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I thought I'd start a thread to discuss 2v2 strategies and tactics, not having found one recent enough to bump. Team games are often dismissed by many as being firmly in the realm of casual play, and this notion is not far from the truth. Be it the inconvenience of needing more players per game, or the chance of having bad allies, or having an old machine that's not good enough to handle more than 1v1, many don't bother with team games at all.
This is quite a shame since team games provide an entirely new experience for 1v1 aficionados. It is simultaneous more and less stressful than 1v1, as you might be paired up with bad allies or vice-versa, where your teammates carry you to victory. I am not advocating abandoning 1v1 altogether, but I find that playing team games every now and then keeps the game interesting.
As the thread title suggests, this thread will focus on 2v2 play, with a slant towards RT (random team) 2v2. Basically, 2v2 is the most balanced team format, and as of Season 3, the only team format that will be competitively balanced by Blizzard, who considers 3v3 and 4v4 as purely casual formats.
Here's an incomplete list of differences between 1v1 and 2v2.
1. Team games encourage aggressive openings, even on "fortress" maps (shared base maps). This is not to say that whoever attacks first wins, but going for a fast expansion or a fast tech will leave you or your partner vulnerable to a double rush.
2. Mobility is much more important than in 1v1. In 1v1, if your opponent goes for muta harass, you have to build missile turrets, cannons, or spore crawlers. In 2v2, if just one of your opponents goes for muta harass, both you and your partners must build AA defenses, because if only one base is defended, your opponent can move his mutas to attack the other one.
3. Teams are rewarded for specialization. You can get away with building only a small variety of units, letting your partner cover for your weaknesses. For example, a team with two Terrans can save money on research and upgrades by switching to Geico having one go MMM and the other go mech. This lets the team get 3-3 infantry and mech in half the time compared to when both build balanced armies.
4. For some arcane reason, quickmatch pairs up random teams with arranged teams. Blizzard has been very evasive about this issue, posting vague replies on the official forums whenever the RT vs. AT issue is brought up. However, RT players and AT players are ranked in separate ladders.
5. Terran goes well with everything. Think muta harass is annoying? Try muta harass backed up by medivacs (yes, medivacs can heal all Zerg units). Or perhaps you'd like cannon rushing with mass repair? >
Edit: Protoss buildings are NOT mechanical, which means they cannot be repaired by SCVs.
I have to cook dinner now, so I'll post more later. Maybe some replays of my noobish self pwning even bigger noobs than me? Or maybe we can get some Masters to post their replays?
Note to Self: Post pics of the map pool, including the new PTR maps later.
Alright, start discussing 2v2. Go!
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I enjoy 2v2 every now and again You can just both 1 base all in to Masters though
Rushing with 2 probes and 2 SCVs or something similar is fun Probes are mechanical, so OP!
Hellion zergling, hellion stalker, or hellion MM is probably strongest opening from my pov as Terran. Obviously would have to adjust a bit against banshee / stargate openings with hellion zergling ^^
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And I'm back. Dinner was nice. Since nobody has posted any replays yet, I thought I'd post some of mine for critique. Please forgive my Platinum scrubbiness.
In this game, the enemy Zerg player goes for a very greedy build, eschewing early game aggression for an economic payoff that never happens. As I mentioned in my OP, greedy openings are suicidal because they leave your partner in a 2v1 fight against the enemy team. Our opponents simply did not have enough units to repel our double rush.
Another replay from this Platinum scrub. My ally tells me that he's going for MMM, and I play with the assumption that I'll have a decent bioball to protect my fragile colossi. However, my ally decides to get a little each of a large variety of units, greatly diluting his army's effectiveness. When you have a little bit of MMM, and a little bit of mech, you won't have enough for a critical mass against the enemy team. Had he stuck to MMM, abusing its mobility for drops while leaving the base-breaking to me, we might've had a chance.
Again, critique is welcome. I wish to improve.
A rather one-sided game where my team double rushes the player who didn't bother to wall off. This game shows how much harder it is to defend than to attack in team games, because if your team is on defense, both players' bases must be defended, while if you're on the attack, you concentrate your firepower on one with weaker defenses.
Then again, Monlyth Ridge is a terrible, terrible map since the ramps point towards the enemy, making it that much harder to wall off your team's side of the map.
This game shows the power of specialization. Marines have good dps but are extremely fragile, while zerglings have good dps and survivability for their price but have difficulty getting close to the enemy. Combine the two, and you have a powerful combination. The zerglings tank for the fragile marines, who can let loose their DPS to wtfpwn the enemy. Our team's highly mobile and specialized unit composition of zergling, marine, medivac, and mutalisk were quite effective against the enemy's nonspecialized army.
Thank you in advance for your critique. I'll be back tomorrow.
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Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
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Hmm this could be an interesting thread as I play a fair bit of 2v2.
I'll provide some replays perhaps when I get home .
Nuking is fun in 2v2.
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On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Thing is P has a tough time in the 2v2 early game and can't really afford to slow down his BO by spending the extra 75mins early. You also have to share control with your ally for this to work, and if you play random 2v2's this is usually unwise ><
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One of my favorite things to do in 2v2 is coordinated army movements, flanking, pinchers, etc. Sometimes you're blessed with a good partner, who knows it's not just 1a-click.
I usually do PPvXX, I like doing gas light builds, imms + zealots and feeding gas to my buddy going for a DT rush or voids. One player doing a ridiculously strong ground force, while the other takes care of the air seems to do very well.
I love when my ally notices that I have just moved my army to a point behind their army and frantically 'b's me.
I would disagree that 2v2 encourages aggression any more then 1v1. In 2v2 one player can reasonably tech a bit while the other builds armies. By the time the opponent gets there, you have the advantage, either with some extra tech or because it takes an extra production cycle to move from base to base.
In 1v1 I'm maniacally more aggro, because it's a limited set of possibilities. As you add players, complexity rises exponentially, so the costs of taking risks, like attacking, have far greater consequences.
The single greatest rule for 2v2, keep your armies close to each other.
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I don't think its possible to take random 2v2 seriously and not end up hating yourself, hating the game, hating all of humanity and hating life in general. The possibility for shitty teammates causing you to lose to even shittier opponents is too high.
When I play random 2v2 its just for warmup or when I want to practise a 1v1 build and don't want to do so in 1v1 or a build order tester.
However, it CAN be a fun way to play with an arranged teammate.
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On July 19 2011 06:14 Eternal Dalek wrote:5. Terran goes well with everything. Think muta harass is annoying? Try muta harass backed up by medivacs (yes, medivacs can heal all Zerg units). Or perhaps you'd like cannon rushing with mass repair? > I'm fairly certain Protoss buildings can't be repaired, only units
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On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone. Can you mine from an allies geyser?
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So I play terran for 2v2, and been doing a fast hellion build into blue flame. My partner usually does a 14/14 mass speedling. My build goes like this:
10 depot 12 refinery 13 barracks 16 factory (when barracks finishes) 16 marine 17 orbital command 17 depot 17 reactor (on barracks when marine finishes) 17 hellion
the hellion and reactor should finish close to the same time, after which you switch the factory and the barracks (the factory now has the reactor on it). From here, constantly make hellions.
At the next 100 gas you build another factory, and then a tech lab on your barracks, unless you scout something requiring a transition. Switch the factory on to the tech lab when both are finished, and get blue flame.
This build gives you map control for a while, and against protoss opponents, terran who move out of their base, or zerg who don't go roach from the beginning of the game, you often can simply kill an opponent. Protoss opponents are particularly vulnerable. This build does not work well against shared bases, or enemies who go for fast roaches or fast siege tanks or fast air (banshees / voidrays) so you will need to scout with initial lings, and then pressure with speedlings/hellions to scout. ZP teams where the zerg player goes for speedlings almost always lose to this, PP teams are also very vulnerable, though preparing to transition into marauders is advisable, as toss will often respond with mass blink stalkers.
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I do really hate 2v2 and its strategies and style. I also think the overall level (besides a few teams) in 2v2 is insanely low.. I don't know why that is, but 2v2 games seem so messy. :S
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On July 19 2011 11:55 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone. Thing is P has a tough time in the 2v2 early game and can't really afford to slow down his BO by spending the extra 75mins early. You also have to share control with your ally for this to work, and if you play random 2v2's this is usually unwise ><
Also it delays your scout or costs you more mining time to send a probe all the way to their base.
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I like the concept of looking more in depth into a format of play that has been dismissed as casual but is now getting some recognition even among pro players. Just as a beginning, and I hope to keep an eye on this thread as 2v2 happens to be very enjoyable to me, I hope to lay out a few basic concepts much like Eternal Dalek, the OP.
The concept of early aggression is changed unless your base is VERY close to your partners seeing as most early attacks, even up through the 7:30 mark, present simply too many troops for one player to effectively repel unless they have made nothing but supreme and "excessive" defense. Not only is communication important, being able to meet each others weaknesses and compliment each others strengths matter not only in unit composition, but in the timings of the game. (Zerg have a very strong middle game after getting a second/third base running, but suffer in matched 200/200 battles for example) Mass Zerglings become infinitely better as throwaway units when Ghosts can EMP the shields off most Protoss units in a fight and fairly "free" units can mop up a seemingly difficult force as little cost to the Terran.
I and others could give more examples, but that was just the "team" sort of focus.
Moving on, it is a point of note that most maps to happen to have fairly easily taken second bases, but 3rd bases are usually in great danger or easily scouted unless the map is enormous. This means that races that work better off of two bases, such as Protoss, do have a bit of an advantage compared to Zerg players, who want at least one base more than their foes. This means riskier expanding, making your expansions a "hard point" with a great deal of defense there, such as a Terran third with a Planetary Fortress and Turrets, or learning to work off of less bases than you might in single player for timing attacks and even playing your race a little differently.
Map control is almost more important than it is in 1v1. Knowing when an enormous deathball is coming that you alone cannot defeat might be even more important than catching a push late and being able to fight it off with reinforcements. Speedlings, Phoenix, Mutas, Vikings, Scans, a great deal of Observers on attack paths, all of these are paramount to surviving. As an addendum, Xel'Naga towers, depending on the map, can be almost useless or the key to the game. Keep an eye on what they DON'T reveal, and make sure you cover for it as most 2v2 maps are significantly larger than 1v1.
Now, these might seem like redundant points, but they are very important in 2v2. I'm just saying. On top of that, I play from a Zerg perspective, so trying to base up while having a little harass is important, but rush distances tend to lead things into slightly longer games or heavy double attacks at 8 minutes or so. Actually extending the game is usually the best way to win. Fighting off that attack with your partner between 5 and 10 minutes means you stopped the thing the other players were trying to do. I know it's much the same as fighting off a rush in 1v1, but the 2nd death rattle push can still kill you in 2v2 if both players hit you. The point is to either kill them early, and if not, survive until they are not used to the concept of being harassed by a number of different things at the same time without map control on two bases right before facing a 300 or 400 unit deathball.
Finally (in this post as I hope to keep an eye out here) Cheese is wildly ineffective in 2v2. You can have one player grab a detector and make Banshees or DT's useless while the other player continues building. Perhaps a double cheese-rush might work against 1 player, but odds are they will see it and drop a bunker or a few spines or have their partner there to defend too.
Just some thoughts, I would love to see what comes up from this thread outside of "Oh, I do this with my buddy and we win tons when we attack at 7:00"
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On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone. Can you mine from an allies geyser? Yes you can.
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On July 19 16:43FreedonNadd wrote On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Can you mine from an allies geyser?
Yes you can.
Not if they already laid down an extractor/assimilator/refinery. But yeah, like any other open geyser you can claim it. In 2v2 you can also give each other resources after 4-5 minutes I believe, so if you need alot of gas for High Templar, or Cloaked Banshees, of Mutalisks, your partner can send you a bunch to help you pump out more units of a certain type than you might be able to otherwise. This is great for early Muta harass for example where they might be scared off early when they cannot fight a handful of Marines or a Cannon, but if you were gifted 500 gas I'm sure you can find 5 more Mutas very powerful at 8 minutes when it is common to only see 4-8. This means your partner might be able to focus very strongly on Marines or Zealots to defend on the ground when you have air-control and with minerals you might be able to donate to them.
In the beta phases of the game there was a Protoss and Terran 2v2 strategy started that involved letting the Terran grab all 3 bases (Their main and the two expansions) and ramp up their Mules with 6-gas and walling off until transferring everything over to a Protoss player who had made cannons and Stargates until they had a VERY fast 200/200 Void Ray/Carrier army which is usually deadly let alone around 15 Minutes.
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I love 2v2. I find playing with friends is far more interesting than playing 1v1.
One of the things I've learned in 2v2 is that there is no such thing as overreacting. In 1v1, people are loathe to even put down one spine crawler or one cannon. In 2v2, put down 5 and it's still worth it. Most longer 2v2's are won on the 3rd base, since the 2nd base is usually quite easy to get. I would not mind putting 5-10 cannons at the 3rd, because that means they cannot kill it with a marauding force (like speedling or a drop), but need to move their main army to do so. This means that they may be out of position or engage in a poor spot. With so much AoE damage and DPS from 2 players, being slightly out of position means that you die very rapidly.
One thing I hate, as protoss, are the maps that you cannot wall with gate/core/zealot. This is just a complete crapshoot in that I'm trying my best to simcity my base and die as slowly as possible - and that is a skill in itself.
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Coming from a team games background (TF2, WoW, GW etc) I really enjoy the 2v2 aspect of SC, but wish it was a greater part of the competitive scene, as coordination between players is something that adds a whole level of depth to any game.Having said that, what would be required for 2v2 to become a real competitive bracket?
Some ideas:
1. Maps: in order to shift the 2v2 game away from cheese, and games ending on 2 base, maps need to be larger, with more defensible early positions as well. Just as maps like Terminus have shifted the 1v1 scene away from the cheese of DQ, I feel that 2v2 can be made into a more macro oriented bracket by map selection for game balance. I'm currently considering making a massive 2v2 map with fortress design to the extreme, with one narrow ramp and in base seconds for each player to make cheese less common, and encourage long games.
2. Prizes: I only know of a handful of tournaments that have a real 2v2 prize, and nothing comes close to what 1v1 players can expect for their efforts. Money draws players more than anything else, so hopefully eventually money will start to encourage 2v2. It certainly does have the potential, as the tactics possible are much grander and the fights often much bigger than in 1v1.
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Folks, less theorycrafting, more replay posting and watching. Anyone have comments on my uploaded games?
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I agree 2v2 definitely has a lot of potential. There's a lot of strategy's that haven't even been explored to the fullest yet like feeding.
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I just had the worst streak of bad allies today. Going through my replays, I see the main reason for the losing streak: Communication, or the lack thereof.
Since this is new ground for most players here, I'm going to talk about communication in team games, specifically, the hotkeys for facilitating good coordination.
Enter - In 1v1 and in FFA, this defaults to Send to All. In team games, pressing Enter defaults to Send to Allies. This should be pretty obvious, but I've been in games where my ally never says anything during the game, only using the chat function to blame me when we lose.
Shift + Enter - Send to All. Useful for saying "gl hf" at the beginning of a game.
Alt + G - Minimap ping. A good amount of 1v1 players are surprisingly unaware of this hotkey, as evidenced by the last game I played. My ally sends his army in without telling me about it or pinging the minimap. He then blames me for being too passive that the enemy team has taken full map control.
When I look at his profile, I see that he is actually a Diamond-level player in 1v1, so he is at least somewhat decent at the game. We were both much better than our opponents, but our lack of communication lost us the game.
In another game, where I'm in a PZ team, my ally retreats without telling me or signaling me through a ping, causing me to lose a significant chunk of my army to a 2v1 engagement. The annoying part was that we had a slight advantage that he completely threw away by retreating.
Shared Control - Not a hotkey, but in the upper-rightmost corner of the screen, there is a tiny button which pulls up the diplomacy screen (that's what it's called in most RTS games, don't know what it's called in Starcraft 2). It shows a list of players in the game as well as their chosen races, in case you weren't paying attention to the loading screen. It also lets you share or revoke control for your allies.
The main advantage of shared control is that a single mind can coordinate the entire team's army more fluidly than two. For example, a PP team where one player goes for zealots and the other stalkers, sharing control will allow one player to coordinate the zealots and the stalkers much more effectively than two players have to type or talk to each other to charge forward or retreat.
In my last game, I was in a PP team, and I told my ally to train blink stalkers while I trained chargelots. I tell him that I have given him control of my units so he can use my zealots with his stalkers. As mentioned above, he moves into battle without telling me or sending my zealots in, and he blames me for the loss shortly before ragequitting.
So yeah, I had a bad day today. However, if I give up now, 2v2 will get that much worse, so I will forge on.
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So. Autolose FE: that was more in the vein of a weak zerg player and no wallin (plus a weak toss player) rather then a loss to a rush due to BO. The zerg had 600 mins, the toss 400/200 in the FE one vs your 200 mins as zerg and your allies low the whole time AKA it was a macro win not a BO win.
The double 2 gate was because the other terran player didn't wall in. If facing a zerg or PP you have to wall in. It's actually easier to defend imo if you just use solid builds. Solid builds can both defend and put aggression back. TT and TP are the only ones you don't wall in.
Lack of specialization: that wasn't due to lack of specialization at all. I would place it squarely on macro and giving away free units. Look at Teal, the other team's terran. He did a near identical comp and just had position plus unit count on you due to macro. He didn't leak units at all. Played defensively and built up an army of death while blue made blunder after blunder eventually saccing his whole army in a charge for the zerg main (don't go for mains, cut off expansions). He denied the zerg base, should've controlled the top and encroached on the zerg natural pressuring from the north while dropping from behind.
Specialization: this one is the only one I can agree to. Mobility can mean a lot. Marine ling is strong because it's early, it's fast and it combines melee/ranged. They left really early though. The game was even. Workers, food count. You don't need 2 people to go mobile though, just one. The other should generally go for a more stable muscular army, because otherwise they can just turtle and then push winning the game. For example, TT one goes bio other goes mech.
I wouldn't take these replays as an indication of what should and shouldn't happen in 2v2 (except for the specialization one). Macro and tactical choices/position are what lost these games not strategy or unit comps.
