EPTTo whoever said it above, I also don't think it's right to expand @ 15 against a PT team. Back when we used to play, I was part of a top 10 NA arranged team and we never, ever had a problem applying early pressure. The newer maps are largely smaller, even if they have expansions in-base it's not a problem to show up to your door step with 3 fast rax or 6 rax rine + zealot / sentry into stalker.
[D] The Official Unofficial 2v2 Thread - Page 7
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familyguy123
92 Posts
To whoever said it above, I also don't think it's right to expand @ 15 against a PT team. Back when we used to play, I was part of a top 10 NA arranged team and we never, ever had a problem applying early pressure. The newer maps are largely smaller, even if they have expansions in-base it's not a problem to show up to your door step with 3 fast rax or 6 rax rine + zealot / sentry into stalker. | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
New 2v2 Maps: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://us.media1.battle.net/cms/gallery/OJXVMLEVMJV31308263943593.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://us.media5.battle.net/cms/gallery/T11A882ONZJH1308263899751.jpg) I actually really like these maps despite them being shared bases because they are not impossible to attack into, also the in base natural is a nice touch, for one of the players, and should stop games like we used to see on twilight fortruss where everyone would just turtle on 2 bases and never move out -_- i haven't played any 2v2 for a while but when i do i'll be sure to post replays. Also, if there are any ZP teams out there could you post some replays, i rarely get to play with a P ally and when i do they usually do some stupid tech rush and then flame me when they get attacked Edit: Patch 1.4 will have some effect on 2v2 games, the most noticable changes for 2v2 are: Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. This will make many early rushes more difficult and also scouting a little harder as you can't see as far into the base when you send a ling/marine etc. Mothership: Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375. Motherships are more common in team games then in 1v1 so this may see mothership rushes become more popular Warp Prism: Shields increased from 40 to 100. Could we finially see drop play by Protoss? Hellion: Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. This will make ling/hellion a weaker combination for ZT teams and hopefully put an end to the ling/hellion vs ling/hellion wars in ZTvZT Ultralisk: Build time decreased from 70 to 55. Same deal with the mothership, people will get excited and rush for them Infestors, 2 changes for the infestor: 1. Infestor: Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored) 2. Neural Parasited units will now retain their weapons upgrades. This will make NP'ed colossi and tanks / thors alot more powerful, and should cause protoss to think twice before upgrading to +3 attack before even starting armor level 1. This makes FG a little weaker and NP a little stronger so expect to see infestors being used for more then just fungal growth and infested terran spam | ||
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aztecx
Australia130 Posts
On August 31 2011 20:48 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Also, if there are any ZP teams out there could you post some replays, i rarely get to play with a P ally and when i do they usually do some stupid tech rush and then flame me when they get attacked Here are a few older games that I have saved on my PC of me and my partner playing ZP. We are one of the (imo) top 3 ZP teams on the SEA server with a record of something like 150-40 last season. I don't really save any of my replays so these are all I've got. I'm not sure how much you will learn from these games since we're not doing any sort of lame all-ins, but you get to see how a top level ZP team functions and what sort of unit combination's we opt for. The top two games are against sick teams, that have my respect (which is hard to get haha). ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229293.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229292.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229290.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-214702.jpg) | ||
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Vanchen
55 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229421.jpg) Select and optikzero go for proxies but select walls in my zerg ally preventing any help to arrive. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-229422.jpg) | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
