 22:44 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 22:07 Penatronic wrote:On July 20 2011 17:29 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
In all team games there are certain units which cause absolute havok.
>DTs, voidrays and phoinx for Protoss
>Mutas, lings and infestors for Zerg
>Banshees, hellions and drops (i know thats not a unit) for Terran
The reason for this is because they are all harass units, you can bounce between enemy players with them and cause mass amounts of damage, often causing the enemy to go all in and attack you head on, or pull their entire army back to deal with them.
If they are not prepared for these units then you can out right win a game with pure harass. My personal favorite is to go ling infestor with heavy upgrades and a quick hive. I personally love this because lings tank for my ally allowing him to do alot of damage when we attack. Typically my lings will die before before renforcements arrive so instead of renforcing my allies attack i will just run into the other players base while their army and attension is elsewhere.
Also infestors are soo good, even if they know you have them it's surprising how many players forget they can burrow, 2 infestors to each enemy base lobbing infested terrans to snipe nexuz/hatch/CC, when that happens at 4 bases all at once many players can not handle it and lose much more then they should, and then forget to look for the infestors hidden in their base ready to do it again.
Just to prove how good some units are in team games i played a 3v3 (yes i realise this is a 2v2 thread but it's relivent) and did a team monobattle, DT, Infestor, Marine. The DT player got rushed but managed to hold on and even though they knew what was coming and had delayed it they could not cope with the DT and Infestor harass. 2 manner Nexus and 1 manner CC ends the game ^^
In team games the general play is weaker then in 1v1 and there is alot of focus on the early rush but if that rush doesnt win the game or do serious damage then you are behind. For people saying you can't fast expand and you just one base all in to masters, that's rubish. When you come against a team as good as you if the game doesnt end in the first 10mins then prepare for an epic game. Team games are always more fun when they go into a macro game, often skipping the midgame and going headlong into the late games as players try to get their best units out "Im rushing carriers!" *facepalm* What league? Plat for all team games with random allies, diamond and masters for arranged teams, why? Im just talking from experiance, i play mainly team games and those units stick out as game winners when used properly. Btw the monobattle was an arranged team in placement matches so the people we were against weren't that good :/ Edit: Also instead of posting a two word comment could you maybe add to the topic of the thread? If you disagree with something i said then explain why and put up your own thoughts as to why i am wrong and state your own reasoning for whatever you believe to be true
I disagree with the statement that any tech unit is great in 2v2. My partner and I thrive off of punishing such greedy techiness with rushes that they cannot possibly hold off. Protoss took double early gas? Bum-rush his partner while preparing anti-air+detection. Toss already is the weakest race in 2's before WG research finishes, why try to kill him when you can kill his partner, and then 2v1 a tech player. With good control there is no way the 1 tech player should win if you properly finished his partner and are prepared.
The only race that can get away easily with teching and defending at the same time is Terran because of bunker+scv imba =(. Even then they can die quite easily to a rush.
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I'm ok in 3v3 and 4v4 but I have problems in 2v2. As a zerg player I dont know when I should open roach or ling. The number of maps and matchup possibilities are so big. I know ZT vs ZT is sling+hellion. I do got the builds down kinda okay atleast.
Anyone got any insight?
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you'll never go wrong with slings, roaches can sometimes be good but not always. So just go sling every game until you have a better understanding.
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My current build for Zerg in 2v2 is as follows:
10 Extractor
10 Pool
10 Overlord
@Extractor 100%: Send two drones to gather gas.
@100% Pool: 3 Zerglings and then as needed.
@100 Gas: Pull drones from gas and begin Metabolic Boost
@150 Minerals: Queen
My transition depends on whether I did some damage or not. Regardless, this opening provides excellent intel, and at my level can outright kill one player. If I do a lot of damage, I immediately put down a hatchery and power drone to cement our lead.
What do you think?
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EPT