I mean FEs can work, depending on the map and matchup plus scouting information. Z vs non-zerg the zerg can comfortably FE. It's risky for T or P to FE though. You'd need to scout a non-rush (still can be 1 base though) build and have a decent map to hold comfortably. FE into mass marine leads into a similar unit count to 3 rax by 7 minutes, just with a slightly later stim. If the FE is left untouched and your ally dies you can 1v2 as well, just need to take a 3rd relatively soon and outmacro. If facing a zerg, you can FE only as zerg if you can match overall unit count. Say 15 hatch vs 14 pool would be okay if you know he's going lings to pump lings yourself, but 10 pool would punish you. More often then not, 1 base timing is the way to go though. You don't need to rush every game either, I generally do a 7 minute timing push for either tanks or bio.
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The maps are a huge issue.
Blizzard has to add size and balance to the ladder maps. Some maps are too favored for aggressive teams. (gutterhulk) and some maps are too favored for turtling teams (Scorched Haven, Ruins of Tarsonis. (One guy can wall, other guy can tech).
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On July 19 2011 23:38 Cracked wrote: I love 2v2. I find playing with friends is far more interesting than playing 1v1.
One of the things I've learned in 2v2 is that there is no such thing as overreacting. In 1v1, people are loathe to even put down one spine crawler or one cannon. In 2v2, put down 5 and it's still worth it. Most longer 2v2's are won on the 3rd base, since the 2nd base is usually quite easy to get. I would not mind putting 5-10 cannons at the 3rd, because that means they cannot kill it with a marauding force (like speedling or a drop), but need to move their main army to do so. This means that they may be out of position or engage in a poor spot. With so much AoE damage and DPS from 2 players, being slightly out of position means that you die very rapidly.
One thing I hate, as protoss, are the maps that you cannot wall with gate/core/zealot. This is just a complete crapshoot in that I'm trying my best to simcity my base and die as slowly as possible - and that is a skill in itself.
I have to disagree a little with the overreaction bit... If I make 5 mutas and only kill 4 workers and a pylon, but they overreact and make 5 turrets/cannons each, those mutas did a ton more eco damage than you'd think.... Same as 1v1 except you can force greater reaction. One player going cloaked banshee or dt or muta forces both players on the opposing team to get detection or static defense (not 100% of the time but often), so they end up doing 2x as much damage as they would in a 1v1.
Also, there's a few comments about maps being too rush favored or not enough shared base... Read blizzards release on season 3 maps. They are addressing this very issue, and consider 2's a competitive format, since statistically good players play 1's and sometimes 2's but rarely 3's and 4's. They are making more shared base maps in 2's while keeping 3's and 4's maps varied/more casual. Seems like the same progression that happened in wc3 but never in bw.
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In all team games there are certain units which cause absolute havok. >DTs, voidrays and phoinx for Protoss >Mutas, lings and infestors for Zerg >Banshees, hellions and drops (i know thats not a unit) for Terran
The reason for this is because they are all harass units, you can bounce between enemy players with them and cause mass amounts of damage, often causing the enemy to go all in and attack you head on, or pull their entire army back to deal with them.
If they are not prepared for these units then you can out right win a game with pure harass. My personal favorite is to go ling infestor with heavy upgrades and a quick hive. I personally love this because lings tank for my ally allowing him to do alot of damage when we attack. Typically my lings will die before before renforcements arrive so instead of renforcing my allies attack i will just run into the other players base while their army and attension is elsewhere.
Also infestors are soo good, even if they know you have them it's surprising how many players forget they can burrow, 2 infestors to each enemy base lobbing infested terrans to snipe nexuz/hatch/CC, when that happens at 4 bases all at once many players can not handle it and lose much more then they should, and then forget to look for the infestors hidden in their base ready to do it again.
Just to prove how good some units are in team games i played a 3v3 (yes i realise this is a 2v2 thread but it's relivent) and did a team monobattle, DT, Infestor, Marine. The DT player got rushed but managed to hold on and even though they knew what was coming and had delayed it they could not cope with the DT and Infestor harass. 2 manner Nexus and 1 manner CC ends the game ^^
In team games the general play is weaker then in 1v1 and there is alot of focus on the early rush but if that rush doesnt win the game or do serious damage then you are behind. For people saying you can't fast expand and you just one base all in to masters, that's rubish. When you come against a team as good as you if the game doesnt end in the first 10mins then prepare for an epic game. Team games are always more fun when they go into a macro game, often skipping the midgame and going headlong into the late games as players try to get their best units out "Im rushing carriers!" *facepalm*
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I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
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On July 20 2011 17:33 lorkac wrote: I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
That shit seems sick, is that even possible? Do they repair the health of the stalkers?
Terran just having shitloads of SCVs and money dumping in to a 6 gating blink stalker protoss
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On July 20 2011 17:37 JoeAWESOME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 17:33 lorkac wrote: I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
That shit seems sick, is that even possible? Do they repair the health of the stalkers? Terran just having shitloads of SCVs and money dumping in to a 6 gating blink stalker protoss
Stalkers are mechanical so yes it would work. However it would be impractical because of the number of SCVs you would need for the stalkers and also bling stalkers are much more mobile the SCVs, it would be much better to have units like hellions instead of the SCVs.
Although having reread what i've just written i've just realise that you could go in for an attack (blink stalker hellion) and then repair everything when you pull back to your base so you then have full health hellions and stalkers again plus extra units you should have been making the whole time
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On July 20 2011 17:43 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 17:37 JoeAWESOME wrote:On July 20 2011 17:33 lorkac wrote: I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
That shit seems sick, is that even possible? Do they repair the health of the stalkers? Terran just having shitloads of SCVs and money dumping in to a 6 gating blink stalker protoss Stalkers are mechanical so yes it would work. However it would be impractical because of the number of SCVs you would need for the stalkers and also bling stalkers are much more mobile the SCVs, it would be much better to have units like hellions instead of the SCVs. Although having reread what i've just written i've just realise that you could go in for an attack (blink stalker hellion) and then repair everything when you pull back to your base so you then have full health hellions and stalkers again plus extra units you should have been making the whole time
What I'd love to see is an Immortal being mass repaired as he's battling a Thor.
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Just been thinking about blink stalkers and i thought id point out some things which when you think about it are quite obvious little tips that you can use in mixed teams (not 2 of the same race)
1. SCV repair protoss units (already mensioned earlier in the thread) 2. Overlord can spot highground for pylon warpins directly into the enemy base, same with blinking up cliffs 3. Terran can scan, or observer can be used, to pop a nydus worm into the enemy base 4. Medivacs can be used on all Zerg units 5. You cannot use transports belonging to your ally even with shared control (i cant put roaches in your medivac, you can't put tanks in my nydus) UNLESS that player leaves the game, then he can put his colossus on my ovies 6. Playing a ZPv** P leaves the game i can chronoboost my zerg buildings to increase research time, also can be used to increase production (spawn lavie is boosted). Same with any combo containing a P that leaves 7. Spash damage which does friendly fire to your own units also does friendly fire to you ally (tank shots do splash that hurts you, collosus don't)
Also, in addition to my earlier post where i named units which rule at team games because of harassment i'm going to list the army units which kick ass:
Collosus, blink stalkers, sentries, chargelots, immortals for Protoss >Collosus, excellent with a large army to support them >Blink stalkers, very good if microed correctly >Sentries, you can split armies up or use them to FF a ramp behind you when you attack into the main, preventing the enemies ally from helping >Chargelots, deal good damage and can tank very well >Immortals, tank a lot of damage and can do alot of damage if microed (target armored units)
Roaches, Infestors, Broodlords for Zerg >Roaches are very fast, quickly replaced and their upgrades scale really well, also with burrow micro and burrow move they can be excellent in both battle and harass >Infestors, fungal a retrating army to destroy them, fungal so you can retread or fungal in battle, it's all good. Also it provides instant anti air with infested terrans >Broodlords, if you keep them with your army they are almost unstoppable and can clear any siege line and every defense the enemy may have
Marauders, tanks, thors for Terran >Marauders, with stim they can snipe building in a blink of the eye and also they are very good in army vs army battles as they can tank and deal a lot of damage to the standard units for team games > Tanks, whether using them to contain or repel the enemy they are excellent if you have support with them >Thors, actually just mech in general is really strong, take some SCVs to repair with you and it's amazing
When you play a team game make sure you think about not only what units you are getting but also what you ally is getting. If im with a terran going MMM im not going to get getting roach hydra because they have simular range and unless you engage in a wide open space most of the army will not be attacking in an engagement, so instead i'll go with lings and banelings to help, that way more of our army is attacking at once.
It's good to know the speed and range of all the main units in the game so you can compliment your allies army. If a toss goes mass blink stalker then im going to go either roach (similar speed and roaches have less range so roaches tank) or lings (if he gets blink then lings are better because of their speed, lings hold the enemy in place while stalkers shoot from a safe distance)
Just the same as when your with an ally who declaires at the start "im rushing BCs" or something simular you should be thinking, "ok, how can i keep us safe until he gets them?"
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On July 20 2011 17:58 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 17:43 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On July 20 2011 17:37 JoeAWESOME wrote:On July 20 2011 17:33 lorkac wrote: I'm just glad no one has done blink stalkers + autorepair
That shit seems sick, is that even possible? Do they repair the health of the stalkers? Terran just having shitloads of SCVs and money dumping in to a 6 gating blink stalker protoss Stalkers are mechanical so yes it would work. However it would be impractical because of the number of SCVs you would need for the stalkers and also bling stalkers are much more mobile the SCVs, it would be much better to have units like hellions instead of the SCVs. Although having reread what i've just written i've just realise that you could go in for an attack (blink stalker hellion) and then repair everything when you pull back to your base so you then have full health hellions and stalkers again plus extra units you should have been making the whole time What I'd love to see is an Immortal being mass repaired as he's battling a Thor.
In the words of Drewbi "Go Go Strike cannon!!" Followed soon after by Day9 "Did you just use strike cannon to kill a command center!? ahahahaahahahahaha"
<3 ROOT (+kyle) 4v4 with Day9 watching on stream ^^
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My partner and I play random random so we've experienced most of the matchups. However both of us are terribad as terran vs not double protoss. We do prefer rush based strategies in any game where we have TX.
Non-shared base maps: ZT vPZ,PP. Always have the zerg 10 pool speed, you ALWAYS have map control, and if the protoss was doing anything greedy(DT rush, VR rush, etc) you can kill him, or cripple/kill his partner provided a few marines come along. P is absolute trash at defending partners.
ZP v ZX. Zerg HAS to pool first to protect P, along with protecting himself, Zerg should pressure the other zerg.
ZZ v XX This matchup is hard. If not double early pool, one Z has to get muta's, and usually the other infestor. A transition to Broodlord's though is a MUST because otherwise your army is not costeffective enough. Once the infestor player has enough(6-7), excess gas needs to be fed for the other player to get broods up.
PX v XX. Protoss needs to decide to either wall ramp or wall mineral line, because otherwise P loses to everything =/. Transition for Protoss should be to colossus or storm unless it's vs double zerg or ZP, in which case (double) stargate + zealot is also very good. Partner should focus on building complementing units.
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On July 20 2011 17:29 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: In all team games there are certain units which cause absolute havok. >DTs, voidrays and phoinx for Protoss >Mutas, lings and infestors for Zerg >Banshees, hellions and drops (i know thats not a unit) for Terran
The reason for this is because they are all harass units, you can bounce between enemy players with them and cause mass amounts of damage, often causing the enemy to go all in and attack you head on, or pull their entire army back to deal with them.
If they are not prepared for these units then you can out right win a game with pure harass. My personal favorite is to go ling infestor with heavy upgrades and a quick hive. I personally love this because lings tank for my ally allowing him to do alot of damage when we attack. Typically my lings will die before before renforcements arrive so instead of renforcing my allies attack i will just run into the other players base while their army and attension is elsewhere.
Also infestors are soo good, even if they know you have them it's surprising how many players forget they can burrow, 2 infestors to each enemy base lobbing infested terrans to snipe nexuz/hatch/CC, when that happens at 4 bases all at once many players can not handle it and lose much more then they should, and then forget to look for the infestors hidden in their base ready to do it again.
Just to prove how good some units are in team games i played a 3v3 (yes i realise this is a 2v2 thread but it's relivent) and did a team monobattle, DT, Infestor, Marine. The DT player got rushed but managed to hold on and even though they knew what was coming and had delayed it they could not cope with the DT and Infestor harass. 2 manner Nexus and 1 manner CC ends the game ^^
In team games the general play is weaker then in 1v1 and there is alot of focus on the early rush but if that rush doesnt win the game or do serious damage then you are behind. For people saying you can't fast expand and you just one base all in to masters, that's rubish. When you come against a team as good as you if the game doesnt end in the first 10mins then prepare for an epic game. Team games are always more fun when they go into a macro game, often skipping the midgame and going headlong into the late games as players try to get their best units out "Im rushing carriers!" *facepalm* What league?
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On July 20 2011 22:07 Penatronic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 17:29 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: In all team games there are certain units which cause absolute havok. >DTs, voidrays and phoinx for Protoss >Mutas, lings and infestors for Zerg >Banshees, hellions and drops (i know thats not a unit) for Terran
The reason for this is because they are all harass units, you can bounce between enemy players with them and cause mass amounts of damage, often causing the enemy to go all in and attack you head on, or pull their entire army back to deal with them.
If they are not prepared for these units then you can out right win a game with pure harass. My personal favorite is to go ling infestor with heavy upgrades and a quick hive. I personally love this because lings tank for my ally allowing him to do alot of damage when we attack. Typically my lings will die before before renforcements arrive so instead of renforcing my allies attack i will just run into the other players base while their army and attension is elsewhere.
Also infestors are soo good, even if they know you have them it's surprising how many players forget they can burrow, 2 infestors to each enemy base lobbing infested terrans to snipe nexuz/hatch/CC, when that happens at 4 bases all at once many players can not handle it and lose much more then they should, and then forget to look for the infestors hidden in their base ready to do it again.
Just to prove how good some units are in team games i played a 3v3 (yes i realise this is a 2v2 thread but it's relivent) and did a team monobattle, DT, Infestor, Marine. The DT player got rushed but managed to hold on and even though they knew what was coming and had delayed it they could not cope with the DT and Infestor harass. 2 manner Nexus and 1 manner CC ends the game ^^
In team games the general play is weaker then in 1v1 and there is alot of focus on the early rush but if that rush doesnt win the game or do serious damage then you are behind. For people saying you can't fast expand and you just one base all in to masters, that's rubish. When you come against a team as good as you if the game doesnt end in the first 10mins then prepare for an epic game. Team games are always more fun when they go into a macro game, often skipping the midgame and going headlong into the late games as players try to get their best units out "Im rushing carriers!" *facepalm* What league?
Plat for all team games with random allies, diamond and masters for arranged teams, why?
Im just talking from experiance, i play mainly team games and those units stick out as game winners when used properly. Btw the monobattle was an arranged team in placement matches so the people we were against weren't that good :/
Edit: Also instead of posting a two word comment could you maybe add to the topic of the thread? If you disagree with something i said then explain why and put up your own thoughts as to why i am wrong and state your own reasoning for whatever you believe to be true
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Folks, don't be afraid to post your replays. 2v2 as a competitive format is basically uncharted territory, so every little bit counts.
On the new maps, can anyone from the PTR comment about them? How do they compare to the current map pool?
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yknow what might be interesting is 3 stalker rush + scv/rine, put the scvs on autorepair and position the stalkers in front to tank
actually the possibilities for protoss + repair seem quite interesting. Terran makes marines + scvs while feeding gas so protoss can make loads of VRs that get repaired when hurt.
Make reaper + blink stalker and bounce between enemies.
Bring some SCVs with every push, let your (high HP) colossi tank hits but pull them back before they die, repair them and carry on.
Mass repair a Mothership?
Terran makes 1 barracks and walls off, maybe with a bunker, and saves up -> mass feeds the protoss at 5:00 so he can go 8gate or 7gate with upgrades. Terran would be an amazing feeder race because they defend so easily in the first few minutes and they get the most income of any race via MULES. Also he can still make the best unit in the game, marines, without spending any gas at all. Zerg would be a decent feeder with mass drones as well but they don't defend quite as efficiently. And protoss is the perfect recipient of feed - can't feed until 5:00, but that's ok because warpgate usually finishes around 5:35-5:50. And actually it might be pretty viable to go forge first to be safe in the early game, and still have a giant army with upgrades as soon as warp tech finishes (6:20 or so?) thanks to getting fed.
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On July 20 2011 22:44 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 22:07 Penatronic wrote:On July 20 2011 17:29 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: In all team games there are certain units which cause absolute havok. >DTs, voidrays and phoinx for Protoss >Mutas, lings and infestors for Zerg >Banshees, hellions and drops (i know thats not a unit) for Terran
The reason for this is because they are all harass units, you can bounce between enemy players with them and cause mass amounts of damage, often causing the enemy to go all in and attack you head on, or pull their entire army back to deal with them.
If they are not prepared for these units then you can out right win a game with pure harass. My personal favorite is to go ling infestor with heavy upgrades and a quick hive. I personally love this because lings tank for my ally allowing him to do alot of damage when we attack. Typically my lings will die before before renforcements arrive so instead of renforcing my allies attack i will just run into the other players base while their army and attension is elsewhere.
Also infestors are soo good, even if they know you have them it's surprising how many players forget they can burrow, 2 infestors to each enemy base lobbing infested terrans to snipe nexuz/hatch/CC, when that happens at 4 bases all at once many players can not handle it and lose much more then they should, and then forget to look for the infestors hidden in their base ready to do it again.
Just to prove how good some units are in team games i played a 3v3 (yes i realise this is a 2v2 thread but it's relivent) and did a team monobattle, DT, Infestor, Marine. The DT player got rushed but managed to hold on and even though they knew what was coming and had delayed it they could not cope with the DT and Infestor harass. 2 manner Nexus and 1 manner CC ends the game ^^
In team games the general play is weaker then in 1v1 and there is alot of focus on the early rush but if that rush doesnt win the game or do serious damage then you are behind. For people saying you can't fast expand and you just one base all in to masters, that's rubish. When you come against a team as good as you if the game doesnt end in the first 10mins then prepare for an epic game. Team games are always more fun when they go into a macro game, often skipping the midgame and going headlong into the late games as players try to get their best units out "Im rushing carriers!" *facepalm* What league? Plat for all team games with random allies, diamond and masters for arranged teams, why? Im just talking from experiance, i play mainly team games and those units stick out as game winners when used properly. Btw the monobattle was an arranged team in placement matches so the people we were against weren't that good :/ Edit: Also instead of posting a two word comment could you maybe add to the topic of the thread? If you disagree with something i said then explain why and put up your own thoughts as to why i am wrong and state your own reasoning for whatever you believe to be true
I disagree with the statement that any tech unit is great in 2v2. My partner and I thrive off of punishing such greedy techiness with rushes that they cannot possibly hold off. Protoss took double early gas? Bum-rush his partner while preparing anti-air+detection. Toss already is the weakest race in 2's before WG research finishes, why try to kill him when you can kill his partner, and then 2v1 a tech player. With good control there is no way the 1 tech player should win if you properly finished his partner and are prepared.