On August 31 2011 21:26 aztecx wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 31 2011 20:48 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Also, if there are any ZP teams out there could you post some replays, i rarely get to play with a P ally and when i do they usually do some stupid tech rush and then flame me when they get attacked Here are a few older games that I have saved on my PC of me and my partner playing ZP. We are one of the (imo) top 3 ZP teams on the SEA server with a record of something like 150-40 last season. I don't really save any of my replays so these are all I've got. I'm not sure how much you will learn from these games since we're not doing any sort of lame all-ins, but you get to see how a top level ZP team functions and what sort of unit combination's we opt for. The top two games are against sick teams, that have my respect (which is hard to get haha). I watched all your games last night between playing some of my own. Just some of my thought on those games Game 1 The hellion immortal push, i'd never of thought of that and was surprised you held it off with the roach gateway mix. Im not sure about the decision to go with chargelots when there were that many hellions because they just got kitted, but i see why you did it. Overall a very good game Game 2 In this game i was so busy watching the back and forth action i missed the Blue players triple expand. The only reason you won that game was the fungal storm combo destroying the red players bio leaving the tanks undefended Game 3 New ally for this game, opponents tried to cheese with a 7pool DT rush, which failed hard ^^ Game 4 Game ends with collosus broodlord! The ultimate anti ground army! A couple of questions for when your playing as a ZP team. Do you always go 2 or 3 gate robo into collosus or does it depend on the opponents races and what your ally is going for? Also, as a zerg player if im playing with a P ally what do you think the best opener is? I typically do some sort of roach rush and then either mass lings and attack or expand behind our pressure | ||
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aztecx
Australia130 Posts
On September 01 2011 18:55 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: I watched all your games last night between playing some of my own. Just some of my thought on those games Game 1 The hellion immortal push, i'd never of thought of that and was surprised you held it off with the roach gateway mix. Im not sure about the decision to go with chargelots when there were that many hellions because they just got kitted, but i see why you did it. Overall a very good game Game 2 In this game i was so busy watching the back and forth action i missed the Blue players triple expand. The only reason you won that game was the fungal storm combo destroying the red players bio leaving the tanks undefended Game 3 New ally for this game, opponents tried to cheese with a 7pool DT rush, which failed hard ^^ Game 4 Game ends with collosus broodlord! The ultimate anti ground army! A couple of questions for when your playing as a ZP team. Do you always go 2 or 3 gate robo into collosus or does it depend on the opponents races and what your ally is going for? Also, as a zerg player if im playing with a P ally what do you think the best opener is? I typically do some sort of roach rush and then either mass lings and attack or expand behind our pressure Erm i'm the zerg in all these games. Game 1 There really isn't any optimum army combination available to us at the time that can effectively hold the push, so we have to make do with roach/gw. I think maybe more spines would have worked wonders? Game 2 This is probably one of my favourite games. I feel like you can learn so much from this game about ZP in general. The reason we had such a difficult time is not because we played bad, but because the other team played very fking well. To beat them we had to use basically every trick in our book. Notice the zerg army maneuvering after the first EMP goes off on the P army to buy time. Watch how we break the terran contain. There is even that giant battle by the west xel-naga tower where I may have made a critical mistake by not helping my teammate out (or was it not a mistake?). You can learn so much more if you really pay attention to the finer details, and try to understand the logic behind all our actions. I know it's hard through a replay, but there is a lot more to the game than just pressing buttons to build a bunch of units and then a-moving in the direction of your enemy base We do have a number of different openings, but our main style of play is very passive and responsive and focuses on my teammate teching to collo. The reason being is that his 1-base collo is absolutely BEAST, and that plus our ability to defend *almost* all early pressure together makes it a very viable strat. I don't think it is something that you want to do in 2v2r though because I highly doubt you'll be able to find anyone short of a top-10 player that will be able to pull it off. Anyone can tech to 1-base collo, but whether or not they can defend an early all-in while doing it is another story. Zerg openings for ZP 8p - If P is going to cage. 10p - There is almost no reason to do this build unless your teammate is going for some form of cheese play (proxy 10/10, OL warp play) and you need map control + aggression. 13p 13g - Do this against any team that has a Z, unless a later pool is scouted, in which case taking an extra drone and going 14p is optimum. This build is basically the same as a 10p, just lings and speed are out a tiny bit later. The 3 extra drones give you so much more income and increase your versatility by a SHIT load. 14p 14g (or 14g 14p) - Use this against any team that doesn't have a zerg. I understand that the norm these days is 14g 14p which I think is fine. The reason I like to 13p 13g against any Z team is because the lings come out just in time to defend most early pools (in particular 10p). My advise to you if you're playing zerg in 2v2r is to base your strategy on what your teammate is doing. For example, if your teammate decides to 4g, then go ling/bling all-in. If your teammate says that he is going blink stalkers, then