The only race that can get away easily with teching and defending at the same time is Terran because of bunker+scv imba =(. Even then they can die quite easily to a rush.
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I'm ok in 3v3 and 4v4 but I have problems in 2v2. As a zerg player I dont know when I should open roach or ling. The number of maps and matchup possibilities are so big. I know ZT vs ZT is sling+hellion. I do got the builds down kinda okay atleast.
Anyone got any insight?
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you'll never go wrong with slings, roaches can sometimes be good but not always. So just go sling every game until you have a better understanding.
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My current build for Zerg in 2v2 is as follows:
10 Extractor 10 Pool 10 Overlord @Extractor 100%: Send two drones to gather gas. @100% Pool: 3 Zerglings and then as needed. @100 Gas: Pull drones from gas and begin Metabolic Boost @150 Minerals: Queen
My transition depends on whether I did some damage or not. Regardless, this opening provides excellent intel, and at my level can outright kill one player. If I do a lot of damage, I immediately put down a hatchery and power drone to cement our lead.
What do you think?
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How about instead of having general discussions that start going all different directions, we start some 2v2 threads for specific matchups or to review specific replays, like the rest of the strategy forum. I am all about promoting team play in sc2, but these threads never seem to go anywhere. To be taken seriously, we have to start treating it seriously.
If you'd like to continue the discussion, start a thread focused on one matchup or game. I've been thinking about PTvTZ recently, so maybe I'll start us off there.
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On July 21 2011 14:06 quillian wrote: How about instead of having general discussions that start going all different directions, we start some 2v2 threads for specific matchups or to review specific replays, like the rest of the strategy forum. I am all about promoting team play in sc2, but these threads never seem to go anywhere. To be taken seriously, we have to start treating it seriously.
If you'd like to continue the discussion, start a thread focused on one matchup or game. I've been thinking about PTvTZ recently, so maybe I'll start us off there.
Too many MUs imo. PT, TT, PP, PZ, ZZ, TZ, and all of them vs eachother. 49 vs 9 in regular SC2. Not competitive enough either, fairly small pool of strong teams players. You can get to a decent level just by having strong mechanics and a solid build plus a bit of game sense.
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On July 21 2011 10:52 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 22:44 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On July 20 2011 22:07 Penatronic wrote:On July 20 2011 17:29 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: In all team games there are certain units which cause absolute havok. >DTs, voidrays and phoinx for Protoss >Mutas, lings and infestors for Zerg >Banshees, hellions and drops (i know thats not a unit) for Terran
The reason for this is because they are all harass units, you can bounce between enemy players with them and cause mass amounts of damage, often causing the enemy to go all in and attack you head on, or pull their entire army back to deal with them.
If they are not prepared for these units then you can out right win a game with pure harass. My personal favorite is to go ling infestor with heavy upgrades and a quick hive. I personally love this because lings tank for my ally allowing him to do alot of damage when we attack. Typically my lings will die before before renforcements arrive so instead of renforcing my allies attack i will just run into the other players base while their army and attension is elsewhere.
Also infestors are soo good, even if they know you have them it's surprising how many players forget they can burrow, 2 infestors to each enemy base lobbing infested terrans to snipe nexuz/hatch/CC, when that happens at 4 bases all at once many players can not handle it and lose much more then they should, and then forget to look for the infestors hidden in their base ready to do it again.
Just to prove how good some units are in team games i played a 3v3 (yes i realise this is a 2v2 thread but it's relivent) and did a team monobattle, DT, Infestor, Marine. The DT player got rushed but managed to hold on and even though they knew what was coming and had delayed it they could not cope with the DT and Infestor harass. 2 manner Nexus and 1 manner CC ends the game ^^
In team games the general play is weaker then in 1v1 and there is alot of focus on the early rush but if that rush doesnt win the game or do serious damage then you are behind. For people saying you can't fast expand and you just one base all in to masters, that's rubish. When you come against a team as good as you if the game doesnt end in the first 10mins then prepare for an epic game. Team games are always more fun when they go into a macro game, often skipping the midgame and going headlong into the late games as players try to get their best units out "Im rushing carriers!" *facepalm* What league? Plat for all team games with random allies, diamond and masters for arranged teams, why? Im just talking from experiance, i play mainly team games and those units stick out as game winners when used properly. Btw the monobattle was an arranged team in placement matches so the people we were against weren't that good :/ Edit: Also instead of posting a two word comment could you maybe add to the topic of the thread? If you disagree with something i said then explain why and put up your own thoughts as to why i am wrong and state your own reasoning for whatever you believe to be true I disagree with the statement that any tech unit is great in 2v2. My partner and I thrive off of punishing such greedy techiness with rushes that they cannot possibly hold off. Protoss took double early gas? Bum-rush his partner while preparing anti-air+detection. Toss already is the weakest race in 2's before WG research finishes, why try to kill him when you can kill his partner, and then 2v1 a tech player. With good control there is no way the 1 tech player should win if you properly finished his partner and are prepared. The only race that can get away easily with teching and defending at the same time is Terran because of bunker+scv imba =(. Even then they can die quite easily to a rush.
Ok, my post may have been a little misleading, i didn't mean that people should do a rush to those tech units, but more keep them in mind when playing.
For example when i play 2v2 i like to go 11pool 18 hatch and then either mass ling or roach, either way i take two gas early and begin to save up for either infestors or mutas, but i stilll have a large standing force to hold off presure and attack with. Tehc rushes are very risky so id never tell anyone to rush for something like DTs because they'll die and then start flaming me.
But a slow tech to something such as a toss who opens 2 gate robo and gets immortals to defend can then slow tech to collosus, or if he goes 3 gate blink stalker can tech to DTs. As long as you have an army you can get away with teching in a lot of games.
To the OP, since no one has put up any 2v2 games except for you i'll upload some of my own games tonight and post them on here. Just a bit of advance warning, if i put upload the games i played last night they will be perfect examples of bad macro and fudging stuff up ^^ im really a bronze newbi at heart
Edit: spelling
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I had a few more thoughts that I figured were worth mentioning even if they seem as common as speaking to friends/foes or sharing control.
Fast expanding is usually a game-losing decision. Even as Zerg. (although you can expand with a little time at 16-22 or so behind an attack or if you scout nothing threatening)
Again, this is all general statements, but aggression in the 6-9 minute range is common to try to kill a player, to "cut out one of the legs" so that the body may fall. On top of that, Zerg is usually the player hit as they cannot wall off easily.
SO
A Zerg player Hatching first, which can be great, can also be hit with an army TWICE the size of anything you have seen in 1v1. However many crawlers you have, is probably not enough for you to save them, the hatch, and a few drones before your partner gets there, and even then, it can still be disasterous. Now I am not the word of God etc., but Hatching first should be reserved for the larger maps, or the shared base/expansion maps in my opinion.
A Forge FE can work sometimes, just like a 15 or 16 Hatch (Although the Ice Fisher build is HORRIBLE as it really does not provide a way for you to help your partner if they are attacked first...) but 1 cannon simply cannot stop the number of Lings, Marines, Zealots, etc. that can come early enough in a 2v2 game. Play a few and try it. Expanding right away will either win you the game or lose it for you. Depending on your league though, you will be attacked early enough with a crippling blow, not standard stoppable 1v1 cheese.
Liking the thread...more to come.
Edit: had another thought right away.
4-gating is WORTHLESS unless is is PP vs. PP. Simply because, the entire concept of the build order is a timing attack, and while it CAN work, it is largely map dependent. Did they scout you, can the other player be there in time to help crush your attack, is there a reason you don't have another build that might be more helpful to your partner? (An important 2v2 note is winning is usually accomplished by helping your teammate to win, not by being the best player in the game.)
Back to the 4-gate, either you will have the troops sit in your base after completion, or move out and face a superior force of 2 players.
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Ok so as promised, i have some games for you. I played 3 2v2s last night, all are with a random ally played one after the other.
Edit: I'd like to state again: Perfect examples of bad macro and fudging stuff up ^^ im really a bronze newbi at heart
Game 1 ZZvPP on Tempest, 17mins long + Show Spoiler +My ally 7 pools while I 11 pool 18 hatch and get roaches
Game 2 ZZvZT on Tempest, 15mins long + Show Spoiler +My ally goes roach expand and i 11pool 18 hatch and mass lings
Game 3 ZPvPP on Red Stone Gulch, 13mins long (same enemies as Game 1) + Show Spoiler +My ally goes 4 gate chargelots (Oo) and i 11 pool 18 hatch and mass lings
Edit2: Im playing some games right now and will upload games worthy of sharing as i play them
Game 1 ZTvZP, Monlyth Ridge, 8mins long + Show Spoiler +Enemy use overlord to spot highground for pylon warp in into allies base, mass ling then kills my base
Game 2 ZZvZZ on Scorched Haven, 16mins long + Show Spoiler +Ally leave the game after 6 seconds (i had run into him twice in the last 3 games and both times we lost) I proceed to 2v1
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Good thread.
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On July 22 2011 14:08 -Strobe- wrote:Good thread.
That looks alot like a bump Oo
A couple of quick questions to the 2v2 community > What are you thoughts on money dump stratigies? > What do you believe to be the strongest 2v2 race combination and why? > What do you believe to be the weakest 2v2 race combination and why?
It obviously wouldn't be fair for me to ask without giving my own thoughts so here goes.
Money dumping+ Show Spoiler +Money dumping in 2v2 and team games in general can be very stong, see Day9 dailey 296. There are extreams of money dumping, as shown in the Day9 dailey, where one player gives all their resouces to their ally and expands a load, the player being fed can get ahead in tech and army because their ally is focused on eco. I personally prefer the idea of more subtile money dumps, for example a ZPv** where the zerg expand early and goes roach but takes all 4 gas to feed protoss gas for very early stargates.
Strongest 2v2+ Show Spoiler +The strongest 2v2 race combination is generally regarded as TZ because of the various very aggressive openings they have open to them. There are unit combinations that have very good synergy such as hellion speedling or marauder roach, but also they have tech options which can turn games around. A common response to early aggresstion for a ZT team in high level games is for the T to tech cloak banshees, which can often level the game out or put the ZT team ahead. Having said that TP have very strong midgame armies which any other race combination will have a very hard time against in a head on battle. I personally like playing with a protoss ally (ZP) because it allows abuse of my overlords by providing vision of highground for warp ins or blink
Weakest 2v2+ Show Spoiler +The weakest 2v2 race combination im sure many will agree is PP because they are generally the weakest race in the early game unless the sacrifice both tech and eco Also if there is a Z*vPP then it's very likely that the PP team will lose to a rush because of the way they wall off with a zealot, if they wall at all
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On July 22 2011 18:01 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:That looks alot like a bump Oo A couple of quick questions to the 2v2 community > What are you thoughts on money dump stratigies? > What do you believe to be the strongest 2v2 race combination and why? > What do you believe to be the weakest 2v2 race combination and why? It obviously wouldn't be fair for me to ask without giving my own thoughts so here goes. Money dumping+ Show Spoiler +Money dumping in 2v2 and team games in general can be very stong, see Day9 dailey 296. There are extreams of money dumping, as shown in the Day9 dailey, where one player gives all their resouces to their ally and expands a load, the player being fed can get ahead in tech and army because their ally is focused on eco. I personally prefer the idea of more subtile money dumps, for example a ZPv** where the zerg expand early and goes roach but takes all 4 gas to feed protoss gas for very early stargates. Strongest 2v2+ Show Spoiler +The strongest 2v2 race combination is generally regarded as TZ because of the various very aggressive openings they have open to them. There are unit combinations that have very good synergy such as hellion speedling or marauder roach, but also they have tech options which can turn games around. A common response to early aggresstion for a ZT team in high level games is for the T to tech cloak banshees, which can often level the game out or put the ZT team ahead. Having said that TP have very strong midgame armies which any other race combination will have a very hard time against in a head on battle. I personally like playing with a protoss ally (ZP) because it allows abuse of my overlords by providing vision of highground for warp ins or blink Weakest 2v2+ Show Spoiler +The weakest 2v2 race combination im sure many will agree is PP because they are generally the weakest race in the early game unless the sacrifice both tech and eco Also if there is a Z*vPP then it's very likely that the PP team will lose to a rush because of the way they wall off with a zealot, if they wall at all
Money dumping+ Show Spoiler +It's something that should be done at the right times, not just one player going econ and the other waiting for resources to spam high tech units. I feel that this is actually a large problem with the game state at the moment. I mean, seeing games when a Z gets 40 mutas within a stupidly short time because hes being fed gas isnt the most interesting game, as usually even if you scout it, its undefendable anyway. Resource sharing is something that needs to be monitored in some way.. say a max of the amount per game? 2k/2k or something. Still a large amount, just not enough to play like that for the whole game.
Strongest 2v2+ Show Spoiler +From my experience, i think that TP is the strongest 2v2 team by far, Sentry expand coupled with 2 rax can stop any early cheese/push. And as stated this sets up for an explosive midgame. The units work together really well, Zeals and Rins are a quick and easy answer to a fast mineral army, the zeals tank, and the marines clean it up. Although i agree that TZ has something... extra about it in terms of really early game, some of the Z units are less desirable as the game goes on.
Weakest 2v2+ Show Spoiler +Would have to say PZ or PP, rushing does become a huge part of 2v2 and obviously PP will suffer hugely for that (2 Zeals vs 6 lings and a marine?). I suppose it comes down to how well you can pressure using different strategies. If P can get a deathball mixed in with Z harrass, then it should work... shame i dont think it will ever get that far.
On the subject of expand or not to expand; I think if you communicate who will expand early, it definatly works. If Z goes hatch first, the T/P should get early marines or Zeals to defend it, and vise versa. If you do hold the attack off, you should be well ahead. If the attack doesn't come, you can start to tech and get a large army due to the second base. Basically i wouldn't say that expand first is a terrible idea... just both have to defend it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 19 2011 10:09 Eternal Dalek wrote:And I'm back. Dinner was nice. Since nobody has posted any replays yet, I thought I'd post some of mine for critique. Please forgive my Platinum scrubbiness. In this game, the enemy Zerg player goes for a very greedy build, eschewing early game aggression for an economic payoff that never happens. As I mentioned in my OP, greedy openings are suicidal because they leave your partner in a 2v1 fight against the enemy team. Our opponents simply did not have enough units to repel our double rush. Another replay from this Platinum scrub. My ally tells me that he's going for MMM, and I play with the assumption that I'll have a decent bioball to protect my fragile colossi. However, my ally decides to get a little each of a large variety of units, greatly diluting his army's effectiveness. When you have a little bit of MMM, and a little bit of mech, you won't have enough for a critical mass against the enemy team. Had he stuck to MMM, abusing its mobility for drops while leaving the base-breaking to me, we might've had a chance. Again, critique is welcome. I wish to improve. A rather one-sided game where my team double rushes the player who didn't bother to wall off. This game shows how much harder it is to defend than to attack in team games, because if your team is on defense, both players' bases must be defended, while if you're on the attack, you concentrate your firepower on one with weaker defenses. Then again, Monlyth Ridge is a terrible, terrible map since the ramps point towards the enemy, making it that much harder to wall off your team's side of the map. This game shows the power of specialization. Marines have good dps but are extremely fragile, while zerglings have good dps and survivability for their price but have difficulty getting close to the enemy. Combine the two, and you have a powerful combination. The zerglings tank for the fragile marines, who can let loose their DPS to wtfpwn the enemy. Our team's highly mobile and specialized unit composition of zergling, marine, medivac, and mutalisk were quite effective against the enemy's nonspecialized army. Thank you in advance for your critique. I'll be back tomorrow.
I finally got round to watching some of these games and the biggest problem with your play that stuck out the most was that apart from the inicial worker scout you never knew what your opponents were doing or where they were expanding. You need to watch the mini map alot in this game, watch game 2 and just stare at the mini map, you left units out of possition, like a collosus on it's own right outside their base. You would have seen may of the attacks and harassment that was coming by simplyly glacing at the minimap.
Also, please keep an eye on you scouting worker, you send it out to gather information like gas timings, building timings and placement etc, but in these games you dont actually look at what you've just scouted, you wait and then go look when the workers already gone.
Anyway, im playing again tonight so will hopefully upload some more games unless some team game partners are online, mainly 3v3 so no place for those games here ^^
Edit: Just played an interesting game against a double terran team
Game 1 ZPvTT on Scorched Haven, 17mins long + Show Spoiler +TT Team goes mass marine mass marauder, banelings ftw
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I am a Diamond 1v1 Player but a very high 2v2 random masters player which should tell you that 2v2 isn't all about mechanics but strategy and attacking together. Game 1 In this game, my partner 10 pools while I 4 gate sending my first 3 units to their base to help my partners lings. The other team decided to do a FE which you really cannot do against zerg unless you have a shared wall.
Game 2 Same teammate even though random team (We just lost to a #16 Grandmaster xD) we go roach mm, I have no idea why the terran on the other team had so much production on one base though.
Game 3 I start off with a 10 Pool but scout double T so I go straight into drones while the double T team goes hellions/banshees/tanks/marine. My teammate goes MM, heavy on the marines. I get roach speed and we manage to break the front while the tanks were shooting at rocks. From there, a banshee from the double T appeared but it couldn't do enough DPS to hold off the roaches. My teammate also cancels his 12 Rax by accident.
Game 4 Whenever I scout a TZ going ling hellion and I am TZ, I like to go roach MM purely because if you can force an engagement, you will most likely win. After holding off some early pressure, my teammate scouts that they are going roach ling/maurder tank hellion which has no anti air. He goes into 2 port banshees while I slip him only 100 gas. When the other team makes a tank roach push, we are caught unaware and my teammate loses all but 4 scvs but has 5 banshees so we push and manage to take out their expo while keeping mine alive. From there we do massive damage to their base and take the game
Game 5 We face the same people in the last game. My teammate goes 6 rax while I go 2 rax 1 Fac 1 Star. They try an early pool but I wall in time. The toss on their team goes blink stalkers. After we hold the early pool it's pretty much an A-Move from there. To deal with the stalkers marine kiting, we walked into his base and killed everything so he was forced to engage.
Game 6 In this game, yet again we scout a early pool with a 2 gate so I cut lings and make only drones so I can get roaches. They try a cute bling bust with roach but my teammate pulls some /almost/ clutch repairs and we hold. We follow with a speed roach mm push that kills a lot of production but almost no econ. From there we just macro with our advantage and push with MMM and roach.
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A lot of players don't seem to understand 2v2 strategy which means that teams are often easily exploitable. This allows for the very high win-rates seen by the top teams. Being high-masters means absolutely nothing, the only thing that matters in 2v2 is win-rate over a large sample of games.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 23 2011 06:29 Vanchen wrote:I am a Diamond 1v1 Player but a very high 2v2 random masters player which should tell you that 2v2 isn't all about mechanics but strategy and attacking together. Game 1In this game, my partner 10 pools while I 4 gate sending my first 3 units to their base to help my partners lings. The other team decided to do a FE which you really cannot do against zerg unless you have a shared wall. Game 2Same teammate even though random team (We just lost to a #16 Grandmaster xD) we go roach mm, I have no idea why the terran on the other team had so much production on one base though. Game 3I start off with a 10 Pool but scout double T so I go straight into drones while the double T team goes hellions/banshees/tanks/marine. My teammate goes MM, heavy on the marines. I get roach speed and we manage to break the front while the tanks were shooting at rocks. From there, a banshee from the double T appeared but it couldn't do enough DPS to hold off the roaches. My teammate also cancels his 12 Rax by accident. Game 4Whenever I scout a TZ going ling hellion and I am TZ, I like to go roach MM purely because if you can force an engagement, you will most likely win. After holding off some early pressure, my teammate scouts that they are going roach ling/maurder tank hellion which has no anti air. He goes into 2 port banshees while I slip him only 100 gas. When the other team makes a tank roach push, we are caught unaware and my teammate loses all but 4 scvs but has 5 banshees so we push and manage to take out their expo while keeping mine alive. From there we do massive damage to their base and take the game Game 5We face the same people in the last game. My teammate goes 6 rax while I go 2 rax 1 Fac 1 Star. They try an early pool but I wall in time. The toss on their team goes blink stalkers. After we hold the early pool it's pretty much an A-Move from there. To deal with the stalkers marine kiting, we walked into his base and killed everything so he was forced to engage. Game 6In this game, yet again we scout a early pool with a 2 gate so I cut lings and make only drones so I can get roaches. They try a cute bling bust with roach but my teammate pulls some /almost/ clutch repairs and we hold. We follow with a speed roach mm push that kills a lot of production but almost no econ. From there we just macro with our advantage and push with MMM and roach.
Just watched all your games, thank you! They were all so good! One question though, in a couple of them were you playing arranged teams and using skype or something? You didn't chat with your ally but had shared control and both your builds seemed to work well together
Also, what server do you play on? Any chance of you playing some games with a lower level zerg player on EU server
Edit: Just googled you, US server Nevermind, im sure theres someone on the EU server that likes 2v2 somewhere
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Mida was my arranged team, I just managed to get Archon twice in a row. Happens a lot at like super high mmr, I end up running into the same people often.
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Just a few things I wanted to add from a 1v1 perspective.
-2v2 is somewhat competitive. I've matched against top players in 2v2, even when I won't in 1v1. You are matched against a higher diversity of teams. 3v3 and 4v4 are not competitive in the slightest.
-2v2 and 3v3 are completely different games. 2v2 is more about aggressive rushing and working together in offense and defense. 3v3 rewards many more harass and tech builds. Map pool contributes to this, since many 2v2 have shared base and hence shared defense.
-Team games allow placing directly into masters. The only requirement is that your team MMR is high enough. I could rant, but this is not the place.
-Resource dumping is a valid strategy. It's almost impossible to scout, and suddenly there are twice as many mutalisk as the timing would otherwise indicate. However, resource dumping costs APM.
-Abuse race strengths and weaknesses. Zergling speed, mutalisk harass, offensive/defensive bunkers, blue flame hellion drops, force field ramps, and any unit or spell with AoE are even more effective than they are in 1v1. Some races have no counter to certain strategies, deal with it.
-Knowing the map is way more important than in 1v1. Know which maps have backdoor rocks, since two players will overrun one who's going tech or econ. Know which high ground can be abused by proxy pylon, blink stalkers, DT, offensive bunker, or siege tank, since they're often combined with an unstoppable overlord or scan.
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Whoa so glad I came across this thread am interested in watching the replays and adding my own when I have a chance. Currently sitting at the high end of Masters 2v2 Random.
A few things/tips/whatever I can offer.
Every build should take into account you either want to All In, Push Early, FE, or use pressure to take a normally timed expo.
On top of the FE, push, or pressure builds you need to have a clear idea of whether you want to try to take a third or deny the 3rd's of your opponents. I find that soft or hard contains allows you to get up a 3rd and solidify the contain so that you can have map control and starve them.
Dealing with a Random teammate is an excersize in patience, I generally let us each play our own game with only a small amount of discussion as to what our overall game plan is. After a few minutes you both should have a feel for how the other is playing and adjust accordingly so you meet in the middle.
For Terran at least if you aren't planning to push early Marine, Tank, Medivac, with Vikings as nessessary is IMO the most well rounded build as you get 2 Factory Tank and take complete ground control your ally then either making low teir throw away units / fast units / or air units all work well in conjunction with heavy tank counts.
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I'm mid-masters 2v2 for what it is worth.
I quite enjoy it... though RT can be frustrating when you are paired with an ally who doesn't understand that you need to play with the same general strategy in mind (all-in, semi all-in early push or defend rush and expo).
Problems with 2v2 are two fold atm:
1) The maps. I feel if we had maps like Terminus RE etc etc 2v2 would be better balanced.
I like the new map they put in... the desert tileset with 1 shared natural in base. That is leading to some epic games already.
2) Protoss is very weak in 2v2 early game (the most important part of 2v2).
This might be a map issue but there are too many deadly timings vs. Toss before warp gates are finished.
Maybe some alternate strategies need to be explored here (3 gate stalker or something perhaps) but, recently, I've stopped playing random because I feel P is at a sizable disadvantage.
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I like doing ZZ vs anything. I have either my partner leave instantly or I do, and get a spawning pool in mere seconds. Guahahahahahahahahahahhaha
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Matched Aristeo/Cubert searching 2v2 RT
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day9 did a 2v2 week, which I recommend for anyone who is planning on playing 2v2 at anything more than a casual level. He brings up some really good points, like splitting the opponents armies, why zerg is S_SO_good in multiplayer games (able to get units out fast to split armies and bounce between bases), and the big differences in strat between 1v1s and 2v2s. He also explains why it's ok for 1 player to get rushed and die early, and his team can still be ahead. I thought the biggest difference was 1 player should be rushing to force a response from the other team while the second team member techs up to slaughter the lower tier armies that the other team had to make to defend the rushing player. If YOU get rushed, your job is to make them take as long as possible to kill you while starting to resource dump to your teammate to help him have a huge swell to crush both their armies once they're one with you. Also, once you're dead, you can share control and have 1 player macro and the other manage attacks/micro, which is suprisingly effective unless you both have ungodly apm anyways,in which case you're probably good enough at 1v1s to just be playing multiplayer just for funzies.
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I really enjoy 2v2 these days, playing an arranged team with a friend of mine. We're diamond 1v1s and Diamond 2v2 on the cusp of masters with a pretty good win ratio. We generally only lose to getting caught out by early game abuse.
Imo the most important thing in team games is map control, map control and map control.
We play TP and open with a shared wall (if required) and a bit of 2 gate stalker/zeal pressure for early map control. I gas first rush to siege tanks (tank and tech complete around 5:45) which holds off most timings except for rine rushing etc. Protoss then goes for a fast stargate and phoenix harass/map control while we both expand behind tanks, add more factories and blue flame for denying expos.
I'm also really really happy with the map pool - I like the fact that so many maps have 8 bases (ie 4 shared bases) to make it harder to blind cheese. It allows you to play a pretty fun macro based game which we enjoy (even though I'm sure abusive rush builds a la protech's stream are what is required at the very top)
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On July 19 2011 16:58 Xylarthen wrote:Show nested quote + On July 19 16:43FreedonNadd wrote On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Can you mine from an allies geyser?
Yes you can. Not if they already laid down an extractor/assimilator/refinery. But yeah, like any other open geyser you can claim it. In 2v2 you can also give each other resources after 4-5 minutes I believe, so if you need alot of gas for High Templar, or Cloaked Banshees, of Mutalisks, your partner can send you a bunch to help you pump out more units of a certain type than you might be able to otherwise. This is great for early Muta harass for example where they might be scared off early when they cannot fight a handful of Marines or a Cannon, but if you were gifted 500 gas I'm sure you can find 5 more Mutas very powerful at 8 minutes when it is common to only see 4-8. This means your partner might be able to focus very strongly on Marines or Zealots to defend on the ground when you have air-control and with minerals you might be able to donate to them. In the beta phases of the game there was a Protoss and Terran 2v2 strategy started that involved letting the Terran grab all 3 bases (Their main and the two expansions) and ramp up their Mules with 6-gas and walling off until transferring everything over to a Protoss player who had made cannons and Stargates until they had a VERY fast 200/200 Void Ray/Carrier army which is usually deadly let alone around 15 Minutes.
What he means is that you can make a gas structure and with share control, your ally can mine from YOUR geyser.
This is useful in certain timings, such as this example:
Around 8-9 supply I send a drone to make a geyser in my Terran ally's base. Because he can mine sooner and without losing the minerals from building (ala sub-5min mineral sharing) he can get hellions out 20-25 seconds faster.
It slows my speed/rush/etc by about as much time.
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Is anyone else extremely disappointed in season 3's 2v2 map pool? It features all of ONE map which doesn't have a shared base+ramp.
I feel like they are promoting 1-base all-ins... very disappointing to say the least. I was really looking forward to some teams this season, but looks like it's back to the 1v1 scene until next season.
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I play more 2v2 than 1v1. Mostly go for 11 marines + 7 roach rush on 5:00 which can be devastating on small maps. It hits before 4gate, cloacked banshe and DT rush goes online, and then its just 2v1. Especially if you talk on skype it is a very nice experience, much less stressing thatn 1v1.
Share the win, but also share defeat! I like this thread, i shows that sc2 is not about playing one race against one person. There are 3 races, and you can play in team as well! It expands the game a lot.
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I've been playing alot more 2v2s recently as Terran its actually quite fun, Gets a little stressful when your partner doesn't even help or talk ask them what their gameplan is and get some stupid reply, Its not really team worky. It does seem a hell of alot easier to league up than in 1v1, I guess its because your partners can carry you in your weakness if its macro/micro, Unlike 1v1 you don't need to be perfect in both to get high up, I really need some terran builds :p, I've been using either Mass rine/BF Hellion drops into mech. Mech is so effective with little effort, Its just seige wait a-move.
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On July 28 2011 22:29 -Dustin- wrote: I've been playing alot more 2v2s recently as Terran its actually quite fun, Gets a little stressful when your partner doesn't even help or talk ask them what their gameplan is and get some stupid reply, Its not really team worky. It does seem a hell of alot easier to league up than in 1v1, I guess its because your partners can carry you in your weakness if its macro/micro, Unlike 1v1 you don't need to be perfect in both to get high up, I really need some terran builds :p, I've been using either Mass rine/BF Hellion drops into mech. Mech is so effective with little effort, Its just seige wait a-move.
Standard terran openings I typically use:
3-4 rax stim expo (2 techlabs, usually wait for reactors for later to spend gas elsewhere) Gives strong early game army for offense/defense, strong early timings.
1-1-1 builds into expo. recently targeted at getting 1 reactored factory making bf hellions and two starports on banshees, but any variation works out well if your ally is strong enough to defend very early pressure. Good tech flexibility and harass capabilities. Very easy to swap around reactors and Techlabs On factories and starports to counter opponents while complimenting allies army.
Marine tank expands. Ally should have gate/rax/roach stuff early for some mobile meat to protect the tanks.
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Blink stalkers are very, very good in 2v2. It's pretty unlikely your ally wont be able to spot for you up cliffs allowing you to harass freely, and stalkers can serve as the meatshield for something with higher DPS / more fragile like Colossi, tanks, etc.
Followup with storm and upgrades and some anti-marauder, and you have something very hard to stop for the common Zerg /Terran team.
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On July 29 2011 02:31 Penatronic wrote: Standard terran openings I typically use:
3-4 rax stim expo (2 techlabs, usually wait for reactors for later to spend gas elsewhere) Gives strong early game army for offense/defense, strong early timings.
1-1-1 builds into expo. recently targeted at getting 1 reactored factory making bf hellions and two starports on banshees, but any variation works out well if your ally is strong enough to defend very early pressure. Good tech flexibility and harass capabilities. Very easy to swap around reactors and Techlabs On factories and starports to counter opponents while complimenting allies army.
Marine tank expands. Ally should have gate/rax/roach stuff early for some mobile meat to protect the tanks.
Thanks for the info sir, I don't really like going bio but I will when its needed, I do like 1-1-1 never tried doing BF and shees. The only time I ever tried Marine Tank is to push early or if my partner wants me to defend while he macros up, My biggest problem is the Muta timing when playing mech I never have any Marines and end up forgetting Turrets and get insta gged by Mutas -.-.
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On July 28 2011 22:29 -Dustin- wrote: I've been playing alot more 2v2s recently as Terran its actually quite fun, Gets a little stressful when your partner doesn't even help or talk ask them what their gameplan is and get some stupid reply, Its not really team worky. It does seem a hell of alot easier to league up than in 1v1, I guess its because your partners can carry you in your weakness if its macro/micro, Unlike 1v1 you don't need to be perfect in both to get high up, I really need some terran builds :p, I've been using either Mass rine/BF Hellion drops into mech. Mech is so effective with little effort, Its just seige wait a-move.
The top 2v2r Terrans on SEA (Okharon & Comisod) use a very solid marine/tank defensive play-style. I'm 90% sure they do this regardless of what their teammate is doing (at least Okharon does). I think it's actually a very smart and solid tactic because you should never trust your teammate in a 2v2 game unless you know who they are. Especially if you're one of the best, you can only assume they're weaker than you. Personally, since I play Z I find that I have to adjust my play to support my teammate. I simply ask them at the start what they're going to do and adjust to that. If there is any chance at getting an FE up (only against non-zerg team) I also try that because it is more than likely I'm going to be carrying.
It is very easy to league up in team games, but maintaining a 75%+ win-rate in 2v2 AT or a 60-65% win-rate in 2v2r is not as easy as you think. Honestly, looking at win-rate over a large sample size is the only way to judge skill in 2v2. It doesn't matter if you're top 10 2v2 AT in points if your win-rate is 55-60%. Once you get to 75%+ for non-ZT teams you have really got yourself a top-tier team. Anything over 80% and they're more than likely going to be the best team on the server. It's a lot easier to maintain 75%+ as ZT so I don't like to include the combination when judging a teams skill
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for those looking for an easy build, i got into high master 2v2 just by doing 5 or 6 rax marine builds. a lot of people i know do this. paired with stalker or roach its pretty unbeatable. this doesnt work for the longer 2v2 maps, but is devastating and simple as the marines just do unbelievable DPS and the roaches tank.
counters are:
tanks on shared base maps (if not shared just go for the ally) double P very good stalker / sentry micro this is more theoretical, but roach / bane
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your Country52796 Posts
On maps with small rush distances,both players can do a turbo 2 rax marine rush: 9 depot 10 rax 11 rax Pump marines nonstop and attack at the 4 minute mark,or get another rax at 13 and attack at 4:30。
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On August 02 2011 22:34 familyguy123 wrote: for those looking for an easy build, i got into high master 2v2 just by doing 5 or 6 rax marine builds. a lot of people i know do this. paired with stalker or roach its pretty unbeatable. this doesnt work for the longer 2v2 maps, but is devastating and simple as the marines just do unbelievable DPS and the roaches tank.
counters are:
tanks on shared base maps (if not shared just go for the ally) double P very good stalker / sentry micro this is more theoretical, but roach / bane
I think if you're going to do marine/roaches, it's probably better to do a stimmed timing attack with roaches. Going 5-6 rax rines and then waiting for a zerg to get his roaches out is kind of stupid. Not to mention you're going to get completely owned by any team who has half a brain.Marines are also very slow to replenish and by doing this build you have absolutely no map control.
I think there are much stronger all-ins than this.
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On July 19 2011 13:41 Dhalphir wrote: I don't think its possible to take random 2v2 seriously and not end up hating yourself, hating the game, hating all of humanity and hating life in general. The possibility for shitty teammates causing you to lose to even shittier opponents is too high.
When I play random 2v2 its just for warmup or when I want to practise a 1v1 build and don't want to do so in 1v1 or a build order tester.
However, it CAN be a fun way to play with an arranged teammate.
So 100% f-ing true when the game went retail a year ago, less true now. One time, after barely losing a 2v1, I look at my allies base and see a line of hatcheries from his base to the opponents base...like he didn't know what a creep tumor was.
Every once in a while though, I'll get the protoss ally that cannons in his main on a fortress map and then yells at me for not building enough defense. Sigh...
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On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
.... How about travel time for my protoss partner? I'm sure he could have minded the same amount of minerals instead of taking a trip into my base.
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Hello, i realise it's been almost a week since the last post but i have some replays of some games i just played with a friend
I am a gold level 1v1 and in a couple of masters teams but mostly plat/diamond for team games. My ally Laura is in bronze for 1v1 (imo should be silver) and these are our placement matches that we played one after the other using the same tactic in each. All games are ling hellion (then banshee), we are on skype chatting and i have unit control of her hellions
Game 1 ZTvZZ + Show Spoiler +The two Zergs tried to tech and expand. Strange thing about this game was one of the zergs had 1000 1v1 wins as Z and the other had 1000 team game wins as Z but one was gold and the other silver [ url=http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=225239][/url]
Game 2 ZTvPT + Show Spoiler +Terran goes Marauder while Protoss goes 1 gate robo
Game 3 ZTvPZ + Show Spoiler +Zerg goes banelings after seeing my mass ling, Protoss does some sort of 2 gate into 4 gate build. They manage to hold until banshees arrive
Game 4 ZTvPZ + Show Spoiler +Protoss semi walls in and goes 3 gate forge, Zerg attempts to expand but can not saturate because of pressure. Proxy pylon causes some issues near the end
Game 5 ZTvZT + Show Spoiler +Terran walls in and goes Mass Marine, Zerg goes roach and they push. Unable to do damage because of the wall, this was the only game we lost
I'd like to point out that because both me and my ally are lower level the standard of macro and micro are both awful, these games were the first time we'd tried this strategy, me having just shown her how to do it in a custom again very easy AI Also, yes i realise i forget my gas in a couple of games, and yes in the games i remembered i then forgot to research speed -.-'
These replays are to show how effective ling hellion is in 2v2, a lot of high level players use this strategy and it is difficult to know how to stop it
Hope you enjoy the games!