either ling/bling or sling expo with plenty of lings to help the stalkers. If your teammate wants to go 3g robo and quick tech to collo, then think about getting roaches since they're really good fodder. The reason I say base your opening on your teammate is that Zerg is a supportive race in 2v2. Your goal should be through synergy to amplify the effectiveness of your teammates opening. Why not just go ling/bling and ask your teammate to 4gate for an easy win? Because one thing I have learned through hundreds of 2v2r games is to NEVER ask your teammate to do anything they're not 100% comfortable with. It is best to just let them do what they're best at, and compliment them through your play. I have played with masters players on both NA and SEA who can't even 4gate properly, yet alone execute a build order more complicated than a 4g. There are obviously some good players around, and once you figure out who they are there is nothing stopping you from executing more complicated strategies in a game of 2v2r. | ||
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Crysack
Australia94 Posts
On August 30 2011 15:56 aztecx wrote: we had a lot of trouble holding GnSsssk and his tm's 4g + ling/bling all in Really? Honestly, I don't think we've lost to GnSsssk and his team-mate yet - although, they seem to switch up between all three races so I'm not entirely sure whether we've faced their ZP combination. | ||
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aztecx
Australia130 Posts
On September 02 2011 12:17 Crysack wrote: Really? Honestly, I don't think we've lost to GnSsssk and his team-mate yet - although, they seem to switch up between all three races so I'm not entirely sure whether we've faced their ZP combination. Well that's not really saying much. Do you play ZP as well? | ||
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Crysack
Australia94 Posts
On September 02 2011 13:52 aztecx wrote: Well that's not really saying much. Do you play ZP as well? No, we play TP - which is undoubtedly stronger on defence. | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
On September 02 2011 03:23 aztecx wrote: Erm i'm the zerg in all these games. Game 1 There really isn't any optimum army combination available to us at the time that can effectively hold the push, so we have to make do with roach/gw. I think maybe more spines would have worked wonders? Game 2 This is probably one of my favourite games. I feel like you can learn so much from this game about ZP in general. The reason we had such a difficult time is not because we played bad, but because the other team played very fking well. To beat them we had to use basically every trick in our book. Notice the zerg army maneuvering after the first EMP goes off on the P army to buy time. Watch how we break the terran contain. There is even that giant battle by the west xel-naga tower where I may have made a critical mistake by not helping my teammate out (or was it not a mistake?). You can learn so much more if you really pay attention to the finer details, and try to understand the logic behind all our actions. I know it's hard through a replay, but there is a lot more to the game than just pressing buttons to build a bunch of units and then a-moving in the direction of your enemy base We do have a number of different openings, but our main style of play is very passive and responsive and focuses on my teammate teching to collo. The reason being is that his 1-base collo is absolutely BEAST, and that plus our ability to defend *almost* all early pressure together makes it a very viable strat. I don't think it is something that you want to do in 2v2r though because I highly doubt you'll be able to find anyone short of a top-10 player that will be able to pull it off. Anyone can tech to 1-base collo, but whether or not they can defend an early all-in while doing it is another story. Zerg openings for ZP 8p - If P is going to cage. 10p - There is almost no reason to do this build unless your teammate is going for some form of cheese play (proxy 10/10, OL warp play) and you need map control + aggression. 13p 13g - Do this against any team that has a Z, unless a later pool is scouted, in which case taking an extra drone and going 14p is optimum. This build is basically the same as a 10p, just lings and speed are out a tiny bit later. The 3 extra drones give you so much more income and increase your versatility by a SHIT load. 14p 14g (or 14g 14p) - Use this against any team that doesn't have a zerg. I understand that the norm these days is 14g 14p which I think is fine. The reason I like to 13p 13g against any Z team is because the lings come out just in time to defend most early pools (in particular 10p). My advise to you if you're playing zerg in 2v2r is to base your strategy on what your teammate is doing. For example, if your teammate decides to 4g, then go ling/bling all-in. If your teammate says that he is going blink stalkers, then either ling/bling or sling expo with plenty of lings to help the stalkers. If your teammate wants to go 3g robo and quick tech to collo, then think about getting roaches since they're really good fodder. The reason I say base your opening on your teammate is that Zerg is a supportive race in 2v2. Your goal should be through synergy to amplify the effectiveness of your teammates opening. Why not just go ling/bling and ask your teammate to 4gate for an easy win? Because one thing I have learned through