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On August 02 2011 23:37 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone. .... How about travel time for my protoss partner? I'm sure he could have minded the same amount of minerals instead of taking a trip into my base.
I think he meant for shared bases, it is obviously not worth it otherwise ^^
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On July 28 2011 13:49 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 16:58 Xylarthen wrote: On July 19 16:43FreedonNadd wrote On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Can you mine from an allies geyser?
Yes you can. Not if they already laid down an extractor/assimilator/refinery. But yeah, like any other open geyser you can claim it. In 2v2 you can also give each other resources after 4-5 minutes I believe, so if you need alot of gas for High Templar, or Cloaked Banshees, of Mutalisks, your partner can send you a bunch to help you pump out more units of a certain type than you might be able to otherwise. This is great for early Muta harass for example where they might be scared off early when they cannot fight a handful of Marines or a Cannon, but if you were gifted 500 gas I'm sure you can find 5 more Mutas very powerful at 8 minutes when it is common to only see 4-8. This means your partner might be able to focus very strongly on Marines or Zealots to defend on the ground when you have air-control and with minerals you might be able to donate to them. In the beta phases of the game there was a Protoss and Terran 2v2 strategy started that involved letting the Terran grab all 3 bases (Their main and the two expansions) and ramp up their Mules with 6-gas and walling off until transferring everything over to a Protoss player who had made cannons and Stargates until they had a VERY fast 200/200 Void Ray/Carrier army which is usually deadly let alone around 15 Minutes. What he means is that you can make a gas structure and with share control, your ally can mine from YOUR geyser. This is useful in certain timings, such as this example: Around 8-9 supply I send a drone to make a geyser in my Terran ally's base. Because he can mine sooner and without losing the minerals from building (ala sub-5min mineral sharing) he can get hellions out 20-25 seconds faster. It slows my speed/rush/etc by about as much time. ===== Is anyone else extremely disappointed in season 3's 2v2 map pool? It features all of ONE map which doesn't have a shared base+ramp.
I feel like they are promoting 1-base all-ins... very disappointing to say the least. I was really looking forward to some teams this season, but looks like it's back to the 1v1 scene until next season.
what are you talking about? shared base/ramp in 2v2 discourages 1 base allins by making the defender's advantage greater.
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what are you talking about? shared base/ramp in 2v2 discourages 1 base allins by making the defender's advantage greater. Me and my man henry got a TZ strat vs TP or any shared base map where I gas first and reactor rax (looks like sling hellion) but he roaches, and I get 5 tanks + siege out by 7:15 and at enemies base by 8 min.
So far it can hold 4 gate + roach, sling hellion, hellion roach. Not only hold, but out right win the game. We were 1k masters team last season (35-23 or something) and so far are 10-1 this season.
I actually enjoy facing TP on shared bases. Beyond BALLER phoenix control, the damage will clear their shared base and hits before T can have tanks out. We, as a TZ team, were at a loss vs TP shared base. Not anymore. The henryjeffy 5 tank marine roach push !!!
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On August 08 2011 13:43 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 13:49 michaelhasanalias wrote:On July 19 2011 16:58 Xylarthen wrote: On July 19 16:43FreedonNadd wrote On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Can you mine from an allies geyser?
Yes you can. Not if they already laid down an extractor/assimilator/refinery. But yeah, like any other open geyser you can claim it. In 2v2 you can also give each other resources after 4-5 minutes I believe, so if you need alot of gas for High Templar, or Cloaked Banshees, of Mutalisks, your partner can send you a bunch to help you pump out more units of a certain type than you might be able to otherwise. This is great for early Muta harass for example where they might be scared off early when they cannot fight a handful of Marines or a Cannon, but if you were gifted 500 gas I'm sure you can find 5 more Mutas very powerful at 8 minutes when it is common to only see 4-8. This means your partner might be able to focus very strongly on Marines or Zealots to defend on the ground when you have air-control and with minerals you might be able to donate to them. In the beta phases of the game there was a Protoss and Terran 2v2 strategy started that involved letting the Terran grab all 3 bases (Their main and the two expansions) and ramp up their Mules with 6-gas and walling off until transferring everything over to a Protoss player who had made cannons and Stargates until they had a VERY fast 200/200 Void Ray/Carrier army which is usually deadly let alone around 15 Minutes. What he means is that you can make a gas structure and with share control, your ally can mine from YOUR geyser. This is useful in certain timings, such as this example: Around 8-9 supply I send a drone to make a geyser in my Terran ally's base. Because he can mine sooner and without losing the minerals from building (ala sub-5min mineral sharing) he can get hellions out 20-25 seconds faster. It slows my speed/rush/etc by about as much time. ===== Is anyone else extremely disappointed in season 3's 2v2 map pool? It features all of ONE map which doesn't have a shared base+ramp.
I feel like they are promoting 1-base all-ins... very disappointing to say the least. I was really looking forward to some teams this season, but looks like it's back to the 1v1 scene until next season. what are you talking about? shared base/ramp in 2v2 discourages 1 base allins by making the defender's advantage greater.
I actually think the new maps are alright, i think blizzard have gone a little rock mental and on some of the 3v3 and 4v4 maps it's almost impossible to take a 3rd base. With the shared base maps yes you could say it promotes 1 base all-ins but on a couple of the maps there are inbase expos and easy to defend naturals.
I have to agree with Keilah thats the defenders are better off on a shared base, however the attackers will usually have an advantage because they have been focused on attacking and will typically have a large combined army. But that has always been the case in team games so nothing new there.
If you don't like the shared base maps just veto them, or you could play them for a while and see that not everyone on the ladder does a 1 base all-in
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Well I decided to switch to my main race (Zerg) after I got demoted back to Diamond -.-', And just wasn't having fun as Terran anymore. I've noticed there are a TON more proxys when up against a Zerg. So I open 11 Overpool for safety and to punish a player for not walling early and to spine rush a Zerg with my scouting Drone. Sure its cheesy but 6 Lings 1 Crawler while I'm droning useally puts me even or ahead of the Zerg. Plus it can outright win the game. I really like to go Burrow Infestors and use IT to snipe expos while my partner seiges other expos and draws their forces. I useally stay on low Drone counts and tech to Ultras/BLs, Other games when my partner has enough defense I will get an upwards of 90 Drones and just remax Over and over. My army may not do much damage but I can easily remax the entire thing with ease while dropping Lings in minerals lines and Etc. I have a friend thats started 2v2ing with me hes Protoss. What are some good 2v2 Strats with ZP vs Anything. I was thinking something like Ling/Bling mostly Bling to take out Bio while he 2 Robo Chronos Immortals while I feed him Gas+Mins. As long as he is good at target firing the Roaches/Stalks/Maruaders it seems viable to be. But thats just theory craft will test as soon as I can.
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I was playing some 2v2s for fun and come across a pretty good build.
I 15 hatch in my main, 15 gas 15 pool, make a nice simcity with the pool and the hatch, and then do a typical roach speedling all in with 19 drones. Hits at about 6:45 with 8-9 roaches and you have 2 hatches rallying lings constantly. It's a pretty standard zvz 1v1 build, except with a macro hatch instead of an expo. Couple it with any similar timed attack from an ally (such as blinkstalker) and it hits pretty hard. Roach/ling is a lot stronger than pure roach or pure ling. It seems to hit just before standard siege mode timing so you can punch down the wall and get lings onto his tanks. It's easy to add evo + spore if you suspect DTs or banshees. While you rally zerglings you can spend your gas on +1 melee attack in case the game goes longer.
I'm comfortable holding off 10pools and other single cheeses with drone micro, the roaches come out in time for stuff like 3 rax or 2 gate. the only match-up where I'm not comfortable with the in-base 15hatch is against two zergs. On maps with a protected expo you can just do a regular hatch first.
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On August 08 2011 13:43 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 13:49 michaelhasanalias wrote:On July 19 2011 16:58 Xylarthen wrote: On July 19 16:43FreedonNadd wrote On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Can you mine from an allies geyser?
Yes you can. Not if they already laid down an extractor/assimilator/refinery. But yeah, like any other open geyser you can claim it. In 2v2 you can also give each other resources after 4-5 minutes I believe, so if you need alot of gas for High Templar, or Cloaked Banshees, of Mutalisks, your partner can send you a bunch to help you pump out more units of a certain type than you might be able to otherwise. This is great for early Muta harass for example where they might be scared off early when they cannot fight a handful of Marines or a Cannon, but if you were gifted 500 gas I'm sure you can find 5 more Mutas very powerful at 8 minutes when it is common to only see 4-8. This means your partner might be able to focus very strongly on Marines or Zealots to defend on the ground when you have air-control and with minerals you might be able to donate to them. In the beta phases of the game there was a Protoss and Terran 2v2 strategy started that involved letting the Terran grab all 3 bases (Their main and the two expansions) and ramp up their Mules with 6-gas and walling off until transferring everything over to a Protoss player who had made cannons and Stargates until they had a VERY fast 200/200 Void Ray/Carrier army which is usually deadly let alone around 15 Minutes. What he means is that you can make a gas structure and with share control, your ally can mine from YOUR geyser. This is useful in certain timings, such as this example: Around 8-9 supply I send a drone to make a geyser in my Terran ally's base. Because he can mine sooner and without losing the minerals from building (ala sub-5min mineral sharing) he can get hellions out 20-25 seconds faster. It slows my speed/rush/etc by about as much time. ===== Is anyone else extremely disappointed in season 3's 2v2 map pool? It features all of ONE map which doesn't have a shared base+ramp.
I feel like they are promoting 1-base all-ins... very disappointing to say the least. I was really looking forward to some teams this season, but looks like it's back to the 1v1 scene until next season. what are you talking about? shared base/ramp in 2v2 discourages 1 base allins by making the defender's advantage greater.
I would loved to see easily taken 3rds for both players, or atleast 3 easily defensible expansions per team... Most maps you get 1-2 for the whole team, kinda blows when you're Zerg v tp and You absolutely want to be up on bases.
It seems like they settled for one stupid easy to defend expo, one normal expo, then very few reasonable 3rds, and never for both players.
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On August 08 2011 23:17 Penatronic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 13:43 Keilah wrote:On July 28 2011 13:49 michaelhasanalias wrote:On July 19 2011 16:58 Xylarthen wrote: On July 19 16:43FreedonNadd wrote On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Can you mine from an allies geyser?
Yes you can. Not if they already laid down an extractor/assimilator/refinery. But yeah, like any other open geyser you can claim it. In 2v2 you can also give each other resources after 4-5 minutes I believe, so if you need alot of gas for High Templar, or Cloaked Banshees, of Mutalisks, your partner can send you a bunch to help you pump out more units of a certain type than you might be able to otherwise. This is great for early Muta harass for example where they might be scared off early when they cannot fight a handful of Marines or a Cannon, but if you were gifted 500 gas I'm sure you can find 5 more Mutas very powerful at 8 minutes when it is common to only see 4-8. This means your partner might be able to focus very strongly on Marines or Zealots to defend on the ground when you have air-control and with minerals you might be able to donate to them. In the beta phases of the game there was a Protoss and Terran 2v2 strategy started that involved letting the Terran grab all 3 bases (Their main and the two expansions) and ramp up their Mules with 6-gas and walling off until transferring everything over to a Protoss player who had made cannons and Stargates until they had a VERY fast 200/200 Void Ray/Carrier army which is usually deadly let alone around 15 Minutes. What he means is that you can make a gas structure and with share control, your ally can mine from YOUR geyser. This is useful in certain timings, such as this example: Around 8-9 supply I send a drone to make a geyser in my Terran ally's base. Because he can mine sooner and without losing the minerals from building (ala sub-5min mineral sharing) he can get hellions out 20-25 seconds faster. It slows my speed/rush/etc by about as much time. ===== Is anyone else extremely disappointed in season 3's 2v2 map pool? It features all of ONE map which doesn't have a shared base+ramp.
I feel like they are promoting 1-base all-ins... very disappointing to say the least. I was really looking forward to some teams this season, but looks like it's back to the 1v1 scene until next season. what are you talking about? shared base/ramp in 2v2 discourages 1 base allins by making the defender's advantage greater. I would loved to see easily taken 3rds for both players, or atleast 3 easily defensible expansions per team... Most maps you get 1-2 for the whole team, kinda blows when you're Zerg v tp and You absolutely want to be up on bases. It seems like they settled for one stupid easy to defend expo, one normal expo, then very few reasonable 3rds, and never for both players.
I honestly believe that the only thing stopping zerg from being OP in 2v2 is the fact that it's so hard to grab and hold a third.
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What team composition is best? I feel like a TT team isn't that great, but a TZ or a PZ team is good. Is there a standard "best team composition" though?
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On August 09 2011 00:24 Nemasyst.598 wrote: What team composition is best? I feel like a TT team isn't that great, but a TZ or a PZ team is good. Is there a standard "best team composition" though? Against vZ*, ZZ absolutely dominates. One person goes mass speedling, the other roaches, and an attack at 5:30-6:00 when speed finishes is a guaranteed knockout of the Zerg player.
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On August 09 2011 00:27 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 00:24 Nemasyst.598 wrote: What team composition is best? I feel like a TT team isn't that great, but a TZ or a PZ team is good. Is there a standard "best team composition" though? Against vZ*, ZZ absolutely dominates. One person goes mass speedling, the other roaches, and an attack at 5:30-6:00 when speed finishes is a guaranteed knockout of the Zerg player. Makes sense.
But you can't gurantee that a Zerg player will be on the other team, so is there an overall best team comp, or is it just dependent on what your enemy is?
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On August 09 2011 00:24 Nemasyst.598 wrote: What team composition is best? I feel like a TT team isn't that great, but a TZ or a PZ team is good. Is there a standard "best team composition" though?
Its generally accepted that you need a zerg. And the you dont want teams of two of the same race. Esp not PP
TZ is currently ranked highest on the points list, however that may be due to the fact that those guys are very good.
Pretty much PZ or TZ is accepted as being the best. But its not like you cant do well without it. Im masters with over 50-50 win rate with TP
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On August 08 2011 20:53 -Dustin- wrote: Well I decided to switch to my main race (Zerg) after I got demoted back to Diamond -.-', And just wasn't having fun as Terran anymore. I've noticed there are a TON more proxys when up against a Zerg.
So I open 11 Overpool for safety and to punish a player for not walling early and to spine rush a Zerg with my scouting Drone. Sure its cheesy but 6 Lings 1 Crawler while I'm droning useally puts me even or ahead of the Zerg. Plus it can outright win the game.
I really like to go Burrow Infestors and use IT to snipe expos while my partner seiges other expos and draws their forces. I useally stay on low Drone counts and tech to Ultras/BLs, Other games when my partner has enough defense I will get an upwards of 90 Drones and just remax Over and over. My army may not do much damage but I can easily remax the entire thing with ease while dropping Lings in minerals lines and Etc.
I have a friend thats started 2v2ing with me hes Protoss. What are some good 2v2 Strats with ZP vs Anything. I was thinking something like Ling/Bling mostly Bling to take out Bio while he 2 Robo Chronos Immortals while I feed him Gas+Mins. As long as he is good at target firing the Roaches/Stalks/Maruaders it seems viable to be. But thats just theory craft will test as soon as I can.
Thats quite hard to read tbh so i split it up a bit.
I personally also do 11 overpool in my games because it saves you against a lot of early cheeses like cannon rushes and proxys. Also, infestors are absolutly awsome! I love them, especially in team games where players attension is more likely to be else where. Also, baneling bombs work quite well, load up 4 overlords with banelings and send 2 to each of you opponents bases and set them up to drop their load right in the mineral line.
As for the ZP 2v2 strats, 10 pool and mass stalker works well because both the lings and stalkers are very fast and can work well together as a rush strategy, you could also try 10 pool and 2 gate zealot. Also something like infestors with Sentries, HT or Collosus are really good for longer macro games.
Im not so keen on going ling baneling unless im against a double terran team, but thats just personal preferance. Generally if im with a Protoss ally i will go ling roach and then infestors while they get their gateway army with collosus which is great if we manage to survive until a critical number of collosus or they rush air (very risky) leaving me to defend the 2v1
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TZ is the most dynamic, I'd say . I have a slew of strats we use. Obviously sling hellion. Mara marine stim rush with roaches. Marine roach. Marine tank roach. Shared base gas feed for fast mutas.
PZ has a lot of cheese solid rushes. zeal/sling high ground warp in. 4 gate + roach. Sling pressure + dt or VR etc.
So it's a toss between TZ and PZ.
TZ is is just mobile. Very mobile, and abusive. When we sling hellion, my ally gets early banes, and we split harass. He busts up any units, I slip and fuck up mineral lines, into a transition instead of cloakshees (like everyone does?) I go into 3 fac tank push lol
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On August 09 2011 00:49 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: Thats quite hard to read tbh so i split it up a bit.
I personally also do 11 overpool in my games because it saves you against a lot of early cheeses like cannon rushes and proxys. Also, infestors are absolutly awsome! I love them, especially in team games where players attension is more likely to be else where. Also, baneling bombs work quite well, load up 4 overlords with banelings and send 2 to each of you opponents bases and set them up to drop their load right in the mineral line.
Apologize about the wall of text! Was at work and had to hurry it up. I really only get Blings if a Terran is mass Rines, A Zerg mass Lings, or a Toss going Chargelot Archon. Was just a little theory craft going to test if my friend ever gets online. I'm not fond of rushing will do it but not if I don't have to. But then again when I do 6Lings+Spine crawler rush on a Zerg but its not really 'All-in' as I'm droning behind it.
I really like a Toss with a few Phons lifting the most important units Ie: Infestors, Templars, Ghosts, And Tanks. I think my biggest problem in 2v2s is knowing when to expand, Some games I expand to early and lose, Others I expand to late and fall behind on economy. But I guess I'll learn all that as time goes on.
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On August 09 2011 00:38 Nemasyst.598 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 00:27 RockIronrod wrote:On August 09 2011 00:24 Nemasyst.598 wrote: What team composition is best? I feel like a TT team isn't that great, but a TZ or a PZ team is good. Is there a standard "best team composition" though? Against vZ*, ZZ absolutely dominates. One person goes mass speedling, the other roaches, and an attack at 5:30-6:00 when speed finishes is a guaranteed knockout of the Zerg player. Makes sense. But you can't gurantee that a Zerg player will be on the other team, so is there an overall best team comp, or is it just dependent on what your enemy is?
ZT is the best team comp, and the easiest to be good at.
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On August 08 2011 23:20 aztecx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 23:17 Penatronic wrote:On August 08 2011 13:43 Keilah wrote:On July 28 2011 13:49 michaelhasanalias wrote:On July 19 2011 16:58 Xylarthen wrote: On July 19 16:43FreedonNadd wrote On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Can you mine from an allies geyser?
Yes you can. Not if they already laid down an extractor/assimilator/refinery. But yeah, like any other open geyser you can claim it. In 2v2 you can also give each other resources after 4-5 minutes I believe, so if you need alot of gas for High Templar, or Cloaked Banshees, of Mutalisks, your partner can send you a bunch to help you pump out more units of a certain type than you might be able to otherwise. This is great for early Muta harass for example where they might be scared off early when they cannot fight a handful of Marines or a Cannon, but if you were gifted 500 gas I'm sure you can find 5 more Mutas very powerful at 8 minutes when it is common to only see 4-8. This means your partner might be able to focus very strongly on Marines or Zealots to defend on the ground when you have air-control and with minerals you might be able to donate to them. In the beta phases of the game there was a Protoss and Terran 2v2 strategy started that involved letting the Terran grab all 3 bases (Their main and the two expansions) and ramp up their Mules with 6-gas and walling off until transferring everything over to a Protoss player who had made cannons and Stargates until they had a VERY fast 200/200 Void Ray/Carrier army which is usually deadly let alone around 15 Minutes. What he means is that you can make a gas structure and with share control, your ally can mine from YOUR geyser. This is useful in certain timings, such as this example: Around 8-9 supply I send a drone to make a geyser in my Terran ally's base. Because he can mine sooner and without losing the minerals from building (ala sub-5min mineral sharing) he can get hellions out 20-25 seconds faster. It slows my speed/rush/etc by about as much time. ===== Is anyone else extremely disappointed in season 3's 2v2 map pool? It features all of ONE map which doesn't have a shared base+ramp.
I feel like they are promoting 1-base all-ins... very disappointing to say the least. I was really looking forward to some teams this season, but looks like it's back to the 1v1 scene until next season. what are you talking about? shared base/ramp in 2v2 discourages 1 base allins by making the defender's advantage greater. I would loved to see easily taken 3rds for both players, or atleast 3 easily defensible expansions per team... Most maps you get 1-2 for the whole team, kinda blows when you're Zerg v tp and You absolutely want to be up on bases. It seems like they settled for one stupid easy to defend expo, one normal expo, then very few reasonable 3rds, and never for both players. I honestly believe that the only thing stopping zerg from being OP in 2v2 is the fact that it's so hard to grab and hold a third.
What Race(s) do you play? I play random and I absolutely hate playing vs PT in midgame because it almost always is 2 base, which everyone knows means z is behind.
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On August 09 2011 01:43 Penatronic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 23:20 aztecx wrote:On August 08 2011 23:17 Penatronic wrote:On August 08 2011 13:43 Keilah wrote:On July 28 2011 13:49 michaelhasanalias wrote:On July 19 2011 16:58 Xylarthen wrote: On July 19 16:43FreedonNadd wrote On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Can you mine from an allies geyser?
Yes you can. Not if they already laid down an extractor/assimilator/refinery. But yeah, like any other open geyser you can claim it. In 2v2 you can also give each other resources after 4-5 minutes I believe, so if you need alot of gas for High Templar, or Cloaked Banshees, of Mutalisks, your partner can send you a bunch to help you pump out more units of a certain type than you might be able to otherwise. This is great for early Muta harass for example where they might be scared off early when they cannot fight a handful of Marines or a Cannon, but if you were gifted 500 gas I'm sure you can find 5 more Mutas very powerful at 8 minutes when it is common to only see 4-8. This means your partner might be able to focus very strongly on Marines or Zealots to defend on the ground when you have air-control and with minerals you might be able to donate to them. In the beta phases of the game there was a Protoss and Terran 2v2 strategy started that involved letting the Terran grab all 3 bases (Their main and the two expansions) and ramp up their Mules with 6-gas and walling off until transferring everything over to a Protoss player who had made cannons and Stargates until they had a VERY fast 200/200 Void Ray/Carrier army which is usually deadly let alone around 15 Minutes. What he means is that you can make a gas structure and with share control, your ally can mine from YOUR geyser. This is useful in certain timings, such as this example: Around 8-9 supply I send a drone to make a geyser in my Terran ally's base. Because he can mine sooner and without losing the minerals from building (ala sub-5min mineral sharing) he can get hellions out 20-25 seconds faster. It slows my speed/rush/etc by about as much time. ===== Is anyone else extremely disappointed in season 3's 2v2 map pool? It features all of ONE map which doesn't have a shared base+ramp.
I feel like they are promoting 1-base all-ins... very disappointing to say the least. I was really looking forward to some teams this season, but looks like it's back to the 1v1 scene until next season. what are you talking about? shared base/ramp in 2v2 discourages 1 base allins by making the defender's advantage greater. I would loved to see easily taken 3rds for both players, or atleast 3 easily defensible expansions per team... Most maps you get 1-2 for the whole team, kinda blows when you're Zerg v tp and You absolutely want to be up on bases. It seems like they settled for one stupid easy to defend expo, one normal expo, then very few reasonable 3rds, and never for both players. I honestly believe that the only thing stopping zerg from being OP in 2v2 is the fact that it's so hard to grab and hold a third. What Race(s) do you play? I play random and I absolutely hate playing vs PT in midgame because it almost always is 2 base, which everyone knows means z is behind.
So, with a terran ally, drone up, get warren, get roaches, feed terran gas, terran 2 facs and goes tank. Push at 8 minutes with 5 tanks before TP tanks are out, and before they can safely hold 2 bases.
Roach marine tank, there ya go. A good TZ strat vs TP
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My friend and I are attempting to make our way to the top of the SEA ladder over the next few days and we really aren't far off. If anyone is interested, I can upload some replays.
In the meantime, here's an amusing replay which shows why you should never tap out. Please excuse the astronomical screw up with my forcefields. My sentry somehow got stuck a millimetre too far to the right and wouldn't throw down the second FF.
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On August 08 2011 23:20 aztecx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 23:17 Penatronic wrote:On August 08 2011 13:43 Keilah wrote:On July 28 2011 13:49 michaelhasanalias wrote:On July 19 2011 16:58 Xylarthen wrote: On July 19 16:43FreedonNadd wrote On July 19 2011 14:00 CrumpetGuvnor wrote: Hide nested quote - On July 19 2011 11:17 Fuzzwah wrote: Quick tip to any teams with a P player; have your scout probe warp in an assimilator for your team mate. For T, this saves them losing some mining time while their SVC builds and for Z it saves them a drone.
Can you mine from an allies geyser?
Yes you can. Not if they already laid down an extractor/assimilator/refinery. But yeah, like any other open geyser you can claim it. In 2v2 you can also give each other resources after 4-5 minutes I believe, so if you need alot of gas for High Templar, or Cloaked Banshees, of Mutalisks, your partner can send you a bunch to help you pump out more units of a certain type than you might be able to otherwise. This is great for early Muta harass for example where they might be scared off early when they cannot fight a handful of Marines or a Cannon, but if you were gifted 500 gas I'm sure you can find 5 more Mutas very powerful at 8 minutes when it is common to only see 4-8. This means your partner might be able to focus very strongly on Marines or Zealots to defend on the ground when you have air-control and with minerals you might be able to donate to them. In the beta phases of the game there was a Protoss and Terran 2v2 strategy started that involved letting the Terran grab all 3 bases (Their main and the two expansions) and ramp up their Mules with 6-gas and walling off until transferring everything over to a Protoss player who had made cannons and Stargates until they had a VERY fast 200/200 Void Ray/Carrier army which is usually deadly let alone around 15 Minutes. What he means is that you can make a gas structure and with share control, your ally can mine from YOUR geyser. This is useful in certain timings, such as this example: Around 8-9 supply I send a drone to make a geyser in my Terran ally's base. Because he can mine sooner and without losing the minerals from building (ala sub-5min mineral sharing) he can get hellions out 20-25 seconds faster. It slows my speed/rush/etc by about as much time. ===== Is anyone else extremely disappointed in season 3's 2v2 map pool? It features all of ONE map which doesn't have a shared base+ramp.
I feel like they are promoting 1-base all-ins... very disappointing to say the least. I was really looking forward to some teams this season, but looks like it's back to the 1v1 scene until next season. what are you talking about? shared base/ramp in 2v2 discourages 1 base allins by making the defender's advantage greater. I would loved to see easily taken 3rds for both players, or atleast 3 easily defensible expansions per team... Most maps you get 1-2 for the whole team, kinda blows when you're Zerg v tp and You absolutely want to be up on bases. It seems like they settled for one stupid easy to defend expo, one normal expo, then very few reasonable 3rds, and never for both players. I honestly believe that the only thing stopping zerg from being OP in 2v2 is the fact that it's so hard to grab and hold a third. I think it's in the maps: It's often not easy to hold an open natural as non-zerg against speedlings (coupled with the fact that many of the maps don't have particularly good naturals at all) Zerg can handle having open bases more easily.
On the other reason, the openness of many bases and naturals means zerg can have an easier time assaulting them.
Maps with shared bases can be much more difficult for ZX vs XX to handle - too bad they took some of these out, and the ones that are still in have almost nothing resembling a natural expo.
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On August 09 2011 01:40 aztecx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 00:38 Nemasyst.598 wrote:On August 09 2011 00:27 RockIronrod wrote:On August 09 2011 00:24 Nemasyst.598 wrote: What team composition is best? I feel like a TT team isn't that great, but a TZ or a PZ team is good. Is there a standard "best team composition" though? Against vZ*, ZZ absolutely dominates. One person goes mass speedling, the other roaches, and an attack at 5:30-6:00 when speed finishes is a guaranteed knockout of the Zerg player. Makes sense. But you can't gurantee that a Zerg player will be on the other team, so is there an overall best team comp, or is it just dependent on what your enemy is? ZT is the best team comp, and the easiest to be good at. Sweet, thanks ;D
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On August 08 2011 14:08 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +what are you talking about? shared base/ramp in 2v2 discourages 1 base allins by making the defender's advantage greater. Me and my man henry got a TZ strat vs TP or any shared base map where I gas first and reactor rax (looks like sling hellion) but he roaches, and I get 5 tanks + siege out by 7:15 and at enemies base by 8 min. So far it can hold 4 gate + roach, sling hellion, hellion roach. Not only hold, but out right win the game. We were 1k masters team last season (35-23 or something) and so far are 10-1 this season. I actually enjoy facing TP on shared bases. Beyond BALLER phoenix control, the damage will clear their shared base and hits before T can have tanks out. We, as a TZ team, were at a loss vs TP shared base. Not anymore. The henryjeffy 5 tank marine roach push !!! This is actually quite helpful. Thanks for that. Been looking for a way to punish TP with these new shared bases.
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On August 09 2011 01:46 iAmJeffReY wrote: So, with a terran ally, drone up, get warren, get roaches, feed terran gas, terran 2 facs and goes tank. Push at 8 minutes with 5 tanks before TP tanks are out, and before they can safely hold 2 bases.
Roach marine tank, there ya go. A good TZ strat vs TP
Hm.. we're a TP team and top in our master division;
How do you handle a TP doing a faster tank push-contain?
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On August 09 2011 05:12 kardinal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 01:46 iAmJeffReY wrote: So, with a terran ally, drone up, get warren, get roaches, feed terran gas, terran 2 facs and goes tank. Push at 8 minutes with 5 tanks before TP tanks are out, and before they can safely hold 2 bases.
Roach marine tank, there ya go. A good TZ strat vs TP
Hm.. we're a TP team and top in our master division; How do you handle a TP doing a faster tank push-contain?
There are obviously counters to the build, what he's saying is that roach tank with marine support is very strong. Could you put up some replays of you and your partner doing the tank push-contain? I'd quite like to see it
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about me: I'm MisterT, a high diamond zerg in 2v2 RT, but I'm only plat with my friends (AT) because they are trolls. -_______- Anyway, I have some replays for you guys, feel free to critique, learn from, or just enjoy them.
here's a replay showing how the weakness of one unit can be fulfilled by others. In this case, the sim-city and static defense prevented my lings from getting much action. However, my allies tanks pretty much ignores all that crap and we win (obviously).
here's the dreaded double zerg combo doing its thing with some sling/bling action. Not even the unstoppable hellion can stop the unstoppable duo of unstoppability.
here's another dreaded double zerg combing not quite doing its thing with slow lings and no blings. And it gets stopped by the unstoppable hellion, which stops the unstoppable non-duo of unstoppability, which makes it stoppable.
Here, I expanded like crazy and fed all my resources to my BROtoss friend (who happens to be female) who went mass blink stalker. I microed the stalkers a bit and we overcame the unst-, errr annoying combo of mass speedling+MM ball.
More replays later if I feel like playing -____-
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On August 09 2011 07:40 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:There are obviously counters to the build, what he's saying is that roach tank with marine support is very strong. Could you put up some replays of you and your partner doing the tank push-contain? I'd quite like to see it
Unfortunately I only save replays where we mess up badly and need improving and out of them this one was the most "acceptable". I was merely pointing out from before that a 5 tank push will be defeated by an earlier tank push that contains you first unless severe mistakes are made.
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TP is vulnerable to rushes. if you scout well and compensate for rush weakness with extra defense you become very strong during midgame stages.
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Honestly depends on the matchup.
But a hard mass that hits them early ought to be enough for a gg.
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On August 09 2011 02:14 Crysack wrote:My friend and I are attempting to make our way to the top of the SEA ladder over the next few days and we really aren't far off. If anyone is interested, I can upload some replays. In the meantime, here's an amusing replay which shows why you should never tap out. Please excuse the astronomical screw up with my forcefields. My sentry somehow got stuck a millimetre too far to the right and wouldn't throw down the second FF.
I have a fair bit of experience playing against ArtOfLosing because he's one of the few 2v2r players my teams can que against. He's basically just a one trick pony since he goes ling/bling all-in every game. Meta-game him and he's fucked.
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On August 09 2011 19:32 aztecx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 02:14 Crysack wrote:My friend and I are attempting to make our way to the top of the SEA ladder over the next few days and we really aren't far off. If anyone is interested, I can upload some replays. In the meantime, here's an amusing replay which shows why you should never tap out. Please excuse the astronomical screw up with my forcefields. My sentry somehow got stuck a millimetre too far to the right and wouldn't throw down the second FF. I have a fair bit of experience playing against ArtOfLosing because he's one of the few 2v2r players my teams can que against. He's basically just a one trick pony since he goes ling/bling all-in every game. Meta-game him and he's fucked.
Oh don't worry. I've played him several times in 1v1 and 2v2. The first thing I said to my partner at the beginning of the game is 'one of them will baneling bust and the other will roach all-in' - and, what do you know? That's exactly what they did.
He's been kicked out of Grandmasters now too - I guess because everyone figured out that he does the same thing every single game
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Actually me (Zerg) and my Terran buddy have been doing a very similar build against TP on the new shared base maps. We're currently 15w 1l in our master division on EU. This is how we roll:
Terran gets a refinery before barracks and then builds a factory immediately, followed by a reactor on the barracks. If we see they are not walling in (which is silly), he'll get hellions. If not, he'll get a tech lab and rush tanks with siege mode plus marine support. Usually we move out when siege mode is finished and his third tank hits the field.
Because TP doesn't have a lot of very scary very early rushes, I feel safe to go hatchery first on these big shared base maps. I like to go 15 hatchery 16 extractor 16 pool and get metabolic boost immediately, so I can have speed at a reasonable time (before 6:00) in case we decide to go speedling/hellion. If they have a wall, I will drone up to +/- 30 while still mining gas, while making double queens and a roach warren, then start saving up resources and supply for roaches. I like to get all my roaches in one or two big pumps and move out with them immediately. Because of the distances involved, I usually cut roach production after my first wave and switch into mass speedlings to help defend our tanks. The tank line coupled with my quick reinforcements are usually enough to seal the deal.
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I've been struggling with TZ vs TT recently. It's very difficult to do most timing attacks vs TT teams, and tanks counts get high very, very quickly. Also, I really don't know how to play when big tank lines get set up.
Also, transience, I really like that build, especially the 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool, which is one of my favorite builds vs any team with protoss that isn't proxying or cannon rushing.
On August 09 2011 00:39 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 00:24 Nemasyst.598 wrote: What team composition is best? I feel like a TT team isn't that great, but a TZ or a PZ team is good. Is there a standard "best team composition" though? Its generally accepted that you need a zerg. And the you dont want teams of two of the same race. Esp not PP TZ is currently ranked highest on the points list, however that may be due to the fact that those guys are very good. Pretty much PZ or TZ is accepted as being the best. But its not like you cant do well without it. Im masters with over 50-50 win rate with TP I'm not so sure about this. I think a lot of this attitude is a hold-over from Broodwar where zerg was considered very strong, even necessary, as part of a 2v2 team. TZ early game can be really strong, but zerg mid-late doesn't fair as well against the large numbers of big splash units that come into play (tanks, collosi, etc).