hundreds of 2v2r games is to NEVER ask your teammate to do anything they're not 100% comfortable with. It is best to just let them do what they're best at, and compliment them through your play. I have played with masters players on both NA and SEA who can't even 4gate properly, yet alone execute a build order more complicated than a 4g. There are obviously some good players around, and once you figure out who they are there is nothing stopping you from executing more complicated strategies in a game of 2v2r. I thought that you were the Zerg tbh until i watched game 3 because that had a different Z player but the same P ^^ Thanks for the amazing advice, i did notice in the second game where you moved your army after the EMP to block, i guess i just got a bit too fixated on the fungal + storm moments destroying the larger terran armies. And yes, they were both playing VERY well, i really thought you wouldn't win when they had the contain ^^ Im plat for 2v2r atm something like 12th in my devision and alot of the players i get put with will not say a word while playing so i have to try and guess what they're going for by watching their build order and placement :/ no exactly ideal. You also get the players who want to FE or fast tech leaving me to try and defend a 2v1 because they have zero army. I usually either 11p or 14g14p, i think i might start going 13g13p from now on though. I also like to play very passive in 1v1 game, absorbing the punches and then snapping necks when the push a little too hard. One thing i did notice after watching all your games is that neither of you really harassed the opponents, is your goal to just get a supperior army and eco to win games? I tend to do a fair bit of harass while building an army, baneling drops in the mineral line, burrowed infestors for IT and FG, ling run bys. I only use units which i already have the tech for so im not cutting into my army massively by harassing. In alot of army battles that i remember unless our combined army is bigger i tend to find that my army will die MUCH quicker then my allies despite better upgrades and possitioning, is that just the way it should be, zerg providing the meat shield while protoss deals the damage? On a side note For anyone interested in 2v2 and wants to play for more then just ladder points, check this blog out and give the guy some feedback. He's thinking about hosting a regular online tourniment and wants to hear from the 2v2 community. I believe he's on the NA server but theres nothing stopping these events from happening on the other servers as well. | ||
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aztecx
Australia130 Posts
On September 02 2011 16:16 Crysack wrote: No, we play TP - which is undoubtedly stronger on defence. It has nothing to do with TP being stronger in defense. What I was saying is that their opening is pretty much the hard-counter to what we do. The reason I used them as an example is because until you are versing a team that is comparable in skill, you can't really tell if what you are doing is working or you're just playing shit players. We can defend the same build executed by a weaker team because of the difference in skill, but once that skill plateau's between teams the game becomes far more build-order oriented. On paper, I don't think our build should be able to win verse theirs. The only reason I'll go into so much detail about or strats is that I don't think we'll be playing 2v2 on the SEA server again since it's so dead and the teams are so shit. Last season both my ZP teams (Droneinabox and ToRqC/CheeseKing) had an average wait of 15-20 mins while my team with Phunnat had an average wait of around 25mins for a game. Looking at the 2v2 ladder right now it seems that it is even more dead than before so fuck waiting 30 mins to spend 5 minutes curb stomping some 'masters' noobs. | ||
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Ulumulu
Germany10 Posts
Like Speedling + Reapers were deadly some patches ago. Speedling + Helion nearly does the same job. They are super mobile and a perfect counter to everything available in the early stage of the game. Same goes for 2Rax Rauders + Speedling - Protoss wall? np for early Rauders with vision by overlords. And did u ever try to engage a lategame force of T&Z? Broodlords, supported by tanks and ravens with point defense drones + infestors? srsly i dont get the point of this matchup ^^ | ||
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locopuyo
United States143 Posts
On September 03 2011 05:05 Ulumulu wrote: well.. 2on2 is great fun, but in master league our Zerg/Protoss team dont stand a chance vs Terran/Zerg teams. Like Speedling + Reapers were deadly some patches ago. Speedling + Helion nearly does the same job. They are super mobile and a perfect counter to everything available in the early stage of the game. Same goes for 2Rax Rauders + Speedling - Protoss wall? np for early Rauders with vision by overlords. And did u ever try to engage a lategame force of T&Z? Broodlords, supported by tanks and ravens with point defense drones + infestors? srsly i dont get the point of this matchup ^^ I can see how this is hard to hold on split base maps but do you have trouble with it on shared base maps as well? | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6214 Posts