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On August 10 2011 09:53 Lobotomist wrote:I've been struggling with TZ vs TT recently. It's very difficult to do most timing attacks vs TT teams, and tanks counts get high very, very quickly. Also, I really don't know how to play when big tank lines get set up. Also, transience, I really like that build, especially the 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool, which is one of my favorite builds vs any team with protoss that isn't proxying or cannon rushing. Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 00:39 Squigly wrote:On August 09 2011 00:24 Nemasyst.598 wrote: What team composition is best? I feel like a TT team isn't that great, but a TZ or a PZ team is good. Is there a standard "best team composition" though? Its generally accepted that you need a zerg. And the you dont want teams of two of the same race. Esp not PP TZ is currently ranked highest on the points list, however that may be due to the fact that those guys are very good. Pretty much PZ or TZ is accepted as being the best. But its not like you cant do well without it. Im masters with over 50-50 win rate with TP I'm not so sure about this. I think a lot of this attitude is a hold-over from Broodwar where zerg was considered very strong, even necessary, as part of a 2v2 team. TZ early game can be really strong, but zerg mid-late doesn't fair as well against the large numbers of big splash units that come into play (tanks, collosi, etc).
It's a hold over from.... a season ago when you didn't have enough vetos to remove split-base maps from the pool which were next to impossible TP/PP vs TZ/PZ with zergs abiltiy to split people early and then get fast high-ground sight for your ranged-ally to destroy the frontal wall.
It's a lot better now, there are only a few in a pool where you can do that and you have enough vetos to remove them, but prior it was just easier to play with a Z then not.
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On August 09 2011 20:34 transience wrote: Because TP doesn't have a lot of very scary very early rushes, I feel safe to go hatchery first on these big shared base maps. I like to go 15 hatchery 16 extractor 16 pool and get metabolic boost immediately, so I can have speed at a reasonable time (before 6:00) in case we decide to go speedling/hellion. If they have a wall, I will drone up to +/- 30 while still mining gas, while making double queens and a roach warren, then start saving up resources and supply for roaches. I like to get all my roaches in one or two big pumps and move out with them immediately. Because of the distances involved, I usually cut roach production after my first wave and switch into mass speedlings to help defend our tanks. The tank line coupled with my quick reinforcements are usually enough to seal the deal.
We run TP and are #3 in our masters division. To counter the quick hatch I toss down a quick forge and 1 cannon the expo hatch. Work 80% of the time, then we use this to toss down our own nats.
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On August 10 2011 11:40 Aqtinic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 20:34 transience wrote: Because TP doesn't have a lot of very scary very early rushes, I feel safe to go hatchery first on these big shared base maps. I like to go 15 hatchery 16 extractor 16 pool and get metabolic boost immediately, so I can have speed at a reasonable time (before 6:00) in case we decide to go speedling/hellion. If they have a wall, I will drone up to +/- 30 while still mining gas, while making double queens and a roach warren, then start saving up resources and supply for roaches. I like to get all my roaches in one or two big pumps and move out with them immediately. Because of the distances involved, I usually cut roach production after my first wave and switch into mass speedlings to help defend our tanks. The tank line coupled with my quick reinforcements are usually enough to seal the deal. We run TP and are #3 in our masters division. To counter the quick hatch I toss down a quick forge and 1 cannon the expo hatch. Work 80% of the time, then we use this to toss down our own nats.
I wouldn't mind seeing a replay of that. When we see a hatch first (TP as well) we usually just calmly follow through with our tank/gateway push - or whatever we had decided upon in the first place, and expo while moving out.
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I would to like to request TP vs anything please I am stuck in mid-masters with my partner because we just don't really know how to play TP together. Thanks a lot.
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2P vs. X
1P 4 gate or 3 gate blink stalkers rush (if 4 gate, just build stalkers) 1P 3 gate pure sentry with halluciations, then FE. (get charge lots also)
1st push coming ~6min (depending if got rushed by zerg). Hallucinate 2-3 voidrays, 2 immortals. and go in. Only lost once of 10 matches last season doing this strat. Diamond level. :-). What's hard is 2Pv2Z both doing 7 pools T_T
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Hello. Nearly a week since the last post for this thread! Where are all the 2v2 players!?
Just played this interesting game a couple of minuites ago so thought i'd upload it for you all Warning, it's a long game!
+ Show Spoiler +Starts with 2 7RR and then goes into a macro fest
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Played some games today, top of the ladder pretty much.
TP: open 2 gate voids and BFH marauder TZ: 14 14 into roach and expand and 3 rax Low supplies all game, barely expo till near the end. I find that even if you get contained to 1 base and your oppenent expands, there is still much larger chance of winning than if it had happened in a 1v1.
Go mech and bio, vs a fastish muta, very back and forth. I kind of get carried in this game.
Vs. a team with a zerg, most of the time they will try and break down your wall early and flood with speedlings for the kill. We have to bunker off or else you WILL die.
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On August 30 2011 09:53 Vanchen wrote:Played some games today, top of the ladder pretty much. TP: open 2 gate voids and BFH marauder TZ: 14 14 into roach and expand and 3 rax Low supplies all game, barely expo till near the end. I find that even if you get contained to 1 base and your oppenent expands, there is still much larger chance of winning than if it had happened in a 1v1. Go mech and bio, vs a fastish muta, very back and forth. I kind of get carried in this game. Vs. a team with a zerg, most of the time they will try and break down your wall early and flood with speedlings for the kill. We have to bunker off or else you WILL die.
Ha your partner is a dick. You macro so much better, and he whines.
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Ling and 6 rax vs 2gat roach opening
3rax-ling vs dual 4 gates
Mech contain into Tier 3 battle
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So, this is both a really noob and really general question, but I'm not sure where else to ask it.
A friend and I play a fair number of 2v2s, pretty damn badly, but I'm always at a loss as to how to actually respond to things. I find myself thinking in terms of 1v1 builds and timings, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I feel like I have no game sense and no real idea how I should be adapting what I do, and how it should be different.
I generally end up calling strats etc, since my partner's like silver, but I often find myself telling him to expand/drone/roach at the worst possible times because those times would be appropriate to 1v1 but really don't work 2v2.
So in short... are there any good, general build resources or overviews floating around out there? We're usually PZ, and I don't have too many replays of that combo, nor any idea of how to analyse decision-making processes if I did.
ftr I'm dia 1v1, so I at least have a very basic understanding of how stuff works. I'm failing hard at adapting to 2v2, though.
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On August 30 2011 12:04 Belisarius wrote: So, this is both a really noob and really general question, but I'm not sure where else to ask it.
A friend and I play a fair number of 2v2s, pretty damn badly, but I'm always at a loss as to how to actually respond to things. I find myself thinking in terms of 1v1 builds and timings, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I feel like I have no game sense and no real idea how I should be adapting what I do, and how it should be different.
I generally end up calling strats etc, since my partner's like silver, but I often find myself telling him to expand/drone/roach at the worst possible times because those times would be appropriate to 1v1 but really don't work 2v2.
So in short... are there any good, general build resources or overviews floating around out there? We're usually PZ, and I don't have too many replays of that combo, nor any idea of how to analyse decision-making processes if I did.
ftr I'm dia 1v1, so I at least have a very basic understanding of how stuff works. I'm failing hard at adapting to 2v2, though.
I'd recommend Mute's High Masters replays, he does PT and PZ and his PT really helped me iron out a lot of my 2v2 decision making.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=239631
The important thing is to remember that you're not playing 2 1v1's, something that would be considered all-in in 1v1 might just be half of a long-term focused play in 2v2, also you're not just holding a single all-in now, you're might have to hold DOUBLE all-ins, so if you're both doing a build in 1v1 that is designed to let you expand, you will die when they double-all in, as a general rule, one player doing an army focused 1 base, while the other does a normal expand build or a tech build works out pretty well.
Finding the combination which really synergize well though is tougher, as they can do so in surprising ways. Ling/Hellion into banshee is a classic all in+tech setup but the ability for the lings to split opponents early, and for the lings and hellions to compliment each other early, while being effective against most early-game anti-air and THEN the banshee's being good against things that are good vs Ling/hellion really would have been difficult to figure out.
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I went on an 11 game winning streak with my friend. We jumped from rank 50 diamond to rank 1 after all those games but we were beating teamed masters fairly easily.
As a protoss player, primary build I used was defensive 4 gate and having 1 sentry, 2 zealot, 1 stalker when my warpgate completes and dropping gates at 27/34 supply. While my ally goes for a 2 rax, 1 fact, marine tank build.
I believe that this build is quite powerful because we have Tanks for the AoE, Marines for DPS (especially against lings) and I can alter my army composition of zealot, sentry, stalker to cater for the situation and matchups. Our general hit time is about 7-7:30, usually moving out when 2 tanks are in our army and siege mode completed.
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On August 30 2011 14:58 Zariel wrote: I went on an 11 game winning streak with my friend. We jumped from rank 50 diamond to rank 1 after all those games but we were beating teamed masters fairly easily.
As a protoss player, primary build I used was defensive 4 gate and having 1 sentry, 2 zealot, 1 stalker when my warpgate completes and dropping gates at 27/34 supply. While my ally goes for a 2 rax, 1 fact, marine tank build.
I believe that this build is quite powerful because we have Tanks for the AoE, Marines for DPS (especially against lings) and I can alter my army composition of zealot, sentry, stalker to cater for the situation and matchups. Our general hit time is about 7-7:30, usually moving out when 2 tanks are in our army and siege mode completed.
4gate is massive overkill in my opinion. Most of my openings are some form of 3gate (unless I do something with a stargate or something) and they hold pretty much everything.
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On August 30 2011 15:35 Crysack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 14:58 Zariel wrote: I went on an 11 game winning streak with my friend. We jumped from rank 50 diamond to rank 1 after all those games but we were beating teamed masters fairly easily.
As a protoss player, primary build I used was defensive 4 gate and having 1 sentry, 2 zealot, 1 stalker when my warpgate completes and dropping gates at 27/34 supply. While my ally goes for a 2 rax, 1 fact, marine tank build.
I believe that this build is quite powerful because we have Tanks for the AoE, Marines for DPS (especially against lings) and I can alter my army composition of zealot, sentry, stalker to cater for the situation and matchups. Our general hit time is about 7-7:30, usually moving out when 2 tanks are in our army and siege mode completed.
4gate is massive overkill in my opinion. Most of my openings are some form of 3gate (unless I do something with a stargate or something) and they hold pretty much everything.
teams on SEA are VERY shit, so I find that strats that work at the higher end of SEA will most likely not work at the mid-high end of NA masters or against top-tier SEA teams (i.e. season 1 and 2 masters pre-hotfix level).
Droneinabox and I were 78% over 200~ games last season as ZP, and we had a lot of trouble holding GnSsssk and his tm's 4g + ling/bling all in when Drone opened 3gate. So while against most teams 3gate will hold pretty much everything, against top-tier teams on SEA (which are rare) or high-master teams on NA you will often have trouble. The reason being, once you take out the skill factor and likelihood of a team making mistakes, the games become far more build-orientated and on paper a 3g+ling or roach can't hold a 4gate+ling/bling all-in.
Sorry I kind of wrote that using a ZP v ZP game as an example, but the same thing applies to different race combinations versing any team with a P that opens 3g. I understand that there are factors such as defenders advantage that help the 3g out, but against stronger teams those factors make much less of a difference.
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On August 30 2011 12:04 Belisarius wrote: So, this is both a really noob and really general question, but I'm not sure where else to ask it.
A friend and I play a fair number of 2v2s, pretty damn badly, but I'm always at a loss as to how to actually respond to things. I find myself thinking in terms of 1v1 builds and timings, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I feel like I have no game sense and no real idea how I should be adapting what I do, and how it should be different.
I generally end up calling strats etc, since my partner's like silver, but I often find myself telling him to expand/drone/roach at the worst possible times because those times would be appropriate to 1v1 but really don't work 2v2.
So in short... are there any good, general build resources or overviews floating around out there? We're usually PZ, and I don't have too many replays of that combo, nor any idea of how to analyse decision-making processes if I did.
ftr I'm dia 1v1, so I at least have a very basic understanding of how stuff works. I'm failing hard at adapting to 2v2, though.
I played some 2v2 games with a protoss ally about a week ago, we did 4 placement matches trying different things out in each. As long as your pushes are nicely timed to work with eachother you should be alright. For example me going for a 7RR + ling all in and him doing a 3gate into blink stalker. The 7RR gets to the enemy base just as warpgates come online. Then later on overlords are in possition for blinks straight into the main.
The biggest problem with 2v2 that alot of players have is scouting. With a ZP team you want overlords spread out across the map and you should be leaving a ling in key possitions, later on get an overseer and send in changelings. Protoss has observers and in team games alot of people forget that they could be being watched by that little map hack T.T
If you have good scouting then you can see their army size and composion, when (if) they expand. From that you can decide what to do. If you see 7 barracks and no expo your not going to tell your zerg ally to expand are you? I'll try remember to post the placement games i played when i get back, work for another.... 4hrs 7mins and 17 seconds
We have not played our final placement so can't say what league we are in as a team, but we're both part of a few masters teams, mainly plat/diamond team for me tho.
BTW! I meant to say this a couple of weeks ago. Theres a guy on YouTube, IrieStarcraft. He does commentary for alot of team games, i think he's got something like 5k subs (can't check since im 'working'). He's posted alot of really high level 2v2 games, mostly on the North America server. Definatly worth a look if you like 2v2
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I second the Iriestarcraft suggestion. He's not day[9], but his access to great games is unparalleled. Definitely the pre-eminent 2v2 caster. There are also some pro games on sc2casts which you can find that won't be on IrieStarcraft. It'll be a lot of FXOptikZero/Select, AxSlav/Cheese, Catz/Drewbie as opposed to Protech / Sorcery / MegumixBear etc. I'd say IrieStarcraft, you find a lot of canonical timing pushes i.e. roach marine, bling/stalker, blah blah, whereas with the pro-games you get a lot more risk-taking / diverse / dare I say creative strategies.
To whoever said it above, I also don't think it's right to expand @ 15 against a PT team. Back when we used to play, I was part of a top 10 NA arranged team and we never, ever had a problem applying early pressure. The newer maps are largely smaller, even if they have expansions in-base it's not a problem to show up to your door step with 3 fast rax or 6 rax rine + zealot / sentry into stalker.
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Hello, just noticed that in the OP there is a 'note to self' to add pictures for the new maps, since over dinner all those weeks ago Eternal Dalek must have forgotten to add them in... here you go!
New 2v2 Maps:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
I actually really like these maps despite them being shared bases because they are not impossible to attack into, also the in base natural is a nice touch, for one of the players, and should stop games like we used to see on twilight fortruss where everyone would just turtle on 2 bases and never move out -_-
i haven't played any 2v2 for a while but when i do i'll be sure to post replays. Also, if there are any ZP teams out there could you post some replays, i rarely get to play with a P ally and when i do they usually do some stupid tech rush and then flame me when they get attacked
Edit: Patch 1.4 will have some effect on 2v2 games, the most noticable changes for 2v2 are:
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1. This will make many early rushes more difficult and also scouting a little harder as you can't see as far into the base when you send a ling/marine etc.
Mothership: Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375. Motherships are more common in team games then in 1v1 so this may see mothership rushes become more popular
Warp Prism: Shields increased from 40 to 100. Could we finially see drop play by Protoss?
Hellion: Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. This will make ling/hellion a weaker combination for ZT teams and hopefully put an end to the ling/hellion vs ling/hellion wars in ZTvZT
Ultralisk: Build time decreased from 70 to 55. Same deal with the mothership, people will get excited and rush for them
Infestors, 2 changes for the infestor: 1. Infestor: Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored) 2. Neural Parasited units will now retain their weapons upgrades. This will make NP'ed colossi and tanks / thors alot more powerful, and should cause protoss to think twice before upgrading to +3 attack before even starting armor level 1. This makes FG a little weaker and NP a little stronger so expect to see infestors being used for more then just fungal growth and infested terran spam
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Here's some more games played today. I think I lost a couple. One of them was dSelect and OptikZero practicing for the PTSL T_T.
Select and optikzero go for proxies but select walls in my zerg ally preventing any help to arrive.
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On August 31 2011 21:26 aztecx wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 31 2011 20:48 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Also, if there are any ZP teams out there could you post some replays, i rarely get to play with a P ally and when i do they usually do some stupid tech rush and then flame me when they get attacked Here are a few older games that I have saved on my PC of me and my partner playing ZP. We are one of the (imo) top 3 ZP teams on the SEA server with a record of something like 150-40 last season. I don't really save any of my replays so these are all I've got. I'm not sure how much you will learn from these games since we're not doing any sort of lame all-ins, but you get to see how a top level ZP team functions and what sort of unit combination's we opt for. The top two games are against sick teams, that have my respect (which is hard to get haha).
I watched all your games last night between playing some of my own. Just some of my thought on those games
Game 1 The hellion immortal push, i'd never of thought of that and was surprised you held it off with the roach gateway mix. Im not sure about the decision to go with chargelots when there were that many hellions because they just got kitted, but i see why you did it. Overall a very good game
Game 2 In this game i was so busy watching the back and forth action i missed the Blue players triple expand. The only reason you won that game was the fungal storm combo destroying the red players bio leaving the tanks undefended
Game 3 New ally for this game, opponents tried to cheese with a 7pool DT rush, which failed hard ^^
Game 4 Game ends with collosus broodlord! The ultimate anti ground army!
A couple of questions for when your playing as a ZP team. Do you always go 2 or 3 gate robo into collosus or does it depend on the opponents races and what your ally is going for? Also, as a zerg player if im playing with a P ally what do you think the best opener is?
I typically do some sort of roach rush and then either mass lings and attack or expand behind our pressure
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On September 01 2011 18:55 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 21:26 aztecx wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 31 2011 20:48 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Also, if there are any ZP teams out there could you post some replays, i rarely get to play with a P ally and when i do they usually do some stupid tech rush and then flame me when they get attacked Here are a few older games that I have saved on my PC of me and my partner playing ZP. We are one of the (imo) top 3 ZP teams on the SEA server with a record of something like 150-40 last season. I don't really save any of my replays so these are all I've got. I'm not sure how much you will learn from these games since we're not doing any sort of lame all-ins, but you get to see how a top level ZP team functions and what sort of unit combination's we opt for. The top two games are against sick teams, that have my respect (which is hard to get haha). I watched all your games last night between playing some of my own. Just some of my thought on those games Game 1 The hellion immortal push, i'd never of thought of that and was surprised you held it off with the roach gateway mix. Im not sure about the decision to go with chargelots when there were that many hellions because they just got kitted, but i see why you did it. Overall a very good game Game 2 In this game i was so busy watching the back and forth action i missed the Blue players triple expand. The only reason you won that game was the fungal storm combo destroying the red players bio leaving the tanks undefended Game 3 New ally for this game, opponents tried to cheese with a 7pool DT rush, which failed hard ^^ Game 4 Game ends with collosus broodlord! The ultimate anti ground army! A couple of questions for when your playing as a ZP team. Do you always go 2 or 3 gate robo into collosus or does it depend on the opponents races and what your ally is going for? Also, as a zerg player if im playing with a P ally what do you think the best opener is? I typically do some sort of roach rush and then either mass lings and attack or expand behind our pressure
Erm i'm the zerg in all these games.
Game 1 There really isn't any optimum army combination available to us at the time that can effectively hold the push, so we have to make do with roach/gw. I think maybe more spines would have worked wonders?
Game 2 This is probably one of my favourite games. I feel like you can learn so much from this game about ZP in general. The reason we had such a difficult time is not because we played bad, but because the other team played very fking well. To beat them we had to use basically every trick in our book. Notice the zerg army maneuvering after the first EMP goes off on the P army to buy time. Watch how we break the terran contain. There is even that giant battle by the west xel-naga tower where I may have made a critical mistake by not helping my teammate out (or was it not a mistake?). You can learn so much more if you really pay attention to the finer details, and try to understand the logic behind all our actions. I know it's hard through a replay, but there is a lot more to the game than just pressing buttons to build a bunch of units and then a-moving in the direction of your enemy base
We do have a number of different openings, but our main style of play is very passive and responsive and focuses on my teammate teching to collo. The reason being is that his 1-base collo is absolutely BEAST, and that plus our ability to defend *almost* all early pressure together makes it a very viable strat. I don't think it is something that you want to do in 2v2r though because I highly doubt you'll be able to find anyone short of a top-10 player that will be able to pull it off. Anyone can tech to 1-base collo, but whether or not they can defend an early all-in while doing it is another story.
Zerg openings for ZP
8p - If P is going to cage. 10p - There is almost no reason to do this build unless your teammate is going for some form of cheese play (proxy 10/10, OL warp play) and you need map control + aggression. 13p 13g - Do this against any team that has a Z, unless a later pool is scouted, in which case taking an extra drone and going 14p is optimum. This build is basically the same as a 10p, just lings and speed are out a tiny bit later. The 3 extra drones give you so much more income and increase your versatility by a SHIT load. 14p 14g (or 14g 14p) - Use this against any team that doesn't have a zerg.
I understand that the norm these days is 14g 14p which I think is fine. The reason I like to 13p 13g against any Z team is because the lings come out just in time to defend most early pools (in particular 10p).
My advise to you if you're playing zerg in 2v2r is to base your strategy on what your teammate is doing. For example, if your teammate decides to 4g, then go ling/bling all-in. If your teammate says that he is going blink stalkers, then either ling/bling or sling expo with plenty of lings to help the stalkers. If your teammate wants to go 3g robo and quick tech to collo, then think about getting roaches since they're really good fodder. The reason I say base your opening on your teammate is that Zerg is a supportive race in 2v2. Your goal should be through synergy to amplify the effectiveness of your teammates opening.
Why not just go ling/bling and ask your teammate to 4gate for an easy win? Because one thing I have learned through hundreds of 2v2r games is to NEVER ask your teammate to do anything they're not 100% comfortable with. It is best to just let them do what they're best at, and compliment them through your play. I have played with masters players on both NA and SEA who can't even 4gate properly, yet alone execute a build order more complicated than a 4g. There are obviously some good players around, and once you figure out who they are there is nothing stopping you from executing more complicated strategies in a game of 2v2r.
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On August 30 2011 15:56 aztecx wrote: we had a lot of trouble holding GnSsssk and his tm's 4g + ling/bling all in
Really?
Honestly, I don't think we've lost to GnSsssk and his team-mate yet - although, they seem to switch up between all three races so I'm not entirely sure whether we've faced their ZP combination.
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On September 02 2011 12:17 Crysack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 15:56 aztecx wrote: we had a lot of trouble holding GnSsssk and his tm's 4g + ling/bling all in Really? Honestly, I don't think we've lost to GnSsssk and his team-mate yet - although, they seem to switch up between all three races so I'm not entirely sure whether we've faced their ZP combination.
Well that's not really saying much. Do you play ZP as well?
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On September 02 2011 13:52 aztecx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 12:17 Crysack wrote:On August 30 2011 15:56 aztecx wrote: we had a lot of trouble holding GnSsssk and his tm's 4g + ling/bling all in Really? Honestly, I don't think we've lost to GnSsssk and his team-mate yet - although, they seem to switch up between all three races so I'm not entirely sure whether we've faced their ZP combination. Well that's not really saying much. Do you play ZP as well?
No, we play TP - which is undoubtedly stronger on defence.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2011 03:23 aztecx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2011 18:55 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:On August 31 2011 21:26 aztecx wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 31 2011 20:48 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Also, if there are any ZP teams out there could you post some replays, i rarely get to play with a P ally and when i do they usually do some stupid tech rush and then flame me when they get attacked Here are a few older games that I have saved on my PC of me and my partner playing ZP. We are one of the (imo) top 3 ZP teams on the SEA server with a record of something like 150-40 last season. I don't really save any of my replays so these are all I've got. I'm not sure how much you will learn from these games since we're not doing any sort of lame all-ins, but you get to see how a top level ZP team functions and what sort of unit combination's we opt for. The top two games are against sick teams, that have my respect (which is hard to get haha). I watched all your games last night between playing some of my own. Just some of my thought on those games Game 1 The hellion immortal push, i'd never of thought of that and was surprised you held it off with the roach gateway mix. Im not sure about the decision to go with chargelots when there were that many hellions because they just got kitted, but i see why you did it. Overall a very good game Game 2 In this game i was so busy watching the back and forth action i missed the Blue players triple expand. The only reason you won that game was the fungal storm combo destroying the red players bio leaving the tanks undefended Game 3 New ally for this game, opponents tried to cheese with a 7pool DT rush, which failed hard ^^ Game 4 Game ends with collosus broodlord! The ultimate anti ground army! A couple of questions for when your playing as a ZP team. Do you always go 2 or 3 gate robo into collosus or does it depend on the opponents races and what your ally is going for? Also, as a zerg player if im playing with a P ally what do you think the best opener is? I typically do some sort of roach rush and then either mass lings and attack or expand behind our pressure Erm i'm the zerg in all these games. Game 1 There really isn't any optimum army combination available to us at the time that can effectively hold the push, so we have to make do with roach/gw. I think maybe more spines would have worked wonders? Game 2 This is probably one of my favourite games. I feel like you can learn so much from this game about ZP in general. The reason we had such a difficult time is not because we played bad, but because the other team played very fking well. To beat them we had to use basically every trick in our book. Notice the zerg army maneuvering after the first EMP goes off on the P army to buy time. Watch how we break the terran contain. There is even that giant battle by the west xel-naga tower where I may have made a critical mistake by not helping my teammate out (or was it not a mistake?). You can learn so much more if you really pay attention to the finer details, and try to understand the logic behind all our actions. I know it's hard through a replay, but there is a lot more to the game than just pressing buttons to build a bunch of units and then a-moving in the direction of your enemy base We do have a number of different openings, but our main style of play is very passive and responsive and focuses on my teammate teching to collo. The reason being is that his 1-base collo is absolutely BEAST, and that plus our ability to defend *almost* all early pressure together makes it a very viable strat. I don't think it is something that you want to do in 2v2r though because I highly doubt you'll be able to find anyone short of a top-10 player that will be able to pull it off. Anyone can tech to 1-base collo, but whether or not they can defend an early all-in while doing it is another story. Zerg openings for ZP8p - If P is going to cage. 10p - There is almost no reason to do this build unless your teammate is going for some form of cheese play (proxy 10/10, OL warp play) and you need map control + aggression. 13p 13g - Do this against any team that has a Z, unless a later pool is scouted, in which case taking an extra drone and going 14p is optimum. This build is basically the same as a 10p, just lings and speed are out a tiny bit later. The 3 extra drones give you so much more income and increase your versatility by a SHIT load. 14p 14g (or 14g 14p) - Use this against any team that doesn't have a zerg. I understand that the norm these days is 14g 14p which I think is fine. The reason I like to 13p 13g against any Z team is because the lings come out just in time to defend most early pools (in particular 10p). My advise to you if you're playing zerg in 2v2r is to base your strategy on what your teammate is doing. For example, if your teammate decides to 4g, then go ling/bling all-in. If your teammate says that he is going blink stalkers, then either ling/bling or sling expo with plenty of lings to help the stalkers. If your teammate wants to go 3g robo and quick tech to collo, then think about getting roaches since they're really good fodder. The reason I say base your opening on your teammate is that Zerg is a supportive race in 2v2. Your goal should be through synergy to amplify the effectiveness of your teammates opening. Why not just go ling/bling and ask your teammate to 4gate for an easy win? Because one thing I have learned through hundreds of 2v2r games is to NEVER ask your teammate to do anything they're not 100% comfortable with. It is best to just let them do what they're best at, and compliment them through your play. I have played with masters players on both NA and SEA who can't even 4gate properly, yet alone execute a build order more complicated than a 4g. There are obviously some good players around, and once you figure out who they are there is nothing stopping you from executing more complicated strategies in a game of 2v2r.
I thought that you were the Zerg tbh until i watched game 3 because that had a different Z player but the same P ^^
Thanks for the amazing advice, i did notice in the second game where you moved your army after the EMP to block, i guess i just got a bit too fixated on the fungal + storm moments destroying the larger terran armies. And yes, they were both playing VERY well, i really thought you wouldn't win when they had the contain ^^
Im plat for 2v2r atm something like 12th in my devision and alot of the players i get put with will not say a word while playing so i have to try and guess what they're going for by watching their build order and placement :/ no exactly ideal. You also get the players who want to FE or fast tech leaving me to try and defend a 2v1 because they have zero army.
I usually either 11p or 14g14p, i think i might start going 13g13p from now on though. I also like to play very passive in 1v1 game, absorbing the punches and then snapping necks when the push a little too hard. One thing i did notice after watching all your games is that neither of you really harassed the opponents, is your goal to just get a supperior army and eco to win games? I tend to do a fair bit of harass while building an army, baneling drops in the mineral line, burrowed infestors for IT and FG, ling run bys. I only use units which i already have the tech for so im not cutting into my army massively by harassing.
In alot of army battles that i remember unless our combined army is bigger i tend to find that my army will die MUCH quicker then my allies despite better upgrades and possitioning, is that just the way it should be, zerg providing the meat shield while protoss deals the damage?
On a side note For anyone interested in 2v2 and wants to play for more then just ladder points, check this blog out and give the guy some feedback. He's thinking about hosting a regular online tourniment and wants to hear from the 2v2 community. I believe he's on the NA server but theres nothing stopping these events from happening on the other servers as well.
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On September 02 2011 16:16 Crysack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 13:52 aztecx wrote:On September 02 2011 12:17 Crysack wrote:On August 30 2011 15:56 aztecx wrote: we had a lot of trouble holding GnSsssk and his tm's 4g + ling/bling all in Really? Honestly, I don't think we've lost to GnSsssk and his team-mate yet - although, they seem to switch up between all three races so I'm not entirely sure whether we've faced their ZP combination. Well that's not really saying much. Do you play ZP as well? No, we play TP - which is undoubtedly stronger on defence.
It has nothing to do with TP being stronger in defense. What I was saying is that their opening is pretty much the hard-counter to what we do. The reason I used them as an example is because until you are versing a team that is comparable in skill, you can't really tell if what you are doing is working or you're just playing shit players. We can defend the same build executed by a weaker team because of the difference in skill, but once that skill plateau's between teams the game becomes far more build-order oriented. On paper, I don't think our build should be able to win verse theirs.
The only reason I'll go into so much detail about or strats is that I don't think we'll be playing 2v2 on the SEA server again since it's so dead and the teams are so shit. Last season both my ZP teams (Droneinabox and ToRqC/CheeseKing) had an average wait of 15-20 mins while my team with Phunnat had an average wait of around 25mins for a game. Looking at the 2v2 ladder right now it seems that it is even more dead than before so fuck waiting 30 mins to spend 5 minutes curb stomping some 'masters' noobs.
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well.. 2on2 is great fun, but in master league our Zerg/Protoss team dont stand a chance vs Terran/Zerg teams.
Like Speedling + Reapers were deadly some patches ago. Speedling + Helion nearly does the same job. They are super mobile and a perfect counter to everything available in the early stage of the game. Same goes for 2Rax Rauders + Speedling - Protoss wall? np for early Rauders with vision by overlords.
And did u ever try to engage a lategame force of T&Z? Broodlords, supported by tanks and ravens with point defense drones + infestors?
srsly i dont get the point of this matchup ^^
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On September 03 2011 05:05 Ulumulu wrote: well.. 2on2 is great fun, but in master league our Zerg/Protoss team dont stand a chance vs Terran/Zerg teams.
Like Speedling + Reapers were deadly some patches ago. Speedling + Helion nearly does the same job. They are super mobile and a perfect counter to everything available in the early stage of the game. Same goes for 2Rax Rauders + Speedling - Protoss wall? np for early Rauders with vision by overlords.
And did u ever try to engage a lategame force of T&Z? Broodlords, supported by tanks and ravens with point defense drones + infestors?
srsly i dont get the point of this matchup ^^ I can see how this is hard to hold on split base maps but do you have trouble with it on shared base maps as well?
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On September 02 2011 20:43 aztecx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:16 Crysack wrote:On September 02 2011 13:52 aztecx wrote:On September 02 2011 12:17 Crysack wrote:On August 30 2011 15:56 aztecx wrote: we had a lot of trouble holding GnSsssk and his tm's 4g + ling/bling all in Really? Honestly, I don't think we've lost to GnSsssk and his team-mate yet - although, they seem to switch up between all three races so I'm not entirely sure whether we've faced their ZP combination. Well that's not really saying much. Do you play ZP as well? No, we play TP - which is undoubtedly stronger on defence. It has nothing to do with TP being stronger in defense. What I was saying is that their opening is pretty much the hard-counter to what we do. The reason I used them as an example is because until you are versing a team that is comparable in skill, you can't really tell if what you are doing is working or you're just playing shit players. We can defend the same build executed by a weaker team because of the difference in skill, but once that skill plateau's between teams the game becomes far more build-order oriented. On paper, I don't think our build should be able to win verse theirs. The only reason I'll go into so much detail about or strats is that I don't think we'll be playing 2v2 on the SEA server again since it's so dead and the teams are so shit. Last season both my ZP teams (Droneinabox and ToRqC/CheeseKing) had an average wait of 15-20 mins while my team with Phunnat had an average wait of around 25mins for a game. Looking at the 2v2 ladder right now it seems that it is even more dead than before so fuck waiting 30 mins to spend 5 minutes curb stomping some 'masters' noobs.
Pretty unfortunate that this dude got himself banned for what was apparently some kind of kellymilkies sex-blog. I was actually really enjoying his analysis. Just goes to show.
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On September 05 2011 11:48 Belisarius wrote: Pretty unfortunate that this dude got himself banned for what was apparently some kind of kellymilkies sex-blog. I was actually really enjoying his analysis. Just goes to show.
Honestly, I wasn't going to mention it, but I've run into this guy several times on ladder, and all I've seen from him is roach-rushing and then abuse towards his team-mate when he loses.
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Fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised to find he's a bit of a tool, but I did feel like he was making a pretty constructive contribution to this thread. The replays he posted show he can at least do things other than roach rush.
Any other helpful top masters PZs out there that aren't going to get themselves perma'd? lol.
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On September 05 2011 14:56 Belisarius wrote: Fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised to find he's a bit of a tool, but I did feel like he was making a pretty constructive contribution to this thread. The replays he posted show he can at least do things other than roach rush.
Any other helpful top masters PZs out there that aren't going to get themselves perma'd? lol.
Well, I just started up a new PZ team with a friend, but we're only in Diamond as yet, since we just finished our placements. We did, however, come up with a somewhat interesting 1/1 blink stalker/roach/ling timing attack by accident last night which absolutely rolled two Masters zergs.
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On September 03 2011 07:13 locopuyo wrote:I can see how this is hard to hold on split base maps but do you have trouble with it on shared base maps as well?
On shared bases we can hold the first pressure the most time, but keep in mind that i have to use all my chronoboost for 2gate stalkers, mb cut some probes - My zergmate isnt able to secure an expansion on most maps. On the other hand we got the terran with an booming eco, superior tech (mb banshee cloak on the way) and helions in dropships. Enemy zerg got his expansion for sure.
Kinda hard to come back from here.
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Nice to see some discussion about PZ, I'm playing this combo too(#1 in my division master), and I find it very strong.
Here is my point of view about 2v2 : If there's a zerg (zz, zt or zp), it's all about early game and micro. Some people were talking about speedlings/hellion, I were struggling vs this until I went for 11 gate into 4 gate (you skip zealot to do a normal 4 gate but it comes sooner, 10-15~sec, so in time for hellion). Then its just about wall, on common map i can wall the entrance or I just do a nexus wall and finish it with the 4 gate and my stalker. Then I don't agree with post earlier, when you have 4 warpgate with stalker and baneling protecting you (or roaches), your counter push finish the game before tank or banshee. (as long as you dont lose stalker and increase your army while pokeing its just a matter of time until you win (and here's the main role of zerg -> protect stalker with baneling, I see many zerg going all the way agressive with baneling and everytime we win against them, because i just focus them down and poke while increasing our army until final clash)).
Then about mirror match, I saw some people talking about 3gate robo or macro or shit like that. Excuse me, but if you look at the state of PvP it's : small ramp ? you can hold 4g without doing 4g (with 3 and then tech). big ramp ? 4g. Look taldarim pvp, try to do somethings else than 4g and you'll lose. But we're in 2v2 so if you do that, your teammate is alone 1v2 and is destroyed then it's 1v2. So there's nothing more effective than 4g/ling baneling IMO (if they photons or anything you can just go ahead in macro and tech, or just break it with bust).
The only problem for me is macro game vs T/X, tank/marine + anythings is so strong if you don't have a economy edge or smthing like that. yeah you can do broodlords, but well how do you protect broodlords ? you don't have vickings. Atm the only solution we have found is some kind of dt contain into macro advantage and colossus/corruptor or blink stalker/infestor, but if they turtle and wait for deathball
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I've just been watching some games from the Prodigy team star league 2. Destiny and col.Minigun as a ZP team. They didn't win all there games and all those that they did win were long macro games which relied on mass collosus and sentries for force fields and mostly roach infestor. There were some pretty epic army clashes in those games, diffinitly worth watching
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