On September 02 2011 20:43 aztecx wrote: It has nothing to do with TP being stronger in defense. What I was saying is that their opening is pretty much the hard-counter to what we do. The reason I used them as an example is because until you are versing a team that is comparable in skill, you can't really tell if what you are doing is working or you're just playing shit players. We can defend the same build executed by a weaker team because of the difference in skill, but once that skill plateau's between teams the game becomes far more build-order oriented. On paper, I don't think our build should be able to win verse theirs. The only reason I'll go into so much detail about or strats is that I don't think we'll be playing 2v2 on the SEA server again since it's so dead and the teams are so shit. Last season both my ZP teams (Droneinabox and ToRqC/CheeseKing) had an average wait of 15-20 mins while my team with Phunnat had an average wait of around 25mins for a game. Looking at the 2v2 ladder right now it seems that it is even more dead than before so fuck waiting 30 mins to spend 5 minutes curb stomping some 'masters' noobs. Pretty unfortunate that this dude got himself banned for what was apparently some kind of kellymilkies sex-blog. I was actually really enjoying his analysis. Just goes to show. | ||
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Crysack
Australia94 Posts
On September 05 2011 11:48 Belisarius wrote: Pretty unfortunate that this dude got himself banned for what was apparently some kind of kellymilkies sex-blog. I was actually really enjoying his analysis. Just goes to show. Honestly, I wasn't going to mention it, but I've run into this guy several times on ladder, and all I've seen from him is roach-rushing and then abuse towards his team-mate when he loses. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6214 Posts
Any other helpful top masters PZs out there that aren't going to get themselves perma'd? lol. | ||
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Crysack
Australia94 Posts
On September 05 2011 14:56 Belisarius wrote: Fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised to find he's a bit of a tool, but I did feel like he was making a pretty constructive contribution to this thread. The replays he posted show he can at least do things other than roach rush. Any other helpful top masters PZs out there that aren't going to get themselves perma'd? lol. Well, I just started up a new PZ team with a friend, but we're only in Diamond as yet, since we just finished our placements. We did, however, come up with a somewhat interesting 1/1 blink stalker/roach/ling timing attack by accident last night which absolutely rolled two Masters zergs. | ||
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Ulumulu
Germany10 Posts
On September 03 2011 07:13 locopuyo wrote: I can see how this is hard to hold on split base maps but do you have trouble with it on shared base maps as well? On shared bases we can hold the first pressure the most time, but keep in mind that i have to use all my chronoboost for 2gate stalkers, mb cut some probes - My zergmate isnt able to secure an expansion on most maps. On the other hand we got the terran with an booming eco, superior tech (mb banshee cloak on the way) and helions in dropships. Enemy zerg got his expansion for sure. Kinda hard to come back from here. | ||
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Oo.Eristina
Switzerland4 Posts
I'm playing this combo too(#1 in my division master), and I find it very strong. Here is my point of view about 2v2 : If there's a zerg (zz, zt or zp), it's all about early game and micro. Some people were talking about speedlings/hellion, I were struggling vs this until I went for 11 gate into 4 gate (you skip zealot to do a normal 4 gate but it comes sooner, 10-15~sec, so in time for hellion). Then its just about wall, on common map i can wall the entrance or I just do a nexus wall and finish it with the 4 gate and my stalker. Then I don't agree with post earlier, when you have 4 warpgate with stalker and baneling protecting you (or roaches), your counter push finish the game before tank or banshee. (as long as you dont lose stalker and increase your army while pokeing its just a matter of time until you win (and here's the main role of zerg -> protect stalker with baneling, I see many zerg going all the way agressive with baneling and everytime we win against them, because i just focus them down and poke while increasing our army until final clash)). Then about mirror match, I saw some people talking about 3gate robo or macro or shit like that. Excuse me, but if you look at the state of PvP it's : small ramp ? you can hold 4g without doing 4g (with 3 and then tech). big ramp ? 4g. Look taldarim pvp, try to do somethings else than 4g and you'll lose. But we're in 2v2 so if you do that, your teammate is alone 1v2 and is destroyed then it's 1v2. So there's nothing more effective than 4g/ling baneling IMO (if they photons or anything you can just go ahead in macro and tech, or just break it with bust). The only problem for me is macro game vs T/X, tank/marine + anythings is so strong if you don't have a economy edge or smthing like that. yeah you can do broodlords, but well how do you protect broodlords ? you don't have vickings. Atm the only solution we have found is some kind of dt contain into macro advantage and colossus/corruptor or blink stalker/infestor, but if they turtle and wait for deathball  | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
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